Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DavemanCozy]

Bombs are increadible for combos at any percent, restricting air or ground space, edge-guards, ledge traps, recovery and mix up.

The traps with bombs are the scary thing I find with Samus. They may not look very different but the more instant explosion time they have when touched (compared to S4) makes a big difference.

 

[meleebrawler]

I would like to touch on a couple things because while you are correct Hero wouldn't be necessarily dry when he runs out of MP, dehydrated assuredly but not dry. Assuming that the spells work in a similar fashion to how they do in DQ, Hero would have at least Zoom for a recovery option and Psyche Up to make his next attack stronger, this is because both of these do not cost MP. However the problem Hero will encounter will be with Zoom's linearity and Psyche Up's high startup (As seen in the trailer when he uses Bounce, he activated it while Bounce was still in effect, which is how it's probably supposed to be used) is being extremely predictable as soon as he runs out of MP. Zoom looks especially spikable and Psyche Up will only finish when the opponent isn't on the stage because otherwise they'll interrupt it easily.

Between Robin and Hero, Robin seems much more reliable for controlling space and applying pressure in neutral. Hero will be much more potent at the start, but if he can only use a few spells then he needs to make those spells worthwhile. Using the same spell repeatedly aside from maybe Oomph doesn't seem viable as it will just drain his MP. If Hero is done correctly then he might just have the highest skill floor and ceiling in the game. MP punishes players who repeatedly use spells by taking away the ability to use them. Hero mains will need to have critical decision making skills if they want to bring out Hero's full potential.

Psyche Up costs 17 MP, you can see it in the one clip where we see the menu.

 

[Rizen]

I agree is upper mid tier and 's lower high tier. IDK much about .

The thing about Ultimate is you can know a MU but not know the MU on a higher level. This has happened to me several times, like when a really good Yoshi player beat me even though I'd beaten several Yoshis before. I didn't know how to fight his Yoshi but later beat him at another tournament after adapting. Not to detract from Sparg0's performance but I think this was the case with his Cloud. Similarly people have yet to figure out Leo's Joker. It will happen.

Don't get me wrong, Sparg0's amazing for a kid that age and will continue to do great things. He and Zackray are looking to be the next MKLeos.

 

[Sunredo]

Psyche Up costs 17 MP, you can see it in the one clip where we see the menu.

Then I'll take back what I said about him not being completely dry, Zoom in the recent DQ games doesn't cost MP but if they have it use MP here then that makes the resource management all the more crucial. We'll have to see but I'd imagine recoveries are going to be around 10 MP barring Kaswoosh.

 

[Lore]

Charge Shot is ultra busted. Tbh, most Samus players that I've seen at the lower or mid levels still use it like S4 charge shot.

Phan7om recently said that top representation is bigger than any buff or patch, and I agree with that 1000%. Leo using Gun made a bunch of mid level Joker players realize "oh wait, this move is godlike," so maybe top Samus rep will make people realize the same about Charge Shot. The move is SO gross, dude.

-signed, your resident b-button specialist

One thing I'm never sure about on Samus is how much I should value fully charging Charge Shot vs just shooting it. Any insights on that?

She does seem very solid in this game, much moreso than 4.

 

[Rizen]

One thing I'm never sure about on Samus is how much I should value fully charging Charge Shot vs just shooting it. Any insights on that?

She does seem very solid in this game, much moreso than 4.

I don't play Samus but have a theory that she could get a lot of chip damage over the match by walling with uncharged shots. They're only 31f total, which is extremely spammable, moreso than YL's fire arrows. Then after launching the opponent she could charge up a shot.

On that note, I like Light's use of lasers with Fox; he builds up a lot of extra free damage over a game by using them.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Samus is absolutely amazing in this game. Not top tier, but definitely high tier. Her main difficulty competitively is lack of representation and a complex neutral.

By complex neutral I mean that you need a large amount of matchup knowledge because optimal options are not identical one character to the next. Simple example is pichu requires a lot more bombs and ganon loses to super missile. Her combos are sick but they require similar precision as to Ken because if you fail reversals can get you hurt.


Super missiles are hilariously strong. One super missile causes enough shield damage for combo and kill options to automatically poke. And if the super missile hits it likewise has extensive combo and kill options.

Bombs are increadible for combos at any percent, restricting air or ground space, edge-guards, ledge traps, recovery and mix up.

Charge shot is damn near busted. Combos into other starters notably grab and kill options, particularly pivot slide f-smash. Offers wave bounce and b-reverse movement options, cancels into z-air, edge guards, kills and makes you coffee.


One of the best Up-b OOS, a tether grab - which for the first time in smash is actually superior to a normal grab, fastest disjointed excellent f-smash, 3rd strongest b-air, 5th stongest n-air, combo up-air, disjointed f-air, poking and combo z-air. The list goes on.

I made the "Samus community patch request" video for Smash 4 Samus. I had no illusions, a bad opinion of the character, she had tons of problems in 4. Things improved with patches and she eventually was more or less mid-tier by the end of 4. Everything changed in Ultimate, character is great bordering on fantastic.

Super missile shield damage lost most of its utility when the projectile / shield changes hit, you used to be able to follow up with a charge shot for a free shield break but often times the shield is left intact now.

A lot of characters require complex MU knowledge to use and operate, Samus / DS simply has fewer winning MU's when compared to high / top tier characters and overall in her own character archetype she is outdone by multiple other picks. That's her biggest problem, she's outshined in pretty much every department and it's easy to get stuck fishing for kills with charge shot reads if you push people into too high a % range.

 

[meleebrawler]

Then I'll take back what I said about him not being completely dry, Zoom in the recent DQ games doesn't cost MP but if they have it use MP here then that makes the resource management all the more crucial. We'll have to see but I'd imagine recoveries are going to be around 10 MP barring Kaswoosh.

Robin's Elwind refreshes faster than any other of his tools, I'm fairly certain Hero will have at least one recovery spell with a very low cost.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I agree is upper mid tier and 's lower high tier. IDK much about .

So, there is like no real difference between this chars in terms of viability?
Dunno, I used these terms before as well but reading this from someone else, it looks just made-up .

However I have yet to see Sparg0 doing well at multiple instances. One tournament is good but overhyping is also something that's done too fast.

 

[Iridium]

I agree is upper mid tier and 's lower high tier. IDK much about .

The thing about Ultimate is you can know a MU but not know the MU on a higher level. This has happened to me several times, like when a really good Yoshi player beat me even though I'd beaten several Yoshis before. I didn't know how to fight his Yoshi but later beat him at another tournament after adapting. Not to detract from Sparg0's performance but I think this was the case with his Cloud. Similarly people have yet to figure out Leo's Joker. It will happen.

Don't get me wrong, Sparg0's amazing for a kid that age and will continue to do great things. He and Zackray are looking to be the next MKLeos.

is a bit polarizing to me. Thunder works even better as a KO move, due to increased knockback on all variations. Arcfire makes for a good neutral tool that can initiate combos even better, and faster Levin aerials further allows a wall of disjoints. Jumpsquat buffs prove very beneficial for the latter. Elwind being able to be aimed horizontally gives Robin a less linear recovery. A few good strengths here.

At the same time, poor mobility leaves him at a disadvantage against characters who can close space in very quickly, such as . Starting off with the Bronze Sword means Robin has to start a few seconds without such powerful disjoints. Checkmate isn't as effective as before, Arcthunder has a tighter window to follow up from, and his grab is still pretty bad compared to other characters, having had more endlag added on already. Arcfire can even be cancelled out by other hitboxes.

I can see him as a mid tier as best, but I think his speed limitations hold him back a bit. New KO options do exist however, yet at the cost of a few old ones, and his most effective tools weakened.

 

[Terotrous]

Samus is absolutely amazing in this game. Not top tier, but definitely high tier. Her main difficulty competitively is lack of representation and a complex neutral.

Personally, I feel like the difference between upper mid and high tier lies in matchup spread, and I'm not really confident enough in some of the more obscure matchups to feel comfortable saying that she is definitively high tier. I will say though that I feel like she has a lot of even matchups, including against good characters. For example, I think Samus vs Lucina is even, which is significant because that's a problem matchup for many characters. When I play Samus, I feel like I always have the tools to win if I play the matchup correctly, but it's rarely an easy win vs good players (ie, I don't think she has too many significantly advantageous matchups).

I dabbled casually in Samus starting from a little before the Melee -> Brawl transition and I have to say Ultimate's version of her feels leagues smoother than any prior entry. Like, in 4, I hated her nair and could never get it to work right. But in Ultimate I'm smacking faces with it regularly? I really don't understand what changed there. Startup frames I guess?

I feel like Samus just works in this game. She feels like a complete character in ways that she never did before, not even in Melee (there she's more of a gimmick character, though it's a pretty good gimmick). Like it's nice that her multihit moves actually link properly now, and Charge Shot feels appropriately powerful for the investment you put into building it. Being able to charge in the air is great too, and I feel like she benefits from the overall system changes more than most (most notably having a good disadvantage state is quite valuable in this game, though having access to her good tilts out of run is also nice).

Phan7om recently said that top representation is bigger than any buff or patch, and I agree with that 1000%.

I'm also definitely on board with this. Like come on ESAM, Samus is finally a good character and you haven't even touched her in Ult? Where's the unending faith that you had in this character from 4?

One thing I'm never sure about on Samus is how much I should value fully charging Charge Shot vs just shooting it. Any insights on that?

It probably depends on the matchup. Against speedier characters, I always go for full charge and hold it as long as necessary, because you're not going to get that many opportunities to fire it, when you do get the chance you want it to hurt like hell. Against slower characters I fire more partially charged or uncharged shots.

A lot of characters require complex MU knowledge to use and operate, Samus / DS simply has fewer winning MU's when compared to high / top tier characters and overall in her own character archetype she is outdone by multiple other picks. That's her biggest problem, she's outshined in pretty much every department and it's easy to get stuck fishing for kills with charge shot reads if you push people into too high a % range.

I feel that Samus's biggest problem is what I call "honest character syndrome". Samus doesn't have some super braindead way to take stocks / close out games, you kinda just have to make the read or get the punish with charge shot or find that clutch back air or dtilt. I feel like she has the tools to win almost any matchup, but you're not going to get that read all the time, that's just the nature of the game. Granted, this has always been my style in Smash (In Smash 4, I played Yoshi, who IMO also works this way, except he uses DownB instead of Charge Shot or hits clutch up airs), but the very high tier characters are generally defined by more consistent ways to close out stocks, generally coming from safe, fast, or otherwise strong neutral options that lead into kills. I certainly wouldn't say she struggles to kill, but it's not trivial.

 

[KirbySquad101]

However I have yet to see Sparg0 doing well at multiple instances. One tournament is good but overhyping is also something that's done too fast.

Tbf, Sparg0 did get top 64 at Genesis 6 and got 25th at Prime Saga, so it's not like he's completely come out of nowhere; I do get what you're saying, though. We'll have to see if he's got staying power like Raito or Fatality.

 

[Rizen]

This thread IS dead

I got 3rd of 24 at my local. If anyone wants to hear about MUs tag me. Having secondaries is something that could benefit anyone. In a game this balanced and prediction based, mixing up one's play style is important. I played a Ness who had beaten my YL before (it's a bad MU) and ended up beating him with Link. Even though Link doesn't win against Ness, imo it's even, I was able to take him to Battlefield and press Link's advantage with platform pressure. You see players like Tweek toss out secondaries and it's a good strategy. Tweek's Wario is by far his best character but Roy's how he beat Marrs. Even top tiers could benefit from mixing it up, especially after the nerfs that lowered the power level of top tier. You don't want the opponent to download you; this is even more important than having a good MU.

 

[Rocketjay8]

This thread IS dead

I got 3rd of 24 at my local. If anyone wants to hear about MUs tag me. Having secondaries is something that could benefit anyone. In a game this balanced and prediction based, mixing up one's play style is important. I played a Ness who had beaten my YL before (it's a bad MU) and ended up beating him with Link. Even though Link doesn't win against Ness, imo it's even, I was able to take him to Battlefield and press Link's advantage with platform pressure. You see players like Tweek toss out secondaries and it's a good strategy. Tweek's Wario is by far his best character but Roy's how he beat Marrs. Even top tiers could benefit from mixing it up, especially after the nerfs that lowered the power level of top tier. You don't want the opponent to download you; this is even more important than having a good MU.

Eh, I wouldn't really say that this thread is dead. I mean, It's only been a day since KirbySquad101 posted on this thread.

Now if you really want to see dead threads, look at the majority of the Ultimate character discussions.

 

[Allkings]

what is the opinion on lately and ?

edit: what about because zero seem really happy about his buff

 

[DungeonMaster]

Super missile shield damage lost most of its utility when the projectile / shield changes hit, you used to be able to follow up with a charge shot for a free shield break but often times the shield is left intact now.
A lot of characters require complex MU knowledge to use and operate, Samus / DS simply has fewer winning MU's when compared to high / top tier characters and overall in her own character archetype she is outdone by multiple other picks. That's her biggest problem, she's outshined in pretty much every department and it's easy to get stuck fishing for kills with charge shot reads if you push people into too high a % range.

Deluge you can be forgiven for thinking that since it's common opinion and knowledge but the character is much better when you study her.
She damages shields and then pokes or kills. That's her design.

First off the super-missile shield damage was NOT nerfed, explicitly the super missile was kept at the same shield damage level. Once the shield is damaged by even a single SM you can poke with either up-air, a combo option, d-air, a combo and kill combo option, or a rising n-air specifically, which kills tall characters readily.
You can see this timestamped link here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvZoUu3QRP4&t=505s
And repeatedly over the matchup guide set here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdu0gzdY70Y&t=0s

So that's the purpose of SM, and a big part of the character design. There's no other character designed this way. She's very unique in her design.

You can look over the rest of my combo video (you really should otherwise we can't talk about options), or look at the smashboards thread here: https://smashboards.com/threads/the-complete-combo-and-string-list-archive.464634/post-22804937

Fishing for a CS read still definitely exists but you can readily use much smaller charge states to land a pivot slide f-smash. Bomb combos are also easy as pie, borderline magic. If the opponent does not respect Samus' options, it hurts and kills a LOT.

 

[NotLiquid]

what is the opinion on lately and ?

Sonic is a mid-tier held back by moves that don't function the way they should.

Meta Knight is Training Mode Combos: The Character.

 

[Lore]

This thread IS dead

I got 3rd of 24 at my local. If anyone wants to hear about MUs tag me. Having secondaries is something that could benefit anyone. In a game this balanced and prediction based, mixing up one's play style is important. I played a Ness who had beaten my YL before (it's a bad MU) and ended up beating him with Link. Even though Link doesn't win against Ness, imo it's even, I was able to take him to Battlefield and press Link's advantage with platform pressure. You see players like Tweek toss out secondaries and it's a good strategy. Tweek's Wario is by far his best character but Roy's how he beat Marrs. Even top tiers could benefit from mixing it up, especially after the nerfs that lowered the power level of top tier. You don't want the opponent to download you; this is even more important than having a good MU.

It probably won't be slow for too much longer lol, we are mostly chilling and waiting for major tournament results and patches.

Definitely agreed on secondaries. It's why I (and the legion of other players out there) have a pocket Lucina.

 

[The_Bookworm]

what is the opinion on lately and ?

edit: what about because zero seem really happy about his buff

I think all three of these characters are solid mid tiers.


Sonic has a lot of good things about him, but are held back by having numerous issues with multi-hits (most notably up air and Spin Charge). It is not Bayo levels of moves not working properly, but it does harm him regardless. If they fix those issues via patches, then the character will be moving up to new heights.

Diddy got quite a bit of his SSB4 strengths returning after 3.1.0., rising him signififcantly from his previous below-average at best position before the buffs. However, Banana is still not as good as before (aside from the platform infinite) and his reach is still below average in comparison to everyone else's. If they at least give forward and back air more reach, then I for now will be content with him.

MK is in a weird place. You have his solo mains still doing somewhat well (not to the same extent as Sonic and Diddy, but still), but most of his best results from SSB4 came from him being used as a secondary courtesy of Abadango and MkLeo. Granted that both Aba and Leo pretty much stopped using him towards the end of SSB4, but they still provided him the best results regardless.

In the transition, MK got a lot of his move speed and hitboxes back from Brawl, but in exchange for his advantage state (aka latter combos) to be harder to gain access to. I think he also has a small case of Sheik-itus where his damage output is now not as impressive in comparison to the rest of the cast. If they made his aerials more damaging and maybe make Shuttle Loop a bit stronger, the character will be fine.

 

[Routa]

One thing I hear Samus players "complain" about is the change to her DA and the change from more ground based game into aggressive aerials. Jab no longer works as a test poke and higher overall mobility makes ftilt poking far harder than before. Her disadvantage has also got worse 'cause of the changes to ad and increases to everyone's mobility. While changes to her moves were nice and all I see her as a worse character overall in comparison to Sm4sh variation.

While Diddy buffs were indeed great and his popularity has increased (some ex Diddy mains are thinking about picking him up) he still struggles due to poor OoS game, being more ground based character in a air based game and bellow average killgame. Not being able to seal the stock from Snake or being able to edgeguard him well in this game is a major problem. That is the reason why I don't see him being better than your average character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

higher overall mobility makes ftilt poking far harder than before.

F-tilt poking isn't all that good on Samus in SSB4. It is now at least better than before thanks to dash canceling being a thing and f-tilts direct improvements (its damage output is now more consistent and its sourspot deals more knockback).

Her disadvantage has also got worse 'cause of the changes to ad and increases to everyone's mobility.

Her disadvantage being "worse" is an overall change with pretty much the rest of the cast. Her's is arguably better relative to the cast due to her slightly faster fall speed, notably faster fast fall speed, and the improvements to her bombs.

While changes to her moves were nice and all I see her as a worse character overall in comparison to Sm4sh variation.

Samus at this point is universally considered to be notably better than in SSB4 (contrary to what people thought about her in the e3 demo). Her moveset is overall much more consistent thanks to the great buffs all around. The nerfs to her key moves does require her to shift her playstyle to be more defense than going all guns-a-blazing spamming dash attack, which only worked to an extent (emphasis why she was mid tier at best in SSB4).

 

[NeonNote]

What are people’s thoughts on right now?

 

[DunnoBro]

Now if you really want to see dead threads, look at the majority of the Ultimate character discussions.

Too soon.

 

[The_Bookworm]

What are people’s thoughts on right now?

Still strong imo. KO'ing is a little bit harder, but their ridiculous aerial pressure, damage output, and edgeguarding (slightly nerfed, but still very good). Most of their most potent strengths are left untouched.

Might still be a top 5 contender imo.

 

[Allkings]

apart from , who has the worst recoveries in the game ?( some say but i really dont think so)

 

[Lacrimosa]

(with no limit)



(highly dependant on Nana)

/
(thanks to the aformentioned nerf)

Guess that's pretty much it for characters with a rather bad recovery. The others are probably better and this topic is boring already (but also the best recoveries are pretty ovious)
However, what about Olimar's recovery? It got nerfed but how notable is that nerf in actual gameplay?

 

[The_Bookworm]

apart from , who has the worst recoveries in the game ?( some say but i really dont think so)

Some of the recoveries I can think of is . These three probably doesn't need an explanation on why I think so.


's recovery can be surprisingly versatile, but you must have to use it very intelligently to use it at its fullest. One look at Shoyo James' offstage gameplay is the proof of this. If you are not smart when using his recovery, then his recovery is constantly meme'd on for a reason (alongside Cloud's). His recovery is overall mediocre, but definitely not a "worse" recovery contender.

ESAM went as far as to say that 's recovery may be the second worse in the entire game, but similarly to Chrom's, if you use his recovery intelligently, you can make it back more than you think (one look at Elegant's gameplay in both SSB4 and Ultimate is the proof of that). Luigi's recovery is also overall mediocre, but I don't think it is a "worse" recovery contender either.

(with no limit)



(highly dependant on Nana)

/
(thanks to the aformentioned nerf)

Guess that's pretty much it for characters with a rather bad recovery. The others are probably better and this topic is boring already (but also the best recoveries are pretty ovious)
However, what about Olimar's recovery? It got nerfed but how notable is that nerf in actual gameplay?

Wolf's recovery isn't that much different from before.

The Olimar recovery nerf in the end turned out to be the least notable of Olimar's changes from 3.1.0. You are pretty much always returning back to the stage before the reduced fuel becomes a problem. The fuel itself recharges rather quickly. I haven't seen an instance where the nerf actually mattered in a match so far.

 

[Roguewolf]

(with no limit)



(highly dependant on Nana)

/
(thanks to the aformentioned nerf)

Guess that's pretty much it for characters with a rather bad recovery. The others are probably better and this topic is boring already (but also the best recoveries are pretty ovious)
However, what about Olimar's recovery? It got nerfed but how notable is that nerf in actual gameplay?

Wolfs recovery struggles dont get me wrong it struggles but it is not as bad as any of the other charachters mentioned its still threatening enough and can travel a decent amount it's not horrible like some of the above mentioned

 

[Lacrimosa]

Well, recoveries in this game are pretty strong.
Wolf's is still threatening but travels not as far as Fox/Falco's. Although maybe you're right and Fox/Falco should take his spot. Don't get me wrong, they are probably still decent but the entire cast can recovery fairly well.

 

[Roguewolf]

Well, recoveries in this game are pretty strong.
Wolf's is still threatening but travels not as far as Fox/Falco's. Although maybe you're right and Fox/Falco should take his spot. Don't get me wrong, they are probably still decent but the entire cast can recovery fairly well.

Yes but the ones you highlited already struggle more than fox falcon or wolf and are worse so you're list is pretty accurate except wolf if you think one of the starfox recoveryss is that bad though the worst recovery of the bunch is falco firebird it dosent go as far as foxes and isn't as threatening as wolfs

 

[ProfessorVincent]

(with no limit)



(highly dependant on Nana)

/
(thanks to the aformentioned nerf)

Guess that's pretty much it for characters with a rather bad recovery. The others are probably better and this topic is boring already (but also the best recoveries are pretty ovious)
However, what about Olimar's recovery? It got nerfed but how notable is that nerf in actual gameplay?

I find Joker's to be worse than Wolf and Bowser Jr. He only has a bit of vertical gain the first time he uses his tether, and he falls like a rock. If you hit him once offstage he's probably dead.

 

[Gérard Majax]

Jr's recovery is actually reasonably good, mostly thanks to kart dash and reasonable aerials to cover yourself. It's not really hard to recover horizontally.
Vertical recovery can be a bit tricky, but at least he can mix it up with the smash4 airdodge and hammer. It's definitely doable, and so is 2-framing him, but having some way to mix it up makes it already better than someone like ike imo.

 

[NeonNote]

Still strong imo. KO'ing is a little bit harder, but their ridiculous aerial pressure, damage output, and edgeguarding (slightly nerfed, but still very good). Most of their most potent strengths are left untouched.

Might still be a top 5 contender imo.

After getting used to them post patch, I feel the same. I feel the forward air nerf is negligible as it’s only about a 9% increase in damage you need for it to kill I believe, but I don’t know about the back throw. Although it was one of their least used kill moves before. Do you think the turnip nerf was significant?

 

[DunnoBro]

(with no limit)



(highly dependant on Nana)

/
(thanks to the aformentioned nerf)

Guess that's pretty much it for characters with a rather bad recovery. The others are probably better and this topic is boring already (but also the best recoveries are pretty ovious)
However, what about Olimar's recovery? It got nerfed but how notable is that nerf in actual gameplay?

Jr, Wolf, and Chrom have very real options to mix things up, and fight their way back. Often avoiding ledge traps due to them.

Jr especially. Lots of opportunities to recover high and reversal with little risk.

Belmonts are also in a weird place since, while their recovery is certainly bad; You need to commit offstage, and risk losing stage control against these absolute ledge trapping monsters.

DK, Doc, and Cloud have trouble even ledge snapping. Which makes them universally easier to edgeguard throughout all their disadvantage states.

ESAM went as far as to say that 's recovery may be the second worse in the entire game, but similarly to Chrom's, if you use his recovery intelligently, you can make it back more than you think (one look at Elegant's gameplay in both SSB4 and Ultimate is the proof of that). Luigi's recovery is also overall mediocre, but I don't think it is a "worse" recovery contender either.

Nah, I think Luigi has the best argument for second worst.

Unlike Chrom, Luigi can't reversal well without misfire, recover high to avoid ledge traps (Which he already really sucks at dealing with due to poor options out of ledge jump), or fight back to stage with fat disjoints.

While it's true Luigi isn't getting gimped that often, it's largely due to the fact the options available to him are so linear and few that he's softly forced into situations which lead to him being straight killed.

His ledge options are pure trash, too. Largely due to said poor recovery/air speed really closing ledge jump/rising options off to him. Even ganon can threaten ledge jump choke/wizard's foot. And chrom can counter/upb/fair. Luigi can maybe cyclone. But this requires his dj and he's dead if it gets stuffed, shielded, or just whiff punished.

It's probably between him and Doc. Though Doc's reversal options in pills/dair/cyclone/sjp give him an edge.

 

[Click5]

Diddy is still not a good character, the patch didn't change a whole lot.

His recovery pre patch wasn't actually that bad, as far as distance gained, and horizontally it was very good. The buff to his up B is decent of course, but it has less to do with his recovery and more to do with the fact that he can go a little lower to edge guard now, as sealing stocks had always been his problem in Ultimate. It still is.

Getting gimped out of barrels still exists and it sucks, which is where the perceived issue with Diddy's recovery comes from.

Up smash killing power buff was marginal, like 5-10% at best. Your dtilt>upsmash kill confirm is still in like the 150-160% range

Dash attack is actually worse now, as characters are falling out of it regularly

Gun buff was pointless, it's still a slow projectile that loses to everything

Upair FAF reduction is nice for sure, but its problem, along with the entirety of Diddy's kit is that his hit boxes suck. They are legit tiny and inconsistent. The best characters in the game generally have god tier monstrous hit boxes, and Diddy cannot compete with them. Even a trade at best is a net loss, because of his problem with sealing stocks. 3.1 didn't do anything to address the real issues with Diddy.

The Zero hype is just him being a goofball. A lot of the stuff he was excited about existed pre patch, or isn't actually true (he freaked out over da>dair). It just shows he didn't really put a lot of time into Diddy beforehand. Even then though, he was 3 stocking most people online with the monkey. I wish he would shut up though, so maybe Diddy can get some more buffs.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Didn't he get a change to plunger hitbox/angle? Elegant seems to be using it pretty well as a landing/ledge trap too.

Forgot about that. Also, fully invincible cyclone (a glitch but a somewhat practical one) was patched out.

Also, on the topic of recovery, I think the worst recoveries in the game can be organized into a few groups.

Horrible Recoveries: (Sopo)

Pretty Bad Recoveries: (No Arsene)

Poor but Usable Recoveries: and maybe (post patch)

 

[Rizen]

ESAM went as far as to say that 's recovery may be the second worse in the entire game, but similarly to Chrom's, if you use his recovery intelligently, you can make it back more than you think (one look at Elegant's gameplay in both SSB4 and Ultimate is the proof of that). Luigi's recovery is also overall mediocre, but I don't think it is a "worse" recovery contender either.
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I'd take Luigi's recovery over Ganon's any day. At least Luigi gets distance with upB and doesn't freefall from sideB.

What are people’s thoughts on right now?

They're in a similar position to Wolf; the little nickle and dime nerfs add up. Probably not enough to change many MUs but they're more honest now.

 

[Tri Knight]

This thread IS dead

I got 3rd of 24 at my local. If anyone wants to hear about MUs tag me. Having secondaries is something that could benefit anyone. In a game this balanced and prediction based, mixing up one's play style is important. I played a Ness who had beaten my YL before (it's a bad MU) and ended up beating him with Link. Even though Link doesn't win against Ness, imo it's even, I was able to take him to Battlefield and press Link's advantage with platform pressure. You see players like Tweek toss out secondaries and it's a good strategy. Tweek's Wario is by far his best character but Roy's how he beat Marrs. Even top tiers could benefit from mixing it up, especially after the nerfs that lowered the power level of top tier. You don't want the opponent to download you; this is even more important than having a good MU.

I cant stress this enough man. Been saying this since after the first month Ultimate came out. For a game with 70+ characters, this game is more balanced than all the other Smash games. There are so many viable characters that tier lists from top players are always left and right. I think we've also had the furthest spread of characters placing in top 8-64 that we've ever seen. You'd literally be gimping yourself if you ran without the secondaries.

And congrats on the placement

 

[Terotrous]

One thing I hear Samus players "complain" about is the change to her DA and the change from more ground based game into aggressive aerials.

I complain about this for Ult as a whole!

That being said, for Samus's gameplan of kind of "weave in and out and punish whiffed buttons" I feel like having a worse Dash Attack doesn't matter that much because in most situations where I would have Dash Attacked before I now just grab and you get comparable or better reward from it.

Her disadvantage has also got worse 'cause of the changes to ad and increases to everyone's mobility.

This is kind of another system-wide change. Everyone's disadvantage is worse compared to Smash4 thanks to air dodge being vastly worse, but because of this, if you have any tools to help in disadvantage state these are now much more valuable, so I feel that Samus's disadvantage is now relatively much better compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Rizen]

This is kind of another system-wide change. Everyone's disadvantage is worse compared to Smash4 thanks to air dodge being vastly worse, but because of this, if you have any tools to help in disadvantage state these are now much more valuable, so I feel that Samus's disadvantage is now relatively much better compared to the rest of the cast.

^I'd argue it's on a case by case basis. Jigglypuff's disadvantage certainly is worse with the new airdodges. Ness on the other hand doesn't have to use PKT to get to the ledge. I think the new directional airdodges helped heavies like DK get out of bad situations. And of course anyone who's upB doesn't cause freefalling likes the new dodges, they get an extra recovery boost, like Mega Man.