COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Alopex]

Weakening DI is just another way of nerfing defense.

At least dash speed increase adds to offense without taking away from defense.

At this point, nerfing defense to buff offense is like taking from the poor to give to the rich... just stop it...

And this is coming from someone who was vehemently against Brawl's ultra strong defense.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Weakening DI will only benefit the fast characters as far as I'm concerned. The larger characters tend to make up for their lack of combos by their long reaching attacks that eliminate the ability to avoid followups using DI.


Also, feel free to put me in for testing Wario, Game & Watch, Donkey Kong, Rob, and Luigi.

 

[goodoldganon]

Weakening DI is just another way of nerfing defense.

At least dash speed increase adds to offense without taking away from defense.

At this point, nerfing defense to buff offense is like taking from the poor to give to the rich... just stop it...

And this is coming from someone who was vehemently against Brawl's ultra strong defense.

This

The offense is a lot stronger now. Defense still might be a little strong, but I'm ok with that since it is very possible to mount an offense. Nerfing DI would be very bad IMO.

 

[Alopex]

Defense still might be a little strong.

Not anymore, now that we have the code to make PS'ing harder.

 

[matt4300]

uh hate to say this but i found out that the code that was seriously ****ing with ness was that code you guys are testing ... be ness or lucas and do a pk thunder and the game will freeze.

 

[Alopex]

The shield windows code? The one that kupo put up not long ago?

If you say so, I'll go test it.

EDIT:
I just tested the PKTs with the shield window code, Matt, and I had no problems whatsoever. If that was the code you were referring to, then I don't know what went wrong on your end.


@Jiang

After testing 4 frame PS and retesting 3, I'm actually stuck in between 3 and 4.

3 might actually feel better.

But I don't know, once all the codes are in, Brawl+ will be a decently fast game, and 4 might work better then.

If nothing really changes much when everything is running full throttle, then 3 seems to be the way to go for sure.

 

[leafgreen386]

uh hate to say this but i found out that the code that was seriously ****ing with ness was that code you guys are testing ... be ness or lucas and do a pk thunder and the game will freeze.

matt, you were saying that you were having troubles with your wii earlier ._.

And a freeze upon pkt is one of the things you mentioned running into problems with. Forgetful much? Have you confirmed yet that none of the glitches you were experiencing exist when you boot brawl regularly?

As for PSing, wasn't it four frames for physical attacks in melee? I think that would be a good enough nerf for it. Granted, brawl is a slower game, but that's cutting the window in half from where it is now.

 

[SGX]

@ Shield up and down values:

NO! Seriously, NO!
With the PS code we have all we need. We are DONE nerfing defense.

Seriously. We've been boosting offense since day 1 and the offense now is MORE than capable of overcoming the defense, and the super easy PS was the last thing we needed to tweak.

No making shields slower to come up and go down. We've gone far enough. Seriously. Shielding should be FAST, it's a defense mechanism!

I'm going to go find that post by Mookie where he talks about how the balance between defense and offense getting too skewed.

This.

Are we TOTALLY trying to screw players with defensive playstyles here, or what? Shield stun is plenty. Offense has been improved so much already. Defense is still good at this point, but not TOO good. I think it should stay like this.

Also, I definitely think increasing dash speed is a better alternative to weakening DI. If we get an increased air speed code, we will definitely not need weakened DI.

 

[Famous]

Oh? Sweet. Time to make a CSS using all the characters now. =)

I'll also try and get a pic up of mine later.

@shell: I'd guess that it just replaces zelda/shiek with zelda

Lol, leafgreen evolved into hacker...No more TDS

 

[MookieRah]

I'm not going to advocate any power shielding reductions UNTIL it becomes a problem. I've said that for a while now and I'm sticking to it. You guys ultimately don't know if it will ever become a problem and you are going to make it nearly impossible to actually power shield a melee attack. People are telling me that Brawl+ is not Melee cause I want a speed increase, yet you guys are messing with mechanics that were NEVER broken to begin with.

@Near perfect shield
Near perfect shield is borderline useless because there is no way to identify if you actually landed a near perfect shield. Most of the time if people land one it will be in an attempt to powershield, or they would do it accidentally. In the case of a missed power shield, that would mainly only be applicable for predictable approaches, so that would just make those "power hits" not a guaranteed free hit. The problem with near perfect shield still lies with the fact that nobody knows if they got it or not, so many near perfect shields will be wasted anyways.

I honestly think this is a good thing, cause if your offense is that predictable then you deserve to not get away with a freebie attack every time. I'm sure people could master this, as they would get pretty good at power shielding and could probably at least land a near perfect, but I don't think near perfect would devastate the offensive game.

 

[shanus]

Can someone post a gct that is similar to kupo's with a dash speed increase code of 10% and hitstun of 9%? Shieldstun at 11/22/5, and no changes to the powershield window or any of that, 1 buffer & 50% hitlag, fastfall or downgrav at 1.1 or 1.2, either is fine? If you could, I'd love you. Once I'm back at school I'll be able to use a roommates pc, but for now I am stuck with mah mac.


Also, there is no need to nerf DI or the PS yet, defense has been nerfed plenty already. We are being too heavyhanded with our seasonings here

 

[BEES]

I find myself agreeing with Mookie. In fact I would go even further to say I don't want to see any defense nerfs at all. No shield timer, nothing. Remember that there's no spacing maneuver comparable to wavedashing that would help compensate for weak shields. To affect them at all, seems to me, to be giving brute force offense with no thought involved a free pass.

I'd rather see offense buffed to compensate. Faster dash attacks, earlier fastfall window etc, so it's easier to trick the shields and get around them. But if you make bad choices, and the defender makes good ones, they could still punish.

 

[KishPrime]

I stand by the fact that there should be a bit of delay on the shield actions. There was in Melee, and it is still a good idea.

I think that people are overusing these codes still, and that is why you feel like there are too many buffs to offense. The Ship still stands by its very small set of codes with minimal changes. I'll repost with our reasoning.

------------------------------

Hitstun - 9%
This is a code that allows for just a bit more punishment off of initial attacks. It is a definite buff to offense. We didn't want to push it too high or the combos become excessive.

Auto L-Cancel
This reduces lag on attacks, and makes it a bit more feasible to go on the attack.

No delay on Edge Grab
This is a buff to edgeguarding, and allows for an instant drop off the ledge. Oddly enough, it cancels your invulnerability, giving you the choice to either wait for the Brawl timer to expire and keep your invunerability or to immediately drop and lose it.

No tripping
Duh.

Reduced Stale Moves
The code we will post is a small reduction of stale moves. As a concept, stale moves is a poor mechanic that, instead of giving the player balanced options, the developers simply chose to force you to change your moves by drastically reducing their power. While it's a poor mechanic, it always has been a part of Smash on some level, so it was only reduced.

RAWRizard
Selecting a Pokemon will now cause you to keep it the entire battle, with no tiredness. Selecting pure Pokemon Trainer will keep him as normal.

No auto-sweetspot ledges
This is great in every way. It takes skill to recover and also gives you the option to come over the top of the stage if you want.

---------------------------

The reason that you need a delay on shield actions is because the game is still slow. You can see attacks coming relatively fast. You should never be able to instantly block a move, that removes the need for any mental preparation for an attack.

So, rather than artificially increasing the speed of the game with run speed, fall speed, etc, in ways that make it hard for people to make the transition, why not change a mechanic that was obviously bad to begin with and is much easier in the transition to Brawl+? It doesn't change the movement structure, the combo structure, and still has the same balancing effect.

 

[SGX]

I'd definitely rather have things like increased fast fall and dash speed as opposed to a delay on my shield.

If we can achieve the same balance with a faster more responsive game, why not?

 

[shanus]

I stand by the fact that there should be a bit of delay on the shield actions. There was in Melee, and it is still a good idea.

I think that people are overusing these codes still, and that is why you feel like there are too many buffs to offense. The Ship still stands by its very small set of codes with minimal changes. I'll repost with our reasoning.

------------------------------

Hitstun - 9%
This is a code that allows for just a bit more punishment off of initial attacks. It is a definite buff to offense. We didn't want to push it too high or the combos become excessive.

Auto L-Cancel
This reduces lag on attacks, and makes it a bit more feasible to go on the attack.

No delay on Edge Grab
This is a buff to edgeguarding, and allows for an instant drop off the ledge. Oddly enough, it cancels your invulnerability, giving you the choice to either wait for the Brawl timer to expire and keep your invunerability or to immediately drop and lose it.

No tripping
Duh.

Reduced Stale Moves
The code we will post is a small reduction of stale moves. As a concept, stale moves is a poor mechanic that, instead of giving the player balanced options, the developers simply chose to force you to change your moves by drastically reducing their power. While it's a poor mechanic, it always has been a part of Smash on some level, so it was only reduced.

RAWRizard
Selecting a Pokemon will now cause you to keep it the entire battle, with no tiredness. Selecting pure Pokemon Trainer will keep him as normal.

No auto-sweetspot ledges
This is great in every way. It takes skill to recover and also gives you the option to come over the top of the stage if you want.

---------------------------

The reason that you need a delay on shield actions is because the game is still slow. You can see attacks coming relatively fast. You should never be able to instantly block a move, that removes the need for any mental preparation for an attack.

So, rather than artificially increasing the speed of the game with run speed, fall speed, etc, in ways that make it hard for people to make the transition, why not change a mechanic that was obviously bad to begin with and is much easier in the transition to Brawl+? It doesn't change the movement structure, the combo structure, and still has the same balancing effect.

Defense has been nerfed enough with shieldstun at 11/22/5. Give it a try, shieldgrabbing is plausible, but not nearly as much. Increasing ground speed slightly gives more room for tech chasing, makes comboing a bit more skillful and also gives a bit more options. We aren't talking huge changes, something like 10%. Before we throw it away, we should give it a bit more testing.

 

[Deleted member]

wow, scrolling through 200 posts here >_>
anyway, the PS modifier looks nice, but I'm way behind porting stuff, so I'll hope I have it saturday .

 

[MuBa]

I believe games like Smash Bros. works much better with more speed. One of the reasons why people loved Melee is because of this. It adds intensity.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Kish, trust us when we say that simply adjusting fall speed, hitlag, run speed will greatly help the game's overall intensity out. Just ask mr. mooks.

 

[BEES]

I stand by the fact that there should be a bit of delay on the shield actions. There was in Melee, and it is still a good idea.

I was never fond of that mechanic. I have no interest in making the game more like Melee. Rather, I'd like to see it made faster and more offensive, but with its own things to offer. Some people seem content to copy Melee elements, but I'd rather see new elements that result in a similar pace. A fourth smash bros. game, sort of.

So, rather than artificially increasing the speed of the game with run speed, fall speed, etc, in ways that make it hard for people to make the transition, why not change a mechanic that was obviously bad to begin with and is much easier in the transition to Brawl+? It doesn't change the movement structure, the combo structure, and still has the same balancing effect.

I'm fine with changing all of that actually. In fact the more it changes the better. I think it would keep things fresh if combos and balance lined up differently.

 

[kupo15]

Weakening DI is just another way of nerfing defense.

At least dash speed increase adds to offense without taking away from defense.

At this point, nerfing defense to buff offense is like taking from the poor to give to the rich... just stop it...

And this is coming from someone who was vehemently against Brawl's ultra strong defense.

This

The offense is a lot stronger now. Defense still might be a little strong, but I'm ok with that since it is very possible to mount an offense. Nerfing DI would be very bad IMO.

Also, there is no need to nerf DI or the PS yet, defense has been nerfed plenty already. We are being too heavyhanded with our seasonings here

Wft?? Are you serious? o.o

Whats the difference between nerfing DI so that they stay a little closer to yourselves with a smaller hitstun window compared the normal crazy DI when you can run a little faster to catch up to them? How is nerfing DI a more volatile approach than increasing the runs when the outcome of the nerf is the same? So you land a hit on someone only to be congratulated without a follow up because the easy OP DI allowed them to get away.

You have a problem....DI and there are two ways to solve it and you guys chose the band aid over the surgery? So you guys STILL enjoy a heavily overpowered defensive game? I thought this game was about fighting and having a hard time escaping your punishments...not frolicking around about it..

This is just as bad as a 'we don't need shield stun because it destroys the defensive too much" argument

/rant

I'm not saying a lot, just a little tweak because

DI IS A JOKE!!!!!

/rant

 

[Dark Sonic]

In fact I would go even further to say I don't want to see any defense nerfs at all. No shield timer, nothing.

Umm...shield stun. I see shield stun as a must, not just because shielding singlehandedly overpowers any kind of offensive (besides grab based ones, lol), but because it also overshadows other forms of defense. What about rolling, spotdodging, hell just moving out of the way? But why do any of that when you could just shield and have more options available to you in nearly every situation?

edit @ Kupo. You have to keep in mind that not everyone is in favor of offense being more powerful than defense (I personally am) and thus will be hesitant to make any "nerfs" to the defense. In addition, speeding up dashes and airspeed not only gets you the same combos, but adds to fake out techniques (dash dancing is more effective when your dash is faster, ect.) Approaches and cross ups (more characters will be able to land behind their opponent with aerials due to greater aerial speed), edgeguards (although recoveries get buffed as well), and overall the game as a whole will just be played faster.

So those changes are not "bandaids" as you've called them, as they not only increase the combo potential like you're trying to do with your proposal, but they also add depth in other areas of gameplay as well, something that your idea does not. I'd much rather have these codes than have your DI fix.

 

[johe]

Umm...shield stun. I see shield stun as a must, not just because shielding singlehandedly overpowers any kind of offensive (besides grab based ones, lol), but because it also overshadows other forms of defense. What about rolling, spotdodging, hell just moving out of the way? But why do any of that when you could just shield and have more options available to you in nearly every situation?

This

I don't really spotdodge that much, and when I did try to work it into my playstyle, it just ended up being a huge waste of time against everything but grabs.

 

[BEES]

Umm...shield stun. I see shield stun as a must, not just because shielding singlehandedly overpowers any kind of offensive (besides grab based ones, lol), but because it also overshadows other forms of defense. What about rolling, spotdodging, hell just moving out of the way? But why do any of that when you could just shield and have more options available to you in nearly every situation?

Fake them out or get behind them. Shieldgrabs can be gotten around. I care less about shield stun though because wanton shield spamming should be discouraged.

 

[shanus]

Melee has offense just slightly better than defense and it was pretty much perfect that way. With the shieldstun at what it is now, its hard to say which is now better, offense or defense. The reason I'm not for nerfing DI yet kupo is that can you definitely say offense is currently weaker?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Fake them out or get behind them. Shieldgrabs can be gotten around.

Who says they're going to try to shield grab? I'm talking about how they can attack you in the lag of your attack. Very few attacks are "safe on block" in normal brawl. If you land behind me? I just drop my shield and turn around and attack.

Have you ever noticed that most damage is done in brawl on counter attacks? The person approaching is typically at a disadvantage (there are very few exceptions), and the entire game consists of forcing the other player to approach you so that you can make use of the OP defensive system to score damage.

 

[kupo15]

Everyone missed my last edit so Ill post it here

This.

Are we TOTALLY trying to screw players with defensive playstyles here, or what? Shield stun is plenty. Offense has been improved so much already. Defense is still good at this point, but not TOO good. I think it should stay like this.

Also, I definitely think increasing dash speed is a better alternative to weakening DI. If we get an increased air speed code, we will definitely not need weakened DI.

What are you TALKING about defensive playstyles? If you get hit, YOU ARE GOING TO BE DEFENSIVE NO MATTER WHAT!! Nerfing DI affects ONE part of the game directly and another part indirectly. It DIRECTLY affects combos and escaping combos. Once you get hit, the weaker DI doesn't make you go as far so then you can lower hitstun to keep it in check. Tighter combos are when they are a little closer to you AND being pressed for time...NOT chasing everyone around the **** level!

This indirectly affects deaths. A lower hitstun means that you can survive the side blast zones by being able to jump out of hitstun sooner or w/e.

It is NOT nerfing defense the way you guys claim it to be doing!!!!!!!!! You guys are talking about two COMPLETELY different games and mixing them together like they affect each other!!

/rant

 

[shanus]

Everyone missed my last edit so Ill post it here



What are you TALKING about defensive playstyles? If you get hit, YOU ARE GOING TO BE DEFENSIVE NO MATTER WHAT!! Nerfing DI affects ONE part of the game directly and another part indirectly. It DIRECTLY affects combos and escaping combos. Once you get hit, the weaker DI doesn't make you go as far so then you can lower hitstun to keep it in check. Tighter combos are when they are a little closer to you AND being pressed for time...NOT chasing everyone around the **** level!

This indirectly affects deaths. A lower hitstun means that you can survive the side blast zones by being able to jump out of hitstun sooner or w/e.

It is NOT nerfing defense the way you guys claim it to be doing!!!!!!!!! You guys are talking about two COMPLETELY different games and mixing them together like they affect each other!!

/rant

Kupo, read my above post.

 

[Dark Sonic]

What are you TALKING about defensive playstyles? If you get hit, YOU ARE GOING TO BE DEFENSIVE NO MATTER WHAT!! Nerfing DI affects ONE part of the game directly and another part indirectly. It DIRECTLY affects combos and escaping combos. Once you get hit, the weaker DI doesn't make you go as far so then you can lower hitstun to keep it in check. Tighter combos are when they are a little closer to you AND being pressed for time...NOT chasing everyone around the **** level!

This indirectly affects deaths. A lower hitstun means that you can survive the side blast zones by being able to jump out of hitstun sooner or w/e.

It is NOT nerfing defense the way you guys claim it to be doing!!!!!!!!! You guys are talking about two COMPLETELY different games!!

/rant

I'm not worried about nerfing defense at all, but I still don't want this. Because we can get the same benifit (longer combos) by speeding up dash speed an airspeed, while also getting more benefits (see my post above). Sure you have to chase them more, but that just makes the combos more difficult to perform (but still entirely possible).

Oh, and you wouldn't necessarily live longer, because nerfing DI would also nerf survival DI (you wouldn't get sent as high on moves with more horizontal knockback), so any benefit from being able to jump earlier could be counteracted by the fact that you're not traveling as far before hitting the blast zone.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Fake them out or get behind them. Shieldgrabs can be gotten around.

Anything can be gotten around. That's not the point. We've all been "not getting grabbed" for a year now. The fact is that VB's grab game was way too prevalent and took away from other aspects of offense. Hence shield stun.


And as for dash speed, have you people forgotten that characters like CF and Fox can already chain dash attacks with most of our setups? Currently, a character like CF can combo you no matter which direction you DI. You DI away, you get dash attacked. You DI up, you can get chaingrabbed, up tilted, or naired. Increasing dash speed would make this worse. Lowering hitstun to compensate will effect other characters combos as well. We'll always have the more combo oriented characters, but we don't want them OP'd because we want a faster game. Just know what your getting into.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, read my above post.

I did read your post but your not understanding what Im saying. YES! The offense is currently weaker than the defense for the combo game because the DI is too strong. I am reviewing my matches I recorded from two nights ago and I fail to see anything you can actually call a combo because I simply can't get to them before they are out of hitstun. And this is at 10% hitstun mind you. The DI is too strong for being so easy to do that its choking the combo diversity of the game. Nerfing DI a little will only affect this part of the game and nothing else unlike making dashes faster. You complain about DI making offense better than defense throughout the game? You just described faster dashes since it affects both the approach game and combo game but now you have ganon who can get to you faster.

We have a problem with catching up to ppl because the DI is too strong. So instead of actually attacking the source of the problem, you'd rather artificially speed up dashes??

I'm not worried about nerfing defense at all, but I still don't want this. Because we can get the same benifit (longer combos) by speeding up dash speed an airspeed, while also getting more benefits (see my post above). Sure you have to chase them more, but that just makes the combos more difficult to perform (but still entirely possible).

Oh, and you wouldn't necessarily live longer, because nerfing DI would also nerf survival DI (you wouldn't get sent as high on moves with more horizontal knockback), so any benefit from being able to jump earlier could be counteracted by the fact that you're not traveling as far before hitting the blast zone.

So youd rather chase your opponent around the **** stage instead keeping them closer while being pressed for time? Your sonic, you don't need to be any faster. And btw, this is a strong suggestion as an alt to not having a horizontal air increase because I am very skeptical that will even happen

 

[peachfvl]

in the shieldstun v2 code is the formula:

a) (The old_frames_stuned*X+Z)/Y=new_frames_stunned
b) ( The old_frames_stuned*X)+Z/Y=new_frames_stunned

and could you recommend me the values for X,Z,Y plz?

can someone answer me ?

 

[shanus]

I did read your post but your not understanding what Im saying. YES! The offense is currently weaker than the defense for the combo game because the DI is too strong. I am reviewing my matches I recorded from two nights ago and I fail to see anything you can actually call a combo because I simply can't get to them before they are out of hitstun. And this is at 10% hitstun mind you. The DI is too strong for being so easy to do that its choking the combo diversity of the game. Nerfing DI a little will only affect this part of the game and nothing else unlike making dashes faster. You complain about DI making offense better than defense throughout the game? You just described faster dashes since it affects both the approach game and combo game but now you have ganon who can get to you faster.

We have a problem with catching up to ppl because the DI is too strong. So instead of actually attacking the source of the problem, you'd rather artificially speed up dashes??



So youd rather chase your opponent around the **** stage instead keeping them closer while being pressed for time? Your sonic, you don't need to be any faster. And btw, this is a strong suggestion as an alt to not having a horizontal air increase because I am very skeptical that will even happen

Currently I disagree, I have pperformed a lot of pretty nasty combos using the same codeset you are using against real players. I have a friend coming by tonight and all day tomorrow to test with, but I dont think the DI is too strong at the moment.

 

[BEES]

Wft?? Are you serious? o.o

Whats the difference between nerfing DI so that they stay a little closer to yourselves with a smaller hitstun window compared the normal crazy DI when you can run a little faster to catch up to them? How is nerfing DI a more volatile approach than increasing the runs when the outcome of the nerf is the same? So you land a hit on someone only to be congratulated without a follow up because the easy OP DI allowed them to get away.

You have a problem....DI and there are two ways to solve it and you guys chose the band aid over the surgery? So you guys STILL enjoy a heavily overpowered defensive game? I thought this game was about fighting and having a hard time escaping your punishments...not frolicking around about it..

This is just as bad as a 'we don't need shield stun because it destroys the defensive too much" argument

/rant

I'm not saying a lot, just a little tweak because

DI IS A JOKE!!!!!

/rant

Well I think one obvious argument against nerfing DI and for buffing dashes/aerial movement is that it's more strategic. Your opponent has more room to move around while they're being comboed, and you have to be smarter to pursue them and continue the combo.

If they remain close, you know what that means? It means that when you combo them, it's not because you're outsmarting them, it's because they cannot do anything.

Spreading the combos out over a larger space is a good thing. It makes smaller and larger maps play very differently. It makes the combos harder to memorize, since there's more variation in movement. And plus, as others have mentioned, increasing dash attack and aerial movement speed has a positive effect on some of the slower characters that currently have an uphill battle, as well as making the game more interesting.

 

[kupo15]

Currently I disagree, I have pperformed a lot of pretty nasty combos using the same codeset you are using against real players. I have a friend coming by tonight and all day tomorrow to test with, but I dont think the DI is too strong at the moment.

I have perform some nasty combos also, but thats when they screwed up. I can't believe ppl are not seeing that the radius you can DI with is too good. Its like a 90 deg angle and it needs to be like 70 deg or something. W/e we test. And you wonder why Marths tippers don't work the way they did >.<

Well I think one obvious argument against nerfing DI and for buffing dashes/aerial movement is that it's more strategic. Your opponent has more room to move around while they're being comboed, and you have to be smarter to pursue them and continue the combo.

If they remain close, you know what that means? It means that when you combo them, it's not because you're outsmarting them, it's because they cannot do anything.

Spreading the combos out over a larger space is a good thing. It makes smaller and larger maps play very differently. It makes the combos harder to memorize, since there's more variation in movement. And plus, as others have mentioned, increasing dash attack and aerial movement speed has a positive effect on some of the slower characters that currently have an uphill battle, as well as making the game more interesting.

Oh well. I guess melee's combo game sucked in the variety department because they weren't chasing you around the level and they could stay closer...gotcha1

 

[Dark Sonic]

You just described faster dashes since it affects both the approach game and combo game but now you have ganon who can get to you faster.

Isn't that a good thing? Don't we want Ganon to get to you faster? What exactly is wrong with that.

We have a problem with catching up to ppl because the DI is too strong. So instead of actually attacking the source of the problem, you'd rather artificially speed up dashes??

You have problems catching up to ppl because your character's speed is not enough to make up for the distance they are sent and the stun they are put in. There are many ways you can fix this problem. You can increase the hitstun, you can increase the speed of the characters, you can decrease the ending lag of the moves, you can decrease the knockback, or you could decrease the DI's influence. All of these things are fixes to the problem (some may not be feasible, but they still would solve the problem were they possible to implement), some are just more preferable than others. I prefer the speed increase because of it's other benefits, since with regards to the problem they all do the same thing (make it easier to combo by some degree).

So youd rather chase your opponent around the **** stage instead keeping them closer while being pressed for time?

Yes! Yes I would. That's exactly what I had to do in melee! I played Marth, who was one of the best comboers in the game, but I still had to chase people all over the stage and up and down the platforms in order to keep combos going, and I had to end plenty of combos with a very early finisher because my opponent would've escaped otherwise. I had to do dashes before jumping, I had to waveland on platforms, I had to run across the stage and dash cancel->f-smash, and I enjoyed every second of it.

Your sonic, you don't need to be any faster.

So? I play Marth too (he's not that fast)

And btw, this is a strong suggestion as an alt to not having a horizontal air increase because I am very skeptical that will even happen

If it turns out that it can't happen, I may support this. But there are so many benefits to the approach game with a simple speed increase, while fixing the combo game at the same time.

And you wonder why Marths tippers don't work the way they did >.<

Marth's f-smash was not that strong. When you DI'd correctly, it sent you right at the top right corner of the screen (I.E. it was very inefficient since it sent them in the worst direction for killing them).

The reason you hear so many horror stories about it is because people often didn't DI it correctly, as they were often caught by surprise when it hit them (and with that kind of range, what person wouldn't be surprised?)

 

[Almas]

Kupo, can you PLEASE update the code in the OP. I've been screaming it for ages.

Fast-Fall/Short-Hop/Dash Speed Multiplier [Almas]
045A930C FASTFALL
045A9304 SHORTHOP
045A9308 DASHDASH
C285765C 00000008
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F00 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C3FE2008 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000


EDIT: And I still don't think PSing needs changing. Just because you can do it all the time doesn't make it necessarily overpowered. I view it like L-cancelling, except it's harder to do and you don't die horribly if you mess it up.

 

[shanus]

Kupo, would you mind updating your gct with Almas Dash speed multiplier set at +10% for me to test with. No changes to the powershield or shielding window and shieldstun at 11/22/5. Hitstun at 9%? Fallspeed at 1.1 is fine for me I think as well with no upward grav.

If you don't have the time its alright, but your my only source for gcts until I move back to the dorm at the end of this weekend and I really appreciate your help. I'll all be for changing the DI if I think its too much, but I think we are changing things so rapidly its hard to tell if its necessary yet.

 

[BEES]

Oh well. I guess melee's combo game sucked in the variety department because they weren't chasing you around the level and they could stay closer...gotcha1

Because that is exactly what I said.

Honestly I think that the gameplay with faster movement and more DI resembles melee closer. It's just scaled up a notch in size.

 

[kupo15]

Isn't that a good thing? Don't we want Ganon to get to you faster? What exactly is wrong with that.

No. We don't want to affect the character's attributes because they really are fine. Its an artificial speed increase to the game thats not needed when we have the source problem to fix

You have problems catching up to ppl because your character's speed is not enough to make up for the distance they are sent and the stun they are put in. There are many ways you can fix this problem. You can increase the hitstun, you can increase the speed of the characters, you can decrease the ending lag of the moves, you can decrease the knockback, or you could decrease the DI's influence. All of these things are fixes to the problem (some may not be feasible, but they still would solve the problem were they possible to implement), some are just more preferable than others. I prefer the speed increase because of it's other benefits, since with regards to the problem they all do the same thing (make it easier to combo by some degree).

Yea, because captian falcon is soo slow he cant catch up to people. And out of your list here are the viable options comprised of good and bad approaches to deal with this IMO of course

increase the hitstun
increase the speed of the characters
decrease the ending lag of the moves
decrease the knockback
decrease the DI's influence

Hitstun doesn't need to be higher
We already halved the landing lag of all moves, it doesn't need to be more
We shouldn't change the kb of moves

We could increase the speed of characters but that would be changing the characters attributes which is something we should avoid when we have the mechanic responsible to fix thats OP atm.

Yes! Yes I would. That's exactly what I had to do in melee! I played Marth, who was one of the best comboers in the game, but I still had to chase people all over the stage and up and down the platforms in order to keep combos going, and I had to end plenty of combos with a very early finisher because my opponent would've escaped otherwise. I had to do dashes before jumping, I had to waveland on platforms, I had to run across the stage and dash cancel->f-smash, and I enjoyed every second of it.

No I'm not talking about vertical stuff. I mained marth in melee and he didn't really have to move around that much especially to combo spacies. Maybe a jump here or there but he didn't have to run 3/4th the way of FD to combo with a dash attack, then run 1/2 way the other way to continue to the combo. Most of the combos at lower percents involved you staying relatively the same distance between yourself and the opponent. The combos were controlled and awesome because you didn't have to run a marathon to catch up to people when they had 10% damage on them!!

If it turns out that it can't happen, I may support this. But there are so many benefits to the approach game with a simple speed increase, while fixing the combo game at the same time.

But the approach game doesn't really need faster dashes!! We already buffed the approach game with several codes!! We still have the problem of running around at 15% damage and we should attack that by fixing the mechanic responsible instead of using an outside mechanc to do the job that arbitrary speeds changes the characters attributes!!!

Updated Almas. I thought I was up to date

Because that is exactly what I said.

Honestly I think that the gameplay with faster movement and more DI resembles melee closer. It's just scaled up a notch in size.

Yes that is basically what you implied seeing how I'm arguing to make the DI and combos more like melee (keep things a little closer NOT by a lot) and your saying that its more skilled to chase people around which I never really saw people do. I saw them scrambling but they were moving in a relatively small distance left to right.

The thing is, even at those times when you have to chase people a bit more to continue the combos, the DI was in check with the air speed of the game. What you have in brawl is the DI well surpasses the air speed of the game and if that can get fixed, fine we don't need a DI nerf. But if we can't and I fear that we really can't seeing how there is no mechanic built in the game to work with, DI should be the fix for the problem since that is the reason for the problem...not run speed.

Adjusting mechanics to fix problems have proven in the past to work better than artificially speeding things up since they attack the source with the least amount of side effects

 

[Me_Aludes]

If you decrease DI's influence you will have to lower hitstun for sure (lower than 10%). Otherwise you'll make chars like Sheik GOD tier. With 1.3down & 10%hitstun, she has follow-ups for almost all her tilts regardless of the other player's DI at low-mid percentages. I managed to do some crazy combos with her against "good" oponents with only 3 days of learning, which is stupid enough. I don't want to make them easier than they already are.