COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Yeroc]

Oh ****, that's awesome kupo.

 

[matt4300]

wow i got it to work agin but all the problems still remain the biggest problems being that when you try to ALC a really laggy airial your char will automaticly go into a really tight fast standing pose wich you can get out of at any time.... and if you useing nesses pk fire it wont come out and if you try to pluck a bomb with link he glitches then does nothing... and some attacks like nesses pk thunder completely freeze the game right when the object is created ( havent tryed many chars to see what freezes the game other than these)

i deleted my crazy stages and turned of the stage codes and all the above remains... guess i will go down the list and delete new codes that might be causeing the glitches and freezes. >_>

 

[Yeroc]

Yeah, download someone else's codeset and try it.

First impressions on the shield code? I'm all for a powershield reduction of 2-4 frames. I think I rather like the low drop time in Brawl, it's good. Didn't realize the shield actually takes time to come up.

Now, what codes to move around....

 

[plasmatorture]

EDIT: Oh ya. I still play a lot of 4 player matches, and my roommates and I made a soft ban for Meta Knight, but it's always upsetting to get him in random. Any chance we can remove him from random? lol

If your CSS doesn't have MK in it, you can't random him.


Any ETA on combined codes? I've been waiting to use new codes for a while now because I don't have much, if anything, I can drop...

New shield code sounds sexy.

 

[leafgreen386]

Yes! PS modifier! I don't see a need to change the shield up or down times. Shield has always come up quickly. It goes down quicker in brawl than it used to, but I don't think we need to change that. Just fix the PS window to make it not so gay.

@matt: Have you tried loading the game without codes yet? If you still get errors, I think you're going to need to erase your brawl file and start anew. Thankfully, there are codes that unlock stages and characters (and there's the CD hack, too, for quickly getting all the music), but you'll still end up losing any records you may or may not care about keeping. I don't think that the corruption is completely permanent, mostly because I just can't see the game writing directly to the brawl disc. I can easily see it corrupting your save file, though.

 

[GPDP]

FFFFFFFFFFF, now I'm gonna have to remove the sexy new custom CSS. This new code is too good to pass up.

However, auto-powershielding still remains, doesn't it? Shouldn't that be taken away as well?

 

[kupo15]

yea, I don't think shield drop needs to be changed. It is possible that like spunits shield stun code, the X and Y values may not work but the shield drop def works

FFFFFFFFFFF, now I'm gonna have to remove the sexy new custom CSS. This new code is too good to pass up.

However, auto-powershielding still remains, doesn't it? Shouldn't that be taken away as well?

I would like it gone but a lower PS window means less frequency

And btw:

Jiang thinks spunit switched PSing and shield up because jiang can easily ps anything now. Spunit did have question marks in his pm about those two

 

[Shell]

Hmmm... what was Magus420's recommendation for the PS window? 5-6 frames?

Also, Kupo, could you add character exemptions from the shorthop code to the list of future codes? After playing with it for a few matches, it definitely helps land shuffl'd attacks on a grounded opponent and improve flow in general. I got quite a few more grounded knees, and with 1.15 dash speed landed a few knee to knee kills. However, we don't want to go killing thunderstorming, etc. This code is especially important to those that use low gravity levels but want to retain a good SHUFFL game.

 

[kupo15]

-Attacks window: 5/6 frames
-Projectile window: 3 frames

And added

 

[Alopex]

Wait... why are we messing with how long PS'ing lasts?

Making it shorter just makes it more powerful, and it's already pretty dammn powerful.

Making it longer defies its purpose.

PS'ing is perfect as it is, it just needs a slightly smaller execution window.

Especially since there's Near Perfect Shielding as well as PS'ing.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJnHumS4Wac for anyone who missed it)


EDIT: Ok, so I guess I just got confused by your wording, kupo. The code IS a PS'ing WINDOW length modifier?

If so, I am ELADED TO THE MAX!!! XD XD

-Attacks window: 5/6 frames
-Projectile window: 3 frames

And added

Are you sure it wasn't the opposite?

I recall that the consensus was that projectiles needed the larger window since making PS'ing projectiles hard would just greatly boost the camping game.

 

[Shell]

Wait, one of us is confused. Does the code change how long the PS animation lasts if you do it correctly? As in, a longer value means the shield stays up longer than a normal PS and is thus less effective?

Or does it affect the window to PS? Where a higher value is a larger window?


Edit: the low window for projectiles implied that it would reflect the projectile, too.

 

[kupo15]

Wait... why are we messing with how long PS'ing lasts?

Making it shorter just makes it more powerful, and it's already pretty dammn powerful.

Making it longer defies its purpose.

PS'ing is perfect as it is, it just needs a slightly smaller execution window.

Especially since there's Near Perfect Shielding as well as PS'ing.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJnHumS4Wac for anyone who missed it)


EDIT: Ok, so I guess I just got confused by your wording, kupo. The code IS a PS'ing WINDOW length modifier?

If so, I am ELADED TO THE MAX!!! XD XD

Hopefully the shield up and PS part of the code works. This is what spunit said.

I can't quite figure out what X and Y do but they should do something.

Are you sure it wasn't the opposite?

I recall that the consensus was that projectiles needed the larger window since making PS'ing projectiles hard would just greatly boost the camping game.

Yes because projectiles are easier to time because they are predictable. This is how melee was...larger projectile window

Wait, one of us is confused. Does the code change how long the PS animation lasts if you do it correctly? As in, a longer value means the shield stays up longer than a normal PS and is thus less effective?

Or does it affect the window to PS? Where a higher value is a larger window?

its a mystery

 

[Alopex]

This is how melee was...larger projectile window

Exactly... so why would we make it a smaller window than physical attacks in Brawl+?

 

[zxeon]

-Attacks window: 5/6 frames
-Projectile window: 3 frames

And added

What's Barwl's current PS window again? Are you going to add HAD back on the list? Sure DCing and DDing are good for midrange but there is nothing good for close quarters.

 

[kupo15]

Exactly... so why would we make it a smaller window than physical attacks in Brawl+?

Who says we are going to make it smaller than the melee window?

What's Barwl's current PS window again? Are you going to add HAD back on the list? Sure DCing and DDing are good for midrange but there is nothing good for close quarters.

Fine!


And jiang confirmed values:

X how long the PS last Default Float 8
Y delay before shield comes up Default Float 4
Z shield drop Default Float 8 (does nothing atm)

 

[Alopex]

Hmm... well I found Magus's post on Melee Powershielding, here it is:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5947466&postcount=153

So the projectile window was smaller in Melee.


Ok... so I understand the values you mentioned above now, kupo.

I'll test it out and see what that code does to the PS, exactly.

Unless someone's already done that?


Either way, if we reduce the PS'ing window on projectiles too much and Pit's arrows start pissing me off more than they already do... I'll be very vocal about bringing that window up.

Projectiles are far more powerful in Brawl than they were in Melee.

And we still can't reflect projectiles with Brawl PS so Brawl+ PS doesn't need to be that connected to Melee's window.

I mean, 3 frames only? Only 1 frame more than Melee's window? With Brawl's projectiles? I'm thinking 4 frames might be better. Don't think more will be needed.

 

[kupo15]

Hmm... well I found Magus's post on Melee Powershielding, here it is:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5947466&postcount=153

So the projectile window was smaller in Melee.


Ok... so I understand the values you mentioned above now, kupo.

I'll test it out and see what that code does to the PS, exactly.

Unless someone's already done that?


Either way, if we reduce the PS'ing window on projectiles too much and Pit's arrows start pissing me off more than they already do... I'll be very vocal about bringing that window up.

Projectiles are far more powerful in Brawl than they were in Melee.

And we still can't reflect projectiles with Brawl PS so Brawl+ PS doesn't need to be that connected to Melee's window.

I mean, 3 frames only? Only 1 frame more than Melee's window? With Brawl's projectiles? I'm thinking 4 frames might be better. Don't think more will be needed.

I have a feeling that if brawls PS window makes the distinction, then that value will scale both equally

 

[Alopex]

I have a feeling that if brawls PS window makes the distinction, then that value will scale both equally

Sorry, I didn't follow that. What value will scale equally if Brawl PS can make the distinction?


Also, so Jiang confirms that it just modifies how long the PS stays out for, not the window of its activation?

Aww.... lame...

Well, that part of the code is useless, then.

And I don't really support messing with any of the other shield constants either.

There's nothing really wrong with how long it takes for the shield to come up or how fast it goes down...

 

[zxeon]

If we add a little shield drop time it can help with the near powershielding issues.

 

[kupo15]

Sorry, I didn't follow that. What value will scale equally if Brawl PS can make the distinction?


Also, so Jiang confirms that it just modifies how long the PS stays out for, not the window of its activation?

Aww.... lame...

Well, that part of the code is useless, then.

And I don't really support messing with any of the other shield constants either.

There's nothing really wrong with how long it takes for the shield to come up or how fast it goes down...

That the window of physical attacks to projectiles scale

And no. Jiang just confirms that spunit mixed his values up

 

[GPDP]

Agh, I'm confused now. Does the code modify the window for PSing or not?

 

[kupo15]

Agh, I'm confused now. Does the code modify the window for PSing or not?

A better question would be "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop."

They both have the same answer
...srsly

 

[zxeon]

Agh, I'm confused now. Does the code modify the window for PSing or not?

God*mnit what's going on here? I don't get it at all!

 

[GPDP]

A better question would be "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop."

They both have the same answer
...srsly

The answer is three?

 

[Alopex]

If we add a little shield drop time it can help with the near powershielding issues.

It's not really a problem when you look more closely at it.

It's an interesting mechanic.

It really is freaking hard, like Melee PS hard, and the reward can be easily justified if you actually manage to pull it off intentionally.

You'll almost always end up PS'ing if you try to time it anyway; the NPS is just a way for you to get lucky. Because of that, no one will ever expect to get it and thus, in surprise, no one will react fast enough to make it useful.

The only attacks it really matters with are jabs, since timing it allows you to dodge a AA or AAA sequence.
You still can't shieldgrab though, because you'll get hit by the second jab before your grab connects. So it's not really a problematic phenomenon there either.

The NPS seems like an issue at first, but it's just so hard to pull off that it's a non-factor, really.


Messing with the shield drop time will probably affect overall shieldstun the most, and not in a good way.

Increasing shield drop time is an effective increase of shiledstun across the board. That'll just complete things needlessly. It's especially needless when everyone seems to be agreeing that the 11/22/5 values I posted are pretty ideal and changing shield drop would mean doing all that testing all over again...

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

one of you guys test this out for me


No Perfect Shielding Window
C27ACF7C 00000007
83FF007C 83FF0038
2C1F001A 40A20018
2C030008 4080000C
38600000 48000008
38600008 2C1F001C
40A20008 38600004
7C7F1B78 00000000


Perfect Shielding 3 frames
C27ACF7C 00000007
83FF007C 83FF0038
2C1F001A 40A20018
2C030008 4080000C
38600003 48000008
38600008 2C1F001C
40A20008 38600004
7C7F1B78 00000000

 

[zxeon]

If you can NPS as long as you can still see the halo your shield gives off.

 

[Alopex]

OK, confirming that the PS code affects the PS'ing window, NOT the length it is out for.

WOO!

I tested 9999 for the window value and you can PS every time, even when your shield is already out, lol. It was pretty funny to her the "Ping!" everytime Fox's lasers hit my shield.


@Zxeon
I thought it was that at first, but it's not. If you're referring to the blue ring, that is. I tried many times to get the NPS while the blue ring was still visible, and it didn't work. It's really really precise timing and it's very hard.

@ Jiang
I will test those right NOW!

EDIT: Wait, Jiang, why did you change the delay before the shield comes up to 8 instead of 4?

I'll test 0 PS and 3 frame PS, but I don't see the need to lengthen the delay before the shield comes up. Shielding should be fast. So I'm going to keep the 4 float value while I test those.

 

[Osi]

So after hours of gameplay with a slight dash speed increase I have to say I'm sold on it completely. A lot of the reasons I wanted jump momentum are covered by this code.

I think it keeps the unique feeling for each character's dash with a slight speed increase. This was one of my main arguments against MAD. Even though it was clearly different for each character. I didn't believe it followed the intended movement style for each character.

Some of the combos with this are simply amazing! I tried it with 8.5 and all the same settings mookie posted earlier. It is harder to make combos link up, and also in turn harder to DI/avoid them due to the speed increase. The harder difficulty of combos is then balanced out by the additional options. Dash speed + dash dance + dash crouch cancel code is simply amazing. I feel in more control of my character than with MAD, and it keeps all the normal character attributes with a slight increase in speed. Dash dancing with the speed is also a lot better for mindgames. It's a little harder to react to dash changes with the speed, so it makes entry a bit harder to predict.

I originally though "oh awesome falcon is a beast with knee to knee combos again!" until I noticed some slower characters I use are helped a ton by this code. The largest I noticed was falco. I'm still not likely to main him or anything just because he is better with the speed increase, but he is fun. With better dash speed he can link some insane combos with his nair and dair. Some others that felt a lot better with it were mario/ness/sheik/samus/jiggly. They are all much more agile and able to transition between air/ground in combos.

I also liked the lower hitstun because it made "simple" combos much harder to land. Things like up tilt juggles and up air juggles are harder at 8.5%, and I really enjoyed this.

At first I was a bit worried that the air game would be a bit too slow with faster dash speeds, but a lower hitstun with BAD makes it faster to escape and counter in the air. The area I noticed most affected was the air right off the ground. Low dash juggle combos are much better with the code, and if done right most characters can take an opponent clear across FD/smashville(this is really hard and requires good DI prediction of course).

Sorry for talking a little out of topic. I'm checking out the shield codes atm too.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

OK, confirming that the PS code affects the PS'ing window, NOT the length it is out for.

WOO!

I tested 9999 for the window value and you can PS every time, even when your shield is already out, lol. It was pretty funny to her the "Ping!" everytime Fox's lasers hit my shield.


@Zxeon
I thought it was that at first, but it's not. If you're referring to the blue ring, that is. I tried many times to get the NPS while the blue ring was still visible, and it didn't work. It's really really precise timing and it's very hard.

@ Jiang
I will test those right NOW!

EDIT: Wait, Jiang, why did you change the delay before the shield comes up to 8 instead of 4?

I'll test 0 PS and 3 frame PS, but I don't see the need to lengthen the delay before the shield comes up. Shielding should be fast. So I'm going to keep the 4 float value while I test those.

meh i just plugged in random values because neither of those do what they're supposed to. you won't notice a difference.

 

[kupo15]

well it seems as if the only thing ppl care about is the PS window so I might as well tell spunit to remove all parts of the code except that. Which value is the PS window anyway?

 

[GPDP]

Didn't Kish feel that the shield goes up much too fast?

 

[kupo15]

Didn't Kish feel that the shield goes up much too fast?

yes he did and he felt that it went down too fast. Then maybe ill inform spunit that the shield up value is the wrong one.

 

[SketchHurricane]

****, I leave this thread for a day and there's like 10 new pages?

Messing with the shield drop time will probably affect overall shieldstun the most, and not in a good way.

Increasing shield drop time is an effective increase of shiledstun across the board. That'll just complete things needlessly. It's especially needless when everyone seems to be agreeing that the 11/22/5 values I posted are pretty ideal and changing shield drop would mean doing all that testing all over again...

Not necessarily. The way I see it, shield drop basically replaces the addition in the shield stun formula. They work the same way in increasing shield stun across the board. The main difference would be that shield drop would nerf out-of-shield options like shield grabbing on top of it's nerf on shield retaliation out of stun. Do you agree?

BTW Osi makes a strong case for dash speed. I think it might be worth extra testing if what he says holds merit.

 

[Alopex]

Confirming that:

- The X value is indeed the PS value.
- 0 for that value did remove the PS.
- 3 for that value did make the PS much more difficult.

In general, 3 felt like slightly too little. It was pretty hard to pull off on physical attacks, and not as useful against speedy projectiles like Pit's Arrows.

I'm going to test 4 now and see how that goes. If the values for physical and projectiles can't be separated, 4-5 would probably be the best compromise.


@Osi
Were you testing everything with the 11/22/5 shieldstun values? If so, how did you find it? If not, wut?



@ Shield up and down values:

NO! Seriously, NO!
With the PS code we have all we need. We are DONE nerfing defense.

Seriously. We've been boosting offense since day 1 and the offense now is MORE than capable of overcoming the defense, and the super easy PS was the last thing we needed to tweak.

No making shields slower to come up and go down. We've gone far enough. Seriously. Shielding should be FAST, it's a defense mechanism!

I'm going to go find that post by Mookie where he talks about how the balance between defense and offense getting too skewed.

 

[Osi]

Love the new sig sketch hehe, so awesome.

I have run into a problem... no more code space to test the new shield codes hahaha. I guess the SH/DS/FF code and shield stun put me at max. I'll likely just take out dash cancel to test these and put it back in later once codes are merged. I was actually wondering how the merging attempts are going, does it look viable?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

3 still feels kinda easy

 

[Alopex]

3 still feels kinda easy

If you're comparing it to Melee...

Are the float point values corresponding directly to frames?
Cause if 3 for value X is a 3-frame window, then given this, http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5947466&postcount=153, how is it possible that you find it easy when it's 1 frame harder than Melee's physical PS?


@Osi

The question on my previous post was supposed to be directed at you. I was wondering if YOU (Not Magus) did all your testing with 11/22/5 shieldstun.
If so, thoughts? If not, wut?

I saw colored text and immediately thought Magus... even though his is purple... my bad...

 

[kupo15]

BTW Osi makes a strong case for dash speed. I think it might be worth extra testing if what he says holds merit.

Actually, I think we should just weaken DI. Not only will it accomplish the same as what Osi says but its a more natural adjustment that makes a ton more sense for the game. Melee's DI was perfect, brawls is waaaaaay over the top with control and being able to easily get away from your opponent.

Weaken DI, they stay a little closer, you can keep the runs where they are which makes the game feel more natural and the comboing tighter.

 

[zxeon]

We could weaken DI but that would take more lines and time to do. We can do it with what we have now. I think I'll post in green from now on.