COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Alopex]

Well, yeah, I wasn't really considering the Uairs, to be honest. I was actually thinking strictly about the Dair since that was the point KayJay brought up.

But now KayJay has provided plenty of information, so I don't really have a role here anymore except to read what you guys discuss.

All I know is that if KayJay's info is right (and it's looking pretty solid), then those of you that want 0 buffer need to figure out what the problem is in the code.

Remember what Magus said and KayJay verified: 0 buffer in Melee still made instant Dairs, Nairs, Fairs possible. So why is 0 buffer not letting it work in Brawl+?

 

[KayJay]

Well, yeah, I wasn't really considering the Uairs, to be honest. I was actually thinking strictly about the Dair since that was the point KayJay brought up.

But now KayJay has provided plenty of information, so I don't really have a role here anymore except to read what you guys discuss.

All I know is that if KayJay's info is right (and it's looking pretty solid), then those of you that want 0 buffer need to figure out what the problem is in the code.

Remember what Magus said and KayJay verified: 0 buffer in Melee still made instant Dairs, Nairs, Fairs possible. So why is 0 buffer not letting it work in Brawl+?

Maybe Melee never was at 0 buffer, maybe it was on 3 or slightly less. thats what I guess.
I will test now at which buffer exactly instant aerials won't work anymore.

 

[Shell]

**EPIC UPDATE** Long post, good info.

I just finished testing using MuBa's dash-exit animation to stand animation code (in place of dash crouch canceling) and dash dancing. The result is absolutely incredible.

In effect, in creates unlimited dash dancing. This is an idea we had already discussed. Kupo's arguments against included:

1) Why? . . . .

2) You need to be able to punish failed dash dancing.

3) You don't want dashing to be "overpowered"

4) It makes tech chasing too easy

5) Would remove RAR (my own argument)


My response was:

1) Why not?

2) You can't really punish the slow turnaround animation. You can still jump, shield, attack, and dodge in this animation.

3) I didn't understand how movement could be overpowered.

4) I completely agree. A tech chasing animation speed - up would be not to difficult though, and is probably already necessary anyways. This would be more than affordable with the lines MuBa's simple swap code saves.

5) Actually, I'm not sure how I did it, but you can still RAR with MuBa's code on. Which also means that you could possibly be "punished" because there's still a possible slow turnaround depending on how you input the dash.

Additional findings:

Everything you can do with the dash cancel code, you can do with MuBa's. Run, then tap down and then perform most attacks (tilts are more difficult). Run, the slide down to back and then press A to do a sliding jab. The approach game is a completely new animal. The game is silky smooth, control feels tight, and the mindgames are epic. It's the most fun I've had with Brawl yet.

This version does not include the Shield drop modifier or Giza's grab release modifier. Check a couple pages back for that version.

No Dash end animation - 6 lines (MuBa)
4A000000 8077F780
D2000000 00000004
2C030000 41820010
2C1C0005 40820008
3B800000 60000000
939E0038 00000000

 

[zxeon]

^^The truth^^

 

[plasmatorture]

Just so it's easy to find, here's the one with shield drop:

Run Cancel - Stop Turn Cancel - Shield End Cancel (12 Lines) (Muba)
4A000000 8077F780
D2000000 0000000A
2C030000 41820010
2C1C0005 40820008
3B800000 60000000
2C030000 41820010
2C1C0008 40820008
3B800000 60000000
2C030000 41820010
2C1C001C 40820008
3B800000 60000000
939E0038 00000000

Thanks for posting that one, though, since I've been meaning to try switching to that just to see if it does what I want without taking as many lines.

 

[KayJay]

Instant aerials work on 1 Buffer, so as long as nobody finds glitches at 1 Buffer I highly recommend it over 0 Buffer.

 

[Shell]

I highly recommend everyone try it, if only for a few rounds. It feels liberating.


Also, I tried out 1.30 fall speed, with .95 short hops and 4 buffer frames for all of the matches. Unfortunately I got quite a few buffer errors this time around. Not sure what I'll do about that.

-The short hop height was great, and most autocancels seem to work except the thunderstorm, which has a few frames of lag left on the end. Marth's double short hopped fair works, but DK's double bair does not. This is not a crucial code, but if there was a way to make it not apply to certain characters (Ganon, in particular) it would become a personal standard much faster.

 

[Almas]

Alright, it looks like I need to clarify, I only used 1.5 overall gravity to easily test the effect of gravity on recoveries. I am not advocating we use 1.5 gravity. What want is the following:

- higher launch power to make jumps faster
- higher upward gravity to offset the effect of higher launch power on jump height
- higher downward gravity to match the faster jumps
- somehow make it so that recoveries that are tied to upwards gravity are not affected

I'll have a think about this. I can't promise anything but I've seen some odd behaviour with Up+Bs so I'll have to tinker with a few things. That said, the launch power of Up+B moves uses a different set of programming to the stuff that I was modifying before.

I'm guessing the error caused by Spunits code is just that he's overwritten somewhere I was using - after all, I had plonked my variables right next to his and now he's using two of them instead of one. Fixing the problems will take 5 minutes of my time that I don't have right now - I'm about to go off to an exam, but I'll patch it up later.

I'll get some videos recorded tonight with the following codeset:

Trip 0
Up 1.1/Down 1.2
Stale 0
Freeze (Picto, Wario, Port Town, Pkmn2, Green Hill Zone)
Short Hop 0.9/Fast Fall 1.2
Dash Dance
Buffer 0
Shieldstun Weak 4/Strong 3 (Not using the updated one until I've removed glitches between using the two codes)
Lagless Ledges 2
Shield for Independant
Dash Cancel
Autosweetspot
Hitstun 0.5
Auto-L

Oh lawd, too many codes!

EDIT: Another note - I'm not sure if sticker ideas would work, but I don't know either way. They're separated by the file structure, or some jargon like that, but I'm not sure of the full implications of that. Flinching can be removed - but only by also removing all knockback at a simple level. I just had an interesting thought - certain moves could be given power armour using this.

 

[Shell]

Could someone gifted with hacking knowledge check to see if the sticker portion of the game is usable (hackable) in versus?

I'll try out the unlimited dash dancing some more in the next few days with a variety of opponents and gather feedback.

 

[GPDP]

I'll have a think about this. I can't promise anything but I've seen some odd behaviour with Up+Bs so I'll have to tinker with a few things. That said, the launch power of Up+B moves uses a different set of programming to the stuff that I was modifying before.

Alright, I won't keep my hopes up too much, but it's nice to see that someone is at least taking a look. Up B's definitely seem to possess a separate launch power variable to the one used in jumps, as the Bunny Hood confirms (as it exponentially increases the launch power of jumps, double and multiple jumps, and short hops, but recoveries are unaffected, and indeed nerfed due to a slight increase in upwards gravity inherent to the bunny hood).

 

[K1T3]

There seems to be a problem in Brawl with heavies. For some reason they have to wait forever to do an aerial attack when jumping from the ground. If we could allow all characters to attack almost as soon as they leave the ground it would fix a lot of issues.

I hate this so very very very very much.

In melee I use X to jump and Z to do an immediate attack once I start my in air animation so that I can attack as soon as possible. This in needed ie. against a falco pillaring your shield (i'm sheik) and immediatly after the shine you jump out of shield and nair him. I was quite proficient with this.

Immediately upon getting brawl I noticed that I could no longer attack with Z so I switched my Z to attack and Y to grab this way I could jump and push the attack button at the same time.
The problem is that with many characters it simply would not register the attack much to my dismay and I would simply do an empty jump. This happens with quite a few characters so I have to basically jump and wait a bit then do my attack or the attack doesn't register.

No this has nothing to do with codes as this as been happening to me since the game came out. Also, no, it's not just up airs as I just went and tried with DK's Bair and this kept happening to me if I tried to attack upon jumping (again vanilla brawl)
I can of course delay pushing attack for a bit and still fit in the double bair easily though.

Also how can you want infinite dash dance? That means you would never be able to shield while dashing as you wouldn't enter the run animation.

On shielding during dash animation

Dash to powershield was quite useable in melee Kupo. Myself and several other people in my city would dash up powershield and downsmash (peach's) or upsmash(fox's).
Dash to shield is done regularly in vanilla brawl too as the initial dash animation is so short they can almost always get their shield out if someone attack while dashing. Why would you want to deny and option that is even in vanilla brawl?
All being able to shield during your initial dash does is add options. That is what we are trying to do, it allows more approachs and doesn't make it so that dashing is a bad thing and something you look for to punish every time you see it since you know they can't shield.

 

[KayJay]

I hate this so very very very very much.

In melee I use X to jump and Z to do an immediate attack once I start my in air animation so that I can attack as soon as possible. This in needed ie. against a falco pillaring your shield (i'm sheik) and immediatly after the shine you jump out of shield and nair him. I was quite proficient with this.

Immediately upon getting brawl I noticed that I could no longer attack with Z so I switched my Z to attack and Y to grab this way I could jump and push the attack button at the same time.
The problem is that with many characters it simply would not register the attack much to my dismay and I would simply do an empty jump. This happens with quite a few characters so I have to basically jump and wait a bit then do my attack or the attack doesn't register.

No this has nothing to do with codes as this as been happening to me since the game came out. Also, no, it's not just up airs as I just went and tried with DK's Bair and this kept happening to me if I tried to attack upon jumping (again vanilla brawl)
I can of course delay pushing attack for a bit and still fit in the double bair easily though.

In Vanilla Brawl i got that problem solved by pressing jump + attack simultaneously.

 

[K1T3]

In Vanilla Brawl i got that problem solved by pressing jump + attack simultaneously.

I do that and that's what causes the problem. The whole reason I set attack to Z so so that I can push both Jump and attack at the same time and the problem always arises unless I delay pushin attack by quite a bit.

But either way I was just saying this is what people were saying is caused by 0 buffer which is not the case at all, it was already there. 0 buffer did not create this problem nor should people discard it because they think it did, was my point.

I've been playing with 0 buffer for many hrs now and havn't seen any problems at all. I have gravity increased to 1.3x and I can still auto cancel all my moves (did not try ganons dair as his didn't work for me in vanilla brawl, save a small percent of the time, due to me pushing attack to fast and it not registering and him just empty jumping) but Wolf's fair, Falcon's dair, etc work fine. I can complete Snakes Nair fine. I can do all sh double airs including d3s bair which is the one most likely to be affected, so 0 buffer does not cause any problems that I can tell.

 

[KayJay]

I do that and that's what causes the problem. The whole reason I set attack to Z so so that I can push both Jump and attack at the same time and the problem always arises unless I delay pushin attack by quite a bit.

But either way I was just saying this is what people were saying is caused by 0 buffer which is not the case at all, it was already there. 0 buffer did not create this problem nor should people discard it because they think it did, was my point.

I've been playing with 0 buffer for many hrs now and havn't seen any problems at all. I have gravity increased to 1.3x and I can still auto cancel all my moves (did not try ganons dair as his didn't work for me in vanilla brawl, save a small percent of the time, due to me pushing attack to fast and it not registering and him just empty jumping) but Wolf's fair, Falcon's dair, etc work fine. I can complete Snakes Nair fine. I can do all sh double airs including d3s bair which is the one most likely to be affected, so 0 buffer does not cause any problems that I can tell.

I did set jump on A and attack on X, i never had empty short hops with that config.
Okay i say it again, at 1 Buffer it is possible to do things like ganon autocancel down air or sonic short hop forward air combined with an up air before landing, try the 2 things at 0 buffer.

 

[zxeon]

I did set jump on A and attack on X, i never had empty short hops with that config.
Okay i say it again, at 1 Buffer it is possible to do things like ganon autocancel down air or sonic short hop forward air + up air before landing, try the 2 things at 0 buffer.

Of course it's possible. everything is easier with training wheels, but you cant make sharp turns so you have to sacrifice control.

 

[KayJay]

Of course it's possible. everything is easier with training wheels, but you cant make sharp turns so you have to sacrifice control.

proof it, it's like talking to a wall. make the 2 things at 0 buffer, or make metaknight short hopped down air combined with back air before landing, there are more things like that.

 

[zxeon]

proof it, it's like talking to a wall. make the 2 things at 0 buffer, or make metaknight short hopped down air combined with back air before landing, there are more things like that.

It's incredibly difficult for a human to pull that off without buffering support.

I'll give it a try.

 

[Alopex]

I think your main issue is that you are using the Z button, K1.

It's a ****e button. It really is.

As KayJay pointed it, it works for him using A and X, two far more sensitive and standard buttons. Have you tried it yourself using a different button configuration?

I've never had an issue with DK's Bairs in vanilla Brawl. But I use X to jump and A to attack and never rely on Z, EVER (I prefer shield+A for grabs and I set R to attack so I can snakedash).

So try changing your button configuration and see if that alters your results. Try even going further and testing it on with Nunchuk, that way you'll know if the issue is controller-related or actually Brawl-based.

___


Getting back to what KayJay has determined, does anyone really have a problem with 1 buffer over 0 buffer?

I mean, if 1 buffer keeps the instant aerials and auto-canceled aerials, while letting us use the same code we already have... how can anyone justify that that 1 frame is really more detrimental than the null alternative?


EDIT:

It's incredibly difficult for a human to pull that off without buffering support.

I'll give it a try.

Proof-positive that some buffering needs to be retained. Now we're losing previously possible applications simply because we want sloppy execution to be punishable...
That's detrimental to game depth, plain and simple.

 

[plasmatorture]

Getting back to what KayJay has determined, does anyone really have a problem with 1 buffer over 0 buffer?

I mean, if 1 buffer keeps the instead aerials and auto-canceled aerials, while letting us use the same code we already have... how can anyone justify that that 1 frame is really more detrimental than the null alternative?

If it causes random glitches like the other values do, then I have a problem with it. However, I can't imagine 1 frame of buffer will cause any problems.... maybe. Would have to test it.

zexeon, before you try to do the things KayJay is asking, make sure you turn the shorter short hop code off.

Edit @ Alopex's edit:

He hasn't tested it yet, he's just saying it'll probably be very hard I think?

 

[Starscream]

I can deal with 1 frame of buffer, I just don't like how you still crouch upon landing a shffl unless you let go of the control stick super early after the fast fall. It just doesn't feel natural. This is really the only reason I want 0 buffering.

 

[KayJay]

I recorded it to show exactly what I mean. (it's only online as long as the FTP is on)
ftp://ftp.kayjay.dyndns.org/1Buffer.wmv
This, and more character specific combinations do not work on 0 Buffer, that's why I recommend 1 or Brawl's Buffer.

 

[zxeon]

I managed to pull off Sonic's Fair to Uair at 1/4 speed in training mode but the other things must require absurd timing.

Kay you mentioned earlier you had a control with auto fire right? Boot up Brawl in vanilla and make a replay of yourself thunder stomping with Ganon with the attack button you're using on auto-fire then replay it with the buffer modifier set at zero to see if it auto cancels.

 

[KayJay]

ok auto-fire sonic fair to uair works, (but its useless since it's really too hard to performe in a real match without auto-fire)
ganon dair autocancel definately doesn't work.
im about to save the video file

1Buffer: ftp://ftp.kayjay.dyndns.org/1BufferGanon.wmv
0Buffer: ftp://ftp.kayjay.dyndns.org/0BufferGanon.wmv

 

[K1T3]

I think your main issue is that you are using the Z button, K1.

It's a ****e button. It really is.

As KayJay pointed it, it works for him using A and X, two far more sensitive and standard buttons. Have you tried it yourself using a different button configuration?

I've never had an issue with DK's Bairs in vanilla Brawl. But I use X to jump and A to attack and never rely on Z, EVER (I prefer shield+A for grabs and I set R to attack so I can snakedash).

So try changing your button configuration and see if that alters your results. Try even going further and testing it on with Nunchuk, that way you'll know if the issue is controller-related or actually Brawl-based.

___


Getting back to what KayJay has determined, does anyone really have a problem with 1 buffer over 0 buffer?

I mean, if 1 buffer keeps the instant aerials and auto-canceled aerials, while letting us use the same code we already have... how can anyone justify that that 1 frame is really more detrimental than the null alternative?


EDIT:


Proof-positive that some buffering needs to be retained. Now we're losing previously possible applications simply because we want sloppy execution to be punishable...
That's detrimental to game depth, plain and simple.

Oh I don't have any problem when I use A for people like DK, that is because I push X with my thumb then let go of it and push A. This causes the same effect as me jumping and waiting a bit then pushing Z instead of pushing it sooner which I would have done.

There seems to be a small point in vanilla brawl at the beginning of the jump animation is my guess where it simply won't read the attack input.

KayJay you were correct though that if I push jump and Attack at the exact same time in vanilla brawl I thunderstomp perfectly everytime. If I delay the attack press for even a bit though it does not register and leads to an empty jump.

If there are no bugs in having 1 frame of buffer I am willing to at least give it a try to see if it causes the same problems that vanilla brawls buffer caused. If there are bugs at all though I think we should stick with 0 buffer as that does not seem to have any bugs, it simply limits people to what is humanly possible and I don't see any thing wrong with that.

 

[Alopex]

Well, that's what KayJay's been saying the whole time.

0 buffer creates a bug wherein instant aerials are no longer possible with some characters when they WERE possible in Brawl.

His examples include Ganon's Dair and Sonic's Fair, as you can see above and before. They don't work instantly with 0 buffer, but work just fine with 1 buffer.

Melee had 0 buffer inherently and never prevented any instant aerials (with the possible exception of Uairs? Like in vanilla Brawl?), so what's been concluded is that 0 buffer bugs some aerials, preventing them from being used instantly.

That's why 1 buffer over 0 buffer is being discussed.

 

[zxeon]

Another code had this same bug I think it was the first hitstun code.

 

[K1T3]

I'm trying to say that it's not a bug though.
The code is doing exactly what it is supposed to, which is remove the buffer.
The problem is that vanilla brawl won't recognise an attack during a certain frame or frames involving jump. This is could be for just certain attacks on certain characters, I can't say for sure.

Even if there is a 1 frame buffer that means you have to input whatever move, ie. ganon's dair within that 1 frame window or else you cannot auto cancel it as immediately after that the game won't even recognise the input. (in this case even attempting to do the auto cancel will more likely result in missing it and thus missing the attack completely and doing an empty jump as I was talking about before)

Now this is fine and all if people want to do that but if it still causes the buffer problems of unintentional changing facing directions or crouching or all the other things the buffer did that people didn't like then I don't know if having a single frame which would require perfect frame perfection to input an attack would be worth it.

 

[KayJay]

0 Buffer:
MK: sh dair to bair/fair almost impossible
sonic: sh fair to uair/nair almost impossible
mario: sh double bair almost impossible
link: sh bair to arrow cancel almost impossible
toonlink: sh fair to nair almost impossible
yoshi: sh bair to uair almost impossible

samus: sh double nair impossible
zelda:sh fair to bair impossible
ganon: sh dair autocancel impossible
cpt. falcon: sh dair autocancel impossible
link: tripple arrow jump impossible

I didn't test all possibilitys, but there are surely more.

Sorry guys, 0 Buffer is no option for me.

 

[Deleted member]

woah, lots of posts.

anyway how is the new shieldstun code?

 

[Revven]

Looking at Sketch's CPU video lulz makes me wanna try playing the CPUs today in Brawl+. You know what? I think I will. And, if they really are as interesting as ya'll say, I'll record a few matches.

Edit: hahahaha I just had a funny idea. Imagine if the CPU really IS too good, like, so good that the CPU deserves its own montage/combo video!

 

[shanus]

Wow lots of new posts since midnight. Anyone care to summarize the important finds haha

 

[Deleted member]

new version of shieldstun I think

 

[MookieRah]

This is against the old bull****ty version of the dash dance code:

1) Why not?

Because there is no way of "messing" this up. One reason why dash dancing was good is that it was another honed skill with your character. You have to learn the distance at which the initial dash frames went and then stick to it. Yes, increasing movement options are good, but increasing them too much is bad.

2) You can't really punish the slow turnaround animation. You can still jump, shield, attack, and dodge in this animation.

You can punish it, cause often times when someone does this they weren't expecting to do it. If you are on the other end of the dash dancing game you are simply waiting for them to get too close anyways and more often than not the defender would be able to react as faster than the person who whiffed the dash dance.

3) I didn't understand how movement could be overpowered.

It's because there should be some level of risk and reward. If you mess it up you deserve to be put into a worse position. Even though you can shield and jump or whatever from a whiffed dash dance, you are put in an undesirable position.

4) I completely agree. A tech chasing animation speed - up would be not to difficult though, and is probably already necessary anyways. This would be more than affordable with the lines MuBa's simple swap code saves.

Why advocate a fix for something that isn't broken that would in turn break something else? Also, if you increase the "tech chasing animation" you would make all rolls faster. If you make all rolls faster it would be way harder to punish mistakes. As it stands you can escape from things if you mix up your techs and rolls, and there is nothing wrong with it. Make things faster and it eliminates options for punishing. Reducing the effectiveness of punishing mistakes means that one can play sloppy and not have to worry, and I think that's BS.

You also don't understand that if you increase the speed of rolls that tech chasing may become nearly impossible for some characters. Your dash dance code doesn't speed up your character any, so why should you speed up the rolls? It's a shoddy solution to the problem, and as I pointed out there is no good reason to change it other than to have the game hold your hand and prevent you from learning a new technique.

5) Actually, I'm not sure how I did it, but you can still RAR with MuBa's code on. Which also means that you could possibly be "punished" because there's still a possible slow turnaround depending on how you input the dash.

It's really simple actually. What you did was a pivot bair. You ran forward, turned backwards and did a bair. This is a different trick altogether, and it just another way to do the same thing.

 

[Frogles]

A problem with 0 buffer is it destroyed Falcos dash cancel upsmash and as KayJay is saying lots of things become impossible/hard. Would putting the buffer to 1 still cause you to crouch after a fast fall? That was the biggest reason why I wanted to get rid of buffer.

 

[KayJay]

It would be cool if you could crouch cancel at any time, right now you have to dash till the starting dash animation is over, only after that you can crouch cancel.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

um mookie, i'm pretty sure the teching animation and rolling animation are 2 different things.

 

[MookieRah]

um mookie, i'm pretty sure the teching animation and rolling animation are 2 different things.

Speeding up the teching animation doesn't make sense as a solution to easier tech chasing. The tech roll is identical to the standard roll is it not?

In any case, the fact still stands that making tech related stuff faster isn't a way to fix it, cause your dash dance code doesn't increase any characters' actual running speed.

 

[Deleted member]

why would we need such a code?

 

[kupo15]

Beleive me, it is not possible, i thought that too, but when an auto-fire at 1/4 speed can't do it, it has to be impossible. (the auto-fire on this arcade controller is REALLY quick)

I pmed pw about seeing if he can fix 3/4 frame buffer. But if not and 1 works, Im all for it. Btw, the buffering code should not disable instant aerials because ganon can thunderstomp at 2 frames

On shielding during dash animation

Dash to powershield was quite useable in melee Kupo. Myself and several other people in my city would dash up powershield and downsmash (peach's) or upsmash(fox's).
Dash to shield is done regularly in vanilla brawl too as the initial dash animation is so short they can almost always get their shield out if someone attack while dashing. Why would you want to deny and option that is even in vanilla brawl?
All being able to shield during your initial dash does is add options. That is what we are trying to do, it allows more approachs and doesn't make it so that dashing is a bad thing and something you look for to punish every time you see it since you know they can't shield.

Yea? How many pros have you seen that actually implement this in their strategy? And as far as i know, you can't shield during the initial dash in VB

Awesome points

100% agree. Infinite DDIng is flat out stupid

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Speeding up the teching animation doesn't make sense as a solution to easier tech chasing. The tech roll is identical to the standard roll is it not?

In any case, the fact still stands that making tech related stuff faster isn't a way to fix it, cause your dash dance code doesn't increase any characters' actual running speed.

tech roll animation is not identical to the rolling animation.