COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Toadster5]

I guess my concern is that, at the moment, Brawl+ feels like a watered down version of Melee and nothing more. I don't think adding small shield trade-off tricks will do much to change that. If new mechanics are to be added I think they need to be flashy and fun to use to give the game the flamboyance that it needs to stick out from the other games. I think vanilla Brawl tried to do this with final smashes but since those are stupid for competitive play the game is just dry. If we try to be too conservative in order to get the approval of vanilla Brawl players this game isn't going to get more interesting.

 

[Rkey]

u should be able to final smash someone if u get them above 150% ^_^

tnemrot, I'm saying that I find all that "do things at cost of shield" sounds really weird and unsmashy, since I don't play any ohter fighting games. Smash is the only fighting game I play, I find the rest of them boring due to how complicated they are. Smash managed to keep things simple, and yet really fun: nintendo style ;D

Toadster: that's the reason I play brawl+ and stopped playing melee: Melee hurt my fingers. My fingers really took damage from playing melee, I trained until I had blisters. You shouldn't have to do things that fast to enjoy a game.

 

[Toadster5]

Toadster: that's the reason I play brawl+ and stopped playing melee: Melee hurt my fingers. My fingers really took damage from playing melee, I trained until I had blisters. You shouldn't have to do things that fast to enjoy a game.

I guess that's where personal preference takes over and it seems like most of the people working on this project agree with you. I love the speed and precision required to play Melee at a high level and when I try Brawl+ it seems like a step backward to me. I'm not trying to tell you guys that you are right or wrong. I'm just trying to share my perspective as someone who put a lot of time into Melee and thought Melee was basically the perfect game from a mechanics standpoint. But at least there are some people who still want to play Melee so I'm not entirely out of luck.

 

[Deleted member]

u should be able to final smash someone if u get them above 150% ^_^

tnemrot, I'm saying that I find all that "do things at cost of shield" sounds really weird and unsmashy, since I don't play any ohter fighting games. Smash is the only fighting game I play, I find the rest of them boring due to how complicated they are. Smash managed to keep things simple, and yet really fun: nintendo style ;D

Toadster: that's the reason I play brawl+ and stopped playing melee: Melee hurt my fingers. My fingers really took damage from playing melee, I trained until I had blisters. You shouldn't have to do things that fast to enjoy a game.

I know that. had it about a months ago but that was on my friend ragged controllers.
and it's can techSKILL for a reason, you need to have certain skill to do it. in melee this was more on quick fingers while brawl was more on the mindgames
we're trying to get the best out of al smash games

 

[shanus]

I guess that's where personal preference takes over and it seems like most of the people working on this project agree with you. I love the speed and precision required to play Melee at a high level and when I try Brawl+ it seems like a step backward to me. I'm not trying to tell you guys that you are right or wrong. I'm just trying to share my perspective as someone who put a lot of time into Melee and thought Melee was basically the perfect game from a mechanics standpoint. But at least there are some people who still want to play Melee so I'm not entirely out of luck.

I played melee competitively for years and an interesting observation is if you play melee falcon now with B+ falcon one after another, the difference in speed isnt that large besides the noticably higher overall grav causing shorter jumps / earlier deaths.

Do you know the main difference? How often you push buttons.


Its obviously different if you play as fox / falco for things such as multishines, but it really is a point of emphasizing that "less can be more" in regards to streamlining gameplay. Case in point, it truly is a matter of personal preference. I love both games, but they are entirely different in mechanics, but in speed I feel they are actually much closer than you give them credit for.

 

[Piety the Diety]

Brawl+ ftw

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I'm saying that I find all that "do things at cost of shield" sounds really weird and unsmashy, since I don't play any ohter fighting games. Smash is the only fighting game I play, I find the rest of them boring due to how complicated they are. Smash managed to keep things simple, and yet really fun: nintendo style ;D

I'd say this is where your lack of understanding of the genre as a whole comes from. You would be more familiar with that kind of trade-offs/mechanics and you would know how they have the potential to be beneficial to the competitive aspect of a game (provided that they're correctly implemented) if you had played more fighting games in general. And again, how is getting SA frames on some move at the expense of 1/3 shield "complicated"? It's not like this is about adding a tension meter, instant air dashes, FRCs and a burst all at once here. We're merely talking about a simple trade-off. I'm not even saying it should be added, but I do think it's worth testing if that is possible.

 

[SnowballBob33]

748 pages is a lot to read, I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up
We/you all should find some way to implement final smashes back into the game. Nintendo wasted a lot of time making them, and people don't use them because they aren't balanced. It would be cool if we could use some of the codes to make it so you are able to use them to add more depth to the game. They are character specific and it would be nice knowing one character may be weak as a fighter but if he got the smashball he is now a balanced person. Combos would have nice finishes knowing you could end them with a bang. B+ would now have something even more + about it. If they are too strong, they could have weaker power to be kind of like a strong smash. Also it would be better if you could activate them using A+B instead of just B.

How you could obtain them if the traditional way is flawed:
-Doing a long combo
-Living beyond a certain %
-Avoiding damage for a certain time period
-Losing

 

[GHNeko]

Stuff about smashballs

One word.

Items.



:V

 

[thesage]

One word.

Items.



:V

He was talking about final smashes and not smashballs...

It'd be pretty cool if we could use them like supers in other fighters... They'd have to be balance though...

 

[goodoldganon]

It won't be used in Brawl+ because many of them would need a MASSIVE retweaking, but Shanus and I want to implement a super meter after Brawl+ is done for nothing more then a fun code.

 

[bleyva]

748 pages is a lot to read, I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up
We/you all should find some way to implement final smashes back into the game. Nintendo wasted a lot of time making them, and people don't use them because they aren't balanced. It would be cool if we could use some of the codes to make it so you are able to use them to add more depth to the game. They are character specific and it would be nice knowing one character may be weak as a fighter but if he got the smashball he is now a balanced person. Combos would have nice finishes knowing you could end them with a bang. B+ would now have something even more + about it. If they are too strong, they could have weaker power to be kind of like a strong smash. Also it would be better if you could activate them using A+B instead of just B.

How you could obtain them if the traditional way is flawed:
-Doing a long combo
-Living beyond a certain %
-Avoiding damage for a certain time period
-Losing

this seems like a huge project in of itself, spending weeks debating how to buff/nerf which final smashes in what way......its simply not worth it, and, ironically, you really hit the nail on the head by saying "Nintendo wasted a lot of time making them".

not to mention the fact that final smashes really wouldnt mesh well with brawl+ imo; personally i like brawl+ for the added speed, momentum and general pace of action, and in the middle of a fast-paced heated battle, a final smash completely stops the action and many force you to sit there and watch as you helplessly get ****ed up (ie kirby's, falcon's). it just doesnt fit well into the competitive dynamic.

 

[Wingflier]

I completely agree about the Smashballs thing. They are a cool gimmick and fun to see once or twice but beyond that they are really lame and imbalanced.

Completely out of curiosity, and partly because I want to get better as a competitive player, what percentage do you guys set your handicap too?

I've been using 100% but after watching a lot of the videos, I think whatever you guys are using is much higher.

What's a good percentage to play at? Does 300% mean the most skill is required?

Also, aren't there heavy balance implications by cranking it up to 300? Obviously some characters are going to benefit much more from the buffer speed improvement than others..

Any help on this topic would be appreciated.

Wing

 

[shanus]

I completely agree about the Smashballs thing. They are a cool gimmick and fun to see once or twice but beyond that they are really lame and imbalanced.

Completely out of curiosity, and partly because I want to get better as a competitive player, what percentage do you guys set your handicap too?

I've been using 100% but after watching a lot of the videos, I think whatever you guys are using is much higher.

What's a good percentage to play at? Does 300% mean the most skill is required?

Also, aren't there heavy balance implications by cranking it up to 300? Obviously some characters are going to benefit much more from the buffer speed improvement than others..

Any help on this topic would be appreciated.

Wing

most people stay around 10% or 20% as higher precision is required due to smaller buffer window.

it works like this

0% -> 0 frames
10% -> 1 frame
etcetc
100%-->10 frames

and it caps out at 10 over 100.

 

[GHNeko]

Normally when you get better and get used to timing, you lower the buffer to reduce the amount of buffer mistakes you make.

I'm still somewhat high at 70% buffer. :V

I have no clue how people play with 0%

 

[Yeroc]

We're just awesome like that. ^_^

 

[SnowballBob33]

He was talking about final smashes and not smashballs...

It'd be pretty cool if we could use them like supers in other fighters... They'd have to be balance though...

Yea this is what I was thinking. I know it would take a lot of balance but that could be another thing the community worked on.

And most fighters have some sort of animation where you take damage and have to sit to watch the animation.

 

[shanus]

I had a fairly epic idea about Fs's a while back and I think itd be hella fun to use, (not necessarily in an official set, but here was the fun idea):

Characters would have a FS meter where they would need to deal a certain amount of damage before obtaining a FS. If you take damage or wait over time, it would deplete your FS meter slowly. It would be character specific so a character like Mk might have to deal like 300% whereas bowser would have to deal like 180%. Also, B-moves would not build up the FS meter (thanks leaf).

After your meter is full, you could enter your FS "aura mode" at any time allowing you to cancel any move / any moves lag at any point. Entering the FS aura mode would require 5 frames or so. When in FS mode, your next move would deal double KB.

I think this would be so epic in practice. Imagine bowser, he has his FS charged, shield fortresses and catches you on first hitbox. Enters FS mode and cancels all fortress and its lag and has to wait 5 frames. Jumps and lands a double KB uair for the ****!

 

[Wingflier]

So you mean to say that playing with no handicap at all actually requires the most skill?

Oh ****, I thought it was the other way around. I was playing B+ with no handicap for a long time, but cranked it up under the assumption that it would make me a better player.

The lower it is, the more skill that is required? Or is it not that "clear-cut"?

Wing

 

[GHNeko]

So you mean to say that playing with no handicap at all actually requires the most skill?

Oh ****, I thought it was the other way around. I was playing B+ with no handicap for a long time, but cranked it up under the assumption that it would make me a better player.

The lower it is, the more skill that is required? Or is it not that "clear-cut"?

Wing

Actually, playing with no handicap doesnt make you a better player. It just forces you to be more precise with controls. What makes you a better player is finding a handicap setting that's allows you to play the most efficiently.

Same reasoning for custom controls. To play more effiecently. :V

 

[Wingflier]

But in tournaments, aren't handicaps globally set to a certain percentage?

Or are they generally disabled in B+ tournaments?

The reason I'm asking is because I have absolutely no problem owning with a 0% handicap. I typically play timing critical characters anyways so its not the biggest concern.

I guess I'm probably worrying too much about it, I just want to know what the "tournament standard" is.

Wing

 

[shanus]

But in tournaments, aren't handicaps globally set to a certain percentage?

Or are they generally disabled in B+ tournaments?

The reason I'm asking is because I have absolutely no problem owning with a 0% handicap. I typically play timing critical characters anyways so its not the biggest concern.

I guess I'm probably worrying too much about it, I just want to know what the "tournament standard" is.

Wing

B+ handicaps only effect your personal buffer setting and nothing else. As such, it is akin to a personal "sensitivity" option like in a first person shooter.

To answer your question: its allowed in tournaments as it just lets a user decide how precise they want their inputs to be

 

[Wingflier]

Hmm but wouldn't that be imbalanced?

Doesn't a person who uses a higher percentage have a big advantage over someone without a his handicap on?

Maybe I still don't quite understand how "buffer speed" works.

The way it was explained to me was something about how long it takes your character to react where they would normally be unresponsive. So the higher your buffer, the quicker your character reacts in a "stunned" or "unresponsive" state. Therefore, the lower the handicap, the longer it takes to react in those situations.

I realize that this could be completely wrong. I have read the buffer speed description on the main Brawl+ thread several times and I still don't understand it.

Can someone try to explain to me again? I'm sorry

Wing

 

[kupo15]

bolded = corrected to display proper intentions, not representative of wbr

Wait, so the wbr has changed their minds on this idea as well as adding lag to air dodges, glairs and zairs?

On a side note, I will be away until next tues

 

[cman]

Hmm but wouldn't that be imbalanced?

Doesn't a person who uses a higher percentage have a big advantage over someone without a his handicap on?

Maybe I still don't quite understand how "buffer speed" works.

The way it was explained to me was something about how long it takes your character to react where they would normally be unresponsive. So the higher your buffer, the quicker your character reacts in a "stunned" or "unresponsive" state. Therefore, the lower the handicap, the longer it takes to react in those situations.

I realize that this could be completely wrong. I have read the buffer speed description on the main Brawl+ thread several times and I still don't understand it.

Can someone try to explain to me again? I'm sorry

Wing

Buffers allow you to input a new action before the old action is completely finished. For example, you might input a jump say... 3 frames before an aerial is finished. With no buffer, the jump input will be ignored since the aerial hasn't ended. With a high enough buffer (30% or higher in this case), the jump activates on the first frame after your aerial has finished. It's not broken since it doesn't actually let you activate the jump any sooner than normal, just lets you input the command earlier

 

[goodoldganon]

Ignore this, Shanus's post is better.

 

[shanus]

Buffer is like an input window. Like I'll make a crude example here with ganon thunderstorming.

A player can be pressing jump and be able to press down air while jumping. By having a larger buffer window, during this jump animation, the player will have a large window to press the action of down+a for a down aerial to happen instantly out of the jump animation. So if you have a 10 frame window, and the jump animation is 5 frames, you effectively can guarantee an instant aerial out of your jump if you buffer it during the jump animation.

However, as you can do inputs during an animation, having a larger buffer window can also cause sloppiness. Mistakes can occur such that you were hitting down cstick and get pushed off the edge. All of a sudden you might be dairing as ganondorf off the edge to your death as you buffered a downA before you got pushed off the edge.

So less buffer means you can be much more precise with your actions. You can still thunderstorm, but itll be harder as you will need to have better timing. However, you will have greater guaranteed control of your character as you will have less of a window for things to be "buffered."

there is no true "absolute" best buffer to choose, it all comes down to personal preference

edit: triple ninja'd

 

[Wingflier]

Oh sweet, I finally understand. Cool that makes more sense now.

Thanks a whole bunch for clearing that up for me guys.

Wing

edit: Shanus, a little off-topic, but not really. What program did you use to record that little bit of Brawl action (your sig) and then what program did you use to turn it into a GIF that you could use as your sig?

I guess its a little off-topic but not really since all I want to do is pimp Brawl+ and make it more popular.

 

[Problem2]

jump/grav MOD KUPO
* 065A9200 000000E0
* 0048DDA0 014ADDA0
* 028C00C0 036BDDA0
* 046C00C0 05CC00C0
* 066B00C0 079C00C0
* 084ADDA0 095B00C0
* 0A6ADDA0 0B8BDDA0
* 0C6BDDA0 0D6ADDA0
* 0E7A00C0 0F16FF40
* 119C00C0 12BC00C0
* 133A00C0 14ACDDA0
* 1588EE80 1648EE80
* 178C00C0 184A00C0
* 195ADDA0 1A9AEE80
* 1B5ADDA0 1DABEE80
* 1E8D00C0 1F79EE80
* 20B020C0 214C00C0
* 228BDDA0 235ADDA0
* 2536FF40 298ADDA0
* 2C7ADDA0 2EAEDDA0
* 2F34FF40 3F953F7D
* 3F59999A 3F666666
* 3F733333 3F800000
* 3F833333 3F866666
* 3F89999A 3F8CCCCD
* 3F900000 3F933333
* 3F966666 3F99999A
* 3F9BD37A 3FAAAAAB
* 3FB33333 3ECCCCCC

How does this code work? Are there variables that you can change because I want to set downgrav to 1.3 and adjust the launch power for the cast accordingly.

 

[shanus]

Char ID section begins from 00 through 2F.

The vars go:
XXYZABCD

XX=char id
Y=sh
Z=FH/DJ
A=FF
B=DGrav
C=FGrav
D=filler (keep at 0)

Dgrav wont adjust jump height, (only fgrav will effect reaching the apex height). DGrav will only apply after the apex has been reached, so if you change your Dgrav value, your jump heights wont need to be readjusted unless the dgrav breaks some tight frame moves

values work as follows:

0=.8, 1=.85, 2=.9, ... 4=1., 5=1.025, 6=1.05, etcetc, A=1.15, etcetc D=1.25, E=1.3, F=1.4

 

[kupo15]

My jump/grav scales is not the same as the plussery's. Here is the my current physics and scale

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5948066&postcount=158

If you want to keep everyone with universal dgrav (which I recommend) then the best way to go about it would be to adjust the scale for the dgrav that way you don't have to touch the character lines. The scale starts the line after sonic (2F) and ends at the second to last grouping.

So basically,

change 0 scale to 1.0833333333333333333333333333333
change D scale to 1.1304347826086956521739130434783
change E scale to 1.1818181818181818181818181818182
change F scale to 1.3

 

[Problem2]

Char ID section begins from 00 through 2F.

The vars go:
XXYZABCD

XX=char id
Y=sh
Z=FH/DJ
A=FF
B=DGrav
C=FGrav
D=filler (keep at 0)

Dgrav wont adjust jump height, (only fgrav will effect reaching the apex height). DGrav will only apply after the apex has been reached, so if you change your Dgrav value, your jump heights wont need to be readjusted unless the dgrav breaks some tight frame moves

values work as follows:

0=.8, 1=.85, 2=.9, ... 4=1., 5=1.025, 6=1.05, etcetc, A=1.15, etcetc D=1.25, E=1.3, F=1.4

Wow shanus. That looks scary. I need to go find the character ID chart, and get to cracking.

@Kupo: Well I meant to say upgrav (the one that affects your jump)

 

[goodoldganon]

It's not nearly as bad as it sounds. Here is the Character ID chart

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5950239&postcount=174

 

[kupo15]

Wow shanus. That looks scary. I need to go find the character ID chart, and get to cracking.

This method looks a lot nicer if that is what you are after xD

So basically,

change 0 scale to 1.0833333333333333333333333333333
change D scale to 1.1304347826086956521739130434783
change E scale to 1.1818181818181818181818181818182
change F scale to 1.3

 

[Phantom1987]

I got another dumb idea xD!! Imagine a code were you can hold a button while landing to reduce the friction!! you could land backwards and slide out from the ledge (sexier ledge game) move faster through platforms... it would be similar to waveland.. I know.. sounds stupid... even though, maybe it can give someone a better idea ..

 

[Rudra]

I got another dumb idea xD!! Imagine a code were you can hold a button while landing to reduce the friction!! you could land backwards and slide out from the ledge (sexier ledge game) move faster through platforms... it would be similar to waveland.. I know.. sounds stupid... even though, maybe it can give someone a better idea ..

What about a waveland of some sort? Like if you held a diagonal direction upon fastfalling from a short hop (or full hop), you'll get a slide? It wouldnt be as abusable as Wavedashing at least, and it may add something to the ledge game and stage game. I just wonder if its going to be possible to code...

Spoiler

Just throwing that out there...

10chars

 

[Phantom1987]

well then it is not so dumb xDDDD.. sry I just don't like reading all the pages.. xD.

Another stupid idea.. make posible to attack (it can be only tilts) while shielding... you know.. like with up-B xD (just giving ideas XD)

 

[Rudra]

well then it is not so dumb xDDDD.. sry I just don't like reading all the pages.. xD.

Another stupid idea.. make posible to attack (it can be only tilts) while shielding... you know.. like with up-B xD (just giving ideas XD)

I'm not certain about that one. UpBs OoS are usually gtfo moves, some with higher risks and more utility than others. It probably isnt necessary seeing as one can tilt after dropping the shield. (since it comes down so quickly) It does sound interesting, but I dont think its a good idea...

 

[CloneHat]

I think the Ivisaur taking more KB from fire should be taken out. It's a nerf that is completely pointless and gives needlessly bad matchups.

 

[VietGeek]

I think the Ivisaur taking more KB from fire should be taken out. It's a nerf that is completely pointless and gives needlessly bad matchups.

I'm quite sure if they had the code, the "It's super effective!" mechanic would have been removed a long time ago.