COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[GHNeko]

I think the Ivisaur taking more KB from fire should be taken out. It's a nerf that is completely pointless and gives needlessly bad matchups.

Okay. Remove a weakness on a good character. :V

 

[Revven]

Okay. Remove a weakness on a good character. :V

Ivy is so overrated and you know that, Neko. This was a dumb mechanic just like Lucario's Aura Stock is or even just as dumb as ASL was. It's a character specific weakness that just wasn't needed and hurts the character a lot, making anyone with fire moves have a distinct form of advantage against Ivy. Not only that, but, Ivy is still definitely lacking. His main weakness is his ****ty recovery and overall no offstage game. He pales deeply in comparison to Olimar and anyone else with a tether only recovery.

Removing the fire weakness won't make Ivy super good... it's removing a ******** weakness put on a character to limit them even more. It's just as bad as Stamina for all three, especially the moves themselves making you lose more stamina as time would go on (really? A flipping A move will cost you 1 second of your stamina timer? Super lame, thank God stamina is gone).

Thank goodness the other type effects don't hurt Ivy, Squirtle, or Zard, else the mechanic would be even worse (imagine electric attacks being more effective on Squirtle or Zard, that would be terrible). Thankfully, Sakurai isn't that stupid.

 

[Shell]

I think it'd be worth removing on the individual Pkmn, but leaving it on the trainer, if that's possible.

@Rudra: I had a similar brainwave re. FFing then rolling the stick in a horizontal direction as you land to do a small waveland.

 

[GHNeko]

I think it'd be worth removing on the individual Pkmn, but leaving it on the trainer, if that's possible.

...Right. Give people more reason to drop PT and pick up individual. As it stands, I believe PT should have more advantages than wild pokes.

 

[Wingflier]

I think the Ivisaur taking more KB from fire should be taken out. It's a nerf that is completely pointless and gives needlessly bad matchups.

Are you f*cking serious? I didn't even know about this little "feature". Man Sakurai failed so hard on this game. What a joke.

...Right. Give people more reason to drop PT and pick up individual. As it stands, I believe PT should have more advantages than wild pokes.

There are maybe a thousand reasons why this is stupid on so many levels. I feel like I'm some how lowering myself by having to explain even one of them.

First of all, any COMPETITIVE player would never pick an individual pokemon when they could pick Pokemon Trainer. The only reason the individual pokemon are an option is for noobs who keep accidentally pressing down-b and start getting pissed off because it keeps switching. No self-respecting player would ever force himself into a single character, without a down-b I might add, when he could have 3 without a down-b.

So basically, you're saying you want to punish noobs even more than they are already being punished by having a character without a down-b. Way to go hoss.

Secondly, PT already DOES have a huge advantage over individual pokemon. He can SWITCH between them. The switching even offering a tactical advantage in some situations because you dodge some attacks with it. It's also an advantage because all 3 pokemon have such a different playstyle and moveset that you can keep any opponent on their toes.

Why you would want to punish noobs and buff a character that is already massively better than its 3 individual counterparts makes absolutely no sense.

On top of that, it's ******** from a consistency standpoint. Which is the main reason, aside from the huge balance issues, that Sakurai is ********. Why in god's name does Ivysaur get the shaft against fire-based characters and attacks while Squirtle and Charizard are completely typical in that respect? It makes absolutely no sense and it only adds extra weaknesses to a character that wasn't anywhere top-tier in the first place. Especially considering the stamina issue in vBrawl.

Using any sort of logic or decent scientific method, the only reasonable conclusion is too remove it, on all forms of Ivysaur. Balancing a game by making certain characters weak to certain forms of attack without any legitimate basis or universal consistency for the decision is beyond ridiculous.

Wing

p.s. While we're on the issue of Ivysaur, you guys nerfed razor leaf too hard! It barely stuns them and it's supposed to be getting critical strikes! It was a lot better before you nerfed it several times.

 

[CloneHat]

PT definitely has the advantage of being 3 counterpicks, so in retrospect I can't see why anyone would use individuals. But anyway, the element code should be removed, along with any that exist in the other Pokemon.

 

[VietGeek]

There are specific strengths and weaknesses to selecting PT or independent Pokemon.

PT has a built-in CP system, and to use PT to his maximum potential, one must learn of the qualities of all three Pokemon, and their match-ups. The learning curve overall is extremely high. The reward is the ability to counterpick in real-time and also serves as great tool against players inexperienced in the match-up. It offers different advantages that independent Pokemon do not offer, yet loses out to what these ind. Pokemon do offer: concrete qualities.

Independent Pokemon allows for one to receive a static advantage and disadvantage of the character at the price of losing a built-in CP system. One would say it's much easier to learn one Pokemon, and one does not have to deal with the forced inconsistency of the overall match simply because one of the Pokemon is lackluster against the character in question, this holding the player back unnecessarily when he or she could be ****** with wild Squirtle.

We know that Brawl heavily focuses on match-ups, perhaps more so than the previous Smash installments simply due to its engine.

The rock-paper-scissors-like effective and resistance system of the Pokemon Trainer is a novelty at best, but only serves as a minor hindrance, making PT counter himself in a way. Melee Water and Grass attacks only exist (to my knowledge) within Squirtle and Ivysaur. The mechanic needlessly gives Ivysaur a weakness that is more widely exploitable without any merit except that "Sakurai wanted to." The system was put in place so PT could counter certain aspects of his own characters as in Pokemon. However he failed to see that he further shafted Ivysaur, who already has a hefty weakness due to his lack of offstage game. The needless gimmick further holds him back.

 

[GHNeko]

First of all, any COMPETITIVE player would never pick an individual pokemon when they could pick Pokemon Trainer. The only reason the individual pokemon are an option is for noobs who keep accidentally pressing down-b and start getting pissed off because it keeps switching. No self-respecting player would ever force himself into a single character, without a down-b I might add, when he could have 3 without a down-b.

...What? Tell that to the 11 squirtle users at BtL. There are plenty of reasons why a competitive player would pick a single poke over PT as a whole.

So basically, you're saying you want to punish noobs even more than they are already being punished by having a character without a down-b. Way to go hoss.

...I...I dont even know how to respond to this...

Secondly, PT already DOES have a huge advantage over individual pokemon. He can SWITCH between them. The switching even offering a tactical advantage in some situations because you dodge some attacks with it. It's also an advantage because all 3 pokemon have such a different playstyle and moveset that you can keep any opponent on their toes.

And you know what? There is an advantage over PT by picking wild pokes. You're not forced to switch AT ALL. It's a trade off holmes.

Why you would want to punish noobs and buff a character that is already massively better than its 3 individual counterparts makes absolutely no sense.

...What are you going on about? There are more reasons to use wild pokes over PT. I want there to be more reasons to pick PT over wild pokes.

PT definitely has the advantage of being 3 counterpicks, so in retrospect I can't see why anyone would use individuals. But anyway, the element code should be removed, along with any that exist in the other Pokemon.

...Just because you have control over 3 characters mid match doesnt always make PT the best choice.

You ever heard that phrase...jack of all trades, master of none? You're essentially maining 3 characters by maining PT, where as if you picked a single poke, you'd be much better with that single poke then if you mained PT.

All and all, it's generally perference when it comes down to that. BUT

PT has the advantage of having 3 characters and being able to Character CP mid match.

But Wild Poke's have the advantage over not being force switched.

But when you throw in personal perference, there are plenty of reaons to pick wild pokemon over PT.


EDIT: God **** it. Ninja'd

 

[CloneHat]

I see your point, I wasn't aware forced switch was still on. That evens it out so you have to know EVERY Pokemon to play PT, forcing you to adapt, so I think individuals and PT are balanced very well.

 

[GHNeko]

Imo, not really, sure, you have the ablility to CP mid match with PT, but the learning curve is really high and you have to put 3x as much time rather than just using a wild poke.

THEN, there are times where someone you're fighting like MK or Marth or Snake hard/softcounter 2 out of 3 of your pokemon, then you're left with a single one who isnt as skilled as if you had just mained that one pokemon.

 

[CloneHat]

Like you said, even if you master all 3 pokemon, if you are KOed, you may come back with a very bad matchup poke. Getting a good hit in will sometimes let you switch, however. I'd say PT has a larger arsenal, but managing it can be a hassle. With one poke, you always play to the same familiar character, but you can't change situationally.

 

[GHNeko]

If everyone is balanced, and you know your matchups and you're good with your character and are of equal skill. Why would you need to switch situationally?

 

[CloneHat]

If everyone is balanced, and you know your matchups and you're good with your character and are of equal skill. Why would you need to switch situationally?

I'd say it isn't an advantage as much as it is a feature. You can use the switch as you like in a match, though I'm no PT player. It isn't necessary, but certain characters are better at certain percents (finishers, damage builders) and maybe the opponent had CPed you. You could just switch back to a better character after the match started. Again, it isn't a large advantage at all, but it makes for a different playstyle.

 

[GHNeko]

Meh. I still believe that PT has less advantages than Wild Pokes.

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, there is always one match in a set where you would not want to pick PT... ever, and that's on your cpick, since you would be better off just picking whatever pokemon is strongest in the matchup. The first match and on your opponent's cpick are where PT's advantages lie. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and it'll just be a trait of the character - if you're good with all three pokemon, he is simply a really safe option due to being hard to cpick.

 

[CloneHat]

I prefer wild too (less hassle, more straightforward), but we'll see how the metagame develops.

EDIT: Ninja'd by leaf! You basically summed it up.

 

[Rudra]

Remove the Weaknesses

Fully agree with this. Its nothing but trouble for Ivysaur and Squirtle definately doesnt need a resistance to any type of move =/.

@Rudra: I had a similar brainwave re. FFing then rolling the stick in a horizontal direction as you land to do a small waveland.

Cool . I think it'd be a nice mechanic for air to ground movement, especially around platforms and edges. Of course it may need more thought, but I think its something worth looking into when the more important stuff is done and the hackers dont have such a large load to tend to.

 

[thesage]

Well removing the Fire weakness actually could hurt ivysaur in ONE matchup vs. Ness pk fire will be more effective against him since it won't send him farther back.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

I know this isn't a help, or Q+A thread. But I've tried getting help for this about 3 different times today, and I havn't had any help. I figured since this thread is a little more active, I'd ask here.

I can't get the single gtc+gameconfig method to work for me to add more lines, or the double gtc method to work for me.

I'm using 3.1 ntsc with the latest GeckoOS (1.91) Gecko freezes every time after the "SD codes found. Applying." It goes to a blank black screen and stays there, and the Wii stops beeping as well. I am using textures.

 

[GHNeko]

Switch to snapshot method.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

ok

10char

 

[Rkey]

Don't remove them, add them to their full extent! Involve electricity and darkness too! Now that would be awesome ^_^

Don't know if it's possible, but making squirtle vulnerable to electricity and Ivy resitant too it would balance that out, and adding darkness would be awesome.

 

[GHNeko]

That's obviously the pokemon in you that's talking. :V

 

[Eaode]

ivysaur is weak to fire and squirtle isn't weak to electricity? and Charizard doesn't **** Ice Climbers?

Does Sakurai Play pokemon or did he put in that weakness for the lulz?

 

[GHNeko]

for the Lulz. Obviously.

Havn't you seen how well he's been hardcore trolling the Smash community?

 

[Almas]

Tommy, that kind of problem is usually caused by the codes involved, not the loading method. Try booting with a standard .gct.

 

[Rkey]

for the Lulz. Obviously.

Havn't you seen how well he's been hardcore trolling the Smash community?

Please tell me you're serious, please!

 

[Wingflier]

I thought that the automatic switching of pokemon after you get KOed had been disabled in Brawl+. I thought you had to hold down "R" now or something.

Did they change it back to the way it was in vBrawl or something?

Either way, I still think PT is the better choice. Sure, you may not be as good with the individual pokemon, but you can always switch back to the one you're best with if you are in a bad matchup.

You talk about individual pokemon like they are good because everybody in entire world only mains one character. When in actuality, most people have multiple mains. Why not just make your multiple mains all of PT's pokemon? Then you can kill 2 birds with one stone...

Overplaying one character will probably make you tired of him and burnt out anyways.

Wing

 

[GHNeko]

I thought that the automatic switching of pokemon after you get KOed had been disabled in Brawl+. I thought you had to hold down "R" now or something.

Did they change it back to the way it was in vBrawl or something?

Either way, I still think PT is the better choice. Sure, you may not be as good with the individual pokemon, but you can always switch back to the one you're best with if you are in a bad matchup.

You talk about individual pokemon like they are good because everybody in entire world only mains one character. When in actuality, most people have multiple mains. Why not just make your multiple mains all of PT's pokemon? Then you can kill 2 birds with one stone...

Overplaying one character will probably make you tired of him and burnt out anyways.

Wing

Nah. PT is force switched in Brawl+. That is why wild pokemon exist.

I talk about wild poke like they are good because there are people who only use 1 out of the 3 characters. I never said that they would only main a single charcter out of the roster. There are people who dont do well with fast small characters, or characters with bad recoveries, or heavy characters by nature.

Which is why I said, by bringing personal preference, there are more reasons to go for the individual pokes over PT.

And there are people (not alot) that main only a single character (lol mk in normal Brawl)

usually, you're supposed to have at least a secondary, but people Dark.Pch go solo peach in tourneys. :V

And over playing one character will not make you tired of him and burnt out. At least not normally.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: this was at wing
that barely makes sense.

"switch to the one you're best with if you are in a best matchup"
why would you pick the pokemon that you are not best with if it is a bad matchup too.
and if you are gonna get counterpicked you just need to anticipate a bit on who your opponent is likely gonna pick. also, you still have to swap on death, making you play only parts of the match with your "best" and other parts with not your best and also a bad matchup.

and also the pokemons barely cover all matchups well, but that is just me

 

[GHNeko]

They dont. They all have trouble with specific characters like Marth, MK, and Shiek.

 

[Wingflier]

Even if this is true, all three individual pokemon have a natural disadvantage alone, which is not having a down-b. This may not sound like a big deal, but it is because sometimes the person you're playing against may barely win because of that extra attack.

Sure, there are some characters in the game who have a special that is useless as it is, but those will probably get fixed eventually. Where as the individual pokemon will never get one, regardless of how good the rest of the specials are.

So I understand where you're coming from wanting to nerf individual pokemon. But they are already nerfed in relation to all the rest of the characters in the game. Ivysaur shouldn't get nerfed even harder than he already is.

Wing

 

[Phantom1987]

is there a possibility that in the future we can swap specific b-moves from one character to another?? then maybe we can fill those spaces..

 

[GHNeko]

Even if this is true, all three individual pokemon have a natural disadvantage alone, which is not having a down-b. This may not sound like a big deal, but it is because sometimes the person you're playing against may barely win because of that extra attack.

Sure, there are some characters in the game who have a special that is useless as it is, but those will probably get fixed eventually. Where as the individual pokemon will never get one, regardless of how good the rest of the specials are.

So I understand where you're coming from wanting to nerf individual pokemon. But they are already nerfed in relation to all the rest of the characters in the game. Ivysaur shouldn't get nerfed even harder than he already is.

Wing

The lack of a Down B doesnt count as a disadvantage as it serves no purpose other than to switch. :V

I dont want to nerf the individual pokes. I just want there to be more reason to pick PT over maining a specific character, because the single pokes are alot more appealing than just PT. Gurukid is the ONLY person who I know uses PT on a basis, and even then, in tourneys he simply goes squirtle. :V

I guess I'm saying I want there to be more reasons to play PT than there are to pick a wild pokemon.

 

[GHNeko]

EDIT: Double post fail.

 

[Wingflier]

The lack of a Down B doesnt count as a disadvantage as it serves no purpose other than to switch. :V

But that IS a purpose. Aside from the fact that it can create problems for your opponent when you switch between pokemon and thus playstyles, you can dodge attacks with it.

I dont want to nerf the individual pokes. I just want there to be more reason to pick PT over maining a specific character, because the single pokes are alot more appealing than just PT. Gurukid is the ONLY person who I know uses PT on a basis, and even then, in tourneys he simply goes squirtle. :V

I guess I'm saying I want there to be more reasons to play PT than there are to pick a wild pokemon.

In my opinion, there are PLENTY of reasons to pick PT over individual pokemon. You just need to give it more time. You said it yourself, PT is one of the hardest characters to master because of the natural disadvantage of having to master 3 entire characters in one.

It takes time, effort, and practice to get down. Considering that B+ tournaments are very new, it's going to take some time for people who main PT to be comfortable enough with him to use him in a competitive scene.

However, I surmise that when they do start appearing, they will do very well. Especially because nobody will be ready for him.

I think you should have patience rather than jumping to conclusions about why nobody wants to play PT.

Wing

 

[CloneHat]

With PT, keyword is variety. Can help against being CPed, and to put it simply, lets you change your character during a match. That's about it, because the swap after death forces you to use all the pokes, good matchup or not.

@Wing, this probably makes him SLIGHTLY WORSE than individuals because he is so annoyingly situational. And down B is worthless, it cannot be used to dodge attacks, unless it's something like rest, and a Jiggly player like myself isn't going to go for a rest while the opponent has enough free time to pull off a down B.

 

[cman]

The lack of a Down B doesnt count as a disadvantage as it serves no purpose other than to switch. :V

I dont want to nerf the individual pokes. I just want there to be more reason to pick PT over maining a specific character, because the single pokes are alot more appealing than just PT. Gurukid is the ONLY person who I know uses PT on a basis, and even then, in tourneys he simply goes squirtle. :V

I guess I'm saying I want there to be more reasons to play PT than there are to pick a wild pokemon.

There are a lot of problems problems with PT switching mid stock though, and mid stock is really the only time that PT could get an advantage match-up wise. PT either has to put on a fair amount of damage then drop all the pressure completely or risk gettting comboed/killed depending on the percentage. The PT is generally either going to be trying to switch from a bad matchup at the beginning of a stock, or to a bad match up at the end of a stock, and either situation leaves a disadvantage beyond whatever is inherently present. If they start on a bad MU at the beginning of a stock, they are going to either risk eating a combo and wasting half of the advantaged stock if they try to switch right away, or try to build up damage despite the bad matchup and then hit the other person away to switch, again likely leaving them with half the advantaged stock gone.

On the other side, the PT tries to switch at the end of a good MU to die on the bad one. This keeps the PT from living nearly as long without the other player even landing a kill (!), or risks him losing the stock on the good MU and wasting half a stock on the first situation. These problems both occur because of the natural limitations of switching, so when played as a single character, PT suffers a pretty big weakness regardless of which character he faces.

You could either give each poke a buff to try to counteract that weakness, but I suspect this would be very very difficult to get decent universal buff to them because it would destroy some MUs. Alternatively, since you can't speed up the switch time, we could alter the switch mechanics to allow you to go forward or backward. However, this might break the character by allowing you to stay only on the best two pokes for any given matchup, and not even worry about switching mid-stock, erasing both a MU weakness and the switch weakness.

 

[CloneHat]

Always being able to go the best pokemon defeats the purpose of PT, but I like the idea of shortening switch time, which would allow for actually reasonable swaps after getting a decent hit on your opponent.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I don't see any purpose in wanting be forced to switch characters mid match. Out of the 3 characters, you are going to have a best who you feel most comfortable with, whether that be a matchup or playstyle. Changing between the 3 doesn't have much purpose unless fighting another PT, or a Samus/Zelda who wants to switch. All you are doing when you switch is bringing in a bad matchup or getting rid of a good one.

The whole switching to fit the enemy is useless because its the same enemy. PT may be useful in teams if at one point in time you must fight 1 opponent and then switch to counter another. Other than that, switching has basically no benefit. All you do is hope that your opponent has trouble fighting against that poke.

If you want to make PT more useful, then lower his switch time. That way you could switch from poke to poke more easily to be able to get the kill if necessary, while still being penalized for being stuck with the switching on death, or choose wild poke and keep your strengths/weaknesses all match like a regular char.