COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Deleted member]

The whole switching to fit the enemy is useless because its the same enemy. PT may be useful in teams if at one point in time you must fight 1 opponent and then switch to counter another. Other than that, switching has basically no benefit. All you do is hope that your opponent has trouble fighting against that poke.

Counterpicking. Tournament rules.

 

[Wingflier]

Like tnemrot has said, PT can be used as a counterpick in a tournament. Therefore, the person he is facing would have had no idea he was going to pick PT, and therefore can't pick a character which is good against all pokemon.

Which by the way, I don't think there is any character that is an advantage matchup against all pokemon. There may be some that are 50/50 matchups or more on all 3 pokes but I dare say nothing past than that. All 3 of their playstyles are so dynamically different, it would be hard for me to think that any one character counters all three of them, if B+ is truly balanced.

There ARE however, situations where all 3 pokemon may have a good matchup AGAINST other characters. This is definitely possible. Or even 2 out of 3 pokemon having a good matchup against many characters. This is a good reason why PT could be a good counterpick.

Besides, he probably wouldn't be that bad of an initial pick either. As I said before, no character is going to have great matchups against all 3.

PTs real problem is as stated before: His switch time leaves him really vunerable to combos. If perhaps it were lowered a bit, people wouldn't be so upset about getting force switched between stock.

Wing

 

[GHNeko]

stuff

Besides, He Probably Wouldn't Be That Bad Of An Initial Pick Either. As I Said Before, No Character Is Going To Have Great Matchups Against All 3.

Wing

marth And Mk

100000000:v

 

[Wingflier]

I disagree. I don't think Marth and MK are positive matchups on all 3.

 

[Wavedash Master]

I disagree. I don't think Marth and MK are positive matchups on all 3.

And your supporting claim is?

 

[GHNeko]

I disagree. I don't think Marth and MK are positive matchups on all 3.

So what you're saying, or at least what I assume you're saying, based of your words is that one out of those 3 characters has at least a 55:45 Macth up in their favor against marth/mk?

 

[Wingflier]

No. To have a positive matchup against any character you must have a greater than 50% "advantage" over them.

I simply think that at least one of the matchups for Marth and MK is 50/50 or possibly greater.

@Tribow: What is your supporting evidence that Marth and MK have advantageous matchups against Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard?

Is it simply because they had advantageous matchups against all 3 in vBrawl? Because I'm sorry to say that MK's matchups were mostly all advantageous, with a few equal matchups.

This isn't vBrawl anymore, and I don't think the same rules apply, sorry.

Squirtle is in the "featherweight" category, being quick and agile, his movespeed, attacks, aerials and smashes all coming out relatively quickly with little wind down.

Ivysaur is closer to the "middleweight" category, being significantly slower, but having great range on many of his moves, as well as the ability to stop aerial approach, and having some of the most powerful aerial attacks in the game.

Charizard is definitely in the "heavyweight" category, being even signifcantly slower than Ivysaur, but extremely powerful when most of his attacks connect. He has decent aerials, good recovery, and a beautiful meteor smash. In fact, Charizard is probably one of the most well-rounded heavyweights in the game; at least in Brawl.

By saying that all three of these characters have negative matchups against Marth and MK, you are basically implying that Marth and MK have advantages over all close-ranged featherweight, middleweight, and heavyweight characters. Unless you can offer some reasons why these three pokemon are so inadequate for their "class".

So let's hear it. Why do Marth and MK own every pokemon?

Wing

 

[Deleted member]

there is a reason EVERYBODY has included marth and MK in the top 10 list thread.

it's called top tier.
also, you only mention the good things about each character.
take for example ivysaur, who's recovery gets ***** by both MK and marth.
and charizard, being very slow, against 2 of the fastest characters of the cast, both also having a LOT of range.
the only one that might do okay against them is squirtle, but he also lacks range against the 2. I would say 55/45 at BEST for squirtle.

and even if squirtle had this advantage, it would be useless since you are playing 2 HORRIBLE matchups 2/3th of the time, and only have a MINOR good matchup 1/3th of the time.

think about that

 

[StarcraftLedZeppelin]

And over playing one character will not make you tired of him and burnt out. At least not normally.

I've put sooo much time into mastering Snake, that I barely play him anymore.

Snake a lone has 54 hours of play time on my Wii.

 

[Rkey]

I just wanted to give some positive feedback based on what me and my brother experienced the other day. We played B+ for a while, and then tested melee.

I'm serious, to both me and my brother B+ has surpassed melee. When I look at both games, I think of B+ as a smoother more balanced game with better graphics. A game which allows u to do as you wish with AT's like RAR and the game not caring which way your characters face is looking to decide whether you can grab the ledge or not accomplishing this. And most importantly, you can play as your favourite character whoever that is since all of them are equally good (close to at least, a lot closer than melee ever was).

So thanks again for this wonderful game which I will probably enjoy for many years to come. I will say again that I love you, not caring for the consequences or the risks of doing so since I like this game so much.

I love you, and thanks again <3

 

[GHNeko]

I've put sooo much time into mastering Snake, that I barely play him anymore.

Snake a lone has 54 hours of play time on my Wii.

I said at least not normally. :V

 

[StarcraftLedZeppelin]

54 hours is abnormal?

 

[GHNeko]

...Not what I meant. I meant that its uncommon for people to spend alot of time on a single character and then get tired of them. At least it is to me. As I've met plenty of people who have used a character since launch and STILL use them. I've used Marth since Melee til now and he's always been my main and I have yet to bore of him to the point where I dont want to use him or I hardly use him.

 

[CloneHat]

Wingflier, Marth and MK are good against every pokemon, and even if they were not, it is still PT, who must switch to a different character every stock.

 

[GHNeko]

MK is better against pokemon than Marth is. Squirtle is best 60:40 MK really. :V

 

[jokey665]

:V

?

 

[GHNeko]

I don't think I've laughed like that in a while. GG.

 

[Arkaether]

?

You, my good sir, have just won at life.

 

[Wingflier]

It just doesn't seem quite fair to me that one character, like Marth or MK, could still have an advantage on a majority of their matchups. As I said before, all three pokemon are so different in playstyle that it really makes one wonder how balanced the game can be if any one character can have 60/40 matchups or greater against all of them.

Sure, it could just be pure coincidence, but since that character is Metaknight, we know thatit's not. It would be different if it was someone like Donkey Kong or Peach...

If B+ is every truly to be balanced, then there shouldn't be characters that have like a 75% or greater positive matchup ratio. In fact, in an ideal world, every character vs. every character would always be 50/50, but this of course, is impossible.

However, getting every character to have about a 50% advantage to disadvantage matchup ratio is probably not.

As long as there are characters that have favorable matchups against the majority of the other characters in the game, it will never really be fair.

In my opinion, this is the issue here. Not the Pokemon Trainer.

Wing

 

[StarcraftLedZeppelin]

...Not what I meant. I meant that its uncommon for people to spend alot of time on a single character and then get tired of them. At least it is to me. As I've met plenty of people who have used a character since launch and STILL use them. I've used Marth since Melee til now and he's always been my main and I have yet to bore of him to the point where I dont want to use him or I hardly use him.

I guess it's just my play style then, I literally try to play every one. Jigglypuff and maybe donkey kong are the only characters I'm really bad with. Like when I play against people I try not to use the same char twice, and if I want to repeat a char I go through 9 other ones first.

I just had some urge in me to try and master snake, just because.. well he's Solid Snake.

 

[GHNeko]

It just doesn't seem quite fair to me that one character, like Marth or MK, could still have an advantage on a majority of their matchups. As I said before, all three pokemon are so different in playstyle that it really makes one wonder how balanced the game can be if any one character can have 60/40 matchups or greater against all of them.

1 character having 60/40 match ups against 3 characters in Brawl+ isnt uncommon. If anything we want 60/40 and 55/45 and even 65/35 match ups as that encourages counterpicking.

Sure, it could just be pure coincidence, but since that character is Metaknight, we know thatit's not. It would be different if it was someone like Donkey Kong or Peach...

Or you know, Marth and MK just have a move set that counters pokemon (ie gimping and range)

If B+ is every truly to be balanced, then there shouldn't be characters that have like a 75% or greater positive matchup ratio. In fact, in an ideal world, every character vs. every character would always be 50/50, but this of course, is impossible.

60/40 and 55/45 match ups against all characters is not good, but that wont happen not has it. Marth has bad match ups and even ones. MK probably now has even match ups, not sure about bad ones.

However, getting every character to have about a 50% advantage to disadvantage matchup ratio is probably not.

But to do that, you would have to nerf character movesets in a fashion that are NOT good. You want to give a good character majority 50/50 match ups? Go ahead, but expect to be yelled at by alot of people for nerfing a character in a way that he should not be nerfed.

As long as there are characters that have favorable matchups against the majority of the other characters in the game, it will never really be fair.

Not really. 60/40 and 55/45 match ups are extremely winnable. They exist in all forms of fighting games.
The only way for a fighting game to truely be fair is if there is only 1 character to use. As long as there is a difference between characters, one will be deemed better than the other.

In my opinion, this is the issue here. Not the Pokemon Trainer.

k.

Wing

Replies are red

 

[CloneHat]

If every character was a 50/50 matchup, the game would not only be boring, but it would be impossible to do unless there was only one character. Each moveset will fall to some and counter others (in gimping, range, etc.) so different fighting styles will always clash unevenly.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Would there be a way to have the glide stop not affect Charizard? His glide is already pretty bad as it is and he needs all the recovery he can get.

I'd still like to see a code to increase the number of frames in which you can glide toss. Lots of characters could have great ones if they were allowed to (Lucario comes to mind especially).

I'd also like it if Z, in the air, performed an attack instead of an airdodge, as well as making R+A or Z the only way to grab an item in midair (In Melee this was the case, in brawl you can grab with either an airdodge [R/L] or attack [A]). Finally, in this regard, I'd love to see jump-canceled grabs, if only for the sake of having them available.

My last, seperate note; has Crouch Cancling been made yet?

I never got any response to this, and I'm just curious.

 

[Revven]

nvm.

10chars

 

[Wingflier]

If every character was a 50/50 matchup, the game would not only be boring, but it would be impossible to do unless there was only one character. Each moveset will fall to some and counter others (in gimping, range, etc.) so different fighting styles will always clash unevenly.

This is not what I said, and I knew it was going to be misinterpreted in this way.

What I meant was that the ratio of advantage to disadvantage matchups should be the same or near the same on ALL characters.

That means, every character should have just as many good matchups as bad matchups, give or take a few. Obviously it can't ever be made perfect with an ever changing playerbase and metagame, but I believe that it can be made close.

And yes, this can be done without removing every character but one.

In essence, in a perfectly balanced game, tier lists wouldn't exist. A tier list is an obvious sign that the game is not balanced, or at least that people don't know how to play the characters on the lower tier very well.

In a perfectly balanced game, a tier list wouldn't exist. Because all characters would be equally playable and able to win.

And no, you don't have to remove every character but one to achieve this. You simply give each character ample strengths and weaknesses until they are all equally good, albeit in different ways. If I read correctly, this is the goal of the Brawl Plussery team, to promote highly effective balance throughout the game. Which I think they are doing a fantastic job of as it is.

But to do that, you would have to nerf character movesets in a fashion that are NOT good...Go ahead, but expect to be yelled at by alot of people for nerfing a character in a way that he should not be nerfed.

Not necessarily. Have you ever considered BUFFING the other characters until they were on the same level as the best ones? What a thought. Besides, sometimes characters have been nerfed in certain ways in this game, Metaknight comes to mind. If they need it to be balanced, there's nothing wrong with it.

Or you know, Marth and MK just have a move set that counters pokemon (ie gimping and range)

Erm, excuse me if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure gimping and range is what made Marth and MK good in vBrawl too. In fact, gimping and range could make you good against almost any character could it not? Just stating that Marth and MK's "gimping and range ability" is what makes them magically better against the pokemon but having even matchups against similar characters makes absolutely no sense.

Other than that, you presented a really good argument.

But back to the main topic, I think we've all agreed PT's poke-switching (down-b) needs to happen faster to help him out.

Wing

 

[CloneHat]

It may be impossible, because unlike in Melee, the stupid game has to load the swapping character from scratch, instead of just switching. So the lag is more like a loading time than an animation, annoyingly.

 

[GHNeko]

Not necessarily. Have you ever considered BUFFING the other characters until they were on the same level as the best ones? What a thought. Besides, sometimes characters have been nerfed in certain ways in this game, Metaknight comes to mind. If they need it to be balanced, there's nothing wrong with it.

Doing so would make them better than the rest of the cast. To match the best characters in the game is to make the rest of the cast worst against the characters you buff. If you repeat that process, you get power creep, which is making everyone uber. We want to avoid that. A cast of 39 S tiers < a cast of 39 B and A tiers.


Erm, excuse me if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure gimping and range is what made Marth and MK good in vBrawl too. In fact, gimping and range could make you good against almost any character could it not? Just stating that Marth and MK's "gimping and range ability" is what makes them magically better against the pokemon but having even matchups against similar characters makes absolutely no sense.

Yes. Their gimping and range made them good in Normal Brawl. Same reason why they're good in Brawl+. BUT the thing about that is the characters that go even with Marth and/or MK have more OPTIONS against that range and gimpyness than the Pokemon do ie Characters better than the pokemon like Wario or Sheik. Also heavies like Zard are disadvantaged to Marth and MK already. Characters with recoveries like Ivy are also disadvantaged. I really dont what characters are small quick agile and combo like Squirtle other than MK himself, but I do know that squirtle is disadvantaged due to a so-so recovery and lack of range. And he's on the lighter side of the roster IIRC.

Replies in red.

 

[Wingflier]

Well thanks for clearing things up, it makes a little more sense now I guess.

But when you say that Ivysaur's recovery is bad:

Characters with recoveries like Ivy are also disadvantaged.

I don't really understand where you're coming from. In my opinion, Ivy has great recovery. Sure, he can be edge-guarded during invincibility frames, but that is no different than many characters.

His vine range is huge in B+, I find it very easy to recover with him in most situations unless it bugs and misses the ledge for some reason (not unheard of).

As far as Squirtle vs. Marth, I have watched many Brawl+ youtube videos in many different matchups where it seemed very even too me. Sure, Marth has the range, but Squirtle is faster, and can juggle him very well. Concerning Squirtle vs. MK, I have seen no such videos, and have no friends who main either, so it's hard to tell based purely on speculation.

I guess in the end, it's not the fact that Brawl has characters that are advantage matchups against all three pokes that is the problem, its that those characters happen to be Marth and MK, the two best or close to the best vBrawl characters.

It COULD be a coincidence, but I really don't think so. And it makes me wonder how many other good matchups they have, because I really doubt either of those characters have many bad ones.

I'm not in favor of nerfing either of them, believe me, they both play really well and seem great the way they are. I just wonder if the other characters in the game will ever be at their level. I suppose time will tell.

It may be impossible, because unlike in Melee, the stupid game has to load the swapping character from scratch, instead of just switching. So the lag is more like a loading time than an animation, annoyingly.

Alright then, let's think outside the box. Give the pokemon invincibility frames during their few vunerable moments as if they had just come out of the halo. The opposing character can choose whether or not to be affected by this depending on how close he is when the new pokemon is "unleashed". Obviously it may be a bad idea to be too close to the ball opening now. In this way you can't "spawn camp" them and combo them up to ridiculous percentages because of that moment of weakness.

Obviously, you can make the invincibility frames only last until they are able to move, or even a bit longer, it's not really that big of a deal imo.

Wing

 

[GHNeko]

Well thanks for clearing things up, it makes a little more sense now I guess.

k. <3

But when you say that Ivysaur's recovery is bad:

It is. Mediocre at best.

I don't really understand where you're coming from. In my opinion, Ivy has great recovery. Sure, he can be edge-guarded during invincibility frames, but that is no different than many characters.

Easier to edgeguard ivy than it is other characters. Tether characters have that negative trait in general, because you can just sit on the ledge, invicible or not, and then they can't even recover cuz of it. If you sit on the ledge and they hit you with up B, the worst that will happen is that they stage spike you (can be teched). Either way, they lose a stock regardless. That's just a big negative of Tether Up B recoveries.

His vine range is huge in B+, I find it very easy to recover with him in most situations unless it bugs and misses the ledge for some reason (not unheard of).

What makes Ivy worse is how EASY it is to edgeguard. Ivy's recovery is not good. Medicre at best with the stalling and razer leaf..

As far as Squirtle vs. Marth, I have watched many Brawl+ youtube videos in many different matchups where it seemed very even too me. Sure, Marth has the range, but Squirtle is faster, and can juggle him very well. Concerning Squirtle vs. MK, I have seen no such videos, and have no friends who main either, so it's hard to tell based purely on speculation.

Marth is a juggling master. Juggles just as well as squritle, but now Marth has horizontal combos AND a meteor smash which RUINS squirtle's chance of recovery. The match up IS in Marth's favor. It's just that the marth's are doing it wrong. Seriously.

I guess in the end, it's not the fact that Brawl has characters that are advantage matchups against all three pokes that is the problem, its that those characters happen to be Marth and MK, the two best or close to the best vBrawl characters.

Probably. :V

It COULD be a coincidence, but I really don't think so. And it makes me wonder how many other good matchups they have, because I really doubt either of those characters have many bad ones.

Ivy and Squirtle have good matchups. I know it. Dunno about Zard since he is a heavy. :V

I'm not in favor of nerfing either of them, believe me, they both play really well and seem great the way they are. I just wonder if the other characters in the game will ever be at their level. I suppose time will tell.

Pretty much. Though I am pretty sure Marth and MK will be of the best characters of B+. Top 6, minimum.


Alright then, let's think outside the box. Give the pokemon invincibility frames during their few vunerable moments as if they had just come out of the halo. The opposing character can choose whether or not to be affected by this depending on how close he is when the new pokemon is "unleashed". Obviously it may be a bad idea to be too close to the ball opening now. In this way you can't "spawn camp" them and combo them up to ridiculous percentages because of that moment of weakness.

What I believe would be better is to allow the trainer to switch ahead 2 pokemon (effectively going back). Like holding R prior to death, and he skips the next pokemon in line.

Obviously, you can make the invincibility frames only last until they are able to move, or even a bit longer, it's not really that big of a deal imo.

That's an idea I'm willing to support.

Wing

10repliesinred


EDIT: Also, Marth's fair is faster than squirtle's anything.

 

[Wingflier]

Pretty much. Though I am pretty sure Marth and MK will be of the best characters of B+. Top 6, minimum.

Some things can never change?

Ivy and Squirtle have good matchups. I know it. Dunno about Zard since he is a heavy. :V

Why must heavy characters be destined to have more bad matchups than light ones? Surely there has to be way to fix this.

Speed should not equal superiority.

I've heard of many concept ideas to make bigger, heavier characters more effective against the lighter, more agile jugglers that can typically get them up to insanely high percentages so easily.

I typically favor one of the more logical ones.

The best part about it is that it even makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

The idea involves decreasing the amount of hitstun that heavier characters experience when hit by lighter characters.

Think about it. If Fox were to kick both Ness and Bowser in the chest, who do you think would be affected more? Ness is like a little kid; Bowser has some f*cken armor plating. You can't tell me it would have anywhere NEAR the same effect. The same goes for characters like Ganondorf, Charizard, DDD, etc.

These are all meaty characters. Why should they be stunned for the same duration as lighter characters like Marth or Pikachu who took the same or similar hit?

But decreasing the hitstun they receive from lighter characters, even by the slightest amount, you could give them a fighting chance. It would be much harder to combo them up to ridiculous percentages than before, and their heavier, bulkier bodies would actually BENEFIT them in some way. Instead of just hurting them.

You should think about it.

Easier to edgeguard ivy than it is other characters. Tether characters have that negative trait in general, because you can just sit on the ledge, invicible or not, and then they can't even recover cuz of it. If you sit on the ledge and they hit you with up B, the worst that will happen is that they stage spike you (can be teched). Either way, they lose a stock regardless. That's just a big negative of Tether Up B recoveries.

Hmm, I've seen times where it not only stage spikes the person on the ledge, but also still grabs it. If it's NOT this way currently, then it should be.

Though making Ivy's razor leaf a little better (its been nerfed so hard now) would definitely help.

Marth is a juggling master. Juggles just as well as squritle, but now Marth has horizontal combos AND a meteor smash which RUINS squirtle's chance of recovery. The match up IS in Marth's favor. It's just that the marth's are doing it wrong. Seriously.

This is probably true.

That's an idea I'm willing to support.

Gay <3

Wing

 

[GHNeko]

Some things can never change?

Nope. They're just 2222222222222222222222222222222222222222222gud.


Why must heavy characters be destined to have more bad matchups than light ones? Surely there has to be way to fix this.

Because they exist in a game that favors combos, something that only characters with quick moves can regularity do.

Speed should not equal superiority.

Speed is superior, but it can also be inferior. it all depends on the conditions that surround it and the perspective you use.

I've heard of many concept ideas to make bigger, heavier characters more effective against the lighter, more agile jugglers that can typically get them up to insanely high percentages so easily.

And the WBR is working on making heavy characters actually not suck.

I typically favor one of the more logical ones.

The best part about it is that it even makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

The idea involves decreasing the amount of hitstun that heavier characters experience when hit by lighter characters.

Character specific hitstun. We're trying to create that code. FFers like falcon need it. Bad. And luigi could use more hitstun imo.

Think about it. If Fox were to kick both Ness and Bowser in the chest, who do you think would be affected more? Ness is like a little kid; Bowser has some f*cken armor plating. You can't tell me it would have anywhere NEAR the same effect. The same goes for characters like Ganondorf, Charizard, DDD, etc.

Do NOT bring too much logic (ie real world logic) into a video game. They are usually not good arguments. Real world Logic barely works in video games, especially Smash.

These are all meaty characters. Why should they be stunned for the same duration as lighter characters like Marth or Pikachu who took the same or similar hit?

See above statement.

But decreasing the hitstun they receive from lighter characters, even by the slightest amount, you could give them a fighting chance. It would be much harder to combo them up to ridiculous percentages than before, and their heavier, bulkier bodies would actually BENEFIT them in some way. Instead of just hurting them.

Even if we decreased the hitstun heavies, there are just certain heavies that have no options other than an AD which can be predicted because they have slow attacks.

You should think about it.

I have.

Hmm, I've seen times where it not only stage spikes the person on the ledge, but also still grabs it. If it's NOT this way currently, then it should be.

No. Because that would make tether recoveries too good, as they would be able to recovery from long distances, stage spike at any percent (low percents they can just hang there to avoid the upcoming up B, or pull to the ledge for invici frames, and high percents is lol.), and still recover. It would make trying to edgehog them too risky.

Though making Ivy's razor leaf a little better (its been nerfed so hard now) would definitely help.

It was made too fast, which is why it was slowed down. There is still debate over it.

This is probably true.


Gay <3

Wing

This is so much better than multiquoting.

 

[Wingflier]

Because they exist in a game that favors combos, something that only characters with quick moves can regularity do.

Which is why it makes more sense that heavier characters should be harder to combo...

And the WBR is working on making heavy characters actually not suck.

This is good.

Do NOT bring too much logic (ie real world logic) into a video game. They are usually not good arguments. Real world Logic barely works in video games, especially Smash.

Okay I'm not trying to revolutionize the whole game. Just a certain aspect of it. And while it is just a cartoony video game, there are definitely real world aspects about it. We're not playing pacman here.

Not only that, but I think most people would agree that it makes the game feel better. It would be so awesome to actually feel the "heaviness" in your Bowser, Donkey Kong, or Charizard. To actually see it in action. The way you can feel the light and agile speed of characters like Fox and Sonic. I'm just trying to be consistent.

Even if we decreased the hitstun heavies, there are just certain heavies that have no options other than an AD which can be predicted because they have slow attacks.

Then increase their attack speed lol? You make this seem like rocket science.

No. Because that would make tether recoveries too good, as they would be able to recovery from long distances...It would make trying to edgehog them too risky.

As if there aren't other characters in the game that aren't extremely risky to edgeguard?
Metaknight comes to mind. How many edgeguarders have been shuttlelooped to oblivion? Why should characters like MK who have like 4 options of recovery get an advantage over characters with a single tether recovery or worse?

Wing

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why it makes more sense that heavier characters should be harder to combo...

Then that would break their niche ie being heavy. They're supposed to be easy to combo. That's they're weakness.

This is good.


Okay I'm not trying to revolutionize the whole game. Just a certain aspect of it. And while it is just a cartoony video game, there are definitely real world aspects about it. We're not playing pacman here.

Not only that, but I think most people would agree that it makes the game feel better. It would be so awesome to actually feel the "heaviness" in your Bowser, Donkey Kong, or Charizard. To actually see it in action. The way you can feel the light and agile speed of characters like Fox and Sonic. I'm just trying to be consistent.

People do feel the heaviness. You know when they're being comboed.


Then increase their attack speed lol? You make this seem like rocket science.

Heavy characters are generally supposed to have slow attacks. Increasing attack speed makes them...not...slow..


As if there aren't other characters in the game that aren't extremely risky to edgeguard?
Metaknight comes to mind. How many edgeguarders have been shuttlelooped to oblivion? Why should characters like MK who have like 4 options of recovery get an advantage over characters with a single tether recovery or worse?

MK still had to be close enough to the ledge in order for him to even stage spike you. Giving tether characters the ability to stage spike and snap to the ledge is pretty much giving them the ability to shuttle loop you for hella far away.

Wing

10ten_chars

 

[Dark Sonic]

btw in most fighting games the slow characters actually get combo'd more than the fast ones...mostly because they end up being BIG in addition to slow.

The only thing required for a slow character to be good is to have an adequate amount of power to equalize the damage they take (like Potemkin who kills everyone in 5 hits ). If you want to buff a slow character, THAT's where you buff them. You don't remove their weaknesses (being combo'd) and you don't try to change their strengths (now they're fast?), you make them so good at what they do that they're FEARED for it.

/2cents

 

[Wingflier]

Then that would break their niche ie being heavy. They're supposed to be easy to combo. That's they're weakness.

That shouldn't be their weakness. It doesn't make sense. If they are heavy, they shouldn't stay in the air very long because well, they're heavy.

People do feel the heaviness. You know when they're being comboed.

Once again, obviously people DON'T feel their heaviness. If they really felt heavy they wouldn't be in the air all the time. It makes much more sense that light characters should be in the air all the time.

Heaviness should be manifested in the fact that they are harder to get off the ground.

Heavy characters are generally supposed to have slow attacks. Increasing attack speed makes them...not...slow..

So let me get this straight, you think heavy characters should not only be easy to combo, but also forced to attack really slow.

It almost sounds like you want them to suck ***.

If heavy characters are easy to combo, attack slowly, and are almost always outmatched by faster, lighter characters, then what exactly strength do they have?

MK still had to be close enough to the ledge in order for him to even stage spike you.

Shuttle Loop has a huge range. I've seen people glide under entire stages with it and come back on the other side. As long as the sword hits you, it may not spike you, but it will get you off the ledge.

Giving tether characters the ability to stage spike and snap to the ledge is pretty much giving them the ability to shuttle loop you for hella far away.

Three things: One, you could probably code it so that it the tether doesn't actually spike them, it just "gently" knocks them off the ledge so you don't fall to your untimely death. Like Samus' tether recovery.

Two: You still have the ability to use invincibility frames to edgeguard a tether character, which by the way, isn't hard to do.

Three: Maybe you shouldn't be able to edgehog a tether character. As I said before, there are several OTHER characters that are generally not edgehogged because it's too dangerous. You can still edgeguard them in other ways or wall of pain them to their death. I don't see why tether characters get the shaft here. It's not like their ground games are generally good enough to promote that kind of treatment.

Wing

edit:

You don't remove their weaknesses (being combo'd) and you don't try to change their strengths (now they're fast?), you make them so good at what they do that they're FEARED for it.

But being comboed should not be a weakness in the first place. They are heavy. They should be hard to combo.

I can understand why they would be slow, and to keep that characteristic is fine.

But they should have more advantages than just, "Oh well, they hit hard."

Well that's nice and everything, but if they attack very slowly, and are extremely easy to combo, it doesn't really matter how hard they hit, they will probably never get a chance.

So it sounds good on paper, but it doesn't really work out in the actual game.

Besides, a heavy character should not be punished by both slow attack and movespeed and ease of combo.

Light characters should get fast attack speed and movespeed but are easy to combo.

Heavy characters should get slow attack speed and movespeed but are hard to combo.

I mean it's common sense.

 

[Arkaether]

Why must heavy characters be destined to have more bad matchups than light ones? Surely there has to be way to fix this.

Because the lighter characters, while indeed they are light, are given mobility and speed in order to compensate. If the heavier and stronger person cannot land a hit, it doesn't serve any purpose. This isn't unique to smash in general, but can be seen in many different types of games involving competition, mostly in fighting games.

Speed should not equal superiority.

Putting Smash aside, consider another competitive game such as Pokemon. In Pokemon, consider the (hated) tactic of evasion-raising and accuracy-reduction. Even if I drag out a super powerful legendary that can super-effective KO you in one hit, what's the point if I only have a 5% hit rate? Similarly, in Brawl+, if Squirtle has the mobility and speed to run circles around Bowser and never get hit, why shouldn't speed be superior? The tradeoff between power and speed is often a delicate one. For example, Jigglypuff can combo Ganondorf to no end, but Ganon kills Jigglypuff in what, three hits?

I've heard of many concept ideas to make bigger, heavier characters more effective against the lighter, more agile jugglers that can typically get them up to insanely high percentages so easily.

I typically favor one of the more logical ones.

The best part about it is that it even makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

The idea involves decreasing the amount of hitstun that heavier characters experience when hit by lighter characters.

While this would be nice and certainly be an interesting idea in application, it kind of ruins the purpose of hitstun in general, don't you think? We've already seen what happens with reduced hitstun in normal Brawl. Why do you think one of the main points of Brawl+ is increased hitstun? Not only that, heavy characters are also designed to be big and hard to kill, which contains a tradeoff of being a giant target that is easy to combo. You would be, again, removing a key aspect of big characters, which is that they're BIG. Bowser is a giant walking hurtbox just waiting to be combo'd, but he has the power to obliterate a speedier and lighter character in a few solid hits. When you restore something that has been traded away for something else, you end up giving a character more than they should have.

Think about it. If Fox were to kick both Ness and Bowser in the chest, who do you think would be affected more? Ness is like a little kid; Bowser has some f*cken armor plating. You can't tell me it would have anywhere NEAR the same effect. The same goes for characters like Ganondorf, Charizard, DDD, etc.

These are all meaty characters. Why should they be stunned for the same duration as lighter characters like Marth or Pikachu who took the same or similar hit?

Bringing real-world arguments into a video game doesn't really work. For example, tripping. That's real-world. And PT stamina. That's real-world too.

Hmm, I've seen times where it not only stage spikes the person on the ledge, but also still grabs it. If it's NOT this way currently, then it should be.

I have never seen this. While I agree that this is the way it should be, I'm pretty sure they can't make it happen, not to mention I would definitely not support it. Considering the absolutely absurd range from which tether recoveries would work, it would mean that ledgehogging a tether recovery would be virtually impossible, especially considering you would have no idea when they would recover. Most upBs have a startup to telegraph that they are being used, while tether recoveries are near instant. Having that work in such area means a nearly ungimpable recovery, since you wouldn't be able to time the ledgehog correctly, and they could wait for the invincibility to wear down before tethering.

Okay I'm not trying to revolutionize the whole game. Just a certain aspect of it. And while it is just a cartoony video game, there are definitely real world aspects about it. We're not playing pacman here.

Not only that, but I think most people would agree that it makes the game feel better. It would be so awesome to actually feel the "heaviness" in your Bowser, Donkey Kong, or Charizard. To actually see it in action. The way you can feel the light and agile speed of characters like Fox and Sonic. I'm just trying to be consistent.

I have to admit, lowered hitstun would not make me feel that my character is heavy at all. If I wanted my character to feel heavier, I'd want knockback reduction, superarmor frames, slightly higher gravity, and moves that pack a lot of pain behind each hit. Not to mention I would feel the heavy a LOT more when someone's doing a 60% combo on me. Getting out of combos easily is something for the floaty characters.

Then increase their attack speed lol? You make this seem like rocket science.

Increasing attack speed kind of ruins the entire tank aspect. You want to give somebody like Ganondorf faster moves? The tradeoff for power is speed. Giving a heavy both power AND speed is NOT a smart thing to do.

As if there aren't other characters in the game that aren't extremely risky to edgeguard?
Metaknight comes to mind. How many edgeguarders have been shuttlelooped to oblivion? Why should characters like MK who have like 4 options of recovery get an advantage over characters with a single tether recovery or worse?

You fail to realize that Metaknight is an extremely aerial character built with the purpose of having a great aerial game and godly recovery. Compare that to Ivysaur, who is built for having a great onstage game without having a very good recovery. It's a weakness in Ivysaur, which shouldn't be fixed. It's a pro to using Metaknight, which should only be expected.

That shouldn't be their weakness. It doesn't make sense. If they are heavy, they shouldn't stay in the air very long because well, they're heavy.

Indeed, they shouldn't stay in the air very long. They should fall. Like a rock. Which means they should be juggled far more easily.

Once again, obviously people DON'T feel their heaviness. If they really felt heavy they wouldn't be in the air all the time. It makes much more sense that light characters should be in the air all the time.

...you realize they're not really in the air of their own choice, correct? When you're getting the crap beaten out of you, you're generally not in a situation that you feel comfortable in. When heavies get combo'd, it's usually in the air because they're out of their element and are unable to do anything.

Heaviness should be manifested in the fact that they are harder to get off the ground.

And once they DO get off the ground, they don't get back because you're being juggled.

So let me get this straight, you think heavy characters should not only be easy to combo, but also forced to attack really slow.

It almost sounds like you want them to suck ***.

If heavy characters are easy to combo, attack slowly, and are almost always outmatched by faster, lighter characters, then what exactly strength do they have?

Perhaps the fact that Bowser can kill Jigglypuff with a fsmash at something like 40-50%, while Jigglypuff takes 120-130% to kill Bowser? Have you ever heard of the idea that power and speed are usually considered mutually exclusive, especially in competitive games, and even more so in a balanced fighting game?

Shuttle Loop has a huge range. I've seen people glide under entire stages with it and come back on the other side. As long as the sword hits you, it may not spike you, but it will get you off the ledge.

Refer to my point about Metaknight's recovery versus that of Ivysaur's. Not only that, but tether range is absolutely ginormous, while Shuttle Range doesn't really have that much range. You realize that the majority of the recovery you're seeing isn't Shuttle Loop, but the glide, correct? And the glide is an aspect that is unique to only a few characters and specifically designed to promote a better recovery.

Three things: One, you could probably code it so that it the tether doesn't actually spike them, it just "gently" knocks them off the ledge so you don't fall to your untimely death. Like Samus' tether recovery.

Which ruins them as an offensive move. Especially Ivy.

Two: You still have the ability to use invincibility frames to edgeguard a tether character, which by the way, isn't hard to do.

No. No you don't. Refer to earlier responses. No you do NOT.

Three: Maybe you shouldn't be able to edgehog a tether character. As I said before, there are several OTHER characters that are generally not edgehogged because it's too dangerous. You can still edgeguard them in other ways or wall of pain them to their death. I don't see why tether characters get the shaft here. It's not like their ground games are generally good enough to promote that kind of treatment.

Considering that Metaknight and Jigglypuff are DESIGNED to have EXTREMELY GOOD recoveries, while Ivysaur and Olimar are designed to NOT have good recoveries, why on EARTH are you trying to give them a good recovery? Olimar's ground game is absolute ****, and Ivysaur's onstage game is NOT something to be laughed at. The reason tether characters get the shaft is because they're MEANT to get the shaft. It's a WEAKNESS. We don't buff those, that breaks a character.

Just my input. Terribly sorry if it interrupts your arguments, GHNeko.

 

[GHNeko]

That shouldn't be their weakness. It doesn't make sense. If they are heavy, they shouldn't stay in the air very long because well, they're heavy.

Again. This game makes little sense. Bowser is floaty. Fox is light as hell, but gets ***** because he falls faster than everyone else. If anything, every character shouldnt be in the air for long because thing falls at a constant speed.

See, I can play that game too.


Once again, obviously people DON'T feel their heaviness. If they really felt heavy they wouldn't be in the air all the time. It makes much more sense that light characters should be in the air all the time.

No it doesnt. Just because they are light doesnt mean they belong in the air. Look at fox. Look at game and watch. People DO feel how heavy a character is because of how long they can live.

Heaviness should be manifested in the fact that they are harder to get off the ground.

They ARE harder to get off the ground. Because of their increased weight, their launch speed is lower than that of the cast which is WHY they are so easy to combo in the first place.

So let me get this straight, you think heavy characters should not only be easy to combo, but also forced to attack really slow.

Heavy characters are designed at heart to be heavy, slow, have limited combo ability, and are easy to combo. Their upside is that that fancy 12 hit combo you just did to them? Yea. They just did it back to you with 10% the amount of hits you did to them. And guess what, that large number you see as their percent? You're going to need 70% more before you have a chance at killing him. ALSO, you see how you just whiffed an attack? Yea. They're going to hit you hard, and you're going to die, even though your own percents are extremely low.

That's are heavies are designed. That's how heavies are played. Slow, succeptable to combos. Limited combo ability, but they knock the **** out of you and are meant to punish more than combo.

It's like that in ALL fighting games with heavies.

It almost sounds like you want them to suck ***.

No. I dont want them to suck, but I dont want them to break their niche. What we have to do is support their niche and help them cope with those who they are habitually weak against.

If heavy characters are easy to combo, attack slowly, and are almost always outmatched by faster, lighter characters, then what exactly strength do they have?

They have the ability to do massive damage with single hits and KO you at extremely low percents with smart play, proper prediction, and excellent punishing options.

Shuttle Loop has a huge range. I've seen people glide under entire stages with it and come back on the other side. As long as the sword hits you, it may not spike you, but it will get you off the ledge.

Shuttle loop has less range than tethers. :V

Three things: One, you could probably code it so that it the tether doesn't actually spike them, it just "gently" knocks them off the ledge so you don't fall to your untimely death. Like Samus' tether recovery.

Hey. You want to support that, bring it up with the WBR. I have absolutely nothing against it nor do I have any thoughts about it.

Two: You still have the ability to use invincibility frames to edgeguard a tether character, which by the way, isn't hard to do.

Exactly why tether characters are easily edgehogged. :V

Three: Maybe you shouldn't be able to edgehog a tether character. As I said before, there are several OTHER characters that are generally not edgehogged because it's too dangerous. You can still edgeguard them in other ways or wall of pain them to their death. I don't see why tether characters get the shaft here. It's not like their ground games are generally good enough to promote that kind of treatment.

Who are you to decide someting like that? Tether characters have THE greatest up B range and ALWAYS auto snap to a ledge. The weakness of that is how easy it is to gimp them. ALSO, tether characters have GREAT onstage ability, so that massive weakness in recovery is something that balances them out. If you give tethers the ability to gently push players aside and always autosnap if they aren't invincible on the ledge, you have to nerf either their offensive or defensive game to compensate.

Wing

Boy this is fun. :V

 

[Wingflier]

You fail to realize that Metaknight is an extremely aerial character built with the purpose of having a great aerial game and godly recovery. Compare that to Ivysaur, who is built for having a great onstage game without having a very good recovery. It's a weakness in Ivysaur, which shouldn't be fixed. It's a pro to using Metaknight, which should only be expected.

Okay that's fine, but MK is a better character in almost every way than Ivysaur. Almost anybody would agree that he's definitely a higher tier than Ivy, and he even has 4 "B" moves instead of 3.

It should be MK that has gimped recovery, not Ivysaur; who is the weaker of the two. It makes a lot more sense.

If the heavier and stronger person cannot land a hit, it doesn't serve any purpose.

But what safeguards do we have in place to improve the heavier character's ability to hit? I would say that it is much easier and more common for a lighter character to juggle a heavier character and then knock them off than for the heavier character to land those few much needed hits. I think tournament results have typically shown this.

For example, Jigglypuff can combo Ganondorf to no end, but Ganon kills Jigglypuff in what, three hits?

IF he can hit him.

Not only that, heavy characters are also designed to be big and hard to kill, which contains a tradeoff of being a giant target that is easy to combo

In actuality, they really aren't that much harder to kill. Even if the heaviest character in the game needed 2x much knockback as say the lightest character in the game to kill, their overall bigger size and slower speed more than makes up for this don't you think? It would be different if it was like 3x KB or more to knock them off. Not to mention that in general, the bigger characters have average or below average recovery skills.

Bowser is a giant walking hurtbox just waiting to be combo'd, but he has the power to obliterate a speedier and lighter character in a few solid hits. When you restore something that has been traded away for something else, you end up giving a character more than they should have.

Once again, this all sounds good on paper, but if it's true, then why do so many people still complain about how Bowser is so underpowered? The argument is not cohesive.

Considering the absolutely absurd range from which tether recoveries would work, it would mean that ledgehogging a tether recovery would be virtually impossible, especially considering you would have no idea when they would recover

As I said before, there are already several characters that you would probably never consider edgehogging without invincibility frames already. Characters that in general, are much better than those with tether recoveries. So why are the inferior characters being indirectly punished?

In addition, there are many more ways to edgeguard than just edgehogging. Wall of Pain, Meteor Smash, and D-Tilt all come to mind. Think of all of Ike's options...

Not to mention I would feel the heavy a LOT more when someone's doing a 60% combo on me. Getting out of combos easily is something for the floaty characters.

Okay I'm not sure what type of logic you are using. But if a character is "floaty" then it makes sense that they will "float" in the air, and are therefore extremely easy to combo because they are light and fall so slowly. Like a feather.

If you are heavy, like an anvil, then you should be hard to combo because you resist leaving the ground. Like a thousand pound weight.

The only reason you say "floaty" characters should be the ones that escape combos and heavy chars should be the ones caught in them is because you are used too it; not because it makes any sort of sense.

Increasing attack speed kind of ruins the entire tank aspect. You want to give somebody like Ganondorf faster moves? The tradeoff for power is speed. Giving a heavy both power AND speed is NOT a smart thing to do.

Yes but making a heavy move slowly, easy to combo, easy to juggle, and attack slowly is also NOT a smart thing to do. They should have more benefits other than, well, they hit hard.

That's not enough. And the fact that heavy characters usually have so many bad matchups against light characters just proves it.

Wing

edit: And yes, I understand that it's a lot more complicated than just heavy characters fall fast and light characters being floaty. I know there are exceptions like fox, falcon, bowser, etc.

What I mean is that the game mechanics should reflect situations that make it harder to combo heavier characters because of their size, not easier.

Not from a "real-life" or logical standpoint, from a purely balance standpoint.

I simply disagree that the fact that they take must take more damage to get knocked off or that they do more damage when they connect is an adequate substitute.

If it were, they why so many bad matchups?

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why we're buffing heavy characters so that they can compete with the lighter, faster characters, without having them leave their niche.


Durp durp.

 

[Wingflier]

Yes, I already understand that you are buffing heavier characters. You have said that many times.

Durp Durp.

I disagree on HOW you are buffing them.

So far as I can tell, the only way you are buffing them is by making them MORE powerful with MORE knockback.

Since all my other suggestions like making them move/attack faster, making them harder to combo/juggle, making them receive less hitstun etc. have all been turned down.

And what I'm trying to tell you is that just giving them MORE power isn't going to solve anything.

You still haven't really explained HOW you are buffing them to put them on the same level with the other characters. Other than like I said before, making them hit harder. Which isn't going to fix it.

Wing