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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
Eaode
Smash Champion
I'm not talking just plain missed L-Cancels, I mean things that you can control, like screwing up certain aerials with shieldstun (and messing with the shiedstun by missing up light and hard shield), (also IC's give double that).
Admittedly it still doesn't happen that often, but people treat it as if it's not even an element of the game.
I actually recently had an event where someone told me a situation where not l-canceling could be beneficial. Apparently, during the landing lag of Peach' FAir, she ducks extremely low - low enough to avoid Marth' Grab Box for a couple of frames.
Of course, I haven't tested to see if this is true. She DOES duck awfully low, but whether it affects her hurtboxes... This is the kind of thing Magus would know.
Of course, I haven't tested to see if this is true. She DOES duck awfully low, but whether it affects her hurtboxes... This is the kind of thing Magus would know.
well, because imo, it virtually isn't a controllable aspect of the game.
Technically, you have total control over when you want to L-Cancel, but what reason would you not want to?
If given the ability to, you would L-Cancel 100% of the time, and never choose not to.
It's one of those, "You dont need to, but you have to." situations.
Technically, you have total control over when you want to L-Cancel, but what reason would you not want to?
If given the ability to, you would L-Cancel 100% of the time, and never choose not to.
It's one of those, "You dont need to, but you have to." situations.
Eaode
Smash Champion
but by requiring you to, even though it's not a strategic decision, it still brings in some more room for error, in which the better player can take advantage more often, and technical ability grants you safety. If nobody decent ever missed L-Cancels, then making it automatic is just making bad players better.
That room of error is really insignificant though. Missing L-Cancels barely gets you punished, it rarely costs you a stock, and viritually never costs you a match, even in friendlies after you reach a certain level of skill.
The room for error significant decreased to be virtually null at a COMPETITIVE AMATEUR level, as by that level, you've mastered L-Canceling and are somewhat proficient as using WDing as you should.
ALR might curb the difficulty a bit, and cater towards new players, but really, what it curbs is really insignificant in the long run. :/
The room for error significant decreased to be virtually null at a COMPETITIVE AMATEUR level, as by that level, you've mastered L-Canceling and are somewhat proficient as using WDing as you should.
ALR might curb the difficulty a bit, and cater towards new players, but really, what it curbs is really insignificant in the long run. :/
Eaode
Smash Champion
Well, yeah, and again this is where the flaw of the specific argument comes in. But in the general sense, seemingly "arbitrary" tech skill can add that extra element of reward, more so than L-Canceling (which is pretty easy)
professor mgw
Smash Champion
i can't understand what to do with the codes.
where do I input them?
where do I input them?
But, you do realize you can get used to anything right?
The "reward" of L-Canceling cant really be called a reward when you get it ever time you do an aerial. It's something you expect. Something you know you're going to get. It's nothing new. Its like waking up and brushing your teeth. You're supposed to do it everyday, and doing so keeps your teeth clean, but you dont have to do it.
not doing it though, is only infinitely bad, but doing it only keeps your teeth up to par. They only get so white.
The "reward" of L-Canceling cant really be called a reward when you get it ever time you do an aerial. It's something you expect. Something you know you're going to get. It's nothing new. Its like waking up and brushing your teeth. You're supposed to do it everyday, and doing so keeps your teeth clean, but you dont have to do it.
not doing it though, is only infinitely bad, but doing it only keeps your teeth up to par. They only get so white.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
Tech skill in a game should be one of the defining aspects that determine the difference between high-level play and low-level play. However, L-canceling is not a good identifier of tech skill that serves to differentiate high-level vs low-level play. All it does is create a larger gap between "casual" and "hardcore" players.
For example, when have you ever seen a pro miss a wavedash? Something that's used constantly in every situation is no longer "tech skill", especially if it is as simple as L-canceling or wavedashing. After a certain level, it's no more of a "tech skill" aspect as pressing the jump button is. It's just something that's used to play the game. Thus, why bother having to press the extra button if you're can just have that effect anyways?
For example, when have you ever seen a pro miss a wavedash? Something that's used constantly in every situation is no longer "tech skill", especially if it is as simple as L-canceling or wavedashing. After a certain level, it's no more of a "tech skill" aspect as pressing the jump button is. It's just something that's used to play the game. Thus, why bother having to press the extra button if you're can just have that effect anyways?
Arkaether
Smash Ace
I hope that the next time you get laid, you only last 1:20. I call hax.
kupo15
Smash Hero
Yea, there are actually a lot of factors that skew the timing of l canceling. Hard/light shielding, the size of the shield, the shield hitlag, hitlag, combination of multiple hit objects, the location from the hit to the ground, an unexpected miss, and unexpected hit, angle of the shield....
There are a lot of little factors that are computed subconciously to a point where "people treat it as if it's not even an element of the game." If I were to blind fold you, there is no way you would be able to l cancel every time because you wouldn't be able to adjust to how I interrupt your SHFFL.
A missed l cancel means a lost combo. It rarely costs you a stock? I dunno. I missed my l cancel in 64 and lost a stock because of it. You die if you get hit or miss a z cancel in 64. You can get hurt by missing an l cancel in melee. Its not impossible
Which is why you dont miss an L-cancel. :V
<___>
Nothing is impossible, which is why I use virtually in front of my impossibles. Lol. And I also said you barely get punished, which counts for the "You can get hurt" part.
kupo15
Smash Hero
But you still can miss an l cancel.
So what if I said 64? You said that you have no punishment for a loss of an l cancel and I provided one. It doesn't matter if its 64 or melee <____>
No. The "You can get hurt" part refers to it depends on the situation. A missed l cancel can lead to a loss of a stock if your perc is high or if you are in a good gimping position.
I know that no one is willing to add l canceling but I think you are limiting your options if you only pick from one type of technique to add. You should be a bit more open minded.
True, but the rate that you do, is really small and insignficant. :v
It matters more in 64 than it does in Melee. Missing a Z cancel is more worse than missing a L-Cancel in melee. Getting punished for missing a Z-Cancel in 64 is extremely more potent and it happens more than it does in melee. Plus, stay on Melee. No point of going to 64. :V
True. Which is why I said nothing is impossible, but the actual occurances of it happening are still significantly low.
Who said I'm not open minded. I'm not advocating against or for L-Canceling.
:V
thesage
Smash Hero
I think a lot of people are forgetting about character specific advanced techniques we could add into the game. Stop arguing about l-canceling/auto-l-canceling.
Look at Pikachu and Peach. They both have very unique advanced techs (float canceling and quick attack cancel) that look really cool, are somewhat hard to learn, and are unique to themselves. I would prefer stuff like that added in to make characters more unique rather than a universal technique. After the characters are balanced, it will be very hard to keep a character unique. This is a cool way to do it. Bonus points for making it something they actually have in their game series (for example give mario to walk backwards like he did in super mario bros. Nes).
I would, however, prefer that this part of brawl+ not be looked into until the characters are balanced with the codes we have currently. This way we'll know more about how characters work so it'll be easier to balance the new stuff we're giving them.
I also highly support Hybrid Air Dodge, but again, should be looked into after we're done balancing characters.
Person who used smash 64 as an example, if you missed anything in smash64/shielded you get killed lol.
Look at Pikachu and Peach. They both have very unique advanced techs (float canceling and quick attack cancel) that look really cool, are somewhat hard to learn, and are unique to themselves. I would prefer stuff like that added in to make characters more unique rather than a universal technique. After the characters are balanced, it will be very hard to keep a character unique. This is a cool way to do it. Bonus points for making it something they actually have in their game series (for example give mario to walk backwards like he did in super mario bros. Nes).
I would, however, prefer that this part of brawl+ not be looked into until the characters are balanced with the codes we have currently. This way we'll know more about how characters work so it'll be easier to balance the new stuff we're giving them.
I also highly support Hybrid Air Dodge, but again, should be looked into after we're done balancing characters.
Person who used smash 64 as an example, if you missed anything in smash64/shielded you get killed lol.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I think it should be required to hold up-left on the D-pad so you can run. Also, requiring you to press up, and both jump buttons to jump would be nice, It would make dashing and jumping *real* rewarding.
kupo15
Smash Hero
It may or may not be insignificant. There was a thread made in the melee forums way back when this was first discussed ((maybe before you) and it was titled "Would melee be the same without l canceling" and just about every meleeist said no. So apparently it wasn't insignificant to the melee players.
Got it. It sounded like you were against it. Then why don't we add depth to l canceling then. 4 frames for half cancel, 2 frames for quarter cancel. We can still keep our custom ALR in tact as well.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Oh wow, you pressed a button at predictable intervals so much that it becomes muscle memory. That most certainly is tech skill
/sarcasm
Tech skill isn't pressing a random button to do something that should already be in the game. Tech skill is doing a button combination at a certain time to achieve some sort of advantage or to lessen a punishment or some other reward that requires active thought. QAC, Float cancel, and wavedashing all had tech skill, as there are times where doing such isn't always beneficial. L-canceling isn't tech skill, as there isn't a time when you don't want to do it. It's simply muscle memory that people can nitpick if, for whatever reason, you miss it.
I thought we laid this argument to bed, why are we bringing it up again? The coders need to work on more important stuff, like the clone engine, the throw modifier, projectile modifier, character specific hitstun, and character specific friction, before we can even think about other things for possible tech skill, like optional djc, or magus canceling.
/sarcasm
Tech skill isn't pressing a random button to do something that should already be in the game. Tech skill is doing a button combination at a certain time to achieve some sort of advantage or to lessen a punishment or some other reward that requires active thought. QAC, Float cancel, and wavedashing all had tech skill, as there are times where doing such isn't always beneficial. L-canceling isn't tech skill, as there isn't a time when you don't want to do it. It's simply muscle memory that people can nitpick if, for whatever reason, you miss it.
I thought we laid this argument to bed, why are we bringing it up again? The coders need to work on more important stuff, like the clone engine, the throw modifier, projectile modifier, character specific hitstun, and character specific friction, before we can even think about other things for possible tech skill, like optional djc, or magus canceling.
Jigglypuff in Brawl + is so gay.
Change her to be less gay. I say this not as a victim, but as someone who abuses her gayness lol.
Seriously, Rest is now too powerful, too easy to land with the current Combo setup/modifications, and she still has the stalling to deal with.
Change her to be less gay. I say this not as a victim, but as someone who abuses her gayness lol.
Seriously, Rest is now too powerful, too easy to land with the current Combo setup/modifications, and she still has the stalling to deal with.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you must stop playing against CPUs my friend
and people STOP it. Kupo, you are the ONLY one advocating L-canceling. stop fighting windmills.
and people STOP it. Kupo, you are the ONLY one advocating L-canceling. stop fighting windmills.
Lol is the CPU comment aimed at me?
Because Rest Combo's from... like everything lol. On some characters, I can literally Dthrow them at 0% and even with DI they cannot escape from me as I jump and rest them. Pound to Rest, Uair/Fair/Bair/Dair to rest, etc. I could understand having it like that if it didn't kill til 60%, but the sucker can kill a lot of characters near 10% lol.
Also, L canceling is a bad idea. If you really want the lag on moves cut down in half, just give them half the lag without having to press a button before you land. Like seriously, with the advances you people have made already for Brawl +, L canceling should be considered as unnecessary, if someone were really to want it included.
D
Deleted member
Guest
yes it was. but unlike your previous post, this one actually is sensible.
and I asked to stop about it. then plz be so kind to do so if you don't bring anything new.
IMO there has to be still something new that requires skill.
I mean it´s just jumping around and spamming aerials. I would still like to have wavedash in that game. In the old B+ it was really fun and I don´t really like the BAD which allows you to have invincibility frames all the time. >__>
I mean it´s just jumping around and spamming aerials. I would still like to have wavedash in that game. In the old B+ it was really fun and I don´t really like the BAD which allows you to have invincibility frames all the time. >__>
D
Deleted member
Guest
well then propose something.
I'm still thinking of something, and I suggest everybody does. then we can have a good techskill that we all like
I'm still thinking of something, and I suggest everybody does. then we can have a good techskill that we all like
kupo15
Smash Hero
Of course l canceling has no priority (I thought I mentioned this). It spawned up as an example about talking about "arbitrary tech skill" to define it and to inquire that people be more open minded to it. Instead of *****ing at me for the idea, why don't you come up with your own idea to add universal tech skill if your so smart?
Techjumping was a great idea, but it never has been correctly implemented.
Some lightshield-like shield would be great (although very, very hard to code, I think).
JC Grabs/ Dash Cancel during initial dash (both serve for the same purpose).
Smash Charge Cancel (mindgames), like SFIV Focus Cancels.
Fix crawldash http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7444171&postcount=22 / make everyone be able to "crawldash" (i know, i'm dreaming, not every1 can crawl -.-')
Yes, everything has been discussed before, but they're not bad ideas. Brawl+ definitely needs new mechanics.
Just proposing.
Some lightshield-like shield would be great (although very, very hard to code, I think).
JC Grabs/ Dash Cancel during initial dash (both serve for the same purpose).
Smash Charge Cancel (mindgames), like SFIV Focus Cancels.
Fix crawldash http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7444171&postcount=22 / make everyone be able to "crawldash" (i know, i'm dreaming, not every1 can crawl -.-')
Yes, everything has been discussed before, but they're not bad ideas. Brawl+ definitely needs new mechanics.
Just proposing.
People called Techjumping OPd because at the time it was, but no one wants to ****ing fix it so its not OP'd.
Lightshielding isnt possible because no trigger pressure senstivity.
I suggested DCs during initial dashes but it got shot down. JC Grabs would be the better option over all grabs unless we gave it a down fall.
Samash Charge cancel = Broken concept
Lightshielding isnt possible because no trigger pressure senstivity.
I suggested DCs during initial dashes but it got shot down. JC Grabs would be the better option over all grabs unless we gave it a down fall.
Samash Charge cancel = Broken concept
Smash Charge Cancel, for exemple= You can cancel your charge with a dash. You will dash in a direction, but you'll have to wait until you can do anything (maybe around 10 frames, like a WD), so it's punishable if predicted. You get no benefit from charging the smash, I mean, you will have to charge it again from the beginning if you want to use it at full power.
Charging smashes is not worth it most of the time (in competitive smash), they could have a use.
Also, about the lightshield, you could lightshield with Z in melee. If there's a way to code something close to it, I think we could just use Z.
Charging smashes is not worth it most of the time (in competitive smash), they could have a use.
Also, about the lightshield, you could lightshield with Z in melee. If there's a way to code something close to it, I think we could just use Z.
If that was the case, you should only be able to cancel the first few frames. :V
And cancel it with a dodge, not a dash. ANd it has no inviciframes.
And we cant set lightshielding to Z due to custom controllers.
And cancel it with a dodge, not a dash. ANd it has no inviciframes.
And we cant set lightshielding to Z due to custom controllers.
D
Deleted member
Guest
so I thought about what defined smash, and I think we need to come up with a techskil around the ledgegame/edgeguarding
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Agreed. Ledgeteching is one we really need but something else wouldn't hurt.
Also, though I think Rest is dumb Dr. Mario Guy, this isn't the topic for that. Post in the appropriate topic and see what others have to think please.
I also know we keep brushing it under the floor, but isn't there a universal speed modifier in the game? Like everything in the game moves faster all at once, not just animations. I'd like to discuss bumping it up by .1 or .2. *Shrugs*
Eaode
Smash Champion
Actually Smash Charge Cancel is a really cool idea. Smash has always been a game without many fakeouts (Brawl even more so without Wavedashing). Canceling a smash charge would be great for mindgamez.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
It needs heavy balance tuning. Let's look at for someone like Ike and his F-smash
Good range, good priority, and great knockback. All of that is offset by the slow speed and winddown. So he could charge the f-smash with full knowledge he can cancel it during the charge, getting rid of one of the moves biggest weakness (whiffed f-smash = combo'd for Ike). If we don't limit the options out of the cancel it becomes OP and if we limit them too much it won't really ever become useful...
Also, programming the limitations into the AT would be a nightmare.
cman
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 17, 2008
- Messages
- 593
Ok two ideas. Make the platform autosnap thing (where you land on a moving platform instead of jumping up through it by pressing down while travelling upward) work for all non-moving platforms as well, if that is possible to code. It would really be great for mobility, and it already exists in the game, proving to not be broken.
Second, erase all lag from aerials and aerial specials if you land before the hitbox/projectile comes out. For example, ness' pk fire has a lot of land lag even if nothing is shot. It would be useful for mindgames, especially on moves with very distinct sounds (like pk fire).
Second, erase all lag from aerials and aerial specials if you land before the hitbox/projectile comes out. For example, ness' pk fire has a lot of land lag even if nothing is shot. It would be useful for mindgames, especially on moves with very distinct sounds (like pk fire).
Eaode
Smash Champion
The charge starts very quickly on all smash moves. Even after releasing the charge, something like Ike's fsmash still has lots of startup. The only thing it saves him from is being able to cancel it before it really started. Unless you mean that it's broken that Ike can sit there and fully charge it and wait for people to walk into it without guaranteed punishment or something? To that I would say you shouldn't be walking in front of an Ike charging a smash ever lol.
It would definitely become a staple of the game (and that might scare someone into preemptively saying it's too good), but I really doubt it'd be broken. To utilize it as a scouting tool to see if you will connect, only makes the move last longer, making their punishment more likely. Like suggested, it should obviously get some ind of lag (artificial lag or natural lag by only being able to cancel it with a dodge or roll or something to tha effect).
Again, this is only speculation, we have no idea what would await the programmers if they tried to undertake it.
It would definitely become a staple of the game (and that might scare someone into preemptively saying it's too good), but I really doubt it'd be broken. To utilize it as a scouting tool to see if you will connect, only makes the move last longer, making their punishment more likely. Like suggested, it should obviously get some ind of lag (artificial lag or natural lag by only being able to cancel it with a dodge or roll or something to tha effect).
Again, this is only speculation, we have no idea what would await the programmers if they tried to undertake it.