COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Eaode]

I agree with Kupo. Also not for momentum canceling, but all along I've been for adding things that take tech skill. There seems to be some desire to make this into a strategy game where every single decision is an important and thoughtful one. This is an action game, there should be a considerable reward for having superior execution and technical ability IMHO.

 

[goodoldganon]

Stuff

A good post and some good points, I will admit that. Here's my reasoning or at least my way of thinking of a difference between good tech skill and bad tech skill.

Bad tech skill is L-canceling and Momentum Canceling. Things that become nothing more the muscle memory. Now one reason Momentum Canceling was stupid easy in vBrawl was the hitlag giving you plenty of time to think about it, but we both agree that it's a bad mechanic or at least an unreasonable one in B+.

L-canceling is an arbitrary button you HAVE to press after every aerial. After playing for so long believe me when I say, you DON'T miss L-cancels. We have had this discussion in the back room before and though I wouldn't freak if L-canceling was back I can say I don't want it back.

Good tech skill would be like EX cancels in SF4 and Super Cancels in MvC2 (Marvel vs Capcom 2) It's still tech skill since it requires timing, knowledge, and button presses to be able to do but there is an added level of thinking and depth involved to doing those skills. These are things you DON'T want to do every single time they are available.

EX canceling in Street Fighter 4 is the ability to cancel a special or focus attack at certain frames of the attack to either continue a combo, protect yourself from a poorly placed attack, or be unpredictable. It comes at the cost of 2 bars of super power. Not only is super power not easy to build up, you need it to perform EX attacks and and Super Moves. So whenever you go for an EX cancel you know the risks you are taking. Is it worth trying to continue this combo or guard against the counter attack for 2 super bars? Will I need to EX Blanka's headbutt to get past the Hadoken spamming Shoto? The depth to an EX cancel is incredible cause not only do they require very strict timing you also have think about using them

Super Cancels in MvC2 are the ability to string up to three super attacks together between you and your tag partners, but with each subsequent super, the damage drops by 25%. 100-75-50. So you have to think, is it worth using a super bar and having to switch my character out do build the extra damage. Should I switch Iron Man after Cables Hyper Viper Beam is over so I can build more damage on Storm or will it not kill her? All things you have to consider.

We are way off topic, but whatever I enjoy this discussion because I DO believe Brawl+ lacks any super high level tech skill that is universal across the board. Brawl is loaded with a lot of character specific tech skills, but nothing like L-canceling or Wavedashing. I want tech skill that isn't arbitrary and isn't always the best way to do something. I want tech skill that requires you not only have the muscle memory and timing down, it also requires you to think at a deeper level of play. That's the kind of tech skill Brawl+ really needs, but we are down our two star coders and PK has a lot on his plate to chew before he could take on a monumental task like this.

One idea someone had a long time ago was an L-cancel that reduced ALL the lag on an aerial (and should probably afford extra hitstun on contact), but came at the cost part of your shield. Risk defense for offense? Still gotta have that l-canceling timing down, but you don't have to do it EVERY time.

My 0.2 cents...

 

[Eaode]

totally random maybe bad idea off the top of my head:

what about some sort of technique to weaken your smash attack in exchange for less lag. Like a semi-smash- stronger and laggier than a tilt (mostly) but weaker and faster than the regular smash. Maybe performed by pressing shield a certain number of frames after inputting the smash, kind of like an FRC in GG.

 

[goodoldganon]

totally random maybe bad idea off the top of my head:

what about some sort of technique to weaken your smash attack in exchange for less lag. Like a semi-smash- stronger and laggier than a tilt (mostly) but weaker and faster than the regular smash. Maybe performed by pressing shield a certain number of frames after inputting the smash, kind of like an FRC in GG.

See, though I have no idea how that would work out, it's the kind of tech skill I want. Much deeper then L-canceling but still requires good timing and knowledge of the game, its mechanics, and all that jazz.

 

[wazgood]

totally random maybe bad idea off the top of my head:

what about some sort of technique to weaken your smash attack in exchange for less lag. Like a semi-smash- stronger and laggier than a tilt (mostly) but weaker and faster than the regular smash. Maybe performed by pressing shield a certain number of frames after inputting the smash, kind of like an FRC in GG.

sounds kinda like EX moves imo

 

[GHNeko]

One idea someone had a long time ago was an L-cancel that reduced ALL the lag on an aerial (and should probably afford extra hitstun on contact), but came at the cost part of your shield. Risk defense for offense? Still gotta have that l-canceling timing down, but you don't have to do it EVERY time.

Magus Canceling.

Wasnt the issue with that that slow characters would be hindered alot more by that due to the fact that characters with lagless aerials (MK, Marth, etc) would need to MC less than other characters with laggy aerials (Bowser, Ganon)

<_<

Also, lol @ Eaode.

STREET FIGHTER? IN MY SMASH? ITS MORE LIKELY THAN YOU THINK.

 

[kupo15]

IMO, its only arbitrary tech skill if it serves no purpose. However, people do love taunt canceling...

And just wondering, I hope you (gog) don't think that wavedashing was an arbitrary tech skill.

 

[goodoldganon]

Magus Canceling.

Wasnt the issue with that that slow characters would be hindered alot more by that due to the fact that characters with lagless aerials (MK, Marth, etc) would need to MC less than other characters with laggy aerials (Bowser, Ganon)

<_<

Also, lol @ Eaode.

STREET FIGHTER? IN MY SMASH? ITS MORE LIKELY THAN YOU THINK.

I'd say that would be better. Which heavy slow character besides Snake is even in high tier? DK and Ganondorf have the next best shot and I don't think either cuts it. Either way we can tailor this to be better for heavies so it's more important to their game (just like l-canceling and wavedashing are better for some characters) but it's a universal skill for everyone that will be helpful from time to time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even MK suffers some frames of lag here and there on aerials, and I know Marth does, it's why I lowered Roy's ALR.

As I said, our star coders are gone and Almas is doing Engine codes and PK has a massive list of codes hes working on. It's something we swept under the rug at the start of B+, but something I don't mind discussing again. I don't agree with Kupo's desires for certain tech skilll, but I do agree that some form of tech skill wouldn't hurt.

 

[Shaya]

Well I don't think Brawl+ should remove hitstun, hitstun is what's attracting better competitive gaming, reducing seperation of tiers (i.e. making characters better), etc.

But as I said, some moves in vBrawl even at kill percents don't incur the ability to air dodge/attack to momentum cancel. There is probably an inherent property to these moves. Sheik's ftilt goes from a move that incurs natural hitstun to one that incurs early air dodging, yet eventually will kill.

Taking this(these) property(s) and applying them could be a means of balancing;
Characters could have the speed of their kill moves increased (start up) but allow for set hitstun. And in the same steed, character's with already fast/spammable kill moves could have set hitstun as well.
Characters with slower kill moves incur the larger hit stun, making them more dangerous to be hit by in general.
(My mind's gone a-blank of other examples)...

 

[GHNeko]

I'd say that would be better. Which heavy slow character besides Snake is even in high tier? DK and Ganondorf have the next best shot and I don't think either cuts it. Either way we can tailor this to be better for heavies so it's more important to their game (just like l-canceling and wavedashing are better for some characters) but it's a universal skill for everyone that will be helpful from time to time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even MK suffers some frames of lag here and there on aerials, and I know Marth does, it's why I lowered Roy's ALR.

But the thing is, characters with less lag on aerials have less reason to MC as they can just abuse their moves natural properties. The only way you can tailer MC to heavies is to make the characters with quick attacks have more lag, or reduce the nautral lag of heavies, or make MC character specific or something.

An MK would have waay less reason to MC attacks and would generally have to do it way less often than Ganon or Snake or Bowser or even DK.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Give the heavies a bigger shield to work with, or have it take much less of their shield to MC?

Just pitching ideas here. >_>

 

[GHNeko]

MC is a percentage based concept. And I already suggested character specific MC.


tbh, i disapprove of it because its just too foreign to meet the approval of the standard smasher.

 

[Shaya]

People still enjoy vBrawl (as do I), due to it's changes from the norm.
Also remember you're trying to interest the BRAWLERS as well.

MC is definitely not a foreign concept to the current generation of "standard [competitive] smasher".

 

[GHNeko]

...what.

Magus canceling IS foreign. No one, until Brawl+ fathomed the thought of sacrificing shield for reduced lag.

 

[Shaya]

I was referring to momentum cancelling ;_;

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree with Kupo. Also not for momentum canceling, but all along I've been for adding things that take tech skill. There seems to be some desire to make this into a strategy game where every single decision is an important and thoughtful one. This is an action game, there should be a considerable reward for having superior execution and technical ability IMHO.

Action game doesn't mean that you should be required to spend thousands of hours practicing various tech skills to even play. What it means is that you have to think quickly.

There's no point in creating additional barriers to gameplay if you don't have to, dependence on tech skill is actually a negative and in the long term creates a plateau for your skill.

However, tech skill often is a necessary exchange for depth, in which case it's tolerable, but always a disadvantage because of the entry barriers it places and the reliance it causes in the community.

Ultimately, at the top of the metagame, all tech skill is executed perfectly, and this holds true for the top levels of tournament play, all useful tech skill is performed reliably in a perfect manner which ultimately makes tech skill irrelevant.


Here's what is relevant, strategic skill, concepts like spacing and zoning. And of course having the strategic mindset to perform this in a fast paced game, thinking on your feet if you will. This is what separates the good from the great, not praying (if you don't recognize it, it's a ness AT).

 

[Revven]

But as I said, some moves in vBrawl even at kill percents don't incur the ability to air dodge/attack to momentum cancel. There is probably an inherent property to these moves. Sheik's ftilt goes from a move that incurs natural hitstun to one that incurs early air dodging, yet eventually will kill.

That's... because Sheik's Ftilt is a weak hit for a long *** time, that deals with hitstun and how powerful the attacks are.

Hitstun and strength of the move are directly related to Momentum Canceling. The only way to do what you want to do, the way I see it, is changing a hitbox's specific hitstun to be lower so you could MC it (but that's hurting the move by a lot, nerfing it in fact, as Momentum Canceling would keep them alive for a second longer). I'm not so sure any of us want to directly nerf a character's KO move unless they deserve it.

Sheik's Ftilt in Brawl, in general, has low base KB and pretty decent KBG. The reason it doesn't send into the tumble until like 80% or above (estimation, haven't touched Sheik in Brawl for awhile) is because of how weak the move is in KB and the complete lack of hitstun (yes, there's seriously no hitstun in Brawl, the default is .4, you go up to around our settings not exact setting but around there it is .48... we just added 8 to the default soo.... subtracting 8 from 8 makes it 0 which is .4... Just fyi).

 

[Deleted member]

That's... because Sheik's Ftilt is a weak hit for a long *** time, that deals with hitstun and how powerful the attacks are.

Hitstun and strength of the move are directly related to Momentum Canceling. The only way to do what you want to do, the way I see it, is changing a hitbox's specific hitstun to be lower so you could MC it (but that's hurting the move by a lot, nerfing it in fact, as Momentum Canceling would keep them alive for a second longer). I'm not so sure any of us want to directly nerf a character's KO move unless they deserve it.

Sheik's Ftilt in Brawl, in general, has low base KB and pretty decent KBG. The reason it doesn't send into the tumble until like 80% or above (estimation, haven't touched Sheik in Brawl for awhile) is because of how weak the move is in KB and the complete lack of hitstun (yes, there's seriously no hitstun in Brawl, the default is .4, you go up to around our settings not exact setting but around there it is .48... we just added 8 to the default soo.... subtracting 8 from 8 makes it 0 which is .4... Just fyi).

each hitbox has it's own hitstun modifier, though that is only used in a few moves (shieldbreaker I thought).

also we didn't just increase the hitstun by 0.08 to make it work. I haven't really figured out how the other write in the hitstun code works, but it is transferred to the data that handles a characters status

 

[Shaya]

Umm... Zero hit stun? Really? *sigh*. Hit stun exists, but in brawl attacking or air dodging cancels it (after certain conditions). You still can't JUMP or USE A SPECIAL until after your hitstun is over (unless you tumble cancel it first).

Marth's UNTIPPERED JAB NEVER EVER EVER sends into tumble, and kills (Set damage to 999%, jab, spam shield presses on the controller feel the VIBRATION not from dying, or if you're like me, check in debug code; Tumble cancels 13 frames later, Marth's jab will kill himself at 999% about 30 frames after lift off, and he can't air dodge to cancel tumble during this time) eventually.

The hit stun on Marth's jab starts at 10 (well in reality 11), 1 extra frame of hitstun is added every 11%. Why's Marth Jab so special? I dont know if any/many other moves have similar attributes, but I know Marth because I use him extensively...

A kill move still kills... You act like momentum cancelling makes killing someone until they're 200%+. This is only true with some characters, and if you hit them with a kill move that they DI -so well- (during hitlag) that they have them going the opposite direction you hit them (or if you didnt hit them in the right direction).

Kill moves that have reached kill percentages having reduced hitstun to incur "momentum cancelling techniques" is a possible addition to brawl+; as of right now I don't think you could just changes thing back to the way there were, it would require taking the 'idea' of momentum cancelling that was in vBrawl and moulding (i.e. most likely ASM coding) to reconstruct it in brawl+. Maybe? Maybe Not?

I don't see having momentum cancelling being a huge nerf to character's kill moves, more of a buff to individual characters with great momentum cancelling properties that have been exploded extensively in vBrawl's metagame.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

I thought momentum canceling was one of the most absurd things in brawl. I would like to see more SDI in brawl+ though. DI is not as small as n64 but its pretty close, especially against weaker hits. I would really like to see more DI in general. Regular brawls DI was dumb by how much, around melee would be ideal. Since the game moves so much slower however I would do it a little below melee in terms of amount of DI.

 

[kupo15]

As I said, our star coders are gone and Almas is doing Engine codes and PK has a massive list of codes hes working on. It's something we swept under the rug at the start of B+, but something I don't mind discussing again. I don't agree with Kupo's desires for certain tech skilll, but I do agree that some form of tech skill wouldn't hurt.

Unless your plan is to stray away completely from the smash formula, I don't think a Street Fighter based Smah bros is a good idea. This game was built on the premise of being easy to pick up, hard to master and both the previous smash games (melee more than 64) proved that you can have exceptional depth without arbitrary punishment from the game (ie: special bar and shield trade offs) Smash formula is a game that is designed for you to spam your best attacks and the only punishment you incur is from the opponent being able to find an opening with their best, or sometimes weak, attacks.

If your only idea of a good game is purely with external trade offs for performing moves and techniques, then I think you might have a hard time coming up with creative new mechanics that are available and that will be acceptable by the community. My ideals and foundation for the changes I suggest are rooted in what worked in the past and what brawl lacked. If I can't even get enough support on familiar concepts that worked in the past, then good luck getting support for crazy ideas that we have no idea how they will work out. Its those things that IMO will make brawl+ more foreign.

Action game doesn't mean that you should be required to spend thousands of hours practicing various tech skills to even play. What it means is that you have to think quickly.

You have to think quickly and perform the steps correctly under pressure which makes the game challenging and exciting. Easy games don't last 7+ years in tourneys. You also don't need the the tech skill to play the game. I somehow was perfectly fine playing noob melee way back when I knew nothing of the tourney scene.

dependence on tech skill is actually a negative and in the long term creates a plateau for your skill.

You can have superior tech skill and lousy critical thinking and still lose. You can also have superior thinking and lousy tech skill and lose. You need both technique and critical thinking. Your tech skill is nothing without the smarts to know how to fight. I can show off with double shines, wavedashing and the like and if thats all I know how to do, no doubt I will be creamed.

However, tech skill often is a necessary exchange for depth, in which case it's tolerable, but always a disadvantage because of the entry barriers it places and the reliance it causes in the community.

Ultimately, at the top of the metagame, all tech skill is executed perfectly, and this holds true for the top levels of tournament play, all useful tech skill is performed reliably in a perfect manner which ultimately makes tech skill irrelevant.

Well, if we assume everyone is perfect at the top of the metagame, then why even play the game? Its no different than watching two perfect computers battle each other. This is what practice does. You reward the players that practice which is a good thing. We don't want a game so easy to pick up that if you just have good smarts, you can put up a good fight and perhaps win. The technical aspect is a way for you to prove your dedication to the game and to reward the better player and the more active, cconsistent player. Just because you mastered techniques doesn't mean you don't have to prove that you can do it or that you won't make mistakes. It sounds to me that you only support games in which actions are performed by one button so that the entire focus is on the critical thinking and the technical aspects are done for you.

Here's what is relevant, strategic skill, concepts like spacing and zoning. And of course having the strategic mindset to perform this in a fast paced game, thinking on your feet if you will. This is what separates the good from the great, not praying (if you don't recognize it, it's a ness AT).

What does melee, MvC, GG, SF and all the great tourney worthy, non hacked, fighting games have in common? In addition to the fast paced reactionary skill and strategic skill that you mentioned, they are also very technical. Its the blend between fast thinking and fast fingers and the ability to control those fingers precisely is what makes fighting games good and challenging. I don't see why we shouldn't take a leaf from their book but instead go to make this game the easiest it can become.

 

[goodoldganon]

What tech skill do you want to bring to Brawl+. Brawl+ isn't missing much from the others tech skill wise and the two big ones I think you are supporting (correct me if I'm wrong) are L-canceling and Wavedashing. I don't like discussing L-canceling because both sides keep repeating themselves, but I'll reiterate...

You L-cancel EVERY aerial EVERY time. I really don't see how that adds depth. Never liked it in the previous smash games and I'm not starting now. You don't Jump Instal, Instant Air Dash, or Dash Brake every time in Guilty Gear cause sometimes it's not needed. It's up to the player to decide when and when not to do those things. L-canceling is the least deep tech skill ever and adds nothing to the game. There I said it.

Wavedashing was Melee's thing and I'd like to keep it that way. I don't know what made you change your mind about Wavedashing, but you used to hate it and call it nothing more then an exploit Brawl doesn't need. If nothing else, wavedashing comes at the price of the awful Melee Air Dodge. Sure we can do HAD, but then has it's own slew of problems.

What tech skill do people want? Jump-canceled grabs? I'd support that. I think they eclipse a few too many of the grab options, but we can work around that. But I really see no major tech skill that Brawl+ lacks that Melee or 64 had besides L-canceling and wavedashing and frankly L-canceling sucks and wavedashing has it's own problems.

EDIT: Watching a vid of Melee advanced techs and the only big one besides JC Grabs is Ledge Teching. Something we agreed to work on...

Also, on an aside, I strongly feel Melee is a popular fighting game because there is nothing quite like it and that is thanks to the recovery system. If every stage was a walk off stage and the game was balanced around that, Melee would have never become as popular as it was. Melee is popular mostly for being different, but also being fast pace and exciting to watch.

 

[GHNeko]

Grab Speed = X; Lag Postgrab = Y, Lag post dash grab = Z

Standing Grab = 1x ; 1y
Dashing Grab = 1.4x; 1z
DC Grab = 1.1x; 1y; side effects = cannot DC Grab during Init Dash
JC Grab = 1.2x; 0.6z; side effects = can JC grab during init dash and normal dash, suffers 60% of a missed dash grab, but comes out slower.



:O IZ DAT SUM OUT OF DA BOX THINKENZ!?

But yea, just an idea.

 

[cAm8ooo]

:O IZ DAT SUM OUT OF DA BOX THINKENZ!?

 

[kupo15]

What tech skill do you want to bring to Brawl+. Brawl+ isn't missing much from the others tech skill wise and the two big ones I think you are supporting (correct me if I'm wrong) are L-canceling and Wavedashing. I don't like discussing L-canceling because both sides keep repeating themselves, but I'll reiterate...


Wavedashing was Melee's thing and I'd like to keep it that way. I don't know what made you change your mind about Wavedashing, but you used to hate it and call it nothing more then an exploit Brawl doesn't need. If nothing else, wavedashing comes at the price of the awful Melee Air Dodge. Sure we can do HAD, but then has it's own slew of problems.

Wavedashing! OMG NO! NEVER! I have no idea why you would think that I want wavedashing in brawl+.

You L-cancel EVERY aerial EVERY time. I really don't see how that adds depth.

I'm quite aware that you have to press it every time to umm. "cancel the long lag from your aerials" It only makes sense that you must press a button if you want to cancel something. Besides the fact that its fun, it makes you need to be a little sharper if you want to use the most versatile form of comboing or attacking in the game which are aerials. Your not forced to use your aerials so if you don't want to cancel your lag, then either AC it or don't use them when they can't be ACed. If you think about it, you don't have to l cancel every aerial especially since most aerials in this game are better off ACing anyway. Also, its your choice to use an aerial and most importantly, your choice to SHFFL the aerial. This is one of those things where l canceling may not be there to add "true depth" that you want, but it does add a slight difficulty factor which is the other side of technical things that I think we need.

Never liked it in the previous smash games and I'm not starting now. You don't Jump Instal, Instant Air Dash, or Dash Brake every time in Guilty Gear cause sometimes it's not needed. It's up to the player to decide when and when not to do those things. L-canceling is the least deep tech skill ever and adds nothing to the game. There I said it.

I have to admit that I do not know the details of GG, just that its a technical fighting game.

What tech skill do people want?

Well, you also have your NADT, cleaning up the NASL would require a bit more technique, making the game a little faster would also help. Ledge teching is a general want, ledge canceled aerials (hey, another way to cancel your aerials, auto canceled, ledge canceled and l canceled), better meteor canceling, some form of crouch canceling .

Jump-canceled grabs? I'd support that.

I would like that

frankly L-canceling sucks

To you maybe. I enjoy it and I know a lot of people who do too.

Also, on an aside, I strongly feel Melee is a popular fighting game because there is nothing quite like it and that is thanks to the recovery system. If every stage was a walk off stage and the game was balanced around that, Melee would have never become as popular as it was. Melee is popular mostly for being different, but also being fast past and exciting to watch.

What about 64? I think you mean "smash" in general is about that. We have primitive 64, then smash took a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge leap forward with melee where the mechanics were just about perfected (the characters is what mostly made melee imbalanced over the mechanics) then vbrawl took an even bigger leap backwards. To me, brawl+ has yet to gain back the speed, excitement and the recovery aspect of melee that you just praised.

On another note, I am curious which is why I am asking. When someone says melee 2.0, what comes to your mind for what melee 2.0 is that makes the reaction negative? Seeing how melee is the best smash game to date and has set the bar really high, wouldn't it be better to compare brawl+ to melee instead of vbrawl? I ask because brawl+ in comparison to vbrawl is like melee to 64 but brawl+ compared to melee doesn't seem like it quite compares....yet. So it doesn't quite make sense why one would compare the progress of this game to a worse version of this game. I'm asking out of curiosity.

 

[Deleted member]

ok people this is leadin nowhere. we need to have a checklist on what defines a good techskill

-it gives you a tradeoff, both foing it and not doing it have their advantages
-it requires timing
-it needs to be situational (to a certain degree)

for the tradeoff I can think of a couple up and downs. (this applies to bith doing and not doing the techskill, usually the advantage of one being the disadvantage of the other)

advantages
-more damage
-put you in an advantageous position
-put your opponent in a disadvantageous position
-allows to continue a combo for longer
-grants reduction of damage on you
-grants you avoiding a hit/take less knockback

disadvantages
-less damage
-puts you in a disadvantageous position
-puts your opponent in an advantageous position
-stops a combo
-you recieve more damage
-you are required to take the hit/get more knockback

the tradeoffs can be expanded, but you get the general idea

 

[jokey665]

Besides the fact that its fun,

HOLY JEBUS BUTTS that is the most false statement I've seen in a long while. And I've seen some pretty blatant outright lies recently.

 

[Rudra]

HOLY JEBUS BUTTS that is the most false statement I've seen in a long while. And I've seen some pretty blatant outright lies recently.

I wouldnt call that false because "fun" is something thats very subjective.

 

[goodoldganon]

Well, you also have your NADT, cleaning up the NASL would require a bit more technique, making the game a little faster would also help. Ledge teching is a general want, ledge canceled aerials (hey, another way to cancel your aerials, auto canceled, ledge canceled and l canceled), better meteor canceling, some form of crouch canceling

Well, I'm interested to see if we pursue that hybrid NADT. I think it's a much better compromise then just saying 'wiggle out of the tumble or YOU CAN'T AD'

We discussed this. I think it's a cool side effect but also see your side. If it's 'cleaned' up I wouldn't be against it. I'd still like to keep auto snap side-Bs though... Also, if you are referring to grab ranges I'd rather they stay and if they don't characters need their recoveries buffed to compensate.

Don't we have a universal speed modifier. I'm for making the game SLIGHTLY faster, but nothing major. For every person that thinks Melee had a great pace I can find 2 people that think it was too fast. It's something to mess with because adding speed is the easiest way to make a game more technical. I REPEAT I DON'T WANT MUCH MORE SPEED BUT SOME WOULD BE NICE.

PK hates us all already, but maybe he or Almas can get ledge teching.

*Shrugs* I'm no Smash Pro (I'm a great player, just not tourney winning material) but I don't really see a point...

I thought we all agreed to work on this. Isn't it even in PK's code agenda?

Never really liked it in Melee and I don't think I really want it back. You have accidental power shielding, and I'd say accidental crouch canceling was the 'accidental PSing of Melee'. Besides, of things you want, this one comes at the high cost of a probable balance retooling.

On another note, I am curious which is why I am asking. When someone says melee 2.0, what comes to your mind for what melee 2.0 is that makes the reaction negative? I'm asking out of curiosity.

I think of the elitist attitude, wavedashing, speed, and L-canceling. And maybe the OoS options. Sequels change, for better or worse, and it's something we need to deal with when dealing with Brawl. The whole 'go play melee argument' is dumb, but it holds some truth. If people just want Melee with Snake, Sonic and MK that's cool, but I want something more and something different.

The elitist attitude is true to all competition, so I don't hold that against Melee and I don't expect Brawl and Brawl+ to be different. The other three are the big things I think of people adding when I think of Melee 2.0 I already told you that many people thought Melee was too fast and though we can say 'screw those noobs' one of Brawl+'s goals is to make a competitive smash that other people can get into. Melee was a pretty elite crowd. Increasing Brawl+'s speed by a small amount will help, but I think many people will agree with me that we don't need to increase it back to Melee speed.

I lost my train of thought halfway through 'what makes Melee 2.0' but hopefully you get my points. I don't disagree with you about adding tech skill to Brawl+, I just wish you barked up a different tree. No to l-canceling and things like that and yes to ledge teching, a slight increase speed and other things. Find that universal speed modifier and I'll talk to the other BRoomers and players and we can see if we can talk about a slight speed increase to Brawl+. Just remember, most of the tech skill you mentioned is being worked on at this moment in time, we just have one guy doing it all.


EDIT: Agreed with PK. Kupo listed his tech skill wishes and I disagree with a few, but I would not be against the following additions to Brawl+

• Shanus's Hybrid NADT code
• Slight speed increase
• Ledge teching
• Better meteor canceling.

Those 4 additions would be more then enough tech skill to the game

 

[GHNeko]

I'm surprised anyone can consider muscle memory fun.

I'm surprised anyone can even think, "Hey! L-Canceling is fun."

Also, L-Canceling in melee is not a requirement, but really, it is a"requirement"

There is only bad from not L-canceling.

 

[Deleted member]

as with all my agenda and stuff I plan it is always surpassing deadlines. it's more that at that time I was taking a lot of requests and wanted to get it organised.

and I'm in my finals now so not much is getting done. (as B+ is in turn distracting me from learnign >_<)

EDIT: what neko said, is you look at my list you nitce L-cancel fails hard for the tradeoff, which is the most important part of even a mildly deep tech skill

 

[Shell]

For a game that up to now has been all about accessibility, I don't think we should abandon one of our chief goals.

I think there are two types of techskill which would be appropriate, though:

1) Technically difficult, but not essential to the core metagame. Think moonwalking -- it can be a little tricky to learn, and mastering it gives you a sexy, situational technique, not something that will instantly put a gap between those that know it and those that don't. (I'm not advocating Moonwalking, per se, just that it's a good example for the category)

2) Technically easy, but enriching to the core metagame. Think RARing -- It's not hard to learn, but it opens up new options.

Anything in these two categories would be great for the depth of the game, adding complexity without changing the learning curve too drastically. Also, it should benefit most characters fairly equally.

Also, M-canceling doesn't really fall into either of these categories, but I think it could be a solid addition as long as it remains a rather situational technique, not a mindless, mandatory wall to climb over for new players.

 

[Deleted member]

I think M-canceling would fall into the sort of techskill I described, ehich is more of a situational decision you have to make sort of techskill

 

[Toadster5]

Don't know if this belongs here but can Gecko be used to hack Melee?

 

[GHNeko]

Don't know if this belongs here but can Gecko be used to hack Melee?

No.

10No.

Sorry. >:

 

[kupo15]

I'm surprised anyone can consider muscle memory fun.

I'm surprised anyone can even think, "Hey! L-Canceling is fun."

Also, L-Canceling in melee is not a requirement, but really, it is a"requirement"

There is only bad from not L-canceling.

You can't tell me how to have fun sakurai. If it wasn't fun, you wouldn't see people show off shffling inbetween stocks and stuff like that. The truth is, muscle memory is needed in everything you do so if you hate muscle memory fun, then there must not be much you find fun.

Gog: No. Remove all auto sweet spotting except from above

 

[Deleted member]

You can't tell me how to have fun sakurai. If it wasn't fun, you wouldn't see people show off shffling inbetween stocks and stuff like that. The truth is, muscle memory is needed in everything you do so if you hate muscle memory fun, then there must not be much you find fun.

Gog: No. Remove all auto sweet spotting except from above

no. just no.
they do that:
a) to show off
b) to keep the muscle memory in top condition

yes most things you do in a game in muscle memory, but very few are plain and dumb muscle memory.
most things actually require you to decide which muscle memory you use.

 

[goodoldganon]

Fine we agree to disagree on L-canceling. I hate it and so do a lot of other people just like I'm sure others like it. Can we discuss other technical aspects? As I said, I just think you are barking up the wrong tree Kupo. L-canceling and crouch canceling aren't what people want back.

 

[GHNeko]

You can't tell me how to have fun sakurai. If it wasn't fun, you wouldn't see people show off shffling inbetween stocks and stuff like that. The truth is, muscle memory is needed in everything you do so if you hate muscle memory fun, then there must not be much you find fun.

Did I ever ****ing say how you should have fun? No.

I just said, and I ****ing quote.

I'm surprised anyone can consider muscle memory fun.

I'm surprised anyone can even think, "Hey! L-Canceling is fun."

The act of L-Cancel which becomes muscle memory and something you do NOT think about out of a match, is hard for me to believe to be fun. But hey, I never said it couldnt be nor will I ever.

wtf kupo.

And dont assume people Show off SHFFLs because L-Canceling is fun. That is an assumption you're making for the people who play Melee, and something that you have no right to insinuate without a survey that can accurately and truthfully represent the populace of melee players. .___.

 

[Eaode]

1) L-canceling is simply a tool to make sure you're alert, and a potential opening for your opponent if you're not playing properly
2) People DO miss L-cancels! It's something you can plan on, it's something you can set up, and it's something you can use to punish
3) the example that tech skill is irrelevant at the top level of play is fundamentally flawed because being completely fluent in tech skill is part of what makes it the top level of play. It's like saying "Oh, good players are already good at this, so let's make EVERYBODY able to do it easily!"

Now I'm not specifically advocating L-Canceling, just elaborating on an example to explain to those who seem to hold no value for tech skill whatsoever, that it IS important. There needs to be a reward for being dedicated and being experienced, and personally, when I learn and apply a new tech proficiently in a match, I get excited, and I get motivated. It's much more fulfilling than something purely strategic like "oh look I just spaced that fair well," or "I just predicted an airdodge and got a grab, hooray for me." Frankly, that's the kind of thrill that people have to squeeze out of vBrawl <.<;