COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

Ok, I booted up Melee again, and I noticed something interesting.

It's true that once you begin your falling animation, you rapidly decelerate into your normal momentum. However, performing an aerial just prior to that moment seems to extend your momentum for a little bit longer, and thus makes you go a little farther. Try doing a full dash jump with Falcon, then try it again, but right before entering the falling animation, perform the knee. You'll land a bit farther than usual.

Thats interesting. I think that will work like that when air moves don't kill momentum

I'll fix it tomorrow.

Ok. Thanks for your hard work spunit!

 

[B.W.]

Ok, I booted up Melee again, and I noticed something interesting.

It's true that once you begin your falling animation, you rapidly decelerate into your normal momentum. However, performing an aerial just prior to that moment seems to extend your momentum for a little bit longer, and thus makes you go a little farther. Try doing a full dash jump with Falcon, then try it again, but right before entering the falling animation, perform the knee. You'll land a bit farther than usual.

This could actually cause a bit of trouble.

A lot of people were very much like "ZOMG Falcon moves too fast I can't hit people for my life!"

If we were to make it work like that would we not get the whole not being able to control someone problem all over again? We'd get rid of momentum off the edge, which is nice, but what will we do about the control problem? Do we leave it as is and tell people to "learn to play with it" or alter it so that the aerial game can still be slowed in some way to help control?

 

[Trillion]

The short answer is that most of those codes would be more trouble to code than they're probably worth, so you will likely have trouble getting a coder to take any of those on. Currently, the best we can offer is a very nice code which freezes a stage's hazards but keeps the background animation playing. Check out the code agenda for more details.

@spunit, kupo: Good luck guys, I need to sleep. It looks really promising.

Thank you for the quick answer. My hope had been that maybe certain stage hacks could make some stages more fun or more useful for competitive play. I really wish there was a way that I could play whatever music I wanted. Again thank you very much for the polite and fast answer.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

spunit:
air dodges for all the characters i tested stop jump momentum except for lucarios.
neutral B moves for almost all the characters i tested continue with jump momentum except for falcon's B. i think we want to keep jump momentum on this move. but a B move like ness' should probably stop momentum.

 

[cooler1339]

This could actually cause a bit of trouble.

A lot of people were very much like "ZOMG Falcon moves too fast I can't hit people for my life!"

If we were to make it work like that would we not get the whole not being able to control someone problem all over again? We'd get rid of momentum off the edge, which is nice, but what will we do about the control problem? Do we leave it as is and tell people to "learn to play with it" or alter it so that the aerial game can still be slowed in some way to help control?

Noobs shouldn't pick Falcon. There isn't much of them anyways because he was so bad in vBrawl. First time I tried the momentum code I was throwing knees like crazy.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Yeah, flying past your PK Thunder and shooting offstage would pretty much blow. >_>

 

[B.W.]

Noobs shouldn't pick Falcon. There isn't much of them anyways because he was so bad in vBrawl. First time I tried the momentum code I was throwing knees like crazy.

Falcon I can understand. The only character I think would take butthurt by the code is Sonic. His spin dash moves need for the momentum to stop so you can combo with them. We could probably fix this with a character specific code though.

 

[GPDP]

Thank you for the quick answer. My hope had been that maybe certain stage hacks could make some stages more fun or more useful for competitive play. I really wish there was a way that I could play whatever music I wanted. Again thank you very much for the polite and fast answer.

There's codes for that already. Look in the My Music thread.

This could actually cause a bit of trouble.

A lot of people were very much like "ZOMG Falcon moves too fast I can't hit people for my life!"

If we were to make it work like that would we not get the whole not being able to control someone problem all over again? We'd get rid of momentum off the edge, which is nice, but what will we do about the control problem? Do we leave it as is and tell people to "learn to play with it" or alter it so that the aerial game can still be slowed in some way to help control?

Don't sweat it. Already this code is looking up, since your momentum now goes down to normal once you begin falling, which leads to more control and less slip n' sliding. If spunit can't make it so that aerials keep your momentum going just a tiny bit longer like in Melee, then it's no big deal. But even if he did, the distance gained was minuscule. It was just something I noticed and felt I should point out. Though I suppose it would be better if it didn't happen, as chances are it would lead to more sliding upon landing.

 

[plasmatorture]

Momentum seems very ****ed up, much more than just issues with attacks canceling it. With the latest code, I'm getting random jumps with momentum from standing, and if dash dancing to jump is supposed to work the way it's happening I might as well give up on the code because it's horrible this way.

 

[GPDP]

Momentum seems very ****ed up, much more than just issues with attacks canceling it. With the latest code, I'm getting random jumps with momentum from standing, and if dash dancing to jump is supposed to work the way it's happening I might as well give up on the code because it's horrible this way.

You shouldn't be getting random jumping while standing anymore. Though yeah, if you run and stop, you'll store the momentum, and thus when you jump next time, even if you're not running or if you jump backwards, you'll apply that stored momentum. But it doesn't happen on standing jumps.

Also, the backwards jump is a bit improved, as you no longer always feel like you're being pushed forward, but when running, you can't just stop and jump backwards still. You still jump forward, but with the backward jump animation. And you still get momentum from being pushed by a character. Footstool jumps don't act weird anymore, though.

And please, don't give up on the code. It's still not finished. Spunit is taking his time with it, is all.

 

[plasmatorture]

You shouldn't be getting random jumping while standing anymore. Though yeah, if you run and stop, you'll store the momentum, and thus when you jump next time, even if you're not running or if you jump backwards, you'll apply that stored momentum. But it doesn't happen on standing jumps.

Also, the backwards jump is a bit improved, as you no longer always feel like you're being pushed forward, but when running, you can't just stop and jump backwards still. You still jump forward, but with the backward jump animation. And you still get momentum from being pushed by a character. Footstool jumps don't act weird anymore, though.

And please, don't give up on the code. It's still not finished. Spunit is taking his time with it, is all.

I'm just saying if that was working as intended I would give up on it, as people have recently said that it was pretty much perfect. Spunit is amazing and I'm glad he's gotten it this far, but there's a lot left to be fixed it seems.

I suppose most situations were dash, then stand, then jump, which should not give momentum and is a pretty big deal obviously. Same with the ridiculous way it affects jumping out of a dash dance.

 

[GPDP]

Yeah, it's not yet working as fully intended. The only part that is working so far is the dash jump itself, and how it loses momentum upon going into the falling animation, as well as the lack of walk-off edges and special momentum. Everything else needs work.

 

[Trillion]

There's codes for that already. Look in the My Music thread.

Oh, I'm sorry I didn't realize that. Thank you very much for the info!!!

 

[B.W.]

I wonder if you keep your momentum if you fast fall a normal jump and fast fall aerials.. I'll check it another time if someone doesn't do it themselves soon as I need to sleep, and I'm comfortable in my bed.

 

[trojanpooh]

Whats the current status of the horizontal momentum code? Is it ready for use yet, or is it still only for those who can't live without it?

 

[Shell]

Are you serious? People are discussing it all around you. Please take a moment to read back a few pages.

Sorry, I'm grumpy.

 

[trojanpooh]

Don't worry about it, and I'm also to blame, I didn't read this thread since last night and wrote that without actually checking back in. Was pretty stupid of me.

 

[kupo15]

This could actually cause a bit of trouble.

A lot of people were very much like "ZOMG Falcon moves too fast I can't hit people for my life!"

If we were to make it work like that would we not get the whole not being able to control someone problem all over again? We'd get rid of momentum off the edge, which is nice, but what will we do about the control problem? Do we leave it as is and tell people to "learn to play with it" or alter it so that the aerial game can still be slowed in some way to help control?

Don't worry about it. We can't expect to hold ppls hands. If sonic is too fast for them, its their fault

spunit:
air dodges for all the characters i tested stop jump momentum except for lucarios.
neutral B moves for almost all the characters i tested continue with jump momentum except for falcon's B. i think we want to keep jump momentum on this move. but a B move like ness' should probably stop momentum.

Interesting, so only certain b moves are affected, some we want and don't want

Falcon I can understand. The only character I think would take butthurt by the code is Sonic. His spin dash moves need for the momentum to stop so you can combo with them. We could probably fix this with a character specific code though.

Don't play sonic. Its their fault

Momentum seems very ****ed up, much more than just issues with attacks canceling it. With the latest code, I'm getting random jumps with momentum from standing, and if dash dancing to jump is supposed to work the way it's happening I might as well give up on the code because it's horrible this way.

WTF is your problem???? Did you read!??

I'll fix it tomorrow.

Dude (plasmatora) calm down. Geez

I'm just saying if that was working as intended I would give up on it, as people have recently said that it was pretty much perfect. Spunit is amazing and I'm glad he's gotten it this far, but there's a lot left to be fixed it seems.

I suppose most situations were dash, then stand, then jump, which should not give momentum and is a pretty big deal obviously. Same with the ridiculous way it affects jumping out of a dash dance.

He actually is almost there. Just a small tweak in the coding for how to gather momentum. He sent out many versions of the code so the one in the OP isn't the most updated. Will do now.

Yea spunit, if you run then let go of the joystick, then jump as soon as you start to skid, you get momentum and you should not

 

[shanus]

There are multiple clear bugs with the momentum code. Cool tricks too.

First off, c-sticking aerials applies momentum. Standing SH bairs with cstick actually causes you to move.

Then the obvious error with aerials stopping motion. It seems like you might be able to fix it by adding in some sort of condition such that right now you get momentum only if the ActionID=Jump, make it work for ActionID=JUMP or ActionID=Jump&Aerial? Not sure if itll work or not, just an idea.

Also in terms of a neat trick. Run right, start a dash cancel pivot so roll cstick quickly down and then to the left, and time jump properly. You will do a pivot full momentum jump to the left. Very cool. Its nice that you can do this and you can also RAR as well.

Also, 80% is still too high. 60% will prolly be better.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Dude calm down. Geez

Who says hes not calm? It was like 2AM when he made that post or something lol.

 

[kupo15]

Who says hes not calm? It was like 2AM when he made that post or something lol.

haha that statement was made towards plasma, not spunit. I edited my post reflecting that. Thanks for catching that

 

[Dark Sonic]

Don't play sonic. Its their fault

Spin dashes do need to cancel momentum when you exit them, because they can't combo otherwise. Like they litterally cannot chain into any move except for the first hit of uair (and only the first hit, because that particular hitbox just so happens to make the second hit miss).

Other than that though...Sonic's fine with momentum stuff (minus run off momentum of course). If you keep momentum while initiating a spindash...that's fine. To me, control is only an issue if you've literally taken away options (or made some options worse). As long as stuff is still possible, I'm fine with it being more difficult (provided there is some other benefit gained with the change).

 

[kupo15]

Spin dashes do need to cancel momentum when you exit them, because they can't combo otherwise. Like they litterally cannot chain into any move except for the first hit of uair (and only the first hit, because that particular hitbox just so happens to make the second hit miss).

Other than that though...Sonic's fine with momentum stuff (minus run off momentum of course). If you keep momentum while initiating a spindash...that's fine.

DS, we are not talking about the special move. We are talking about those players who complain that they can't control him in the air while jumping from the momentum. Its your fault if you can't handle sonics air momentum speed.

Here is a big question. Should we have air dodges cancel momentum or should it be applied to it?

 

[Blank Mauser]

haha that statement was made towards plasma, not spunit. I edited my post reflecting that. Thanks for catching that

Ah okay, I proly should've guessed that. ^^;

I think Sonic's spindash is harder to combo with, but not impossible. It does leave less options when you have momentum though, but I don't think any of those options are very noteworthy. I wouldn't mind momentum on spindash at all.

 

[trojanpooh]

I could see it working either way. On the one hand, air dodges have always been momentum based in brawl, but on the other hand, momentum canceling could be interesting. I'm leaning towards keeping the speed though as it would really over power projectiles as a way of keeping you from recovering.

 

[kupo15]

it should cancel momentum.

So all that is left to do with the momentum code is:

Remove unwanted momentum (skid)
Allow proper air moves to keep momentum (the ones that don't affect your air movement at all)

I could see it working either way. On the one hand, air dodges have always been momentum based in brawl, but on the other hand, momentum canceling could be interesting. I'm leaning towards keeping the speed though as it would really over power projectiles as a way of keeping you from recovering.

It won't affect your recovering because you have no ground to get momentum from

 

[trojanpooh]

True, I was imagining it like a neutral MAD. What does it actually do, bring you to normal speed?

 

[Sanu]

I *don't* think the air dodge should momentum cancel. Then people will start using that as an aid in their DI... Even though we have hitstun in Brawl+, it still doesn't last forever. In this way, people who were supposed to be KOed vertically or horizontally will be able to survive for longer...

Unless the only momentum that is canceled by the air dodge is the running jump momentum.

 

[Shell]

The second part of your post answered your own suspicions.

 

[Dark Sonic]

DS, we are not talking about the special move. We are talking about those players who complain that they can't control him in the air while jumping from the momentum. Its your fault if you can't handle sonics air momentum speed.

Oh...that's fine.

Here is a big question. Should we have air dodges cancel momentum or should it be applied to it?

Personally, I think they should cancel the running momentum. Airdodges keeping momentum makes pressuring with projectiles completely ineffective.

I think Sonic's spindash is harder to combo with, but not impossible. It does leave less options when you have momentum though, but I don't think any of those options are very noteworthy. I wouldn't mind momentum on spindash at all.

You can't combo bair or dair with it at all, and fair and nair only works if the opponent was in the air and you hit them with an SDJ, and did the fair or nair immediately (although you'll still fly past them after the first couple of hits of fair, so it still doesn't combo). To get any sort of old combos, you have to waste your second jump to cancel the momentum.

It doesn't have many notable uses, but it does have uses and they should be preserved. There's no reason to get rid of it (and don't say so he could use SDJ for followups, because dash jumping is a superior followup option anyway)

Unless the only momentum that is canceled by the air dodge is the running jump momentum.

Yeah, I think that's what it does (I actually haven't tested it yet, since I don't have access to my Wii right now).

 

[kupo15]

Personally, I think they should cancel the running momentum. Airdodges keeping momentum makes pressuring with projectiles completely ineffective.

.

I would have to agree. It can be hard hitting a sonic who air dodges across the stage.

 

[Sanu]

The second part of your post answered your own suspicions.

Ok, to further elaborate then.. does it cancel only the jump momentum portion that's being added on so we're left over with the original momentum from vBrawl? Or does it cancel the jump momentum completely?

Doesn't seem like that mechanic is going to be changed anyways (projectile spam), but I'm just curious.

 

[spunit262]

Momentum Capture [Phantom wings, spunit262]
048668AC 60000000
C28669D8 00000008
C04283D8 FC011040
41820030 C0020008
40A00008 FC000050
807D007C 80630038
2C03000E 41820014
2C03000B 40A20010
C03B0018 FC210032
D03B0008 00000000
045A9328 3F4CCCCD

Rob still has momentum on his side-B but most other don't, and AD doesn't cancel momentum (I'm not surprised that you want momentum cancel momentum, I had a feeling the you might want it that way).

048668AC 60000000
C28669D8 00000008
C04283D8 FC011040
41820030 C0020008
40A00008 FC000050
807D007C 80630038
2C03000B 40A2000C
C03B0018 FC210032
2C030022 40800008
D03B0008 00000000
045A9328 3F4CCCCD

 

[kupo15]

Great spunit! Its just about done.

Is it possible to get rid of skid momentum?

All specials seem to be affected. There has to be a trigger that enables certain types of specials. Its mostly neutral b moves that should be affected. Here is a list of moves that should get momentum:

Mario:
B
Down B

Link:
B
side b

Falcon
B

Basically, any special that alters your air moment should NOT get any momentum and the ones that don't like the falcon punch should not affect momentum. Can someone double check that what Im saying is right?

EDIT: New code? testing!

 

[osh77]

jeeze

possibly perfect.... must do more testing but im loving this latest one so far
no standstill glitch
no flying edges

edit: Do we want momentum to slow on the down arc?

 

[kupo15]

The code doesn't affect ganon or falco?

This code should only turn on when you are in the "dash id" and reset itself when its turned off. I can run, hold down and back, jump and fly backwards as fast as if I moved forward which doesn't make physical sense.

Maybe you should come in the IRC. It would be much easier to communicate

http://www.gamesurge.net/chat/BrawlPlus

 

[GPDP]

jeeze

possibly perfect.... must do more testing but im loving this latest one so far
no standstill glitch
no flying edges

edit: Do we want momentum to slow on the down arc?

Yes, we do want that. It's how Melee worked, and it worked well to control the distance gained. and helps control excessive sliding.

 

[kupo15]

Guys, can someone help. Was the falcon punch the only move to keep momentum in melee?

EDIT: Nvm, falcos lasers, boomerrang, fireballs and stuff. I just tested melee

There has to be some flag that distinguishes between momentum and non momentum based specials. Im almost positive because in regualar brawl, certain specials didn't interrupt your air speed and certain ones did. Falcon punch kept whatever air speed you had, jiggs pound or marths side be did not.

 

[GPDP]

Alright, so far, I'm really liking the code, bar a few things that still need addressing.

The momentum capture and deceleration works just like it should. I noticed that the thing I pointed out last night about how in Melee, doing an aerial prior to the momentum loss made you keep the momentum going for a little bit longer still applies. Of course, this results in you gaining more distance due to the sliding, but we're probably gonna incorporate friction soon, so that's a moot point. Plus, it actually increases your options, as you can choose to perform the aerial right after you decelerate, and thus hit a closer target, or you can try it right before and fast fall it for a target that is farther away.

Specials such as Ganon's murder choke still get extra momentum applied to them, so we should look into that.

Also, momentum still gets stored, which means that if you stop after a dash, then jump either forward or backward, you'll apply the extra momentum. This shouldn't happen. Another thing that bugs me is that you cannot dash, then immediately jump backwards to fake an opponent out. You launch forward at all times.

But yeah, you're getting closer, spunit. Awesome work so far. What works, works amazing.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Huh. I hated the momentum code last time, but I'm really liking it now.

Sonic's a bit unwieldy as of now though. If you want to short hop something and hit your opponent, they have to be on the other side of the stage or right next to you. xD

Pretty much what GPDP said though. >_>
I can't really put it better.