Close, Please, and sticky the official tier list.

[llamapaste]

They have Fox as the best.

 

[Quic]

he's clearly talking PAL

jiggs is the best in PAL, not NTSC

Let me clear this up, if you can't beat a Jigglypuff in PAL an upgraded upsmash for Fox, an upgraded downair for Falco, or a better d-throw for Sheik won't make you beat him in NTSC, being able to kill him able to kill 15 percent earlier won't help you enough to overcome that.
Jiggs is either the best in pal, and then also the best in NTSC, or she isn't in both versions, the character changes aren't big enough to warrant such a drastic change in placement.

 

[Dark Hart]

shadowball camping

/argument

... doesn't work...

 

[BEES]

Let me clear this up, if you can't beat a Jigglypuff in PAL an upgraded upsmash for Fox, an upgraded downair for Falco, or a better d-throw for Sheik won't make you beat him in NTSC, being able to kill him able to kill 15 percent earlier won't help you enough to overcome that.
Jiggs is either the best in pal, and then also the best in NTSC, or she isn't in both versions, the character changes aren't big enough to warrant such a drastic change in placement.

Disagree.

It makes a critical psychological difference. A missed rest means a stock loss for Puff sooner in NTSC. Fox punishes with lasers/usmash. That threat is lower in PAL, so Puff can take more risks. A Fox fighting a Puff in PAL has to put up with more utilt rest, uair rest attempts, and considering how much more work he has to do to kill Jiggs, that can really wear him down.

Whether you think that changes the matchup from 60:40 to 55:45, or whether it makes it even, that is very significant to Puff's placement on the tier list, because Fox is her only counter in NTSC.

 

[G.L.]

id say falco does better at tourneys but idk fox is still good

 

[EPsilon933]

Disagree.

It makes a critical psychological difference. A missed rest means a stock loss for Puff sooner in NTSC. Fox punishes with lasers/usmash. That threat is lower in PAL, so Puff can take more risks. A Fox fighting a Puff in PAL has to put up with more utilt rest, uair rest attempts, and considering how much more work he has to do to kill Jiggs, that can really wear him down.

Whether you think that changes the matchup from 60:40 to 55:45, or whether it makes it even, that is very significant to Puff's placement on the tier list, because Fox is her only counter in NTSC.

Fox's perfect rest punish (frame human perfect)
laser x a lot
uncharged upsmash
47%

This is just from memory, but I think Jigglypuff would die on DreamLand at about 58%, ignoring stale moves and DI. On Yoshi's Story it would be maybe 48%. If you want to factor in Smash DI, I think you can multiply these values by 1.4 (I got the number 1.4 by trigonometry, assuming Smash DI changes the angle you're sent at by 45 degrees), so DreamLand would be 81% and Yoshi's Story would be 67%. This is NTSC.

This is all based on vertical KO resistance, a bit of trigonometry, and stage ceiling heights tests I've done like a year ago.

[collapse=Old Notes]Vertical KO resistance

Percentaes mean that at a characters certain percentae, they will get star k.o.'ed on Final Destination (This ignores stale moves and DI) by Fox's fully charged up smash

Jiglypuff: 31%
Mr. Game & Watch: 35%
Kirby: 38%
Pichu: 39%
Mewtwo: 42%
Zelda: 43%
Peach: 44%
Ice Climbers: 45% (tested on one Ice Climber)
Pikachu: 45%
Luigi: 48%
Ness: 49%
Marth: 50%
Samus: 50%
Doctor Mario: 50%
Mario: 50%
Youn Link: 50%
Sheik: 52%
Roy: 53%
Fox: 56%
Yoshi: 56%
Link: 57%
Ganondorf: 58%
Bowser: 60%
Falco: 61%
Donkey Kong: 64%
Captain Falcon: 68%


Oh, wait, my ceiling heights tests also included Jigglypuff (NTSC)

Fox upsmash against Jigglypuff - captain Falcon (kills at %)

Neutral stages

Yohsi's Story
50%-96%

Pokemon Stadium
52%-99%

Final Destination
54%-101%

BattleFeild
57%-105%

Fountain of Dreams
57%-105%

Dream Land 64
66%-117%

Counter pick

Green Greens
46%- 89%

Corneria
49%-97%

Mute City
57%-105%

Brinstar
58%-106%

Kongo Jungle 64
64%-115%

Jungle Japes
65%-115%

[/collapse]

I've heard that in PAL Peach dies 17% later than in NTSC.

I think all these notes are complete bullpoop.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Stop being ******** assh0le and learn to fight Jugglopuff she's not that hard.


Stop scrubbing off and give her the ****

 

[hungrybox]

Stop being ******** assh0le and learn to fight Jugglopuff she's not that hard.


Stop scrubbing off and give her the ****

pretty much this

 

[Quic]

Disagree.

It makes a critical psychological difference. A missed rest means a stock loss for Puff sooner in NTSC. Fox punishes with lasers/usmash. That threat is lower in PAL, so Puff can take more risks. A Fox fighting a Puff in PAL has to put up with more utilt rest, uair rest attempts, and considering how much more work he has to do to kill Jiggs, that can really wear him down.

Whether you think that changes the matchup from 60:40 to 55:45, or whether it makes it even, that is very significant to Puff's placement on the tier list, because Fox is her only counter in NTSC.

You are missing my point, the difference is there, but what I said was 'if you can't beat puff in PAL you're not going to in NTSC' and I still think that holds up, Puff still can't live a missed rest after 25%, and the match is more about being smart about lasers anyway, punishing rest is in no way the entire Fox-Jiggs matchup, if you can't get around her play style in PAL, the NTSC boost won't do enough to rectify that.

 

[cablepuff]

Stop being ******** assh0le and learn to fight Jugglopuff she's not that hard.


Stop scrubbing off and give her the ****

I think he basically says stop being ******** and pick up fox.

 

[rhan]

I agree with both of these. Edit: except that Puff should be switched with Sheik. there's really no argument there.

+1 for ICG tier, I can never understand what the **** he's talking about
+1 for Roy da bess

I don't believe that Jiggs is better than Sheik. People still don't know how to play against Jiggs and Sheik is pretty strong.

 

[cablepuff]

I don't believe that Jiggs is better than Sheik. People still don't know how to play against Jiggs and Sheik is pretty strong.

jiggly "supposely destorys" sheik (which i disagree.. i give it 50 to 50 or 45 to 55 sheik) and she definitely does better on fox than sheik does and does better on falco.

 

[nicaboy]

hey kk armada agrees with me get wrecked!
edit i would like to give puff some of this black snake between me legs

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik isn't good...

She's fabulous.

Except vs Puff and IC.



edit:

nicaboy appeals to authority for wisdom but also doesn't realize that Armada also thinks Puff is the best character in the game and wants her banned, or wanted her banned. While I respect Armada as a player, I'm certainly not too concerned with what he thinks in terms of character rankings.

I'll bite though. Why do you think Falco is worse than Sheik?

Sheik does better vs Fox than Puff does, but also does worse or about the same vs Falco.

 

[NeutralDamage]

Stop being ******** assh0le and learn to fight Jugglopuff she's not that hard.


Stop scrubbing off and give her the ****

You're speaking like someone actually could defeat the top puffs, when the truth is, up to date, nobody(you included ) couldn't. So you're just as retarted as all of us for not being able to beat her xD. And LOL @ Hbox even quoting it .

You guys just keep on talking, and after Jigglypuff has won every major tourney for the next two years, just keep on talking that she aint that hard. I mean you have said the same thing after Pound 3 to this date, so why not for a couple years more? If it makes you feel good to believe then go for it, after all, it's good to live in faith they say xD.

 

[nicaboy]

Sheik isn't good...

She's fabulous.

Except vs Puff and IC.



edit:

Nicaboy tries to appeal to authority but also doesn't realize that Armada also thinks Puff is the best character in the game and wants her banned, or wanted her banned. While I respect Armada as a player, I'm certainly not too worried about what he thinks in terms of character rankings.

Sheik does better vs Fox than Puff does, but also does worse or about the same vs Falco.

ok love you know except about sheik vs puff.

i think sheik does better vs fox(sheik is at a slight disadvantage imo) but puff does way better vs falco. puff beats falco.

 

[BEES]

You are missing my point, the difference is there, but what I said was 'if you can't beat puff in PAL you're not going to in NTSC' and I still think that holds up, Puff still can't live a missed rest after 25%, and the match is more about being smart about lasers anyway, punishing rest is in no way the entire Fox-Jiggs matchup, if you can't get around her play style in PAL, the NTSC boost won't do enough to rectify that.

Obviously Fox doesn't normally get kills against Puff with his smashes. It's not the whole game; nobody's saying that it is.

Still, having a larger window to get those risky-yet-easy kills in PAL is important. It does nudge the matchup away from Fox.

-If Jiggs misses a rest at slightly higher percents, she will not suffer a stock-loss.
-If Jiggs lands the rest but Fox survives, she will not suffer a stock-loss until she's at a higher percent.
-If Jiggs lands the rest and Fox DIs horizontally to die sooner... to get back to her in time, same thing.
-Fox is slightly lighter in PAL. He should die from any of Puff's finishers ever-so-slightly sooner.

If you can only barely beat Jiggs with Fox in NTSC, there is a good chance you will lose against Jiggs in PAL. If you can 3-stock a Puff in NTSC, you're probably safe against them, but in Melee there are many close matches, and some of those close matches would have different outcomes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're speaking like someone actually could defeat the top puffs, when the truth is, up to date, nobody(you included ) couldn't. So you're just as retarted as all of us for not being able to beat her xD. And LOL @ Hbox even quoting it .

You guys just keep on talking, and after Jigglypuff has won every major tourney for the next two years, just keep on talking that she aint that hard. I mean you have said the same thing after Pound 3 to this date, so why not for a couple years more? If it makes you feel good to believe then go for it, after all, it's good to live in faith they say xD.

That isn't because Jigglypuff is broken.
Let's look at the facts:
• Only two very top level player use her: hbox and Mango.
• They are currently two of the best, if not THE best players in the world at the moment.
• Mango still ***** when he uses Mario.

Conclusion: Mango and Hungry are just good.

 

[LLDL]

That isn't because Jigglypuff is broken.
Let's look at the facts:
• Only two very top level player use her: hbox and Mango.
• They are currently two of the best, if not THE best players in the world at the moment.
• Mango still ***** when he uses Mario.

Conclusion: Mango and Hungry are just good.

Why don't people realize this. I barely played any other jigglypuff players. Mango + Hungrybox do not equal the puff player population.

 

[CloneHat]

Conclusion: Mango and Hungry are just good.

No lie, I knew who Scorpion Master was after watching a set or two. Nobody else plays like that.

It would be cool to see how hungrybox' other characters play.

 

[Mew2King]

Jiggs IS broken. You can't base how good a char is by how popular she is. I could just say look at the success rate of the current Jiggs players, and her success rate is ridiculously high. She's dumb and definitely the best char in today's metagame. I also think Falco is better than Fox. I've thought this for a very long time. Falcos ALWAYS do better than fox's in tournament, like, almost every single time, for many years now.

 

[n1000]

That isn't because Jigglypuff is broken.
Let's look at the facts:
• Only two very top level player use her: hbox and Mango.
• They are currently two of the best, if not THE best players in the world at the moment.
• Mango still ***** when he uses Mario.

Conclusion: Mango and Hungry are just good.

NO Mango is good hungrybox is just cheap how do people not get this look at mangos secondaries he is amazing hbox is just bair that ist he top tier move and extra cheap

Spoiler

<3 hbox, play to win

 

[unknown522]

oh, so it's finally been made.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

mango can beat H-boxes puff with fox/falco/falcon

 

[n1000]

Proof or I'm calling shenanigans on Mango's Falcon beating Hbox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWrltai6kck

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWrltai6kck

 

[KirbyKaze]

**** OFF ICG I ALREADY POSTED THE LINK

<3

sup

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6H_-HOBFtk&feature=related

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

i'm in the lead.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wasn't going to post the second match lol

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

stop LOLing esle I may try to mess with you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mess with me, pichu main ;]

LOL

 

[NeutralDamage]

Why don't people realize this. I barely played any other jigglypuff players. Mango + Hungrybox do not equal the puff player population.

Tier List = metagame for the highest level of play. So of course we only include the best players of each character. For the current tier list it doesn't matter how noobs or even mediocre players do. Actually there might be some sense making a tier list for the mediocre level players, but this is not the time or place for that.

And it is NEVER about the character, ALWAYS about the player. Why? Well, because, players choose the characters, not vice versa. Choosing a character is just one of the many choises that you do when you play the game. I mean when you're fighting, you make many choises like when to hit, when to shield and so on. Choosing a character is no different, it is a choise so it is part of the skill to choose the character you have the best chance of winning. Good players do good choises, in the battle and in choosing the character for the battle. But just choosing a good character is not enough at all, you still need to make the last choises( which is pretty much the fighting part) very good to win. So Hungrybox and Mango are the bests, no doubt. They make good choises in the game, and one of their good choises have been the character.

Also one thing we have to understand is that the rules makes the game. In current rules, planking in Melee is not banned, so that makes Jigglypuff even more broken character than she is I guess. And about people not playing Jiggs so much: There are other reasons as well to play a character than to maximise your winning chances. Example many if not most people in europe(including me) thinks that Jigglypuff is very boring character to play. So I think that is one of the reasons she is not so much used. And that explains more of her bad popularity than the fact that she is a very good character to use.

 

[CloneHat]

A tier list measures the potential of each character based on their matchups and options, which are based off of tourney results.

They are not a measure of who the best player currently is.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff is gay you're all gay I'm gay Marth is gay Falcon sucks

 

[CloneHat]

Puff is gay you're all gay I'm gay Marth is gay Falcon sucks

You don't think Falcon is gay too?

 

[GreatRit]

yeah that knee...pretty sexual if you ask me.

 

[n1000]

**** isn't about sexuality it's about power

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Tier List = metagame for the highest level of play. So of course we only include the best players of each character. For the current tier list it doesn't matter how noobs or even mediocre players do. Actually there might be some sense making a tier list for the mediocre level players, but this is not the time or place for that.

And it is NEVER about the character, ALWAYS about the player. Why? Well, because, players choose the characters, not vice versa. Choosing a character is just one of the many choises that you do when you play the game. I mean when you're fighting, you make many choises like when to hit, when to shield and so on. Choosing a character is no different, it is a choise so it is part of the skill to choose the character you have the best chance of winning. Good players do good choises, in the battle and in choosing the character for the battle. But just choosing a good character is not enough at all, you still need to make the last choises( which is pretty much the fighting part) very good to win. So Hungrybox and Mango are the bests, no doubt. They make good choises in the game, and one of their good choises have been the character.

Also one thing we have to understand is that the rules makes the game. In current rules, planking in Melee is not banned, so that makes Jigglypuff even more broken character than she is I guess. And about people not playing Jiggs so much: There are other reasons as well to play a character than to maximise your winning chances. Example many if not most people in europe(including me) thinks that Jigglypuff is very boring character to play. So I think that is one of the reasons she is not so much used. And that explains more of her bad popularity than the fact that she is a very good character to use.

By this logic no one matters but for mango who can he beat armada, m2k, and bottom/low tier masters with? If he can beat all the best bottom tier players with pichu by your logic pichu is better. It's basically mango's list of who he is best as. So EVERYONE get out of the way because mango is like isai of this game. Isai can beat ANYONE with anyone easily and some of those people have been playing just as long and are top players that can try to beat him ALL day.

Seeing how at top level in ssb your logic says

Link=pikachu no one can beat that link or pikachu it's unbeatable. NO ISAI is JUST beyond everyone esle to the point where it's How you play not who you pick nearly as much you ******.


No really i'm tried of people being ******** If you have a coffee shop and your average comusmer earns like lets say $70,000 a year some less like $40,000 and other a little higher. If bill gates walks in there your like the mean is like millions so by this logic it's mostly millions that buy coffee there.

You can't purely take from the top nor the bottom your a fool if you do. high level should effect this but only small bits like axe with piakchu could place like 5th place at large tournments maining using pikachu like 80% of the time at least. Take a little bit lower high than him to rep pikachu think of pikachu as pikachu not axe. Axe uses mindgames does pikachu use mindgames can pikachu mindgame into approaching by simply picking pikachu? H*** no. mindgames can't be counted in the metagame. Nor can the mental part of the player like adapting and controling rage.

Also in ways yes who you play as picked you. Pichu perfectly fits HOW I play and want to play you could say fox is better but my pichu would still be better even if I played as fox just as much, why? pichu flows amazinly to me like comapreing how you many flow as yoshi but you won't flow like that as puff. I like camping a lot as pichu but fox bores me when I camp as him just because it's better doesn't mean it's better for me.








ALSO at KK the mindgame was you expected one. I fooled you into fooling yourself. I may suck but i'll mind **** the f*** out of who ever I play against.