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Church plans Quran-burning event on 9/11

El Nino

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It happens in America too.

Bill Clinton, talking in 2006 about the Danish drawings of Muhammad:
The talking figureheads on TV don't really represent ordinary people. They are more PC, but everyday people don't care about PC.

In your opinion, is criticism of Islam and associating Muhammad with violence equivalent to the mistreatment of Jews purely because of their race?
In your quote, he said, "prejudice" both times. "Prejudice" is equivalent to "prejudice," not to "mistreatment."

Also, just a quick observational issue: how many times has the word Islamophobic been tossed around in all these threads we've been debating with each other about Islam?
I don't know, but whether that label is appropriate would depend on what comment it was directed against.

Attacks on individuals obviously has no place within rational and respectable discourse. Unfortunately, people allow emotions and motives to dictate their actions.
Anti-Muslim sentiments in the U.S. come close to racism. The only reason it isn't racism is by definition, but often times the people who hate and/or fear Islam identify it with Middle Eastern descent, and they also tend to regard both Muslims and people from the Middle East as a race. The Census Bureau actually classifies Middle Eastern descent as Caucasian, but no one cares.

The hatred against Muslims in the U.S. looks and feels like xenophobia, and a lot of the people that express it are completely unable to separate religion from the person.

What is your opinion concerning Islam?
I have no opinion on Islam, nor on any other religion. I had a very secular upbringing. I respect boundaries as long as other people respect mine. So I'm not going to go out of my way to criticize a person's private beliefs, or a community's beliefs. The only time I'd get involved is when it involves laws, wars, violence, public policy, or other things that are going to affect me.

I do take issues with Sharia law though, in particular to the treatment of women and homosexuals. But that falls under the greater issue regarding non-secular and oppressive governments in general.

The only other thing I will say about that religion (and this may well apply to all religions) is that it isn't entirely uniform. There are differences in practice and different schools of thought.
 

~N9NE~

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The talking figureheads on TV don't really represent ordinary people. They are more PC, but everyday people don't care about PC.
It may not happen regularly on ground level, and it is apt to call bigots Islamophobic, but when people rationally criticise Islam then let's just accept it as that, rational criticism.
The hatred against Muslims in the U.S. looks and feels like xenophobia, and a lot of the people that express it are completely unable to separate religion from the person.
You know I'm against such a perspective.

On the same note, let's recognise the hatred against Non Muslims in Islamic states is also xenophobic in nature.

The only time I'd get involved is when it involves laws, wars, violence, public policy, or other things that are going to affect me.
Then you need to get involved.

The only other thing I will say about that religion (and this may well apply to all religions) is that it isn't entirely uniform. There are differences in practice and different schools of thought.
Agreed.

However, less popular schools of Islamic thought do not have as pronounced an impact on the global stage.

-

I'm not sure if this has been posted already

The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan warned Tuesday a Florida church's threat to burn copies of the Muslim holy book could endanger U.S. troops in the country and Americans worldwide.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/06/petraeus-warns-churchs-koran-burning/

Protests are already occurring in Kabul and an effigy of the pastor was burnt.

I really hope they don't do it, even though the church remains obstinate. This will have profound negative consequences. All due to unnecessary provocation.
 

ChronoBound

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Why is it the media is making a massive deal out of some backwoods minister burning the Koran, yet they never make the peep when some punks burn the American flag or the Bible?

Why do we hold foreign cultures higher than our own? Why is it a hate crime to spit on foreign cultures yet "art" to denigrate our own?

**** political correctness. The people who helped devise it were part of the greatest mass murderers in history.
 

Luigitoilet

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Why is it the media is making a massive deal out of some backwoods minister burning the Koran, yet they never make the peep when some punks burn the American flag or the Bible?

Why do we hold foreign cultures higher than our own? Why is it a hate crime to spit on foreign cultures yet "art" to denigrate our own?

**** political correctness. The people who helped devise it were part of the greatest mass murderers in history.
"our" culture isn't Christianity.
 

ChronoBound

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"our" culture isn't Christianity.
Then why our we allowed to burn Bibles and not Korans? **** political correctness and its double standard. When the same standards that are used for minorities are applied to whites and Christians, I will then voice disapproval for this action by this isolated guy.

Political correctness and modern Western double standards are one of my few pet peeves.
 

Luigitoilet

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Then why our we allowed to burn Bibles and not Korans? **** political correctness and its double standard. When the same standards that are used for minorities are applied to whites and Christians, I will then voice disapproval for this action by this isolated guy.

Political correctness and modern Western double standards are one of my few pet peeves.

You are allowed to burn anything, as far as I know. There may be some laws against burning American flags but beyond that it's all fair game as long as it's not a huge hazard or something.

also

When the same standards that are used for minorities are applied to whites and Christians...
What does this even mean?
 

ChronoBound

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You are allowed to burn anything, as far as I know. There may be some laws against burning American flags but beyond that it's all fair game as long as it's not a huge hazard or something.

also



What does this even mean?
The media could have chosen to ignore this, however, it lives and thrives searching for "white bigots" the same way theocracies search for heretics. Just let the man do whatever the hell he wants, how hard is it for them to not give him attention? He is just a random nobody, and instead he is being made out to be someone who actually has power in the country.
 

El Nino

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On the same note, let's recognise the hatred against Non Muslims in Islamic states is also xenophobic in nature.
It seems as though you're doing a balancing act, as though you have to mention the oppression of non-Muslims while talking about Muslim rights.

Then you need to get involved.
I'm working on it! Me, big, loudmouthed American, crossing national borders to liberate the oppressed. Not like that's ever failed before, right?

More seriously, when it comes to things that are outside of my culture, I have no problem lending support to oppressed minorities fighting for their rights. I can't exactly lead the revolt, however, being a foreigner.

But to the bigotry that exists in my own country, I can try to do something about that.

Maybe.

Why is it the media is making a massive deal out of some backwoods minister burning the Koran, yet they never make the peep when some punks burn the American flag or the Bible?
Hey, man, I keep calling those guys whenever I'm about to burn something, but they never show up.

Why do we hold foreign cultures higher than our own? Why is it a hate crime to spit on foreign cultures yet "art" to denigrate our own?
We hold foreign cultures higher than our own? ****, I never got the memo.

*stops burning Koran*

**** political correctness. The people who helped devise it were part of the greatest mass murderers in history.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/delusions+of+persecution
 

GreenKirby

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Then why our we allowed to burn Bibles and not Korans? **** political correctness and its double standard. When the same standards that are used for minorities are applied to whites and Christians, I will then voice disapproval for this action by this isolated guy.

Political correctness and modern Western double standards are one of my few pet peeves.
1) You're allowed to burn both. It's freedom of speech. But those who against it also have the freedom of speech to call them stupid.

2) Second, not only are white protected under hate crimes as well, it's been long proven if the attacker was a minority, he has a harsher sentence if it were a white attacker/minority victim.

3) Americans like to think of themselves as leaders of the world. Naturally, they should be held to a higher standard.

Of course, given your post, you're just another WASP with a persecution complex, so there will be no getting through to you.
 

ChronoBound

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How are they BS?

http://www.realcourage.org/2009/11/fbi-releases-2008-hate-crime-statistics/

^See, anti-white, anti-Christian, even anti-heterosexual attacks are protected under the hate crime laws as well.

And your link doesn't matter as there are always attacks on every race and they're not all gonna get covered.

As for the media giving so much attention to this guy, it's the same reason that the media played into the birther movement. The mainstream news are just there to entertain. Not to inform.
 

ChronoBound

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I know better than to debate people on video game forums. They are usually rigid in their beliefs.

I am done with this topic.

It is absurd how much sensitivity is given to Islam. Heck, even South Park ending up getting censored due to people being afraid of a "backlash".
 

Thino

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the medias are indeed at fault for making this much a bigger deal than it should be just by making this public

but you cant stop the medias these days , so damage is done.

now thing is , while I dont agree at all with the existence of double standards , I believe they do exist because of the context and the consequences some actions can have.

in this case its pretty clear :

-if you're a christian and you burn a bible , the probability that radical christians all over the world generalize into accusing you or your whole country to be infidels and attempt to harm you or anything related to you is low.
-if you're a christian and you burn a Quran , the probability that what I mentioned above happens are much highers.

double standards are wrong , wrong in the sense that they go against logic or even laws sometimes but I guess the only way they can disappear completely is when everyone starts thinking the same about everything

theres a long way to go until that happens , but until then Im all for fighting them
 

1048576

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I know better than to debate people on video game forums. They are usually rigid in their beliefs.

Allow me to introduce myself: I'm kettle

I am done with this topic.

It is absurd how much sensitivity is given to Islam. Heck, even South Park ending up getting censored due to people being afraid of a "backlash".
Yeah, all those bible burnin' American Muslims sure do get away with it

Oh wait.
 

Crimson King

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And it's officially off: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/florida.quran.burning/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

BIG LOL at the guy who really can't see that there was nothing illegal here, and the only reason it got media attention is because **** like this is what gets people killed. Look up Theo van Gogh, Salman Rushdie, and anyone else that Islamic Extremists have put to death or threatened for mere effigies of their prophet. While these people are a small minority, they possess the will and desire to propagate their hate. Burning the book they consider as the foundation for everything they base their lives on will not stop them, but it'll, as Obama put it, be a rally call for them to recruit. Think how bad the US will look when even candid videos of a Koran burning leak to middle eastern countries where al Qaeda recruits. They are able to talk people into blowing themselves and others around them up with us just being a presence in the area, but destroying their religious text WILL set them off.

If a Christian sect was large enough and staged a 9/11 and were essentially unreachable accept when they carried out acts of terror, the same outcry would happen if a bible burning ceremony went down.
 

Pluvia

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I was going to respond to this but then I read that black argument and now I've completely forgotten what I was going to say.
 

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I don't see why burning the Koran is a big deal. It's just a book. This guy has a right to burn Korans, just like those people in New York have a right to put a Mosque next to ground zero. Sure, lots of people will be offended by the burning of Korans, just like lots of people will be offended by the Mosque, but you don't have the right to not be offended. If something offends you, then don't pay attention to it. If you're a Muslim and you really believe in the ideas of the Koran, then how can someone take that away from you by burning it?
 

Glöwworm

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I don't see why burning the Koran is a big deal. It's just a book. This guy has a right to burn Korans, just like those people in New York have a right to put a Mosque next to ground zero. Sure, lots of people will be offended by the burning of Korans, just like lots of people will be offended by the Mosque, but you don't have the right to not be offended. If something offends you, then don't pay attention to it. If you're a Muslim and you really believe in the ideas of the Koran, then how can someone take that away from you by burning it?
spicccyyy!
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I don't see why burning the Koran is a big deal. It's just a book. This guy has a right to burn Korans, just like those people in New York have a right to put a Mosque next to ground zero. Sure, lots of people will be offended by the burning of Korans, just like lots of people will be offended by the Mosque, but you don't have the right to not be offended. If something offends you, then don't pay attention to it. If you're a Muslim and you really believe in the ideas of the Koran, then how can someone take that away from you by burning it?
It's not about the physical burning of the book, it's the motive behind the burning.

Imagine if I burned all of your family photos. Hey, it's just photo paper, right? That's not why you would be upset, is it? (Imagine they weren't all on your computer anyway lol)
 

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It's not about the physical burning of the book, it's the motive behind the burning.

Imagine if I burned all of your family photos. Hey, it's just photo paper, right? That's not why you would be upset, is it? (Imagine they weren't all on your computer anyway lol)
If you burned MY family photos, then that would be much different, because you'd be burning my property. If you burned photos of my family that for some reason belonged to you, then I wouldn't care at all. And even if I did care, that wouldn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

If this pastor had been planning on stealing Korans from other people and burning them, then I would be against it.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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If you burned MY family photos, then that would be much different, because you'd be burning my property. If you burned photos of my family that for some reason belonged to you, then I wouldn't care at all. And even if I did care, that wouldn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to do it.

If this pastor had been planning on stealing Korans from other people and burning them, then I would be against it.
Stop thinking about property. Imagine that doesn't matter.

@bold I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do it, I was trying to make you see why they would care, because you seem to be cool as a cucumber with the idea as a whole.
 

freeman123

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Stop thinking about property. Imagine that doesn't matter.

@bold I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do it, I was trying to make you see why they would care, because you seem to be cool as a cucumber with the idea as a whole.
I don't care why they would care. How many people are offended by the things that South Park does? How many people are offended by simulated violence in video games? How many people are offended by pornography? People are offended by all sorts of things. I'm offended by religions that say I deserve to burn in Hell for not believing like them. None of that matters, because no one has the right to not be offended. So the fact that people may care about some guy burning Korans, even if they had a good reason for caring(which they don't as far as I'm concerned), means absolutely nothing to me.
 

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You would probably care if it invoked another terrorist attack on the U.S or if it would make the al queda more and more violent with their attacks on U.S. troops or if some extremist christian views this the wrong way and attacks some muslim person walking down the street one day, well maybe not the last two since it doesn't directly effect you :B thank god he's not doing it anymore
 

1048576

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I don't see why burning the Koran is a big deal. It's just a book. This guy has a right to burn Korans, just like those people in New York have a right to put a Mosque next to ground zero. Sure, lots of people will be offended by the burning of Korans, just like lots of people will be offended by the Mosque, but you don't have the right to not be offended. If something offends you, then don't pay attention to it. If you're a Muslim and you really believe in the ideas of the Koran, then how can someone take that away from you by burning it?
You're right, he's allowed to be a giant dickwad, and he should be allowed to be a giant dickwad. Of course, I'm allowed to complain that people are dickwads.

There's also the safety concern. Sometimes I think these fundies really want to start a holy-war or incite 9/11 2.0, both of which would benefit their political positions at the cost of human lives.
 

Pluvia

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Freeman you can offend someone, then you can take it to the extreme.

What he's doing is unnecessary and is only going to cause violence and/or make things worse.
 

freeman123

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You would probably care if it invoked another terrorist attack on the U.S or if it would make the al queda more and more violent with their attacks on U.S. troops or if some extremist christian views this the wrong way and attacks some muslim person walking down the street one day, well maybe not the last two since it doesn't directly effect you :B thank god he's not doing it anymore
The fact that burning Korans may cause violence says a whole lot more about Islam than burning a Koran ever could.

Giving up freedom out of fear of violence is exactly how terrorism works. If we're going to allow terrorism to work, then our troops are completely wasting their time. There wouldn't be any attacks on our troops or our country by radical Muslims if we all converted to Islam. So, by your logic, I guess we should all start praising Allah.
 

theeboredone

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It's not a matter of having the right of burning the Quran, but more of a matter when it may result in soldiers overseas dying from enraged terrorists.

Freeman, coming from a Muslim like myself, I agree with your stance in that he has the right to do it, and any rational person would just ignore it. However, Al Qaeda or those extremists can easily use this as incentive to recruit more terrorists (who are usually uneducated and have nothing to live for to begin with). This guy would basically be putting blood on his hands for what he's trying to pull. I'm glad he's back down, but there's still a certain amount of damage that's already been done.
 

freeman123

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It's not a matter of having the right of burning the Quran, but more of a matter when it may result in soldiers overseas dying from enraged terrorists.

Freeman, coming from a Muslim like myself, I agree with your stance in that he has the right to do it, and any rational person would just ignore it. However, Al Qaeda or those extremists can easily use this as incentive to recruit more terrorists (who are usually uneducated and have nothing to live for to begin with). This guy would basically be putting blood on his hands for what he's trying to pull. I'm glad he's back down, but there's still a certain amount of damage that's already been done.
Yeah, but when you don't do something because it may cause terrorism, then you're allowing terrorism to work. Imagine if Al Qaeda said that they were going to start killing innocent people if we all didn't tuck are shirts in. Does that mean that we should all start tucking our shirts in? And if we didn't tuck our shirts in, and it resulted in violence, would you say that the blood was on our hands? Or would you say that it was on the hands of the people who reacted violently to something so stupid?
 

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You're forgetting that these people have religion to back them up freeman. They wont listen to reason no matter how hard you try.

If by doing something provocative, AKA burning their book, is going to cause violence then the smartest thing to do is nothing.

You can say all these perfectly logical things that I agree with but it's pointless to tell us that and it's even more pointless to tell them.
 

freeman123

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You're forgetting that these people have religion to back them up freeman. They wont listen to reason no matter how hard you try.

If by doing something provocative, AKA burning their book, is going to cause violence then the smartest thing to do is nothing.

You can say all these perfectly logical things that I agree with but it's pointless to tell us that and it's even more pointless to tell them.
The guy who wanted to burn the books is religious too. So I could just as easily say that it's pointless for you to tell him that he shouldn't do it.
 

Pluvia

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It was. Remember they even said to him "What would Jesus do?" and he just said Jesus would burn it too.

He said the only way he would stop is if God gave him a sign. He completed ignored everyone due to religion.
 

theeboredone

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Yeah, but when you don't do something because it may cause terrorism, then you're allowing terrorism to work. Imagine if Al Qaeda said that they were going to start killing innocent people if we all didn't tuck are shirts in. Does that mean that we should all start tucking our shirts in? And if we didn't tuck our shirts in, and it resulted in violence, would you say that the blood was on our hands? Or would you say that it was on the hands of the people who reacted violently to something so stupid?
But there are other ways to go about it. You say by not doing this act, you're allowing terrorism to work. However, if you do go with this act, you are inciting more terrorism. I just think there are better ways for people to go about protesting their views on Islam. This is not one of them.
 

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This is probably the best way to protest Islam. So many people are concerned that extreme Islamists are going to respond to this by killing or doing harmful things, which is true. Hopefully they go on with the burning, so we can further expose the faults within the Islamic religion and hopefully limit it in the United States (thats never going to happen, but whatever)

And yes, Islam obviously has many faults. Islamic extremists killing people like Theo Van Gogh is a sign that Islam is a very corrupt religion. This was also not the first time that Islamists attacked/harmed/killed/and/or done malicious acts against society.

I haven't seen near as much as Islamic extremists as the other religions in the world in a long timeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
 

GoldShadow

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I think a lot of you are seriously misinformed about both Islam and the causes of and solutions to terrorism. There are a few very (conceptually) simple ways to solve terrorism, but none of them involve antagonizing terrorists.

edit: I'll even give you a hint. Fixing terrorism has more to do with things like GDP per capita and internet access than it does with religion or ideology.
 

theeboredone

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This is probably the best way to protest Islam. So many people are concerned that extreme Islamists are going to respond to this by killing or doing harmful things, which is true. Hopefully they go on with the burning, so we can further expose the faults within the Islamic religion and hopefully limit it in the United States (thats never going to happen, but whatever)

And yes, Islam obviously has many faults. Islamic extremists killing people like Theo Van Gogh is a sign that Islam is a very corrupt religion. This was also not the first time that Islamists attacked/harmed/killed/and/or done malicious acts against society.

I haven't seen near as much as Islamic extremists as the other religions in the world in a long timeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Oh, while we're at it, why not go back in history and look at how Christians stated Manifest Destiny was God's will? Or how about the treatment of African Americans as slaves since they were lesser than the white man? Ever heard of the KKK?

You don't see such extremism and terror from educated Muslims (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, US Muslims), but it resides more in the poor countries. Go to any of these countries and you'll see several homeless or poor Muslims begging on the streets for money or a job. Enter Al Qaeda that offer them such things along with the basis of their own radical view on the religion, and a terrorist is easily born. It's simple brainwashing, and they are using religion as a means to continue their gains.
 

El Nino

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Yeah, but when you don't do something because it may cause terrorism, then you're allowing terrorism to work. Imagine if Al Qaeda said that they were going to start killing innocent people if we all didn't tuck are shirts in. Does that mean that we should all start tucking our shirts in? And if we didn't tuck our shirts in, and it resulted in violence, would you say that the blood was on our hands? Or would you say that it was on the hands of the people who reacted violently to something so stupid?
You can also wear rival colors in gang territory. It's your right. But why would you?

In addition to that, if you're gonna throw 'em up at some gang members, I would like to be as far away from you as possible. However, if we're talking terrorism, and if you're in the same country as me, I don't think certain factions that get angry at you are going to hunt you down specifically. I think they might just kill any American. Which might be me. And I really don't want to take an IED for your "statement," or whatever.

So many people are concerned that extreme Islamists are going to respond to this by killing or doing harmful things, which is true. Hopefully they go on with the burning, so we can further expose the faults within the Islamic religion and hopefully limit it in the United States (thats never going to happen, but whatever)
Considering the recent bombings in Pakistan, it's a little too easy for Americans to be "courageous" and "make a statement" while other people in other places bite it real hard. Of course, I guess Americans can continue to be courageous when our allies leave us because being friends with us is dangerous and causing deaths among their own people.

And I hope no one needs a reminder that the U.S. has troops stationed in regions where extremists operate, and any inflammatory actions by American citizens (safe and sound, half a world away) could put them in even more danger than they already are.

I haven't seen near as much as Islamic extremists as the other religions in the world in a long timeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
How long have you been around, exactly?

Me personally, I liked it when they tried to pass that law in Uganda making homosexuality punishable by death.

Oh wait, no, that was another political-religious lobby.
 
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