Ballistics, Ahmadinejad agrees with you
Ahmadinejad UN speech sparks walk-outs
Ahmadinejad UN speech sparks walk-outs
America does love Israel though.
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Church plans Quran-burning event on 9/11
- Thread starter Kofu
- Start date
Ballistics
Smash Champion
Well I'm not sure who actually did it, I'm just saying there is overwhelming evidence for controlled demolition
Alot of international leaders have spoken out against the US
Alot of international leaders have spoken out against the US
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
I can't believe some people still believe all that absolute rubbish.
I guess random internet users are more qualified in engineering than people who graduate with engineering degrees.
I guess random internet users are more qualified in engineering than people who graduate with engineering degrees.
Thatfatcat
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2009
- Messages
- 131
As much as they have a right to burn the Qu'ran, it's rediculous, unproductive, and dangerous.
Religious extremists tend to exclude everyone, causing hate between different religious and minority groups. Now, they may believe in it, but there's a huge factor involved.
It is extremley dangerous.
Religious extremists in the Islam community is freaking out over this, threatning more terrorist attacks and a sour relationshp between America and the Middle east.
What I don't understand is how the church still wants to do this, yet they are causing a huge threat to national security.
Religious extremists tend to exclude everyone, causing hate between different religious and minority groups. Now, they may believe in it, but there's a huge factor involved.
It is extremley dangerous.
Religious extremists in the Islam community is freaking out over this, threatning more terrorist attacks and a sour relationshp between America and the Middle east.
What I don't understand is how the church still wants to do this, yet they are causing a huge threat to national security.
Islam could cease to exist tomorrow, but terrorism would live on.
There are two ways to stop terrorism:
1. Invent a time machine and stop the Crusades, and all the other numerous cases of Western cultures pillaging the Mid-East for quite literally no good reason.
2. Not let our cultures devolve into the kind of ignorant bigotry that allowed things like those in point #1 to occur in the first place, and take steps to reverse that trend and try to make amends. Sprinkle with the magical ingredient (time; about a hundred years' worth, probably), and presto. Well, not presto. But there you have it.
Sadly this kind of ideology requires Western culture to accept that 9/11 wasn't some completely out of nowhere attack with absolutely no precedent at any point in history. As long as it's easier to just call muslims a bunch of barbaric ragheads and convince each other that Islam directs these actions, nothing's going to change.
And it has to change on our side first, because we're supposed to be the free, democratic lands where hateful ignoramuses can't take power and shun others into silence. Supposed to be...
(oooo controversial)
There are two ways to stop terrorism:
1. Invent a time machine and stop the Crusades, and all the other numerous cases of Western cultures pillaging the Mid-East for quite literally no good reason.
2. Not let our cultures devolve into the kind of ignorant bigotry that allowed things like those in point #1 to occur in the first place, and take steps to reverse that trend and try to make amends. Sprinkle with the magical ingredient (time; about a hundred years' worth, probably), and presto. Well, not presto. But there you have it.
Sadly this kind of ideology requires Western culture to accept that 9/11 wasn't some completely out of nowhere attack with absolutely no precedent at any point in history. As long as it's easier to just call muslims a bunch of barbaric ragheads and convince each other that Islam directs these actions, nothing's going to change.
And it has to change on our side first, because we're supposed to be the free, democratic lands where hateful ignoramuses can't take power and shun others into silence. Supposed to be...
(oooo controversial)
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
It's pretty well known around the world that the US is nowhere near as free as it likes to think it is. Just compare it to the UK for example, Islamophobia and Homophobia is greatly frowned upon over here.
Namaste
Smash Apprentice
But you guys have multiple cameras everywhere watching your moves, as well as a strong anti-immigrant party
Doomblaze
Smash Journeyman
Nothing is wrong with buring a quran, its a common practice in many religions to burn a holy text so it does not get recycled and used in something less appetizing, like a cigarette. My muslim friend's family told me this when we brought it up in discussion, and it is the same way with sikhism, my religion, so im assuming its legit.
The problem with this is that he was trying to get the attention of the media, and it worked. If the media had ignored him, nothing would have happened.
The potential threat to national security is also a problem though, obviously, i have no idea what sets muslim extremists off.
The problem with this is that he was trying to get the attention of the media, and it worked. If the media had ignored him, nothing would have happened.
The potential threat to national security is also a problem though, obviously, i have no idea what sets muslim extremists off.
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
I'm assuming you mean the BNP, a party that every other party publicly condemns and who are ridiculed constantly by the media.
Also I wouldn't say strong seeing as though they have one council seat in one region. Every other member of council left the stage when their member went up, and their party leader had his television interview interrupted by Anti-Nazi groups who forced him to flee by throwing eggs at him.
But yeah we do have a lot of CCTV. They wont bother you unless you do something wrong though.
Namaste
Smash Apprentice
Maybe, but it would seem to violate the rights of privacy. I wouldn't trust any employee who monitors those to not abuse the privilege.
Plus I would find your hate speech laws rather draconian, as even a preacher who said homosexuality was a sin got arrested, and that it bans expression of hatred towards others. If I wanted to say "To hell with every white person i've ever met, I hate all of you because you're white", I just don't think the government should be allowed to arrest me for it.
Not denying that the United States is not as free as most believe, I'd more consider it the crazy culture of extreme nationalism that leads to the public censoring things. I'd even say "The UK is more free then the US", but I'm not positive on that since the closest I've came to studying UK laws was watching "Hot Fuzz".
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
Well it doesn't violate privacy seeing as though all CCTV is in public places. Tonight I walked past 4 CCTV cameras but seeing as though I wasn't planning on causing an crimes they didn't bother me. If I was planning on stabbing someone then yeah I'd be a little pissed by the cameras though.
And the hate speech laws aren't as strict as you think (for example the BNP don't get charged). You can hate what you want but if you try going West Baptist Church about it then you'll be arrested.
Like if you've noticed the US proclaims its laws as being great, Freedom of Religion for example, but will protest against it, like in the "G0" Mosque case. There's none of these problems over here seeing as though our laws basically boil down to "Don't be arseholes to other people". Which is ironic as we're largely a post-religious country but can follow "Love Thy Neighbour" better than your highly Christian country.
And the hate speech laws aren't as strict as you think (for example the BNP don't get charged). You can hate what you want but if you try going West Baptist Church about it then you'll be arrested.
Like if you've noticed the US proclaims its laws as being great, Freedom of Religion for example, but will protest against it, like in the "G0" Mosque case. There's none of these problems over here seeing as though our laws basically boil down to "Don't be arseholes to other people". Which is ironic as we're largely a post-religious country but can follow "Love Thy Neighbour" better than your highly Christian country.
Namaste
Smash Apprentice
You do realize that most of American foreign policy is supported by your government, correct?
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
I'm not sure what you mean, elaborate a bit.
Namaste
Smash Apprentice
What I was pointing out is that your country is not exactly very loving to the rest of the world.
Sorry, I get annoyed with America bashing. Especially from the UK. Not that there's a problem with criticizing America, but it gets to the point where it's just blind hatred of an entire country. Mainly, again, from France/Great Britain and others who had screwed over the world long before America had a chance to add her own part to it
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
Yeah we're each others closest allies and we're not perfect etc.
Mostly America bashing is because of your Republicans. The rest of the developed world is pretty Left and your Right wing is pretty extreme. For example our Right wing (and a Left wing party) is in power right now but if you compare our Right to your Right you'll notice how extreme yours is. Pretty much if you hear America bashing you can track it down to your Republicans.
Except for like fat or stupid jokes.
Mostly America bashing is because of your Republicans. The rest of the developed world is pretty Left and your Right wing is pretty extreme. For example our Right wing (and a Left wing party) is in power right now but if you compare our Right to your Right you'll notice how extreme yours is. Pretty much if you hear America bashing you can track it down to your Republicans.
Except for like fat or stupid jokes.
Namaste
Smash Apprentice
Aye. Unlike England, where everyone is a posh tea drinker with a top hat, mustache, large belly and named Nigel or Elizabeth, with the occasional Winston or Charles thrown in.
Pluvia
Hates Semicolons<br>;
I'm British, but luckily I'm not from England.
Namaste
Smash Apprentice
There's a difference? 
It's a joke
Most accurate description of England I've ever heard. Don't forget that they wear monocles!
BBQTV
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,000
I'm not here to resurrect this debate, I've addressed everything I wanted to. I just want to highlight the perspective I kept suggesting was essential, a perspective that some argued was the product of an underlying motive.
While we sit here and argue about the rights and wrongs of building a mosque at Ground Zero the indigenous Christian communities of Iraq are being killed daily. This is not a new phenomenon, the Assyrian community has been persecuted throughout history and has been the victim of attempts of genocide and ethnic cleansing without any historical and current global concern of their plight.
Instead of advocating for their protection and highlighting their plight, our media outlets would rather use fear mongering and hyperbole to turn the thoughts of a manipulative preacher with a clear agenda into a global issue with severe repercussions.
Do you now understand what I meant by having some perspective on this issue?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11463544
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39939359/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
While we sit here and argue about the rights and wrongs of building a mosque at Ground Zero the indigenous Christian communities of Iraq are being killed daily. This is not a new phenomenon, the Assyrian community has been persecuted throughout history and has been the victim of attempts of genocide and ethnic cleansing without any historical and current global concern of their plight.
Instead of advocating for their protection and highlighting their plight, our media outlets would rather use fear mongering and hyperbole to turn the thoughts of a manipulative preacher with a clear agenda into a global issue with severe repercussions.
Do you now understand what I meant by having some perspective on this issue?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11463544
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39939359/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
I once read a comment on a website dedicated to the remembrance of the people who died in Nagasaki as a result of the atomic bomb. It was written by somebody from Malaysia, who told the story of his/her grandfather being killed by Japanese soldiers during WWII. This person stated that it had always been hard to feel sympathy for the Japanese casualties due to the knowledge of what the Japanese soldiers did when they went rampaging throughout Asia. The post ended by saying that it had taken this person a while to finally acknowledge the casualties on both sides, to say that "their innocents didn't deserve to die, but neither did ours." It's the kind of statement that comes from someone who feels that someone else is getting more sympathy from an audience while their own pain is being ignored, but it is someone who was finally able to overcome it and gain some degree of empathy for the other side.
I am an American. My reaction to 9/11 was intially the same as this anonymous poster's. At first, I could hardly bring up any sympathy for those who died at 9/11 because I knew the things my own government was guilty of. After all, no one built a memorial or held a moment of silence for the people killed by our air raids in Iraq during the Clinton administration, or the ones killed by our economic sanctions. And every time someone brought up 9/11, I wanted to remind them of these facts.
In this way, N9NE, your need to speak up on the Assyrian plight in direct conjunction to the "mosque" at Ground Zero seems similar to my need to speak up about the Iraqi economic sanctions in direct conjunction to 9/11.
But after a time, I came to abandon my initial position. Those who died at 9/11 share common ground with those who died as a result of the sanctions; they share more common ground with each other than with their own leaders, who are always crying out for war and retribution. The line between perpetrator and victim cuts right through nations and ethnicities and religious affiliation. All communities, as a whole, are victims and victimizers. Japan may have been the aggressor in the last century, and China the victim, but tomorrow those relationships may change. And if it does, would I still dare to bring up Japan's history of war atrocities? Or do I choose to stand, again, with the oppressed?
I am an American. And as I struggle for equal rights as a member of a minority, what would I do if someone were to enter into a discussion about my struggle and bring up instances (whether past or current) in which other members of my group were violent or oppressive towards others? There'd be nothing I could do. I don't control the actions of other people, but if you bring up their crimes before me as I fight for my rights, I will be forced to realize that no matter how I conduct myself, you will still group me in with them anyway. Otherwise, you wouldn't have brought it up to me in a discussion about my own struggle. It seems that no matter what I do as an individual, I am still being judged as part of a group, and that group is one solid unit, and the crimes of others like me will be put before me, and even if I am not condemned for their crimes, I am still expected to say something, to give something, in answer to their crimes in a way that I would not be expected to do for someone with whom I do not share a common label. After a while, the more you keep pressing me, the more you will push me toward them, those criminals, because I now realize that there never was a chance of me distinguishing myself from them; you would, in the end, see us all as the same anyway. Push me hard enough, and then I will be forced to draw a line in the sand, and I will have to side with them because I can't expect any sympathy from you, and I also can't handle your accusations. The burden of guilt which is placed on me will be received as a threat, and that will make me look elsewhere for acceptance and security. Communities under threat bind together, but under extreme circumstances, this becomes nationalism.
That is the basis for race wars, ethnic conflicts, and religious wars. Maybe, in the end, we are all just gears in a larger machine we can't control. Maybe all our discussions are useless after all.
tl;dr - Your last post could have been its own thread, you know.
I am an American. My reaction to 9/11 was intially the same as this anonymous poster's. At first, I could hardly bring up any sympathy for those who died at 9/11 because I knew the things my own government was guilty of. After all, no one built a memorial or held a moment of silence for the people killed by our air raids in Iraq during the Clinton administration, or the ones killed by our economic sanctions. And every time someone brought up 9/11, I wanted to remind them of these facts.
In this way, N9NE, your need to speak up on the Assyrian plight in direct conjunction to the "mosque" at Ground Zero seems similar to my need to speak up about the Iraqi economic sanctions in direct conjunction to 9/11.
But after a time, I came to abandon my initial position. Those who died at 9/11 share common ground with those who died as a result of the sanctions; they share more common ground with each other than with their own leaders, who are always crying out for war and retribution. The line between perpetrator and victim cuts right through nations and ethnicities and religious affiliation. All communities, as a whole, are victims and victimizers. Japan may have been the aggressor in the last century, and China the victim, but tomorrow those relationships may change. And if it does, would I still dare to bring up Japan's history of war atrocities? Or do I choose to stand, again, with the oppressed?
I am an American. And as I struggle for equal rights as a member of a minority, what would I do if someone were to enter into a discussion about my struggle and bring up instances (whether past or current) in which other members of my group were violent or oppressive towards others? There'd be nothing I could do. I don't control the actions of other people, but if you bring up their crimes before me as I fight for my rights, I will be forced to realize that no matter how I conduct myself, you will still group me in with them anyway. Otherwise, you wouldn't have brought it up to me in a discussion about my own struggle. It seems that no matter what I do as an individual, I am still being judged as part of a group, and that group is one solid unit, and the crimes of others like me will be put before me, and even if I am not condemned for their crimes, I am still expected to say something, to give something, in answer to their crimes in a way that I would not be expected to do for someone with whom I do not share a common label. After a while, the more you keep pressing me, the more you will push me toward them, those criminals, because I now realize that there never was a chance of me distinguishing myself from them; you would, in the end, see us all as the same anyway. Push me hard enough, and then I will be forced to draw a line in the sand, and I will have to side with them because I can't expect any sympathy from you, and I also can't handle your accusations. The burden of guilt which is placed on me will be received as a threat, and that will make me look elsewhere for acceptance and security. Communities under threat bind together, but under extreme circumstances, this becomes nationalism.
That is the basis for race wars, ethnic conflicts, and religious wars. Maybe, in the end, we are all just gears in a larger machine we can't control. Maybe all our discussions are useless after all.
tl;dr - Your last post could have been its own thread, you know.
Suntan Luigi
Smash Lord
By any chance have you heard of Jeff Gates or his book, Guilt by Association? Please check the recent thread I made in the pool room/click on my signature, if you want answers for questions like these.