Character skill vs Player Skill: A Graphical Relationship

[Sky`]

I just wanted to share this quick story with everybody.

I came back from a 50 man tournament, run in some mall. The seeded players consisted of DEHF, Fiction, Sky, and MikeHAZE.

The placings were as follows.
1st: Fiction
2nd: DEHF
3rd: MikeHAZE
4th: Sky`

I lost to Fiction in Winners, and the only thing he told me was,
"Sky`, I dunno. It isn't you, it's your character. This is the limit of Peach, I believe."

I just think that people are failing to see the reality of the issue of any competitive fighter. There are just some characters that are not that good. And I really think that people need to just accept it! This isn't just for Peach, but I'm calling out the whole cast. A large population can't subsist alone in tournament, and win some sort of regional.

This chart, shows that at 'perfection', A peach can out perform a Snake. But what is perfection? Because as we know, there comes a disconnect from the personal aspects of your character, and the character him/her self. So there really is no definition of 'perfect play'. Why is this? Because there is no set way to play any character at all, so there is nothing to compare your character to. So saying that Peach playing Perfectly in any regard is just foolish, or any character for that matter.

It's admirable for people to attempt to step up and attempt to win a tournament, and all that jazz. By all means, go ahead if you think you can do it. It's just, the reality is, you're not going to make it to the very top if you use characters that can't do it! (D and below.)

I'm bringing all of this up, because I think this Chart gives a false perception of reality. Because there is no, "Perfect play," To say that a D tier character out performs an S tier character is just foolish, and a pretty bold statement.

So, this is to ShadowLink. You said,

"I am not saying Peachc annot win a tournament. That is a fallacty.
The issue is that her capability in winning a tournament in comparison to high tier characters, is much lower. That is a fact."

It's not much lower, it's impossible. There is no chance for her to get that high. Many people think that there is this glint of hope of her doing it alone, but I'm sorry to say, but it's not going to happen. Luckily ,I've got Facts and statistics to back up my claim, but if you think about it, digging them up is just busy work when the answer is obvious. (Note, again, I'm always comparing tournament viability to when it counts, a Regional.)

 

[ExCeL 52]

Based on what evidence, I ask?

Theres always a chance.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I lost to Fiction in Winners, and the only thing he told me was,
"Sky`, I dunno. It isn't you, it's your character. This is the limit of Peach, I believe."

thats sad to hear.

 

[BentoBox]

You lost a neutral matchup and got 4th place as a result and the only "logical" explanation would be that Peach is limited and should never make it that far?

Fiction may just be a better player than you are...

Enough with the anecdotal evidence D:

 

[Remzi]

You lost a neutral matchup and got 4th place as a result and the only "logical" explanation would be that Peach is limited and should never make it that far?

Fiction may just be a better player than you are...

Enough with the anecdotal evidence D:

This, seriously. I understand using characters below B rank is frustrating and difficult, but it doesn't mean you can't win with them unless you pick up a secondary.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This, seriously. I understand using characters below B rank is frustrating and difficult, but it doesn't mean you can't win with them unless you pick up a secondary.

Using a character below B-rank doesn't mean you can't win, no. But it does indeed mean you're less likely to win, unless the tier list is as inaccurate as the current one is. For a character being viable means likely to make the player win money at a tournament. The less likely it is for a player to win money at a tournament the less viable the character he uses is.
Chances to win money at a tournament - even at a small one - are extremely unrealistic if you use Captain Falcon. Therefore he's not considered a viable character, especially since he never wins large tourneys.
Winning money with Snake is for the same player a lot more likely, regardless of the size of the tournament. If you're not way behind your competition you always have realistic chances to win money if you play Snake (and don't suck with him). Snake is generally considered a viable character for that reason.

Winning money with Peach is certainly possible in a smaller tournament but in a larger tournament it's not. Even a player like Azen has to use more viable characters like Marth or King Dedede to win the crucial sets (against Boss and Ally) at Cataclysm 4...the logical conclusion is that Peach is slightly viable in regional tournaments but unviable without backup, when it comes to big tournaments. Therefore Peach is probably on the lower end of "borderline" viable.

Another example of a character that is "borderline" viable would be Pikachu. Anther always wins tournaments in the MW area because he's - as a player - good amounts ahead of the majority of the cmpetition (with a few exceptions like lain). So it barely matters whether he uses Pikachu or Meta Knight, since the other players in his area can't beat him anyways. If he travels to Canada he faces a tougher competition against the likes of Ally or Holy...as a result he doesn't win with Pikachu anymore but he's still able to win money with Pikachu. So it's possible to win money at small to middle-large tournaments with Pikachu. In a large tournament like Cot4 however Anther placed 13th, while only top5 won money. Again, Pikachu might be viable for smaller tourneys but at national ones he's not...so overall he's only borderline viable as well.

...

That doesn't mean it'll stay like this forever. Especially in Pikachus case it's difficult to say, since he's still rather underplayed. Peach on the other hand always had her fair share of players in different areas but still never won when it mattered. So while Pikachu still has potential to win some viability Peach probably doesn't.

Btw: When I'm saying "small" or "big" tourney I'm not referring to the size but rather to the talent of the players. Winning a 100 ppl tounrey full of scrubs with Peach means less than winning one with 16 players, who play in M2Ks league.

 

[da K.I.D.]

even though you have to assume that if you have a 100man tourney, the probability of them all being scrubs is reeeeeeally low.

 

[Sky`]

Using a character below B-rank doesn't mean you can't win, no. But it does indeed mean you're less likely to win, unless the tier list is as inaccurate as the current one is. For a character being viable means likely to make the player win money at a tournament. The less likely it is for a player to win money at a tournament the less viable the character he uses is.
Chances to win money at a tournament - even at a small one - are extremely unrealistic if you use Captain Falcon. Therefore he's not considered a viable character, especially since he never wins large tourneys.

Viability does not mean winning money, it means being able to beat the top players with their top characters. Placings don't really matter, it's who you beat, and who you lost to that really counts. C.Falcon is not a viable character to use in a tournament, no, simply because he has to many initial disadvantages to make him any good. Regardless of how good the player is, C-Falcon will never win a regional. Can everybody at least agree on that?

Winning money with Snake is for the same player a lot more likely, regardless of the size of the tournament. If you're not way behind your competition you always have realistic chances to win money if you play Snake (and don't suck with him). Snake is generally considered a viable character for that reason.

Snake is a viable character for... a lot of reasons. Lack of horrible matchups, great stages to CP, as well as how much he beats down those below him in tiers... that's just a few reasons why he's viable. And being behind doesn't really mean that you're going to lose, even if you lose the first round. How behind you are does not dictate how well you're going to do.

Winning money with Peach is certainly possible in a smaller tournament but in a larger tournament it's not. Even a player like Azen has to use more viable characters like Marth or King Dedede to win the crucial sets (against Boss and Ally) at Cataclysm 4...the logical conclusion is that Peach is slightly viable in regional tournaments but unviable without backup, when it comes to big tournaments. Therefore Peach is probably on the lower end of "borderline" viable.

No, she's not Viable in a regional at all. Didn't you say that Viable was the ability to 'win money'? If that's the case, then she isn't viable at all, she can't really be half and half. She is not a viable tournament character. It's either she is or she isn't, no inbetween. Her, with the Aid of higher tiers, is a perfectly viable team, because though she can't do it alone, she does have the skills to bring her and say... DDD to the top. You just have to cover her horrible matchups on those horrible stages.

Another example of a character that is "borderline" viable would be Pikachu. Anther always wins tournaments in the MW area because he's - as a player - good amounts ahead of the majority of the cmpetition (with a few exceptions like lain). So it barely matters whether he uses Pikachu or Meta Knight, since the other players in his area can't beat him anyways. If he travels to Canada he faces a tougher competition against the likes of Ally or Holy...as a result he doesn't win with Pikachu anymore but he's still able to win money with Pikachu. So it's possible to win money at small to middle-large tournaments with Pikachu. In a large tournament like Cot4 however Anther placed 13th, while only top5 won money. Again, Pikachu might be viable for smaller tourneys but at national ones he's not...so overall he's only borderline viable as well.

Pikachu is underrated, but in any regard, it's bad to use that definition of "winning Money" as a premace for Viable. Lets say I went to CoT, and first round I got M2K. If I beat him, and then went to losers, and beat Azen, then I lost the tournament after that, like 2-2, I would get a low placing, and I wouldn't make any money, but don't you think that I'd be considered pretty good with those wins?

...

That doesn't mean it'll stay like this forever. Especially in Pikachus case it's difficult to say, since he's still rather underplayed. Peach on the other hand always had her fair share of players in different areas but still never won when it mattered. So while Pikachu still has potential to win some viability Peach probably doesn't.

Btw: When I'm saying "small" or "big" tourney I'm not referring to the size but rather to the talent of the players. Winning a 100 ppl tounrey full of scrubs with Peach means less than winning one with 16 players, who play in M2Ks league.

I think what it comes down to, honestly, is Tiers. Peaches viability has been giving me a lot of trouble. Is she, isn't she, etc. The fact remains clear, at this point, she isn't. But I guess, and I'm admitting a bit of wrong if I'm contradicting myself in the past, but some point in the future, if something is further developed, I don't think it's impossible for her to make it to top of C tier. And if that happens, she becomes a viable character to some degree. But remember. Just because one person places high with her, does not make her a good character in any regard, It just means that player is good.

 

[mikeHAZE]

lol get ***** SalaboB.

wow I didn't write this, yet I got warned :[

 

[Eddie G]

wow I didn't write this, yet I got warned :[

Here's an off topic question Mike, why does Drephen dislike you so much?

 

[Winnar]

Edrees - Excellent graph, at least the theory behind it. Like you said, it needs some fine tuning, but it definitely is worth looking into.

Everyone else - tl;dr

 

[ExCeL 52]

Lets get off the subject of winning a tournament.
Could Peach place 2nd or 3rd?

 

[BentoBox]

Go out there and find out.

 

[Yuna]

Lets get off the subject of winning a tournament.
Could Peach place 2nd or 3rd?

Anything is possible. This just isn't probable.

 

[Sky`]

Anything is possible. This just isn't probable.

Yuna.

It may not have been a regional, but Fiction and I placed First in teams, with people like DSF/Tyrant teaming, as well as DEHF/Champ, TKD/MogX. We went Wario Peach.

IMO, she's S tier in teams, because her weaknesses can't be exploited as much.

 

[Eddie G]

Anything is possible. This just isn't probable.

Very true, Yuna. Even so, the amount of times that I've read the word "impossible" in peoples' posts on here regarding Peach is what makes me slightly giggle.

 

[Yuna]

It may not have been a regional, but Fiction and I placed First in teams, with people like DSF/Tyrant teaming, as well as DEHF/Champ, TKD/MogX. We went Wario Peach.

One time =/= Pattern

IMO, she's S tier in teams, because her weaknesses can't be exploited as much.

Yes, in Teams, the Tier List shifts around quite a bit. And? That's true for pretty much all characters. And when discussing character viability, unless specified otherwise, we assume we're talking about Singles. And we have been talking about Singles all along.

Please don't bring in new facts that will only serve to confuse the less enlightened and intelligent. I mean, some people who shall remain nameless *cough* Hi... *cough* ...ve *cough* manage to misread every single thing people say ("Peach is unviable" -> "Peach will NEVER win a tournament", "You do not know enough about Competitive Smash and Competitive gaming" -> "You know NOTHING about Smash!").

What you just said will somehow be misread into "Peach took first over DSF, Tyrant, etc., etc. In Sky`'s opinion, Peach is S Tier." by some people.

Very true, Yuna. Even so, the amount of times that I've read the word "impossible" in peoples' posts on here regarding Peach is what makes me slightly giggle.

I'd like a count of how many times the word "impossible" has been used when discussing Peach's viability. And also the names and who used that word. Who cares what ignorami say?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sky, why are you basing your characters limiting characteristics on a match-up that is in your favor provided you know how to do the infinite, this is assuming Fiction was playing Wario.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Hey man, this has the potential to be a better, more elaborate form of a tier list! You could map out each character respective to each tier (or to each other character). This way, the tier list would take learning curves into account. Lucario, for example, has a fairly high learning curve, which might mean he's lower tier than he could be. On a less personal note, Ganondorf would or also be the same way.

You should get together with the rest of the BRoom and do this.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Sky, why are you basing your characters limiting characteristics on a match-up that is in your favor provided you know how to do the infinite, this is assuming Fiction was playing Wario.

a good Wario isn't easy to grab, its why his ability to be infinited doesn't keep him down.

 

[Hive]

Please don't bring in new facts that will only serve to confuse the less enlightened and intelligent. I mean, some people who shall remain nameless *cough* Hi... *cough* ...ve *cough* manage to misread every single thing people say ("Peach is unviable" -> "Peach will NEVER win a tournament", "You do not know enough about Competitive Smash and Competitive gaming" -> "You know NOTHING about Smash!").
?

:/ still talking **** i see. what your one million stupid posts and pms to me weren't enough? **** off yuna, qft.

 

[Yuna]

:/ still talking **** i see. what your one million stupid posts and pms to me weren't enough? **** off yuna, qft.

She who PM:ed me first and who kept coming back with accusations she couldn't substantiate with proof should stay out of the china shop where Yuna resides and spend time trying to polish her own potness whiter.

I can substantiate all of my accusations with quotes. You cannot. Also, I don't actually break forum rules.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Who cares what ignorami say?

you heard it here first folks.

Nobody cares what yuna has to say.

also, i would like to see this graph applied to all the characters. It would be a very cool project.

 

[ExCeL 52]

you heard it here first folks.

Nobody cares what yuna has to say.

also, i would like to see this graph applied to all the characters. It would be a very cool project.

Quoted For Truth.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

a good Wario isn't easy to grab, its why his ability to be infinited doesn't keep him down.

That would make sense, but the match-up is neutral, since I'm to assume grabbing Wario isn't as easy as I thought.

Why would that be a good base off it.

To me you need to look at the whole cast. If only high tiers were used, Lucario would be one of the best characters in the game.

One match isn't a good representation.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

no, its not. it was just an example i suppose, even though not the best of them.

 

[BentoBox]

That would make sense, but the match-up is neutral, since I'm to assume grabbing Wario isn't as easy as I thought.

Why would that be a good base off it.

To me you need to look at the whole cast. If only high tiers were used, Lucario would be one of the best characters in the game.

One match isn't a good representation.

Lucario has worst matchups amongst the low tiers than the highs?

 

[ExCeL 52]

What if Edreese replaced the graph with-SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!
It would make me extra happy.
And I would have shampoo bottles sitting in my lappy.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario has worst matchups amongst the low tiers than the highs?

...**** I worded that badly.

Restating: If only up to High tier was useable, Top tier was banned, then Lucario would be that much better since all of his disadvantaged match-ups, except the questionable Olimar, would be gone.

But the example is bad when you use a limited portion of the cast.

Using a Neutral match against Peach as Lucario isn't going to show me if Peach or Lucario are limited characters.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Grabbing a good Wario is going to be the hardest thing you could do in Brawl ATM. Thats why he gets punished so much for being grabbed.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

you heard it here first folks.

Nobody cares what yuna has to say.

also, i would like to see this graph applied to all the characters. It would be a very cool project.

looking at the teir list discussion, i can't imagine any high skilled player being willing to put himself through all that grief. then again you could always make one. i'd imagine at the very least you'd get pages upon pages of discussion on how you over/under value yoshi and sonic. also, is captain falcon top teir at low levels of play? FALCON PAWNCH!!! it's hard to rate how good characters are assuming they are used suboptimally and the players use offensive and defensive techniques inconsistantly.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Grabbing a good Wario is very difficult indeed. However, there are other things that Peach has to deal with Wario. They've got it down as 60:40 Peach's advantage...I'll ask them to go over it again sometime with us

 

[xoxokev]

Where is the data to support the graph?

 

[salaboB]

Where is the data to support the graph?

Right here:

Please be noted that I spent maybe, 5 minutes on the chart, and it's not totally accurate

Spoiler

10disclaimers

 

[xoxokev]

Right here:

Spoiler

10disclaimers

So then... there's no data...

 

[salaboB]

So then... there's no data...

No, it was to demonstrate a concept.

If people hadn't gotten sidetracked it might have gone somewhere, though given the amount of work to generate something even half accurate for a majority of characters I doubt it would have ever really got going.

 

[ExCeL 52]

So then... there's no data...

Basically.. No.
But his data is being probably one of the best Peach players.
And alot of discussion in the Peach boards.

 

[BoRn]

Nynja: edrees hax n he knows it! Reverse 3 stocks by robbin people of jumps

 

[kr3wman]

Grabbing a good Wario is going to be the hardest thing you could do in Brawl ATM. Thats why he gets punished so much for being grabbed.

Edgeguard a good Meta Knight?

 

[Yuna]

Basically.. No.
But his data is being probably one of the best Peach players.
And alot of discussion in the Peach boards.

Except for the fact that he later admitted to the graph being exaggerated and merely a representation of a concept. He's never actually stated in this thread that he believes Peach can, on her own, win major tournaments (is viable).