Character Matchup Help (COME HERE FOR ALL MATCHUP QUESTIONS)

[CaliburChamp]

Seems like the guy you're having trouble with knows his stuff. Here's a hint for Mach Tornado approach: When you mash B with wild abandon, it'll be much easier for them to DI out of it. However, if you space your B presses such that you're pressing B as little as possible yet still getting full tornado length, it will be much harder for them to DI out. Also, try and anticipate which way he'll DI, then DI the tornado that direction. His Fsmash shouldn't outprioritize your mach tornado, try hitting him with different portions of it. I've never had a Pit's fsmash break my tornado before, they always do nothing against it.

Grab him whenever possible, because doing that will take all the pressure he's built up off you, and that leaves you an opportunity to turn the tables on him. I personally only use drill rush as a get-off-me tool or when my opponent catches on to my styles. Again, unpredictability is key in this game. You're going to have to kill him either up with u-tilt/smash or to the side with up b, dsmash or fsmash because his recovery is just too good for even MK to edgeguard effectively. However, if you do manage to get him below the stage, try and spike him into the stage with an up b or just keep him down there as long as possible so as to rack up damage for a vertical or horizontal ko later on.

Hope that helps. ^^

Pit seems like a hard match up for MK. I was able to beat all his other characters with my Meta Knight. He played Falco and Zamus too, but I was able to win at those.
And about Pits f-smash, its a quick smash attack, and has great priority, I did not know that Pit's f-smash could pierce through Mach Tornado, but now I know it can, since he constantly did this to me. Thanks for the advice about using MT though, I didnt know it could be controlled like that, by pressing B less.
I tried grabbing him, but everytime I tried to do a sliding shield grab, an arrow would hit me sometimes, but if I blocked the arrow, Pit would come at me with his side b attack and just hold his spinning blades on my shield, until it weakened my shield, and you cant shield grab through Pits side B. So I got hit out of that. It was like fighting a wall with wings and a bow and arrow. So the grabs were really hard to connect with a defense like that. And Pit would only be in close range combat with MK when he was going for the combo, he was very much a long distance fighter, or an expert camper. lol.
And I do realize now, that I was using Drill Rush a bit too often, but it was only because his defense was canceling out my grab games. So I would only be able to approach him with an aerial approach, MT, or Drill rush. And I was edgeguarding him decently, but once he got back onto the stage, the tables turned against me.
The only way I can think of winning against him next time is to be more unpredictable.

 

[Zephyr]

When approaching with mach tornado (you'll find that you'll be doing this often against Pit), predict his f-smash and make it so that the fsmash hits the tornado, not you. It shouldn't do anything. That's really all I can say. Maybe Terran can help you out a bit more?

 

[CaliburChamp]

What would you think be a good counter stage against Pit, but would benefit Metaknight? The Star Fox stages I would guess. Corneria and Lylat. What are your thoughts?

 

[Dojo]

What would you think be a good counter stage against Pit, but would benefit Metaknight? The Star Fox stages I would guess. Corneria and Lylat. What are your thoughts?

Smaller stages with ledges. Smashville and lylat would be great. Pit doesnt have anything on MK when it comes to an offensive game. Keeping a consistent pressure game on a small stage will get them off the edge easy where Pit can be gimped fairly easily.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Dojo: Yeah, those would be good counter stages. But I think your underestimating Pit... his side b can get through MT. And his arrows can be very annoying. It's not an easy match, unless your up against a novice Pit.

 

[Dojo]

Dojo: Yeah, those would be good counter stages. But I think your underestimating Pit... his side b can get through MT. And his arrows can be very annoying. It's not an easy match, unless your up against a novice Pit.

Yeah I haven't had the pleasure to face a really experienced pit yet. I still dont see it as an extremely tough matchup. But until I face a good one, I'll shut my mouth on that matter.

 

[Terranrox]

Recently my hard match up was against a person that plays Pit really well. He plays so defensive, and he plays a huge pressure game against me, constantly shooting projectiles, which sets me up for combos. I tried playing the pressure game back, but since MK doesnt have a projectile its not easy. And he always manage to seem to get out of mach tornado, or he would punish me for using it by using his f-smash against the tornado, and it would out prioritize it... then he learned how to escape my drill rush approach, by attacking from the air. This guy played Pit like a pro. Any tips for going against a really good Pit?

Pit seems like a hard match up for MK. I was able to beat all his other characters with my Meta Knight. He played Falco and Zamus too, but I was able to win at those.
And about Pits f-smash, its a quick smash attack, and has great priority, I did not know that Pit's f-smash could pierce through Mach Tornado, but now I know it can, since he constantly did this to me. Thanks for the advice about using MT though, I didnt know it could be controlled like that, by pressing B less.
I tried grabbing him, but everytime I tried to do a sliding shield grab, an arrow would hit me sometimes, but if I blocked the arrow, Pit would come at me with his side b attack and just hold his spinning blades on my shield, until it weakened my shield, and you cant shield grab through Pits side B. So I got hit out of that. It was like fighting a wall with wings and a bow and arrow. So the grabs were really hard to connect with a defense like that. And Pit would only be in close range combat with MK when he was going for the combo, he was very much a long distance fighter, or an expert camper. lol.
And I do realize now, that I was using Drill Rush a bit too often, but it was only because his defense was canceling out my grab games. So I would only be able to approach him with an aerial approach, MT, or Drill rush. And I was edgeguarding him decently, but once he got back onto the stage, the tables turned against me.
The only way I can think of winning against him next time is to be more unpredictable.

What would you think be a good counter stage against Pit, but would benefit Metaknight? The Star Fox stages I would guess. Corneria and Lylat. What are your thoughts?

For this request I really can't put my insight in this topic because I have yet to play against really skilled Pit user... however I played an armies worth of novice Pit users and they always do the "Nenenenenene" and arrows so I could give an advice on those points...

For "Nenenenenene" attack:
1. Get behind the Pit... while assuming you know your MK well, I expect you are always close to your opponent (close range MK offense = XD)
this is an easy enough task if you know how to role, jump, etc...
and the ending animation for the "Nenenene" takes a while (to me and I hope you) and you can counter attack your opponent

2. Just dont go near it will stay in one place, so eventually your opponent will realize how stupid it is to continue an attack thats not meeting its mark and not even for projectile reflecting uses since well... MK does not have projectiles...

The arrows
1. refer to my earlier post on running and slide sidestepping and slide shielding. It must be performed at the right time at the right moment
(It works but the timing must be mastered)

oh right and Dojo sometimes the matchup depends on a player's skill and techniques not there characters earlier someone mentioned about how D3 ios to beat, but his friend probably isnt a good D3... observe M2K's D3 then he woudnt seem as easy of a matchup!!! As they say don't judge a book by its cover but in this case don't judge a PC (playable character) by their player or in reverse don't judge a player by their PC

*Like the whole Gimpyfish + Bowser OMG

 

[Dpete]

I'm interested in what MK mains think of the matchup against Kirby. I read earlier in this thread on trouble dealing with Kirby's B-air, but not much else. I really want to know how you rate the matchup, as the Kirby community is torn between the matchup being neutral (5-5) or slightly in MK's favor (4-6).

 

[Zephyr]

I'm no expert on the Kirby matchup, but I would have to say that it's 6-4 in MK's favor just because he's such a broken character.

 

[Shadow 111]

hmm.. i can't decide lol.
meta knight outranges and is faster.
but kirby has a MUCH easier time with getting off a kill.
also kirby is heavier...
maybe 5/5..

also zephyr. lol i disagree on mk being broken. i think eventually people will find out how to beat him.
he really has a lot of trouble killing unless you get off a luck shuttle loop off the stage....
at least that's how it is against the heavy weights and people with good recoveries.

 

[Zephyr]

hmm.. i can't decide lol.
meta knight outranges and is faster.
but kirby has a MUCH easier time with getting off a kill.
also kirby is heavier...
maybe 5/5..

also zephyr. lol i disagree on mk being broken. i think eventually people will find out how to beat him.
he really has a lot of trouble killing unless you get off a luck shuttle loop off the stage....
at least that's how it is against the heavy weights and people with good recoveries.

You haven't played many good Metaknights, then. =/ And most shuttle loops I hit offstage are on purpose, lol.

 

[Shadow 111]

lol, i didn't say they were accidental. it's easy to dodge though is all. the only way i can usually get it off against a smart and experienced player is by mindgaming with it.. waiting out their air dodge then hopefully being able to get off a backwards one.
i also main mk and play good ones and i still don't think he's the most annoying character(in singles)

 

[WakerofWinds]

1. Pikachu
2. Projectile spamming/thunder spamming
3. Glide->glide attack/hopping over his little thunder bolts into an aerial/Mach Tornado at times.

 

[Terranrox]

I'm interested in what MK mains think of the matchup against Kirby. I read earlier in this thread on trouble dealing with Kirby's B-air, but not much else. I really want to know how you rate the matchup, as the Kirby community is torn between the matchup being neutral (5-5) or slightly in MK's favor (4-6).

I agree on 6-4 as well... but don't be surprised on good Kirby users now... I know and played against. It is no joke, I got into a close one against some of my areas best Kirby players... His f- throw is a lot more linkable now his other attacks I recall... but in the end I fortunately landed a dash attack + d smash the chase towards the edge and a shuttle loop to end it but that was quite intense since edge guarding is a bit tougher against Kirbys then normal PCs...

I'm no expert on the Kirby matchup, but I would have to say that it's 6-4 in MK's favor just because he's such a broken character.

Broken I don't know there are pretty good counter picks against MKs but aside from that I agree slightly that MK does have a tendency to eat every other character and his aggressive play style defeats many strategies including camping...

Strangest thing though even though Zephyr and I known each other for a while now (first person I met on these boards) and I have yet to ever play him in a game... we could play online but then I can't play my best online...
lol we should have a vid of us playing brawl one time or another...

I was also thinking if we should request this thread for a sticky since people are still posting "Help Against Insert Character Here" threads... maybe also get more people into our MK matchup helping team or something...

 

[Gishnak]

What is MK's most difficult matchup(s)? Which characters have advantages over him?

 

[Terranrox]

1. Pikachu
2. Projectile spamming/thunder spamming
3. Glide->glide attack/hopping over his little thunder bolts into an aerial/Mach Tornado at times.

By projectile spamming I assume you mean his neutral special attack, if not then by all means post again and be more specific)

One again due to lack of details I will make this quite long.
In this section I will divide my tips into 2 section A will be the neutral special attack performed in air and B will be tips for the attack if its performed onthe ground...

A. Pikachu's neutral special performed in the air

1. Short background: As we all know Pikachu's neutral special is much more powerful yet slower then it's ground hopping counter part reasons include
a. Does more damage

b. Has greater knock back
However the trade for the more powerful attack is that the speed of the attack is slower

2. Tips:

1. First of we know that the attack is slow so that will be our advantage

2. Now general tips against this is...

a. Dodge the attack it is fairly easy enough but in this case it will most likely be a air dodge since the attack is coming from the air towards

b. Dont try to clash with this even with the MT since Pikachu's electricity also has a high priority (due to the electricity's trait) so you can lose and end up taking the damage. (remember MK needs all his percents)

c. Space yourself between the slow flying little balls of electricity so it can not hit you place yourself in a location that is not in its path including it path were after it hit the ground and starts jumping

3. If your opponent is camping and doing so the do the dashing and slide sidestepping I explained in earlier posts so you can still advance on your opponent and not taking any damage (remember it WILL work but the timing depends on you so that it WILL work)

B. The neutral special on the ground

1. Short back ground: Its faster done on the ground then the air, but weaker also it moves in a overly predictable path

2. In this case go for my advise #3 in the earlier section

3. Get behind your opponent (if you can) before it comes out

4. Just dodge it by jumping over it one at a time since there is space between each bolt if they are spamming

C. Thunder Spamming

1. Please refer to earlier post on tips against that on page 2!!!

2. But out of all I recommend the dash pivot canceling tips I gave

What is MK's most difficult matchup(s)? Which characters have advantages over him?

That is very good question and for what I know the most difficult matchup is a GOOD Snake and a MK ditto for most people. Any advantage? Ummmm... there is a lot of advantages in comparison of MK to another character such as the comparison between MK and DK in the strength and knockback of their forward smash... where in that case DK wins... or another example would be were how Bowser has a greater advantage in the the comparison of knockback... So advantages in what field exactly?

 

[Affinity]

1. G&W
2. Crazy good smashes/high-priority moves
3. Avoiding smashes, punishing laggy moves

 

[Gishnak]

That is very good question and for what I know the most difficult matchup is a GOOD Snake and a MK ditto for most people. Any advantage? Ummmm... there is a lot of advantages in comparison of MK to another character such as the comparison between MK and DK in the strength and knockback of their forward smash... where in that case DK wins... or another example would be were how Bowser has a greater advantage in the the comparison of knockback... So advantages in what field exactly?

I'm not interested in which matchups are difficult for "most people." All of my questions are concerning a top level of competitive play, or, in other words, tournament play. To better specify, I'm looking for a character to play that I can use reliably to beat MKs in tournaments with (if my mains falter). For example, against Snake, I can use someone like DeDeDe or pikachu to give Snake trouble.

In the small amount that I have played around with MK, it seems that Marth would be a good counter. Is he? Why or why not?

It terms of the 'advantage' question, I meant overall matchup. Not in one field.

 

[Dojo]

Marth is a good counter. His ground game outprioritizes MK's in almost everyway.

 

[Zephyr]

The Marth vs. Metaknight matchup is like the old Marth vs. Fox matchup in that they both can do some relatively nasty stuff against each other. However, this time, thanks to Marth being able to kill Metaknight at 40%, I'd say the matchup goes to 7-3 in Marth's favor.

 

[Terranrox]

I'm not interested in which matchups are difficult for "most people." All of my questions are concerning a top level of competitive play, or, in other words, tournament play. To better specify, I'm looking for a character to play that I can use reliably to beat MKs in tournaments with (if my mains falter). For example, against Snake, I can use someone like DeDeDe or pikachu to give Snake trouble.

In the small amount that I have played around with MK, it seems that Marth would be a good counter. Is he? Why or why not?

It terms of the 'advantage' question, I meant overall matchup. Not in one field.

Just for a little extra information:
There is a huge gap of difference between TOP LEVEL of competitive playing and tournament playing... I have been to tournaments before and not exactly everyone who goes to tournaments are exactly the most... er..... "skilled" or "good" at the game. Reliably beat MK's.... now from what I'm going to saying this is from a hypothetical stand point in the case of two people who are equally skilled at the game who knows every possible advance technique down to perfection for their mains, or like in a RPG to characters where they have maxed out status for their particular class....

From my knowledge the following characters can "Reliably" defeat MK if it was in that "hypothetical" situation:

1. Snake
2. MK dittos
3. Marth

but on the maybe side:

1. TL
2. Olimar

Marth is definitely a good counter especially if your opponent knows how to space to get the tip fx most of the time my local smash community's current best player is a Marth main (name is classified) with me right behind him...

In the most recent game we got quite close me at 86% and him at 16-%(forgot maybe 168%) He almost lost that time but the finishing attack that time was the tipped f- smash that got me good and even DI didnt save me...

Long story short Marth is a good counter since his speed is also impressive and almost all his attacks are deadly to MKs
(Hypothetically if this guy is as equally skilled as you)

For the most difficult matchup its practically what I put up earlier in this post


also maybe we should sticky this thread

 

[Zephyr]

1. G&W
2. Crazy good smashes/high-priority moves
3. Avoiding smashes, punishing laggy moves

G&W was a hard matchup for me at first, but he got pretty easy after I figured out how he plays. They do like their dair -> up b -> dair -> up b pressure come, but all you have to do against that is memorize the spacing and stay just outside it with a charged d smash for punishment. The turtle (his back air) MUST be shielded. Your airdodge isn't long enough, and you'll regret trying it. You can also MT it, but neither Terran or I are sure whether MT outprioritizes the turtle. Shield his dairs for a free grab as well.

Now to your problem...smashes and high priority moves? Avoiding smashes is all you can really do against them. If you're having trouble with it, it's because you're not avoiding them or not avoiding them correctly. You can shield them, you can side dodge them, you can air dodge them (not recommended), you can jump over them, you can run away from them. You can also not get hit by them (highly recommended). Part of your problem might be that you're not pushing aggressively and applying lots of pressure. If you let a G&W run free, they can control the match. But they can't do that under pressure because they need room. Don't give them that room. Move in fast, go for the grabs and aerial combos and most importantly get them off the stage. If you control the match, your chances of winning skyrocket.

 

[Terranrox]

As one of the two creators/ advisors of this thread I must thank you for the contributions of questions added to the thread and is happy to announce that five pages has now gone by and proud to present our first update of the first post (we are thinking about updating it one every five pages I think)

Our update is basically gathered up tips from questions so that same question won't be repeated over and over so people can actually see what questions have already been asked.... So read b4 you post k'

Our goal is to make this thread at least 10 pgs long to ask for a sticky so until then thank you for your cooperation

One more announcement I also like to mention that Zephyr and I are looking for more official advisors to this thread... We view that more views on a certain topic would be beneficial to let people have more options in play style... I'm thinking over if we should get a staff of at least 5 or official advisors and I wish to see our reader's view over this topic and the advisors could possibly be chosen via invitation, interview (we cant let any broad in because we have to know if you know your MK [lol like letting in a Olimar main into our team to give advice on MK]), or maybe I dont know if you guys have a good idea I would love to here.

1. G&W
2. Crazy good smashes/high-priority moves
3. Avoiding smashes, punishing laggy moves

I believe that what you already tried is basically the best solution to your problem but the catch is that perhaps your not approaching the avoiding factor right... and punishing comes after the avoiding so two birds with one stone... so further elaborate on what you mean by avoiding... (running away, side stepping, rolling, walk spacing, dimensional cape-ing away, jump to avoid, air dodge, etc.)

Avoiding is a bit vague so please post again stating what kind of avoiding are you doing...

 

[Affinity]

Avoiding is a bit vague so please post again stating what kind of avoiding are you doing...

I can't really get more specific; the only good G&Ws I've played were the ones that rocked me at the last tournament that I went to.

Thanks for the advice though. I'll keep it all in mind next time I play against a good G&W.

 

[Terranrox]

all right then... dont hesitate to ask I know G+W can be quite tricky...

Also I would like to add and say how do the readers feel about our suggestions and advise are they good? informative? or helpful? feed back would be nice

I might have forgotten to add about G+W's u air but if your caught gliding while this is being done at you dont hold the glide too long you might accidentally be found flying through the stage and over it not to mention the saying up in the air is annoying

 

[Terranrox]

this time I have a question:

1. Lucario
2. Deceptive Aura range and length of time for the attack
3. Spacing, my usual side stepping (the attack seems to last even after it's animation for a while so I still get aura burned)

 

[TERICTATZTNT]

hey, if you are getting hit while using Mach Tornado, just control the tornado and reverse then go right back to hit them with the hitbox. you can just about easily maneuver a mach tornado. all you have to do is predict their moves just a bit beforehand. then you have one sad pit floating in the air for you to take advantage of.

 

[TERICTATZTNT]

it may say i'm a smash noob, but i am quite good with my MK i can't play any other character, but i play one mean MK, although sometimes i have a fear of Shuttle looping off stage because if i miss or start too low, i will miss the edge or run into the wall. yes, the dash attack followed by up-smash is a very wild combo; wild as in crazy good. side dodging and hitting f-tilt, dashing, light f-air. i also have a trick of my own, which i dont know if anyone knows yet, but of course i don't read too many threads or forums. there is a very very important recover option that knocks anyone off the edge leaving them open to an easy up-air, down-air combo. i've killed many straight out of spawn without them even getting close with this combo. i have yet to perfect it, but so far the potential is incredible. i'd say that the Shuttle Loop is my main source of leverage in any game. you have 5 options with the shuttle loop. 1. out of shield, 2. knock them straight into wall, 3. towards the stage and get them with the reverse effect, good at about 100%? just a guesstimate lol, 4. (when using final destination) perfect way to keep the edge occupied you get invincibility and the speed of shuttle loop lets you time and get priority. i am being unclear in details on purpose, you either find out for yourself, or you don't get it at all lol. if you play MK enough, you will get some out of 4 & 5, but of course for now 5 will remain clearly a mystery if you happen to see my game somehow (highly unlikely), you will be astonished, haha. think about it~
SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL <but don't spam -_-> SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL SL

 

[TERICTATZTNT]

i have to admit, with all the fancies of shuttle loop and f-tilt with f-air, i forget of the possibilities that d-tilt holds. when you have no idea how to stall, and mach tornado is not an option, d-tilt is the answer. im also seeing that an attack straight after climbing the edge is very interesting when your foe decides to land right on the tip because you are edge hogging. the down tilt serves as a good way to shatter concentration and pressure, am i wrong?

 

[bluebolt]

for DDD

when I use mach tornado, it stops the waddle dees from hurting me

 

[Terranrox]

i have to admit, with all the fancies of shuttle loop and f-tilt with f-air, i forget of the possibilities that d-tilt holds. when you have no idea how to stall, and mach tornado is not an option, d-tilt is the answer. im also seeing that an attack straight after climbing the edge is very interesting when your foe decides to land right on the tip because you are edge hogging. the down tilt serves as a good way to shatter concentration and pressure, am i wrong?

Kind of? First of all I disagree with the shattering the pressure d tilt is a great offensive tactic and frequently used in combos (refer to the absolute combos thread mentioned on samurai panda's all you need to know thread) and is awesome due to it's 50% trip rate... thus increasing your pressure on your opponent and unleash your offensive strategy arsenal...

Now concentration is not a word frequently used in these boards so please elaborate on what you mean by that... (such a vague word) also there could be videos on you so you never know like the other day I was approached and was complimented: "Oh hey Insert Terranrox's Identity here I was a video of your MK and Marth and your pretty good." then I said, "There are videos of me playing brawl?" (stalkers.....)

for DDD

when I use mach tornado, it stops the waddle dees from hurting me

Yeah, pretty useful right we mentioned it earlier in this thread...

... o and my previous question against Lucario still stands and no MT is not the solution after many tests

 

[OverLade]

1. Toon Link
2 Using projectiles defensively, ability to rack up damage faster than MK, more versatile and stronger air game than MK. None of MK's attacks can hit Toon link as he short hops, and his Fair loses to Toon links Bair.
3. A straight up fight. Using anything possible.

I played two matches this way, and both got us both to 100% on the last stock, but I lost both of them. He shielded my Dsmashes and countered with his, but always stayed out of grab range and Ftilt range so I couldn't punish him. I managed to keep the match close through sheer willpower, but I still couldn't overcome it. >_>

Edit: Dojo, you have expirience fighting toon link, dont you? *oogles at Can't kill the metal video*

 

[Admiral Pit]

I have many rivals that I face. One of them, apparently uses a regular Link. Taking advantage of Meta's poor defense against constant projectiles, he uses the Boomerang, bombs and arrows usually, and when in close combat its usually an AAA, AA Dsmash, AA grab.
Though I beat him most times, I fear of Toon Links being similar to that, even more annoying than a Pit will ever be, especially when bombs cancel out Drill rush, and the Mach tornado.

How do u handle projectile users (Excluding Pit) and those who may outrange Meta?
And what about Olimars and their addiction to Shield Grabbing, or grabbing in general?

 

[Terranrox]

1. Toon Link
2 Using projectiles defensively, ability to rack up damage faster than MK, more versatile and stronger air game than MK. None of MK's attacks can hit Toon link as he short hops, and his Fair loses to Toon links Bair.
3. A straight up fight. Using anything possible.

I played two matches this way, and both got us both to 100% on the last stock, but I lost both of them. He shielded my Dsmashes and countered with his, but always stayed out of grab range and Ftilt range so I couldn't punish him. I managed to keep the match close through sheer willpower, but I still couldn't overcome it. >_>

Edit: Dojo, you have expirience fighting toon link, dont you? *oogles at Can't kill the metal video*

Well here is also a fine person who recognizes TL as a good matchup instead of just Snake...

I believe we have covered TL's projectile problems in a previous post and thanks to Zephyr's first post update you can refer to that towards near the end of the first post...
However whats new about this problem is the problem against TL's aerial game...
I can also see the problem clearly as we all know by now TL's SH and regular Jump goes a bit high so it makes it harder to hit...
In terms of power yes TL is greater but I disagree on it being more versatile...
first of all you said, "None of MK's attacks can hit Toon link as he short hops"

Most likely you tried MK's u- smash and yes that probably wont hit, but the u tilt will since the u- tilt has a longer range... (It is stronger than and does more damage than an uncharged u- smash's first two hits so in a time cruch were ever hit counts and your opponent is smart enough to DI out of the big hits go for the u-tilt)

* Extra tip/ reminder: remember to use attacks that you normally dont use and experiment with it to make it useable!!!

"and his Fair loses to Toon links Bair" was also brought up and I'm guessing your referring to that TL combo were TL runs at you turns around suddenly and then SHs while doing two bairs right and the two bairs come at you while using the momentum of going forward from the dash?... (there was a name to this move but I forgot how it went...)

Well why don't you copy it MK style. People dont realize this but Mk's bair is also pretty powerful to arguably stronger then the fair so do what your friend does but except with MK

I have many rivals that I face. One of them, apparently uses a regular Link. Taking advantage of Meta's poor defense against constant projectiles, he uses the Boomerang, bombs and arrows usually, and when in close combat its usually an AAA, AA Dsmash, AA grab.
Though I beat him most times, I fear of Toon Links being similar to that, even more annoying than a Pit will ever be, especially when bombs cancel out Drill rush, and the Mach tornado.

How do u handle projectile users (Excluding Pit) and those who may outrange Meta?
And what about Olimars and their addiction to Shield Grabbing, or grabbing in general?

Well as I said, refer to the updated section of the previously asked questions on the first post against projectile users (we covered most projectile users especially against Snakes and Link and TL)

what can I say except for don't let yourself get grabbed but however in this case I would recommend an aerial approach SH and Gliding but more importantly get behind your opponent the only weakness I see from getting behind is the possibility of the dash reverse grab... but then again just jump...

Once again to the public regarding this thread to the general readers who do you want to see as a fellow matchup helper/ suggester aside from me and Zephyr...

 

[null55]

Duck under his lasers...no, really. XD

Shield his gyros, then throw them back at him.

Once you do this, use whatever aerials you feel are necessary. D-throw is especially effective. Make sure to edge-guard VERY aggressively against this guy, he won't go down without a fight. A very, very long fight.

Shield his gyros, then throw them back? Once you shield a gyro it disappears... -_-;

 

[OverLade]

Well here is also a fine person who recognizes TL as a good matchup instead of just Snake...

I believe we have covered TL's projectile problems in a previous post and thanks to Zephyr's first post update you can refer to that towards near the end of the first post...
However whats new about this problem is the problem against TL's aerial game...
I can also see the problem clearly as we all know by now TL's SH and regular Jump goes a bit high so it makes it harder to hit...
In terms of power yes TL is greater but I disagree on it being more versatile...
first of all you said, "None of MK's attacks can hit Toon link as he short hops"

Most likely you tried MK's u- smash and yes that probably wont hit, but the u tilt will since the u- tilt has a longer range... (It is stronger than and does more damage than an uncharged u- smash's first two hits so in a time cruch were ever hit counts and your opponent is smart enough to DI out of the big hits go for the u-tilt)

* Extra tip/ reminder: remember to use attacks that you normally dont use and experiment with it to make it useable!!!

"and his Fair loses to Toon links Bair" was also brought up and I'm guessing your referring to that TL combo were TL runs at you turns around suddenly and then SHs while doing two bairs right and the two bairs come at you while using the momentum of going forward from the dash?... (there was a name to this move but I forgot how it went...)

Well why don't you copy it MK style. People dont realize this but Mk's bair is also pretty powerful to arguably stronger then the fair so do what your friend does but except with MK

Thanks for the advice, but approaching wise, his strategy was to force me to approach using projectiles, and once I got close, use bombs defensively to rack up damage, since at close range they're difficult to avoid. He basically tried to keep me RIGHT at a distance where SHbairs and bombs would eat me up, and EVERY time I tried to edguard him, he'd use bombs, and somehow they ALWAYS worked well.

But I'll take your advice about Utilt, though knocking Toon link up is dangerous because of his broken Dair.

But I honestly think Toon link is a pretty bad match up for Metaknight, probably tipped in TL's favor with the projectile use.

I haven't had too much trouble with marth players, as I've found counter overuse to be punishable, and his recovery easy to gimp. And I play marth myself, so I know the distance that the tip hits from, and make an effort to avoid being there.

 

[lonelytraveler8]

Just a quick note...if bombs are thrown from a distance (say you're trying to edge guard), they are pretty easy to catch with a little bit of practice. Then you can throw them back, drop them or just get rid of them. At close range, the best you can do is airdodge or try to powershield.

Note: I don't use items much, but if Brawl is like Melee in this sense, you can airdodge and it'll grab and item. If not, then you should be able to airdodge, and press A as the item passes through you to grab it. It's something worth trying out, at least.

 

[Terranrox]

Just a quick note...if bombs are thrown from a distance (say you're trying to edge guard), they are pretty easy to catch with a little bit of practice. Then you can throw them back, drop them or just get rid of them. At close range, the best you can do is airdodge or try to powershield.

Note: I don't use items much, but if Brawl is like Melee in this sense, you can airdodge and it'll grab and item. If not, then you should be able to airdodge, and press A as the item passes through you to grab it. It's something worth trying out, at least.

Exactly right, and on the terms of approach I cant express enough how vital it is to master the dash attack item grab technique against the bombs so learn that to keep advancing and as for arrow bombarding MT devours
them so no worrys there as for boomerang... well slide side step them.. itts easier then it seems

Thanks for the advice, but approaching wise, his strategy was to force me to approach using projectiles, and once I got close, use bombs defensively to rack up damage, since at close range they're difficult to avoid. He basically tried to keep me RIGHT at a distance where SHbairs and bombs would eat me up, and EVERY time I tried to edguard him, he'd use bombs, and somehow they ALWAYS worked well.

But I'll take your advice about Utilt, though knocking Toon link up is dangerous because of his broken Dair.

But I honestly think Toon link is a pretty bad match up for Metaknight, probably tipped in TL's favor with the projectile use.

I haven't had too much trouble with marth players, as I've found counter overuse to be punishable, and his recovery easy to gimp. And I play marth myself, so I know the distance that the tip hits from, and make an effort to avoid being there.

The dair's speed is what makes it easy to side step so.. side step it...

I would say equal matchup between MK and TL

 

[Dynomite]

good read ima try to get into that .. thx soo much :D

 

[Terranrox]

good read ima try to get into that .. thx soo much :D

Thank you so much... is there anything you want to add to make an improvement?