Too lazy to work out character matchup problems on your own? Feel like making yet another thread asking how to beat DeDeDe? Look no further! TerranRox and I have compiled various styles and matchups here for you to read up on. With luck, this guide will help you on your way to beating whatever it is that just really pisses you off.
For info on how matchup help is going to work, use ctrl-f and find [matchups].
METANIGHT STYLES
Style 1 - The Offensive Metaknight
-----------------------------------------
What not to do:
1) Spam A. I know it’s fun, just don’t.
2.) Give your opponent time to think or breathe; you need him to do neither in order to be successful with an offensive MK.
3.) Shielding and air dodging are at a minimum. They are better things you could be doing.
What to do:
1.) Use Mach Tornado to throw your opponent off balance.
2.) Combo using repeated aerials, preferably offstage so as to get an off-the-side kill with a shuttle loop finish.
3.) Edgeguard offstage. A lot.
MK’s offense is incredibly effective when one goes about it the right way. However, if you’re just flailing blindly, you’ll find yourself skewered on the end of your opponent’s upsmash flying off the top of the screen. The goal with the offensive MK is to kill your opponent off quickly and efficiently, with as little fuss as possible. Use the mach tornado (here on out referred to as MT) whenever your opponent starts using projectiles to try and throw you off balance, it’ll both repel the projectiles (depending on the projectile) and earn you a little free %.
Dashing towards your opponent and doing a SHed aerial in his face can be surprisingly effective. When they’re shielding. I would suggest dashing past them and giving them a well-spaced bair so as to avoid punishment. Or just down-throwing them to an aerial combo to potential finisher via shuttle loop. Nair makes for a good attack when shielded due to its multiple hits.
Gliding in with a land-canceled glide attack to an aerial combo can also be effective. The aerial usually comes out to fast for the opponent to shield grab (if they did shield), so they’re stuck no matter what happens. That about sums it up for approaches with the short little demon.
After getting in range of your opponent through any of the various means available, you have a plethora of options available to you. You can take your opponent upwards with a chain of uairs or fair/dair chase him off the ledge. Your main goal at this point is to find a way to get your opponent off the ledge.
After getting him off the ledge, follow him with dairs or a reverse shuttle loop to finish him off. If they have a vertical recovery, drop below them and shuttle loop to both recover and spike them into the wall. If they tech, do it again. MK has so much potential offstage it’s not even funny. You can do anything, and all you have to do is occasionally return to the ledge to get your jumps back then go back to harassing your opponent to death. That’s about all I have to say on the offensive MK.
Now let's see what TerranRox has to say on the defensive and hybrid MK...
Lesson 2: Defensive Meta Knight
Part A: The Overview
To begin with, I would like to say that Meta Knight's best defense is his offense as useful as I know it sounds, but pardon me for saying and correct me if I'm wrong but that's majority of my overview. However, I can still give out a few tips for those people who have problems against spammers, n00bs, and seemingly impressive combos (there is technically no such thing as combos in brawl due to the new physics but you know what I mean). Mind that even though the current defensive Meta Knight section may seem lacking, but keep in mind that this is subject to change type of thread. (New techniques may come out, so who knows except for the almighty Ouija board)
Part B: Things To Do and Things Not To Do
Things Not to Do
1. In a projectile barrage situation, attempting to break (such as missiles) or try to dodge the projectiles using special attacks.
a. Simply "No" stop it.
b. If you think the mach tornado or the drill rush has a high enough priority to break a missile and return unscathed? Think again it will just explode in your face so no.
c. No, dimensional cape-ing will make you seem as if you disappear but for no apparent reason, you can still be hit by attacks, take damage, and suffer knock back. (One time my friend's F- Smash got me while I was in my disappearing stage then… Boom! Head Shot, and before I was knew it I was a stock short)
d. Shuttle Loop could work but it really depends on the distance between you and your foe, I also highly recommend saving your shuttle loop for a kill. (one term: Stale Move Negator)
2. Believe that Dimensional Cape is a counter/ defensive maneuver
a. It isn't one
b. Best used for edge guard, don't recommend it for much else
3. Neglect Shield (its stupid so don't)
Things To Do
1. Keep up the offense so you don't leave any space for them to go into offense
2. Keep your foe on the line and try to predict his tactics so you can create a counter measure
3. Simply try to get hit as little as you can.
4. Use shield techniques like the sliding shield
5. If worst comes to worst and you cant handle the heat use a finisher too early to put space between yourself and your foe (This is only to be used if your fingers are starting to cramp/ or get sweaty. Pausing will only mess up the pressure you built up, so spacing will give your hands a short break. Because the only thing that cannot be regained once earned is time.)
6. DI is the ultimate defense against all combos
Lesson 3: Hybrid Meta Knight
Part A: General Overview
Hopefully if you get good enough with the offense you don't have to apply to the defensive tips I gave. Since, it's hard for your foes to get into projectile barrage when your right at there faces applying pressure with a sword that swings to a speed that shatters the sound barrier. So the hybrid Meta Knight (fyi/ aka: the Meta Knight that applies both defense and offense constantly) is considerably second ranked compared to a Meta Knight user who has spectacular offense. Once again comment if you think I'm wrong.
Part B: Things To Do and Things Not to Do
Things Not to Do
1. Go mainly into a defensive Meta Knight strategy
2. Concentrate to hard on making an all around Meta Knight
Things To Do
1. Think aggressively
2. Always do SOMETHING (standing still is never the solution)
3. Be the MK constantly on offense
[matchups]
OK, so here's how matchups are going to work...you're going to make your posts in this format:
1. What character is the problem?
2. What is the problem?
3. What have you tried already to solve the problem?
We will answer your posts with a subsequent post as we are able. After enough questions have been answered, I'll go through the thread and make a compilation of all questions and answers and put it up right in this section for reference for anyone who needs matchup help so we don't end up having repeat questions.
That's it. Fire away.
"1. Snake
2. Shielded grenade strategy
3. Attacking, grabbing."
Well dont be so sure since knowing how to use gernades about 1/3 of the advanced thinking and strategies revolve around timing. I have played against pretty well experienced players and the grenade timing are definitely important to tactics. So this strategy can be implied from the view. However it seems from your description your friend is a tap then throw the the as soon as you can kind of strategy kind of person (if I'm wrong please post again and describe in deeper detail in his grenade style) if this is so then here is what I suggest:
1. Practice thrown item grabbing on the ground and aerial or in the grenade shielding case the item grabbing while performing a dash attack.
a. because its amusing to use your foes weapon against them
b.you'll definitely not only learn an incredibly useful skill but also became that much more dangerous
2. Dodge the grenade when thrown or wait out the 3 to 4 second timer on the grenade
3.Try that strategy from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171650 but faster
4. Or when he does the grenade shield do a grab if you know you can reach your foe within the 3-4 sec blow up time limit
5. If you mistakenly grab your opponent when the grenade starts to glow, your right go for the up grab since the down grab meat shield strategy does not work
6. If you want try something that not only looks cool and seem really awesome here is what you do "sliding grab" in the grenade shield predicament and make sure your at top speed to put the slide into maximum slide distance
a. in this case dont up grab
b. I recommend for first timers to go for the sliding down grab
c. for more experienced people slide grab them when your grenade count reaches the 1-2 second count on the grenade and then while still holding your opponent when the grenade starts to glow throw back so your opponent not only takes damage from your throw but also from his own grenade... humiliating to the opponent and make your MK bad *** seeming
~ TerranRox
"1. Snake.
2. Explosives (Mortar sliding, C4s, Prox. mines, and especially grenades), and his tilts.
3. Lots of grabs and throws."
I think I went through the whole grenade speech both stationary and thrown in my first advise so unless it's really special grenade strategy be specific and ask again. (Or you didnt read )
C4s what can I say but not go near them or not let them get onto your MK. If worst comes to worst make contact as soon as you can with your opponent(s) to pass on the C4 to turn it into a frantic game of hot potato. (Yes it is not only remote control activated but also timed)
The mines are different story since they are a double edged sword weapon of Snake.
#1 Whatever you do be particularly careful of not get getting grabbed or knocked back into the mine
#2 Get the opponent into their own mine try grabs but in this case particularly b grab since all the other grabs will make the opponent fly "over" the mine (f grab) or get yourself and your opponent into the mine and you both blow up (d grab and u grab (on another note this type of kamikaze grab is done by sliding grab))
But I can imagine this as a possible wtf response...
"What if I am positioned where when I b grab it sends them off the stage rather then blowing up my opponent on his own mine?"
My answer is this... I this situation you must learn how to the reverse grab... If you dont know what this is go to "compendium of advance techniques" or something along those lines of titles stickied on the Tactical Discussion boards for Brawl.
This move is very useful if you want to get the right grab out of the right situation and direction.
~ TerranRox
Mortar sliding...Shield it if your level with them. After shielding you can grab them. If they end up behind you, d-smash or nair out of shield. Or MT out of shield. You know, just to piss them off. If you're above, then dodge it and get level so you can approach via glide or some other approach method (which you should have ready).
C4. Learn the hitbox. Then abuse it. Feint in and out of its range to get them to try and detonate it, or go across from it so they either have to camp you (which you can easily counter) or run across to you to abuse their tilts (which are beaten by MT), thus rendering the C4 useless.
Proximity mines. I just avoid them and wait for them to forget it's there then get themselves owned. There are methods for knocking them into the mine, but they're both self-explanatory and very situational, so I won't mention them. Just don't hit it.
Grenades. Now these are fun. You can up-throw gimp them, you can catch the grenade and throw it back when the timer reaches one second or so. If they're sheild grenading, GTFO. You can't do anything, but increasing your distance forces them to drop the shield nade tactic. Just...whatever you do, DO NOT MT THESE. They'll explode inconsistently, meaning that sometimes they'll blow up and sometimes they won't. It's not worth the risk.
~ Zephyr
"1. Toon Link
2. Projectile camping
3. Attacking from above, Mach tornadoing when no bombs are present."
As we all know Toon Link and Link uses a variety of projectile weapons so in the future I humbly request which projectile your opponent Toon link uses.... But as a service I will tell all to almost every projectile spamming...
A. Bombs
As you may be aware the bombs are very much alike to snake's grenades except for one crucial thing: the timing for the bombs have a longer explosion time and for future reference I strongly recommend that you go into training mode and record how long it takes for the bomb to blow...
But when you mean by spam I assume your opponent is the time to keep pulling out bombs and throws the immediately so in this case I would refer to my earlier suggestions with snake's grenade problems:
"1. Practice thrown item grabbing on the ground and aerial or in the grenade shielding case the item grabbing while performing a dash attack.
a. because its amusing to use your foes weapon against them
b.you'll definitely not only learn an incredibly useful skill but also became that much more dangerous
2. Dodge the grenade when thrown"
However in this case DO NOT wait out the timer since it is longer then the grenade if you opponent likes to hold on to it like a kamikaze...
To turn this situation around though into an offensive opportunity I will refer to a suggestion made from another thread in my own words (gotta give credit):
When your running at the opponent and he/she unleashes a projectile keep running at them and until the projectile gets really close to you then side step to avoid the projectile and you'll perform a sliding side step dodge.
Now this is very good tip because the sliding momentum keeps you moving forward at your enemy but the side step will make you not take the damage or get knocked back from the projectile if it is timed right because side step gives you a few invincibility frames which is enough to avoid the in coming bomb.
If this does not work it most likely means the bomb didnt hit you but the bomb exploded ON THE GROUND in front of you and Toon Link's bomb explosion proximity hit boxes got you. If this is the case the merely dodge AWAY from the bomb if it is right right in front of you.
2. Arrows
I would go with my advice of running at them then slide side step since arrows are much easier to dodge and with a very predictable trajectory path
Or you dont even have to side step with the slide side step just a normal one since there isnt a exploding repercussion hit boxes on the arrow (fortunately... hehehe lol hax bomb arrows from the series)
or if you have the whimsy perform a clash with the arrow (perhaps the f- tilt)
3. Boomerang
Jump/ Glide over it
if he/ she angle the boomerang merely glide cancel and fast fall so it wont hit you because they fly at about a 45 degree angle. but when it comes back try not to get hit by it since for us MK users every % is worth a fortune to avoid this I recommends knocking the link vertically because when the boomerang comes back it follows him and if you dodged the initial throw by gliding over it go for the gliding slash
~ TerranRox
A comment on Toon Link's arrows...use mach tornado if given no other option. The priority will kill the arrows and you can take the opening in order to rush him with the rest of the tornado.
~ Zephyr
"1. Wolf
2. Laser camping followed by Fsmash when finally approached.
3. Gliding > Glide attack or SHAD to Dsmash."
I take it you're playing a lot online? Because this should never give anyone problems in real life. Ever.
However, I'm in the top 100 on GB and know what I'm doing against spammy Wolf's, so I can help you out. Gliding into a glide attack (or a glide cancel mindgame) can be effective, but you know what I find even more satisfying then that? Tornado the spamming losers. Now, you'll think at first, "But Zephyr, Wolf's lasers even beat tornado! I can't do anything!" Wrong. Get to the ledge, jump from the ledge and utilize the invincibility frames to get above the laser wall. Then tornado towards the laser spamming Wolf and follow their DI. It won't matter if they try to f-smash you because MT outprioritizes it. After throwing them off balance, proceed to pressure and ****.
~ Zephyr
"1. Pikachu
2. Dsmash spam if approached or dsmash out of thunder
3. Dtilt and trying to grab after attack... always end up hit by last frames..."
I'll do this one and speak of the devil Zephyr and I were recently discussing a technique that could come useful in this situation... It's called the dash pivot cancel (thanks to SamuraiPanda for discovering this move) well anyways if you friend is a predictable spammer liken how most are well you approach your friend just close enough so that your almost in range of the down smash (It has to be really close though but space enough to not get hit by it) and after you do the dash pivot cancel do a F Smash... But remember the dash pivot cancel is kind of like a emergency brake with a follow up so... perhaps this can also be applied as the anti thunder technique...(If you dont know how it's done or looks SamuraiPanda has a video on that on youtube)
But then again there is always that chance of you being hit by one anyways, but there was also something about that mentioned in ep 36 of SMYN that I tested and was true... simply tilt the analogue stick up and you'll just come out of it not taking on the maximum damage of the D- smash
If you dont think you can handle my tips then yeah... dont approach him/her she will get bored some day and come after you...
but then If you get bored first (lol the waiting game) Walk towards her. When at the most possible range limit, d tilt her until she trips then do what you do except note try using attacks with horizontal knockback ... since the thunder is a completely verticle and so the thunder cant punish you.
Even if you did try D- Tilt did you space far enough? That could be the reason why it failed...
~ TerranRox
"1. DK
2. Overall Matchup
3. Being a good MK player"
DK is an interesting matchup, to be sure. You have to stay aggressive, but you also have to be careful of his numerous methods of getting you off him. As long as you keep the aerial and throw combos coming, along with up b combos and d smash out of shield, you shouldn't have very much trouble. And honestly, if the DK is so good with DI that he survives up to 180 or so, I just up throw kill him. If you hit with the back end and tipper with your dsmash, you can take him out with relative ease. The same goes for edgeguarding. If you knock him offstage, go offstage with him and dair, then pressure him to use up b. If he does, there's a chance that he'll have up b'd too soon to recover properly. Also, just get him downwards offstage. That murders DK's otherwise decent recovery.
Hope that helps people with DK trouble.
Also, don't get hit by his F-smash. Ever. It kills puppies. And MK's.
~ Zephyr
"1. D3
2. CG's and annoying projectiles
3. what i ever i do i get own"
IRL, yes, DDD is pretty easy to beat. With lag online, though, his Waddle Dees are a real ***** to have to deal with.
Also, speed doesn't counter projectiles. It's best if you just shield DDD's projectiles, because you don't want to chance failing to dodge and getting hit by a Gordo.
~ Zephyr
"1. Falco
2. CG's and annoying projectiles
3. what i ever i do i get own"
On Falco, his lasers are easier to deal with than Wolf. It's much the same strategy that you use with Wolf: Tornado above the lasers, hit him with it, then proceed to pressure. He'll start to panic and maybe make mistakes as he tries to get you off him. Once he gets away, rinse and repeat. Dsmash or up b for the ko.
~ Zephyr
"1. ROB
2. Lasers, Gyro and Campy Rob
3. How do I approach and out-aerial him?"
Duck under his lasers...no, really, duck under them. XD
Once you do this, use whatever aerials you feel are necessary. D-throw is especially effective. Make sure to edge-guard VERY aggressively against this guy, he won't go down without a fight. A very, very long fight.
~ Zephyr
Zephyr got it pretty good I noticed that the ducking works really well...
mind that this refers to even ground if your even slightly more elevated ground to the laser -ing Rob you will get hit... aside from that unless it angles the laser and your right next to it you wont get hit
and as for the gyro yeah shield it and throw it back but be careful picking it up since it should still be revolving and you could take damage... (remember fellow MKers every percent counts)
~ TerranRox
"how do i fight against diddy,
diddy's bananas are hard cause when i run toward them i either slip or he throws them at me, and when i block he has 2 so he throws another one right after leading into a dash combo"
1. SH over the bananas
2. Running Attack grab the bananas (tap a while performing the attack)
3. If he throws the bananas refer to earlier post about running and the side stepping...
~ TerranRox
He can't combo you with bananas if you're airborne. -_- Also, if both bananas are on the ground, you can MT over them to approach. You can also set the bananas yourself to distract him momentarily and take the opportunity to put pressure on him. Everyone has a breaking point.
~ Zephyr
"Recently my hard match up was against a person that plays Pit really well. He plays so defensive, and he plays a huge pressure game against me, constantly shooting projectiles, which sets me up for combos. I tried playing the pressure game back, but since MK doesnt have a projectile its not easy. And he always manage to seem to get out of mach tornado, or he would punish me for using it by using his f-smash against the tornado, and it would out prioritize it... then he learned how to escape my drill rush approach, by attacking from the air. This guy played Pit like a pro. Any tips for going against a really good Pit?"
Seems like the guy you're having trouble with knows his stuff. Here's a hint for Mach Tornado approach: When you mash B with wild abandon, it'll be much easier for them to DI out of it. However, if you space your B presses such that you're pressing B as little as possible yet still getting full tornado length, it will be much harder for them to DI out. Also, try and anticipate which way he'll DI, then DI the tornado that direction. His Fsmash shouldn't outprioritize your mach tornado, try hitting him with different portions of it. I've never had a Pit's fsmash break my tornado before, they always do nothing against it.
Grab him whenever possible, because doing that will take all the pressure he's built up off you, and that leaves you an opportunity to turn the tables on him. I personally only use drill rush as a get-off-me tool or when my opponent catches on to my styles. Again, unpredictability is key in this game. You're going to have to kill him either up with u-tilt/smash or to the side with up b, dsmash or fsmash because his recovery is just too good for even MK to edgeguard effectively. However, if you do manage to get him below the stage, try and spike him into the stage with an up b or just keep him down there as long as possible so as to rack up damage for a vertical or horizontal ko later on.
When approaching with mach tornado (you'll find that you'll be doing this often against Pit), predict his f-smash and make it so that the fsmash hits the tornado, not you. It shouldn't do anything. That's really all I can say.
Hope that helps. ^^
~ Zephyr
"1. Pit
2. He's really good.
3. I'm not good enough." (this is paraphrased, obviously)
For this request I really can't put my insight in this topic because I have yet to play against really skilled Pit user... however I played an armies worth of novice Pit users and they always do the "Nenenenenene" and arrows so I could give an advice on those points...
For "Nenenenenene" attack:
1. Get behind the Pit... while assuming you know your MK well, I expect you are always close to your opponent (close range MK offense = XD)
this is an easy enough task if you know how to role, jump, etc...
and the ending animation for the "Nenenene" takes a while (to me and I hope you) and you can counter attack your opponent
2. Just dont go near it will stay in one place, so eventually your opponent will realize how stupid it is to continue an attack thats not meeting its mark and not even for projectile reflecting uses since well... MK does not have projectiles...
The arrows
1. refer to my earlier post on running and slide sidestepping and slide shielding. It must be performed at the right time at the right moment
(It works but the timing must be mastered)
~ TerranRox
"What would you think be a good counter stage against Pit, but would benefit Metaknight? The Star Fox stages I would guess. Corneria and Lylat. What are your thoughts?"
Smaller stages with ledges. Smashville and lylat would be great. Pit doesnt have anything on MK when it comes to an offensive game. Keeping a consistent pressure game on a small stage will get them off the edge easy where Pit can be gimped fairly easily.
~ Dojo
"1. Pikachu
2. Projectile spamming/thunder spamming
3. Glide->glide attack/hopping over his little thunder bolts into an aerial/Mach Tornado at times."
By projectile spamming I assume you mean his neutral special attack, if not then by all means post again and be more specific)
One again due to lack of details I will make this quite long.
In this section I will divide my tips into 2 section A will be the neutral special attack performed in air and B will be tips for the attack if its performed onthe ground...
A. Pikachu's neutral special performed in the air
1. Short background: As we all know Pikachu's neutral special is much more powerful yet slower then it's ground hopping counter part reasons include
a. Does more damage
b. Has greater knock back
However the trade for the more powerful attack is that the speed of the attack is slower
2. Tips:
1. First of we know that the attack is slow so that will be our advantage
2. Now general tips against this is...
a. Dodge the attack it is fairly easy enough but in this case it will most likely be a air dodge since the attack is coming from the air towards
b. Dont try to clash with this even with the MT since Pikachu's electricity also has a high priority (due to the electricity's trait) so you can lose and end up taking the damage. (remember MK needs all his percents)
c. Space yourself between the slow flying little balls of electricity so it can not hit you place yourself in a location that is not in its path including it path were after it hit the ground and starts jumping
3. If your opponent is camping and doing so the do the dashing and slide sidestepping I explained in earlier posts so you can still advance on your opponent and not taking any damage (remember it WILL work but the timing depends on you so that it WILL work)
B. The neutral special on the ground
1. Short back ground: Its faster done on the ground then the air, but weaker also it moves in a overly predictable path
2. In this case go for my advise #3 in the earlier section
3. Get behind your opponent (if you can) before it comes out
4. Just dodge it by jumping over it one at a time since there is space between each bolt if they are spamming
C. Thunder Spamming
1. Please refer to earlier post on tips against that on page 2!!!
2. But out of all I recommend the dash pivot canceling tips I gave
~ TerranRox
"What is MK's most difficult matchup(s)? Which characters have advantages over him?"
The Marth vs. Metaknight matchup is like the old Marth vs. Fox matchup in that they both can do some relatively nasty stuff against each other. However, this time, thanks to Marth being able to kill Metaknight at 40%, I'd say the matchup goes to 7-3 in Marth's favor.
~ Zephyr
From my knowledge the following characters can "Reliably" defeat MK if it was in that "hypothetical" situation:
1. Snake
2. MK dittos
3. Marth
but on the maybe side:
1. TL
2. Olimar
Marth is definitely a good counter especially if your opponent knows how to space to get the tip fx most of the time my local smash community's current best player is a Marth main (name is classified) with me right behind him...
In the most recent game we got quite close me at 86% and him at 16-%(forgot maybe 168%) He almost lost that time but the finishing attack that time was the tipped f- smash that got me good and even DI didnt save me...
Long story short Marth is a good counter since his speed is also impressive and almost all his attacks are deadly to MKs
(Hypothetically if this guy is as equally skilled as you)
For the most difficult matchup its practically what I put up earlier in this post
~ TerranRox
"1. G&W
2. Crazy good smashes/high-priority moves
3. Avoiding smashes, punishing laggy moves"
G&W was a hard matchup for me at first, but he got pretty easy after I figured out how he plays. They do like their dair -> up b -> dair -> up b pressure come, but all you have to do against that is memorize the spacing and stay just outside it with a charged d smash for punishment. The turtle (his back air) MUST be shielded. Your airdodge isn't long enough, and you'll regret trying it. You can also MT it, but neither Terran or I are sure whether MT outprioritizes the turtle. Shield his dairs for a free grab as well.
Now to your problem...smashes and high priority moves? Avoiding smashes is all you can really do against them. If you're having trouble with it, it's because you're not avoiding them or not avoiding them correctly. You can shield them, you can side dodge them, you can air dodge them (not recommended), you can jump over them, you can run away from them. You can also not get hit by them (highly recommended). Part of your problem might be that you're not pushing aggressively and applying lots of pressure. If you let a G&W run free, they can control the match. But they can't do that under pressure because they need room. Don't give them that room. Move in fast, go for the grabs and aerial combos and most importantly get them off the stage. If you control the match, your chances of winning skyrocket.
~ Zephyr
For info on how matchup help is going to work, use ctrl-f and find [matchups].
METANIGHT STYLES
Style 1 - The Offensive Metaknight
-----------------------------------------
What not to do:
1) Spam A. I know it’s fun, just don’t.
2.) Give your opponent time to think or breathe; you need him to do neither in order to be successful with an offensive MK.
3.) Shielding and air dodging are at a minimum. They are better things you could be doing.
What to do:
1.) Use Mach Tornado to throw your opponent off balance.
2.) Combo using repeated aerials, preferably offstage so as to get an off-the-side kill with a shuttle loop finish.
3.) Edgeguard offstage. A lot.
MK’s offense is incredibly effective when one goes about it the right way. However, if you’re just flailing blindly, you’ll find yourself skewered on the end of your opponent’s upsmash flying off the top of the screen. The goal with the offensive MK is to kill your opponent off quickly and efficiently, with as little fuss as possible. Use the mach tornado (here on out referred to as MT) whenever your opponent starts using projectiles to try and throw you off balance, it’ll both repel the projectiles (depending on the projectile) and earn you a little free %.
Dashing towards your opponent and doing a SHed aerial in his face can be surprisingly effective. When they’re shielding. I would suggest dashing past them and giving them a well-spaced bair so as to avoid punishment. Or just down-throwing them to an aerial combo to potential finisher via shuttle loop. Nair makes for a good attack when shielded due to its multiple hits.
Gliding in with a land-canceled glide attack to an aerial combo can also be effective. The aerial usually comes out to fast for the opponent to shield grab (if they did shield), so they’re stuck no matter what happens. That about sums it up for approaches with the short little demon.
After getting in range of your opponent through any of the various means available, you have a plethora of options available to you. You can take your opponent upwards with a chain of uairs or fair/dair chase him off the ledge. Your main goal at this point is to find a way to get your opponent off the ledge.
After getting him off the ledge, follow him with dairs or a reverse shuttle loop to finish him off. If they have a vertical recovery, drop below them and shuttle loop to both recover and spike them into the wall. If they tech, do it again. MK has so much potential offstage it’s not even funny. You can do anything, and all you have to do is occasionally return to the ledge to get your jumps back then go back to harassing your opponent to death. That’s about all I have to say on the offensive MK.
Now let's see what TerranRox has to say on the defensive and hybrid MK...
Lesson 2: Defensive Meta Knight
Part A: The Overview
To begin with, I would like to say that Meta Knight's best defense is his offense as useful as I know it sounds, but pardon me for saying and correct me if I'm wrong but that's majority of my overview. However, I can still give out a few tips for those people who have problems against spammers, n00bs, and seemingly impressive combos (there is technically no such thing as combos in brawl due to the new physics but you know what I mean). Mind that even though the current defensive Meta Knight section may seem lacking, but keep in mind that this is subject to change type of thread. (New techniques may come out, so who knows except for the almighty Ouija board)
Part B: Things To Do and Things Not To Do
Things Not to Do
1. In a projectile barrage situation, attempting to break (such as missiles) or try to dodge the projectiles using special attacks.
a. Simply "No" stop it.
b. If you think the mach tornado or the drill rush has a high enough priority to break a missile and return unscathed? Think again it will just explode in your face so no.
c. No, dimensional cape-ing will make you seem as if you disappear but for no apparent reason, you can still be hit by attacks, take damage, and suffer knock back. (One time my friend's F- Smash got me while I was in my disappearing stage then… Boom! Head Shot, and before I was knew it I was a stock short)
d. Shuttle Loop could work but it really depends on the distance between you and your foe, I also highly recommend saving your shuttle loop for a kill. (one term: Stale Move Negator)
2. Believe that Dimensional Cape is a counter/ defensive maneuver
a. It isn't one
b. Best used for edge guard, don't recommend it for much else
3. Neglect Shield (its stupid so don't)
Things To Do
1. Keep up the offense so you don't leave any space for them to go into offense
2. Keep your foe on the line and try to predict his tactics so you can create a counter measure
3. Simply try to get hit as little as you can.
4. Use shield techniques like the sliding shield
5. If worst comes to worst and you cant handle the heat use a finisher too early to put space between yourself and your foe (This is only to be used if your fingers are starting to cramp/ or get sweaty. Pausing will only mess up the pressure you built up, so spacing will give your hands a short break. Because the only thing that cannot be regained once earned is time.)
6. DI is the ultimate defense against all combos
Lesson 3: Hybrid Meta Knight
Part A: General Overview
Hopefully if you get good enough with the offense you don't have to apply to the defensive tips I gave. Since, it's hard for your foes to get into projectile barrage when your right at there faces applying pressure with a sword that swings to a speed that shatters the sound barrier. So the hybrid Meta Knight (fyi/ aka: the Meta Knight that applies both defense and offense constantly) is considerably second ranked compared to a Meta Knight user who has spectacular offense. Once again comment if you think I'm wrong.
Part B: Things To Do and Things Not to Do
Things Not to Do
1. Go mainly into a defensive Meta Knight strategy
2. Concentrate to hard on making an all around Meta Knight
Things To Do
1. Think aggressively
2. Always do SOMETHING (standing still is never the solution)
3. Be the MK constantly on offense
[matchups]
OK, so here's how matchups are going to work...you're going to make your posts in this format:
1. What character is the problem?
2. What is the problem?
3. What have you tried already to solve the problem?
We will answer your posts with a subsequent post as we are able. After enough questions have been answered, I'll go through the thread and make a compilation of all questions and answers and put it up right in this section for reference for anyone who needs matchup help so we don't end up having repeat questions.
That's it. Fire away.
"1. Snake
2. Shielded grenade strategy
3. Attacking, grabbing."
Well dont be so sure since knowing how to use gernades about 1/3 of the advanced thinking and strategies revolve around timing. I have played against pretty well experienced players and the grenade timing are definitely important to tactics. So this strategy can be implied from the view. However it seems from your description your friend is a tap then throw the the as soon as you can kind of strategy kind of person (if I'm wrong please post again and describe in deeper detail in his grenade style) if this is so then here is what I suggest:
1. Practice thrown item grabbing on the ground and aerial or in the grenade shielding case the item grabbing while performing a dash attack.
a. because its amusing to use your foes weapon against them
b.you'll definitely not only learn an incredibly useful skill but also became that much more dangerous
2. Dodge the grenade when thrown or wait out the 3 to 4 second timer on the grenade
3.Try that strategy from http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=171650 but faster
4. Or when he does the grenade shield do a grab if you know you can reach your foe within the 3-4 sec blow up time limit
5. If you mistakenly grab your opponent when the grenade starts to glow, your right go for the up grab since the down grab meat shield strategy does not work
6. If you want try something that not only looks cool and seem really awesome here is what you do "sliding grab" in the grenade shield predicament and make sure your at top speed to put the slide into maximum slide distance
a. in this case dont up grab
b. I recommend for first timers to go for the sliding down grab
c. for more experienced people slide grab them when your grenade count reaches the 1-2 second count on the grenade and then while still holding your opponent when the grenade starts to glow throw back so your opponent not only takes damage from your throw but also from his own grenade... humiliating to the opponent and make your MK bad *** seeming
~ TerranRox
"1. Snake.
2. Explosives (Mortar sliding, C4s, Prox. mines, and especially grenades), and his tilts.
3. Lots of grabs and throws."
I think I went through the whole grenade speech both stationary and thrown in my first advise so unless it's really special grenade strategy be specific and ask again. (Or you didnt read )
C4s what can I say but not go near them or not let them get onto your MK. If worst comes to worst make contact as soon as you can with your opponent(s) to pass on the C4 to turn it into a frantic game of hot potato. (Yes it is not only remote control activated but also timed)
The mines are different story since they are a double edged sword weapon of Snake.
#1 Whatever you do be particularly careful of not get getting grabbed or knocked back into the mine
#2 Get the opponent into their own mine try grabs but in this case particularly b grab since all the other grabs will make the opponent fly "over" the mine (f grab) or get yourself and your opponent into the mine and you both blow up (d grab and u grab (on another note this type of kamikaze grab is done by sliding grab))
But I can imagine this as a possible wtf response...
"What if I am positioned where when I b grab it sends them off the stage rather then blowing up my opponent on his own mine?"
My answer is this... I this situation you must learn how to the reverse grab... If you dont know what this is go to "compendium of advance techniques" or something along those lines of titles stickied on the Tactical Discussion boards for Brawl.
This move is very useful if you want to get the right grab out of the right situation and direction.
~ TerranRox
Mortar sliding...Shield it if your level with them. After shielding you can grab them. If they end up behind you, d-smash or nair out of shield. Or MT out of shield. You know, just to piss them off. If you're above, then dodge it and get level so you can approach via glide or some other approach method (which you should have ready).
C4. Learn the hitbox. Then abuse it. Feint in and out of its range to get them to try and detonate it, or go across from it so they either have to camp you (which you can easily counter) or run across to you to abuse their tilts (which are beaten by MT), thus rendering the C4 useless.
Proximity mines. I just avoid them and wait for them to forget it's there then get themselves owned. There are methods for knocking them into the mine, but they're both self-explanatory and very situational, so I won't mention them. Just don't hit it.
Grenades. Now these are fun. You can up-throw gimp them, you can catch the grenade and throw it back when the timer reaches one second or so. If they're sheild grenading, GTFO. You can't do anything, but increasing your distance forces them to drop the shield nade tactic. Just...whatever you do, DO NOT MT THESE. They'll explode inconsistently, meaning that sometimes they'll blow up and sometimes they won't. It's not worth the risk.
~ Zephyr
"1. Toon Link
2. Projectile camping
3. Attacking from above, Mach tornadoing when no bombs are present."
As we all know Toon Link and Link uses a variety of projectile weapons so in the future I humbly request which projectile your opponent Toon link uses.... But as a service I will tell all to almost every projectile spamming...
A. Bombs
As you may be aware the bombs are very much alike to snake's grenades except for one crucial thing: the timing for the bombs have a longer explosion time and for future reference I strongly recommend that you go into training mode and record how long it takes for the bomb to blow...
But when you mean by spam I assume your opponent is the time to keep pulling out bombs and throws the immediately so in this case I would refer to my earlier suggestions with snake's grenade problems:
"1. Practice thrown item grabbing on the ground and aerial or in the grenade shielding case the item grabbing while performing a dash attack.
a. because its amusing to use your foes weapon against them
b.you'll definitely not only learn an incredibly useful skill but also became that much more dangerous
2. Dodge the grenade when thrown"
However in this case DO NOT wait out the timer since it is longer then the grenade if you opponent likes to hold on to it like a kamikaze...
To turn this situation around though into an offensive opportunity I will refer to a suggestion made from another thread in my own words (gotta give credit):
When your running at the opponent and he/she unleashes a projectile keep running at them and until the projectile gets really close to you then side step to avoid the projectile and you'll perform a sliding side step dodge.
Now this is very good tip because the sliding momentum keeps you moving forward at your enemy but the side step will make you not take the damage or get knocked back from the projectile if it is timed right because side step gives you a few invincibility frames which is enough to avoid the in coming bomb.
If this does not work it most likely means the bomb didnt hit you but the bomb exploded ON THE GROUND in front of you and Toon Link's bomb explosion proximity hit boxes got you. If this is the case the merely dodge AWAY from the bomb if it is right right in front of you.
2. Arrows
I would go with my advice of running at them then slide side step since arrows are much easier to dodge and with a very predictable trajectory path
Or you dont even have to side step with the slide side step just a normal one since there isnt a exploding repercussion hit boxes on the arrow (fortunately... hehehe lol hax bomb arrows from the series)
or if you have the whimsy perform a clash with the arrow (perhaps the f- tilt)
3. Boomerang
Jump/ Glide over it
if he/ she angle the boomerang merely glide cancel and fast fall so it wont hit you because they fly at about a 45 degree angle. but when it comes back try not to get hit by it since for us MK users every % is worth a fortune to avoid this I recommends knocking the link vertically because when the boomerang comes back it follows him and if you dodged the initial throw by gliding over it go for the gliding slash
~ TerranRox
A comment on Toon Link's arrows...use mach tornado if given no other option. The priority will kill the arrows and you can take the opening in order to rush him with the rest of the tornado.
~ Zephyr
"1. Wolf
2. Laser camping followed by Fsmash when finally approached.
3. Gliding > Glide attack or SHAD to Dsmash."
I take it you're playing a lot online? Because this should never give anyone problems in real life. Ever.
However, I'm in the top 100 on GB and know what I'm doing against spammy Wolf's, so I can help you out. Gliding into a glide attack (or a glide cancel mindgame) can be effective, but you know what I find even more satisfying then that? Tornado the spamming losers. Now, you'll think at first, "But Zephyr, Wolf's lasers even beat tornado! I can't do anything!" Wrong. Get to the ledge, jump from the ledge and utilize the invincibility frames to get above the laser wall. Then tornado towards the laser spamming Wolf and follow their DI. It won't matter if they try to f-smash you because MT outprioritizes it. After throwing them off balance, proceed to pressure and ****.
~ Zephyr
"1. Pikachu
2. Dsmash spam if approached or dsmash out of thunder
3. Dtilt and trying to grab after attack... always end up hit by last frames..."
I'll do this one and speak of the devil Zephyr and I were recently discussing a technique that could come useful in this situation... It's called the dash pivot cancel (thanks to SamuraiPanda for discovering this move) well anyways if you friend is a predictable spammer liken how most are well you approach your friend just close enough so that your almost in range of the down smash (It has to be really close though but space enough to not get hit by it) and after you do the dash pivot cancel do a F Smash... But remember the dash pivot cancel is kind of like a emergency brake with a follow up so... perhaps this can also be applied as the anti thunder technique...(If you dont know how it's done or looks SamuraiPanda has a video on that on youtube)
But then again there is always that chance of you being hit by one anyways, but there was also something about that mentioned in ep 36 of SMYN that I tested and was true... simply tilt the analogue stick up and you'll just come out of it not taking on the maximum damage of the D- smash
If you dont think you can handle my tips then yeah... dont approach him/her she will get bored some day and come after you...
but then If you get bored first (lol the waiting game) Walk towards her. When at the most possible range limit, d tilt her until she trips then do what you do except note try using attacks with horizontal knockback ... since the thunder is a completely verticle and so the thunder cant punish you.
Even if you did try D- Tilt did you space far enough? That could be the reason why it failed...
~ TerranRox
"1. DK
2. Overall Matchup
3. Being a good MK player"
DK is an interesting matchup, to be sure. You have to stay aggressive, but you also have to be careful of his numerous methods of getting you off him. As long as you keep the aerial and throw combos coming, along with up b combos and d smash out of shield, you shouldn't have very much trouble. And honestly, if the DK is so good with DI that he survives up to 180 or so, I just up throw kill him. If you hit with the back end and tipper with your dsmash, you can take him out with relative ease. The same goes for edgeguarding. If you knock him offstage, go offstage with him and dair, then pressure him to use up b. If he does, there's a chance that he'll have up b'd too soon to recover properly. Also, just get him downwards offstage. That murders DK's otherwise decent recovery.
Hope that helps people with DK trouble.
Also, don't get hit by his F-smash. Ever. It kills puppies. And MK's.
~ Zephyr
"1. D3
2. CG's and annoying projectiles
3. what i ever i do i get own"
IRL, yes, DDD is pretty easy to beat. With lag online, though, his Waddle Dees are a real ***** to have to deal with.
Also, speed doesn't counter projectiles. It's best if you just shield DDD's projectiles, because you don't want to chance failing to dodge and getting hit by a Gordo.
~ Zephyr
"1. Falco
2. CG's and annoying projectiles
3. what i ever i do i get own"
On Falco, his lasers are easier to deal with than Wolf. It's much the same strategy that you use with Wolf: Tornado above the lasers, hit him with it, then proceed to pressure. He'll start to panic and maybe make mistakes as he tries to get you off him. Once he gets away, rinse and repeat. Dsmash or up b for the ko.
~ Zephyr
"1. ROB
2. Lasers, Gyro and Campy Rob
3. How do I approach and out-aerial him?"
Duck under his lasers...no, really, duck under them. XD
Once you do this, use whatever aerials you feel are necessary. D-throw is especially effective. Make sure to edge-guard VERY aggressively against this guy, he won't go down without a fight. A very, very long fight.
~ Zephyr
Zephyr got it pretty good I noticed that the ducking works really well...
mind that this refers to even ground if your even slightly more elevated ground to the laser -ing Rob you will get hit... aside from that unless it angles the laser and your right next to it you wont get hit
and as for the gyro yeah shield it and throw it back but be careful picking it up since it should still be revolving and you could take damage... (remember fellow MKers every percent counts)
~ TerranRox
"how do i fight against diddy,
diddy's bananas are hard cause when i run toward them i either slip or he throws them at me, and when i block he has 2 so he throws another one right after leading into a dash combo"
1. SH over the bananas
2. Running Attack grab the bananas (tap a while performing the attack)
3. If he throws the bananas refer to earlier post about running and the side stepping...
~ TerranRox
He can't combo you with bananas if you're airborne. -_- Also, if both bananas are on the ground, you can MT over them to approach. You can also set the bananas yourself to distract him momentarily and take the opportunity to put pressure on him. Everyone has a breaking point.
~ Zephyr
"Recently my hard match up was against a person that plays Pit really well. He plays so defensive, and he plays a huge pressure game against me, constantly shooting projectiles, which sets me up for combos. I tried playing the pressure game back, but since MK doesnt have a projectile its not easy. And he always manage to seem to get out of mach tornado, or he would punish me for using it by using his f-smash against the tornado, and it would out prioritize it... then he learned how to escape my drill rush approach, by attacking from the air. This guy played Pit like a pro. Any tips for going against a really good Pit?"
Seems like the guy you're having trouble with knows his stuff. Here's a hint for Mach Tornado approach: When you mash B with wild abandon, it'll be much easier for them to DI out of it. However, if you space your B presses such that you're pressing B as little as possible yet still getting full tornado length, it will be much harder for them to DI out. Also, try and anticipate which way he'll DI, then DI the tornado that direction. His Fsmash shouldn't outprioritize your mach tornado, try hitting him with different portions of it. I've never had a Pit's fsmash break my tornado before, they always do nothing against it.
Grab him whenever possible, because doing that will take all the pressure he's built up off you, and that leaves you an opportunity to turn the tables on him. I personally only use drill rush as a get-off-me tool or when my opponent catches on to my styles. Again, unpredictability is key in this game. You're going to have to kill him either up with u-tilt/smash or to the side with up b, dsmash or fsmash because his recovery is just too good for even MK to edgeguard effectively. However, if you do manage to get him below the stage, try and spike him into the stage with an up b or just keep him down there as long as possible so as to rack up damage for a vertical or horizontal ko later on.
When approaching with mach tornado (you'll find that you'll be doing this often against Pit), predict his f-smash and make it so that the fsmash hits the tornado, not you. It shouldn't do anything. That's really all I can say.
Hope that helps. ^^
~ Zephyr
"1. Pit
2. He's really good.
3. I'm not good enough." (this is paraphrased, obviously)
For this request I really can't put my insight in this topic because I have yet to play against really skilled Pit user... however I played an armies worth of novice Pit users and they always do the "Nenenenenene" and arrows so I could give an advice on those points...
For "Nenenenenene" attack:
1. Get behind the Pit... while assuming you know your MK well, I expect you are always close to your opponent (close range MK offense = XD)
this is an easy enough task if you know how to role, jump, etc...
and the ending animation for the "Nenenene" takes a while (to me and I hope you) and you can counter attack your opponent
2. Just dont go near it will stay in one place, so eventually your opponent will realize how stupid it is to continue an attack thats not meeting its mark and not even for projectile reflecting uses since well... MK does not have projectiles...
The arrows
1. refer to my earlier post on running and slide sidestepping and slide shielding. It must be performed at the right time at the right moment
(It works but the timing must be mastered)
~ TerranRox
"What would you think be a good counter stage against Pit, but would benefit Metaknight? The Star Fox stages I would guess. Corneria and Lylat. What are your thoughts?"
Smaller stages with ledges. Smashville and lylat would be great. Pit doesnt have anything on MK when it comes to an offensive game. Keeping a consistent pressure game on a small stage will get them off the edge easy where Pit can be gimped fairly easily.
~ Dojo
"1. Pikachu
2. Projectile spamming/thunder spamming
3. Glide->glide attack/hopping over his little thunder bolts into an aerial/Mach Tornado at times."
By projectile spamming I assume you mean his neutral special attack, if not then by all means post again and be more specific)
One again due to lack of details I will make this quite long.
In this section I will divide my tips into 2 section A will be the neutral special attack performed in air and B will be tips for the attack if its performed onthe ground...
A. Pikachu's neutral special performed in the air
1. Short background: As we all know Pikachu's neutral special is much more powerful yet slower then it's ground hopping counter part reasons include
a. Does more damage
b. Has greater knock back
However the trade for the more powerful attack is that the speed of the attack is slower
2. Tips:
1. First of we know that the attack is slow so that will be our advantage
2. Now general tips against this is...
a. Dodge the attack it is fairly easy enough but in this case it will most likely be a air dodge since the attack is coming from the air towards
b. Dont try to clash with this even with the MT since Pikachu's electricity also has a high priority (due to the electricity's trait) so you can lose and end up taking the damage. (remember MK needs all his percents)
c. Space yourself between the slow flying little balls of electricity so it can not hit you place yourself in a location that is not in its path including it path were after it hit the ground and starts jumping
3. If your opponent is camping and doing so the do the dashing and slide sidestepping I explained in earlier posts so you can still advance on your opponent and not taking any damage (remember it WILL work but the timing depends on you so that it WILL work)
B. The neutral special on the ground
1. Short back ground: Its faster done on the ground then the air, but weaker also it moves in a overly predictable path
2. In this case go for my advise #3 in the earlier section
3. Get behind your opponent (if you can) before it comes out
4. Just dodge it by jumping over it one at a time since there is space between each bolt if they are spamming
C. Thunder Spamming
1. Please refer to earlier post on tips against that on page 2!!!
2. But out of all I recommend the dash pivot canceling tips I gave
~ TerranRox
"What is MK's most difficult matchup(s)? Which characters have advantages over him?"
The Marth vs. Metaknight matchup is like the old Marth vs. Fox matchup in that they both can do some relatively nasty stuff against each other. However, this time, thanks to Marth being able to kill Metaknight at 40%, I'd say the matchup goes to 7-3 in Marth's favor.
~ Zephyr
From my knowledge the following characters can "Reliably" defeat MK if it was in that "hypothetical" situation:
1. Snake
2. MK dittos
3. Marth
but on the maybe side:
1. TL
2. Olimar
Marth is definitely a good counter especially if your opponent knows how to space to get the tip fx most of the time my local smash community's current best player is a Marth main (name is classified) with me right behind him...
In the most recent game we got quite close me at 86% and him at 16-%(forgot maybe 168%) He almost lost that time but the finishing attack that time was the tipped f- smash that got me good and even DI didnt save me...
Long story short Marth is a good counter since his speed is also impressive and almost all his attacks are deadly to MKs
(Hypothetically if this guy is as equally skilled as you)
For the most difficult matchup its practically what I put up earlier in this post
~ TerranRox
"1. G&W
2. Crazy good smashes/high-priority moves
3. Avoiding smashes, punishing laggy moves"
G&W was a hard matchup for me at first, but he got pretty easy after I figured out how he plays. They do like their dair -> up b -> dair -> up b pressure come, but all you have to do against that is memorize the spacing and stay just outside it with a charged d smash for punishment. The turtle (his back air) MUST be shielded. Your airdodge isn't long enough, and you'll regret trying it. You can also MT it, but neither Terran or I are sure whether MT outprioritizes the turtle. Shield his dairs for a free grab as well.
Now to your problem...smashes and high priority moves? Avoiding smashes is all you can really do against them. If you're having trouble with it, it's because you're not avoiding them or not avoiding them correctly. You can shield them, you can side dodge them, you can air dodge them (not recommended), you can jump over them, you can run away from them. You can also not get hit by them (highly recommended). Part of your problem might be that you're not pushing aggressively and applying lots of pressure. If you let a G&W run free, they can control the match. But they can't do that under pressure because they need room. Don't give them that room. Move in fast, go for the grabs and aerial combos and most importantly get them off the stage. If you control the match, your chances of winning skyrocket.
~ Zephyr
)
