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Character Competitive Impressions

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A2ZOMG

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Link isn't bad at all this time around. He really does feel like a semi PM Link just not as strong as he is there.
I said *almost every* Smash game.

Though Link ain't exactly impressive. And I blame it mostly on having mediocre grab reward. I mean, I stated a few pages ago. Half of what makes ZSS so scary is she gets nearly free followups on D-throw, result of superior positional advantage and better physics. Whereas with Link, you're lucky to get B-air at low percents with D-throw, and I'm not even sure even that's guaranteed.
 
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Arcrandom

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I have pretty much been playing for glory since I unlocked everyone for hours each day, and I am wondering how successful characters in that mode will transition to competitive play.

Mac is very strong (yeah bad recovery, but Marth fought past that for years) but is his strength coming from being only in FD forms of the stages? His platform game is pretty bad.

ZSS is strong, and I think competitively viable. We may find out later she is countered by some true hight tier character, but for now she is very strong and we will probably see a ton of her.

Duck hunt, and Rosalina are the last two I want to talk about. They are zoning Gods but lack the ability to fight off characters with strong sticking power on FD stages. They feel strong to play, my friends and I are successful with them, but they may not be seen as often online, but when a competitive stage list comes we may see some amazing players picking these two up.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Except Marth's recovery isn't that bad. In fact, it's never been anywhere near as bad as what Mac's is. Mac is straight up fodder for low percentage gimps.

Doesn't make him terrible or underrated or whatever. That's just a fact.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Nitros14

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I've played 287 for glory 1v1's as Bowser now.

I don't think he's going to be all that great. He struggles against campy characters and while he's not too slow he has a ton of end lag on most of his moves. Once people learn his timings he's in trouble. Klaw has a shorter range and is a lot less effective in general at grabbing people in midair. Fire breath got less laggy but does a lot less damage than Brawl. Down smash got nerfed, forward smash kills early and all but is really telegraphed. Fortress out of shield isn't quite as good as it was. Dair is really punishable so once people realize it exists it tends to not work.

On the plus side fair has better range and bair kills early, but uair got nerfed in return. Ftilt kills earlier so that's nice. Dash attack is greatly improved.

I think he'll be higher than Brawl, mid, mid-low.

I found against most people I would destroy them in the first match or two then they'd catch on and I'd start to lose.
 
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Luco

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I think the duck hunt duo could be really, really fun. It's looking like they have some crazy disjointed hitboxes and quite a lot of their stuff feels reasonably safe on block (or is that just me?). They have a mediocre recovery but their actual air game doesn't seem too bad at all. Looking forward to seeing more of them, too.
 

Eji1700

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So first off NOT A TIER LIST. i'm making a list here to sort of compile opinions i've read and try and make a more concise view of the last 15 or so pages(of which i'm mostly only skimmed, so please point out any outright errors or disagreements).

With that said, here's what I have taken from this:

Probably Viable, in short, characters who i've seen everyone quite happy with or playing a ton with no "but they may be killed by X"
Shiek
ZSS
Greninja
Fox

Potential, but might have matchup/mechanics issues, basically anyone you'd be willing to attempt a tourney at, even as a secondary/counterpick-
Bowser
Marth
Lucina
Robin
Lilmac
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Rob
DHD
Ness
Captain Falcon
Diddy
Link
Toon Link
Samus
Villager
Olimar


May have legit issues, possibly fundamentally flawed or so hard countered you don't actually think they'd be viable vs real competition-
Zelda- i see bad things, i hear bad things, and down B doesn't seem to be quite enough?
Gannondorf- Buffed for sure, but maybe not enough?
Ike- Ditto


Complicated, may need more time due to playstyle, characters who I feel the jury is just out on because its going to take more time to fully explore their playstyle-

Yoshi- has always had some tech stuff, and seems to be the center of a couple of WTF glitches of dubious use. Looking good so far?

Rosilinia- puppet characters tend to be like this

Palutina- zoner with a unique style(and will be the most effected by custom moves being allowed). not looking good so far

Megaman- similar to palutina, with maybe a little more hope.

Shulk- i've seen everyone say "here's good stuff, here's bad stuff, i've no idea"

No clue(personal guess)-
Mario(Potential)
Luigi(Potential)
Peach(Potential)
Wario(Potential)
G&W(Potential)
DK(Potential)
Pit(issues)
Kriby(Potential)
DDD(issues)
Metaknight(Potential)
Falco(issues)
Pikachu(Potential)
Charazard(Potential)
WFT(Potential)
Dr. Mario(Potential)
Dark Pit(issues)
Pac Man(Potential)
Sonic(Potential)
Brawler(issues)
Sword fighter(issues)
Gunner(issues)

Of note, the mii's are already dealing with issues about custom movesets(which personally, i see no reason to not include as of yet), and i'm placing these based on "neutral height neutral weight, no equips". That said, they might just be a mess(sword seems the worst) but I could maybe see them as a counterpick in some matchups or a win in a smaller tourney for a main.

Again though, 1. THIS IS NOT A TIER LIST.
I'm merely trying to narrow down the large amount of scattered info we've got so far so people like me know what to start looking into. Tournaments will settle tiers lists, this is literally just to figure out "who's a real mess?"

2. I expect people to disagree a lot. I've only been able to glance through everything and compare my own notes. By all means disagree, just give a reason, even if i missed something stupid obvious.
 

A2ZOMG

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The Zelda boards can complain all they like about their character nerfs while ignoring that Zelda basically had her three biggest problems addressed (bad recovery, bad grab, and bad options to chase landings at long range) and was nerfed considerably less than most of the cast, which overall lost more damage than she did. Character is probably mid tierish viable, though she struggles against rushdown that can ignore her footsies.
 
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ZSS is strong, and I think competitively viable. We may find out later she is countered by some true hight tier character, but for now she is very strong and we will probably see a ton of her.
I don't know man. She doesn't really have any of the traditional smash weaknesses anymore. Her shield grab is bad against some faster attacks but it's made up for by the fact that it isn't really reactable anymore at range + up-b out of shield is hilarious. The old weakness of holding shield against ZSS doesn't work anymore because she has multiple attacks that are + on block. Her paralyzer traps are outright disgusting now. If you shield a paralyzer you get grabbed. She has some of the best, most versatile recovery in the game; if there's a character that punishes her hard for down b and tethers she can fall back to her more traditional up-b, which must be respected. She can kill early, too, although it is true that if you play a bit campy it can be hard to let her set it up.

All she lost from Brawl is some of her max punish damage, but tbh it doesn't matter that much. I think ZSS is top 5, if not top 3. Salem's playstyle will transfer really well to the new game, so hopefully he'll show her off a little some time soon.

As for match-ups I've only had any trouble with Diddy Kong and I think like Brawl that will get easier with time.
 
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Luco

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Well my region's already having discussions about how the mii fighters will look over here. I think the likely course of action will be that they're banned due to the variable nature of their stats, weight, height etc, but we don't know at this point tbh just yet.
 

epicgordan

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Man, does it suck not having any recording software to show this off.

Sonic is pretty amazing when it comes to edge guarding. His new DSmash is particularly effective in pushing opponents off the stage following their second jump, though only if they are a certain height from below the stage, and timed perfectly. Depending on what their recovery may be, they may or may not be able to make it back. It's fairly difficult to pull off, but you can get some cheap, early kills off the likes of Mario, Luigi, Peach, and a number of others lacking great distance or a horizontally focused recovery that way.

How to do it? Simple jabs, a forward smash, and down tilt are all preferable tactics to set up the edge guard. Don't bother with his dash attack or any of his specials; there's too much ending lag with the latter, and too much vertical knockback for the former for either to be effective.

I thought I'd share this info with you guys in order to help determine if there is any effectiveness in such a meta game. I think there is, but it ultimately depends on who Sonic is up against. If this tactic proves cheap enough, it would definitely help his meta game immensely, and it's already looking pretty fine as is.

A few others I noticed? Mario is fairly balanced and in spite of that edge guard setup I discovered while playing as Sonic (I managed to kill Mario when he was merely in the 20% range with this tactic for crying out loud), Mario also appears to have quite a few tactics designed to control the field against Sonic, particularly with his neutral and side specials. Granted, it's not a terribly advantageous setup since Sonic's gameplan is designed to stall out an exploit openings quickly and effectively, while evading traps and setups from other characters; that gameplan was what got Sonic out of the gutter in Brawl, and now his buffs actually make him useful in delivering kills for once. In other words, Mario and Sonic appear to have an even matchup once again (though if anything, it'd suggest that both characters are competitively viable.

Luigi has some decent priority moves but other than that, he lacks kill options substantially, unless of course you decide to apply his infamous down taunt spike and the sweet spot in his recovery as decent kill options, and even then, I only applied the latter once or twice, with the former not at all. The nerfs in his power and knockback in addition to the larger blast zones have made him an almost completely useless character once again. Even his custom moves can't save him.

Bowser has quite a bit of startup and end lag in his moves. Granted, he's a good character, but I think at best, he's looking at somewhere near the bottom of the high tier list. Same with Little Mac, though to be fair, at least Little Mac has some pretty hard counters against some competitively viable characters still; lightweights, brawlers, and in particular, Rosalina, are all pretty weak against him. However, Pit and Dark Pit have huge advantages against him as well.

At the end of the day, tier lists are going to be a lot tougher to figure out--especially after custom moves are taken into consideration. With that said, here's what I think the tier list might--MIGHT--actually look like:

Top Tier (4): :4sheik::4greninja::rosalina::4zss:
High Tier (6): :4sonic::4miibrawl::4littlemac::4lucario::4bowser::4villager:
High-Mid Tier (8): :4yoshi::4metaknight::4pacman::4palutena::4samus::4miigun::4bowserjr::4shulk:
Mid Tier (14): :4dedede::4fox::4pikachu::4lucina::4darkpit::4pit::4mario::4tlink::4duckhunt::4diddy::4ness::4wario::4rob::4kirby:
Mid-Low Tier (10): :4marth::4peach::4robinm::4link::4charizard::4falcon::4jigglypuff::4dk::4drmario::4wiifit:
Low Tier (6): :4miisword::4gaw::4zelda::4megaman::4ganondorf::4myfriends:
Bottom Tier (3): :4luigi::4falco::4olimar:
 
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Jesus christ, this game has too many characters

Also I think this game is fair bit more balanced than past games (and is easily comparable to brawl tbh), and I think calling any character "bottom tier" is a little misleading

The worst characters in Smash 4 are no worse than characters like Brawl Pit or Wolf, probably better since (so far) they aren't getting infinite'd all over the place
 
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Luco

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Jesus christ, this game has too many characters

Also I think this game is fair bit more balanced than past games (and is easily comparable to brawl tbh), and I think calling any character "bottom tier" is a little misleading

The worst characters in Smash 4 are no worse than characters like Brawl Pit or Wolf, probably better since (so far) they aren't getting infinite'd all over the place
Yeah I totally agree, most of the characters seem like they'll be competitively viable unless some game-breaking technique comes in that stomps all over a bunch of peeps. :p
 

Thalassa

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Being straightfoward doesn't necessarily make you bad. Look at Fei Long in SSF4 AE. Character really only has one game plan and barely has mixups outside of counterhits and the occasional command grab. Top tier character.

Look at Link in almost every Smash game. Intricate game plan that has a lot of ATs and cool tricks and setups. Bottom tier.

And what Emblem Lord said.
I didn't say he was bad and if I did I would be quite heavily in denial, but I believe he is like Snake in that he will drop in tiers as other characters evolve faster than him (At least that's what happened to Snake in my understanding) but he'll never actually be bad, just less complex.
 

mountain_tiger

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A lot of people are really, really underestimating WFT.

Yeah, she has super obvious flaws (awful grab range, range issues in general etc.) but once you adapt to her play style (which admittedly isn't the ~easiest~ of tasks), she's got some pretty solid stuff going for her. Her aerials are really good for pressuring and edgeguarding, and her Header is pretty low-risk. And then there's Sun Salutation... :D

Also, crouching under basically anything and immediately countering with DTilt is too good. :p I can honestly see WFT being a decent upper mid tier a few months down the line.
 

Thinkaman

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I agree with SFP's sentiment. I think the worst character (keep in mind it's barely Day 4) is Zelda, Kirby, DDD, or Charizard, and all of those seem more than formidable. They would be mid-tiers in Brawl, with the same deviation from the rest of the Smash 4 cast!

*****

I am winning most with Ganondorf. He seems really solid. The projectile nerfs helped him way more than extra hitstun hurts him; Wizard's Dropkick beats most projectiles and is a vast improvement for high-level 1v1 play.

Little Mac is Ganondorf Turbo edition. Sure, he'll drop in success and usage outside of the 3DS's laggy environment, but I doubt he'll end up low tier or anything.

I can see Shulk ending up at the bottom, but we'll see. Robin also continues to underwhelm; he's a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. I expect Robin and Shulk to be consistently unimpressive outside of dedicated mains. I'm unconvinced that the payoff is worth it in either case.

I continue to be surprised how much DDD changed, though it doesn't seem for the better. I miss that bair...

WFT is bizzare. I really want to play her, but the poor range is such a steep cost. (Especially on grabs and f-tilt...) It's going to take a completely different mentality... Also of note: She might be the only character in the game where every custom special option is competitively legitimate, imo.

I think Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, DK, Link, Zelda, and Ness are easily better than they've ever been.
 

Shaya

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Marth with custom specials (dash breaker in particular) is feeling pretty high tier right now, maybe even top. I'm suddenly very very enthused about the game again and see me doing very well with him.

There's something about a half final destination length transcended priority HITBOXES EVERYWHERE sword attack that just makes a character (ANY CHARACTER) really really good. I think he may struggle with rushdown and characters with potent range and counters (it doesn't let him escape or get out of combos or anything), but camping/running away from Marth feels... worthless.
 
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Funtroon

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Is there a character that is completely not viable? So far, it looks like the game is pretty balanced. Character discussions remind me a lot of Tekken Tag 2. While there are strong characters, it seems like every character has a potential to be used in a tournament setting. Again, this is only from what I've been reading in this thread and other threads in the competitive forums.
 

Luco

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Marth with custom specials (dash breaker in particular) is feeling pretty high tier right now, maybe even top. I'm suddenly very very enthused about the game again and see me doing very well with him.

There's something about a half final destination length transcended priority HITBOXES EVERYWHERE sword attack that just makes a character (ANY CHARACTER) really really good. I think he may struggle with rushdown and characters with potent range and counters (it doesn't let him escape or get out of combos or anything), but camping/running away from Marth feels... worthless.
Damn you Shaya... Damn you... :p
 

Thinkaman

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Marth with custom specials (dash breaker in particular) is feeling pretty high tier right now, maybe even top. I'm suddenly very very enthused about the game again and see me doing very well with him.

There's something about a half final destination length transcended priority HITBOXES EVERYWHERE sword attack that just makes a character (ANY CHARACTER) really really good. I think he may struggle with rushdown and characters with potent range and counters (it doesn't let him escape or get out of combos or anything), but camping/running away from Marth feels... worthless.
There really is a shocking number of anti-camp custom moves.
 

Torn_Smash

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I agree with SFP's sentiment. I think the worst character (keep in mind it's barely Day 4) is Zelda, Kirby, DDD, or Charizard, and all of those seem more than formidable. They would be mid-tiers in Brawl, with the same deviation from the rest of the Smash 4 cast!
I love that the whole cast seems to be formidable on their own, but what excites me even more is custom moves. Custom moves can only make characters stronger, which I believe will allow any character to be played on a competitive level. In addition, if rulesets allowed people to change their custom moves during a set, then there could also be counter pick opportunities such as picking anti-camping custom moves vs. a camping opponent (much to the dismay of Rosalinas ;_; )

Now the fear is that a character that is already powerful (such as ZSS) will become OP with custom moves, but I think this risk will be outweighed by the benefit of custom moves improving less favorable characters.

What a time to be alive
 

Meru.

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Now the fear is that a character that is already powerful (such as ZSS) will become OP with custom moves, but I think this risk will be outweighed by the benefit of custom moves improving less favorable characters.
I have never really understood this train of thought. How are custom moves going to improve less favorable characters? First of all, specials are only four out of the many moves a character has. Even outside of specials, top tier characters usually possess extraordinary normals, smashes and/or aerials on which they can rely. These moves cannot be changed. Second, it's great that worse characters can be strengthened by equipping the right custom moves, but stronger characters have custom moves too. They can improve just like the weaker characters can, so even though both characters may be stronger in the end, the gap will remain similar. Sure, you may have a case where a weaker character decreases his disadvantage with a custom move that works remarkably effective against a stronger character, but the reverse might just as well happen. A stronger character may also increase his advantage against a weaker character if they happen to have a very effective custom move.
 
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Thinkaman

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It's far more likely that bad characters have bad default specials that can be improved, and that good characters have good default specials with little room for improvement.

We see this to be the case in practice. ZSS, and Sheik seem like great characters, but none of their custom specials are a marked improvement. After all, it's hard to improve much on what are already great moves.

Now consider Samus, Ike, and Ganondorf. Their specials are designed for FFAs and are pretty poor in 1v1, some almost unusable. But if you look at their custom options, it's a huge improvement! 2232 on Samus, 2222 on Ike, and 2322 on Ganon give the characters a far more robust moveset for competitive 1v1 play.

*****

Basically, if I let you reroll dice, it helps you more if your first roll was bad. It does you no good if your first roll was good.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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I continue to be surprised how much DDD changed, though it doesn't seem for the better. I miss that bair...
New bair has okayish start-up (may be worse than I'm imagining, so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), horrendous recovery, but the looooooooong ass duration of the active frames and the huge disjointed hitbox make it really good for spacing aerially lower to the ground and for air-to-air engagements. The biggest drawback to the move is the recovery. If you don't space it properly and you whiff it, you're probably gonna get punished. It's also a huge gamble to fastfall it, or hit somebody's shield with it. The timing is pretty strict in order to make the move safe; as in, Dedede should finish the animation before he hits the ground. Hitting somebody with the bair at lower percents can lead to a follow-up, and at higher percents fresh it can net you a KO. I think it works out to about "meh." Granted it's nowhere near as versatile as Brawl bair, but it has its uses.

Gordos and the new dtilt are godsends, though. Gordos give Dedede interesting mixups. You can feasibly work crossups and staggering shield pressure with them. I've seen (and executed) some pretty interesting situations, winnowing opponents' options down upon approach (gotta be wary of people mashing and bopping you with your own Gordo, tho). Also, cool thing about dtilt is that the recovery time is kinda low, so I can opt in or out of pressuring someone or follow up as long as I'm cognizant of my spacing. Dtilt is also a hilarious edgeguard.

Ftilt is meaty as ever, good for stuffing careless approaches, poking through shields, and botched techs. Jab is still good, especially the opening one-two combination which can be linked into dtilt. The second hit of the jab also acts as a gimmicky, situational anti-air option.

tl;dr I'm really liking Dedede so far. He may not be great, but he's already perfect. :troll:

Smooth Criminal
 
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A2ZOMG

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I agree with SFP's sentiment. I think the worst character (keep in mind it's barely Day 4) is Zelda, Kirby, DDD, or Charizard, and all of those seem more than formidable. They would be mid-tiers in Brawl, with the same deviation from the rest of the Smash 4 cast!

*****

I am winning most with Ganondorf. He seems really solid. The projectile nerfs helped him way more than extra hitstun hurts him; Wizard's Dropkick beats most projectiles and is a vast improvement for high-level 1v1 play.

Little Mac is Ganondorf Turbo edition. Sure, he'll drop in success and usage outside of the 3DS's laggy environment, but I doubt he'll end up low tier or anything.

I can see Shulk ending up at the bottom, but we'll see. Robin also continues to underwhelm; he's a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none. I expect Robin and Shulk to be consistently unimpressive outside of dedicated mains. I'm unconvinced that the payoff is worth it in either case.

I continue to be surprised how much DDD changed, though it doesn't seem for the better. I miss that bair...

WFT is bizzare. I really want to play her, but the poor range is such a steep cost. (Especially on grabs and f-tilt...) It's going to take a completely different mentality... Also of note: She might be the only character in the game where every custom special option is competitively legitimate, imo.

I think Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, DK, Link, Zelda, and Ness are easily better than they've ever been.
Zelda as I've stated I feel actually is reasonably solid in this game. She isn't helped a lot by customs, but her default specials are mostly pretty useful. Zelda has a very strong ability to get out of bad situations with her Up-B, which aside from being a great recovery move in this game also can be used as a punish for KOs at long range making Zelda amazing during land trap situations. She also has other great tools like her grab, Jab, D-tilt, and Naryus which make her quite competitive in footsies. And she hits pretty hard, almost as hard as Ganon on several of her moves. So basically, Zelda survives pretty long, and punishes hard, and while her ground mobility is low, her normals are great in footsies.

I honestly don't see how Little Mac will do worse on the Wii-U. The fundamentals of his game are pretty much extremely reactive and hinge on conservative spacing. If anything, laggy environments aren't exactly his friend, when it's more difficult to space correctly and play footsies during lag.

Shulk I feel has the same problems as Ike, minus he has Monado Arts Speed and Jump to help him get around zoning as well as get him in position to capitalize on people in bad positions. Moveset otherwise is underwhelming in neutral.

You think WFT's lack of range is a problem? How do you think I feel about poor range in Super Footsie Bros for the 3DS/Wii-U when I look at my old main Mario? In Mario's case, the balance team succeeded in making his recovery noticeably worse, Caping projectiles more strict, removing Jab cancels from him and most characters besides Yoshi, and not seriously making his combo game more reliable while still slapping him with the universal damage nerfs. Mario is bottom 5 in this game on default settings, easy. Yes customs help him a decent amount, I won't argue against that.
 

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When wii u version drops little macs gameplay will be far more refined. More spaced ftilts and dtilts. Less randomness. Scary for everyone who isnt ness or sheik
 

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I'll throw out a barely educated rough positioning of where I think the characters are.

Characters not in order within tiers, just rough observations on where they kinda lay currently maybe, kinda, who knows this game is freaking 5ish days old globally.

Top: :rosalina::4greninja::4zss:
High: :4sheik::4sonic::4yoshi::4lucario:
High-Mid: :4jigglypuff::4miigun::4miibrawl::4duckhunt::4littlemac::4fox::4bowser:
Mid: :4bowserjr::4falcon::4darkpit::4pit::4dedede::4diddy::4dk::4falco::4kirby::4link::4lucina::4marth::4olimar::4peach::4pikachu::4rob::4robinm::4tlink::4wario::4pacman:
Low-Mid: :4myfriends::4mario::4drmario::4metaknight::4samus::4wiifit::4gaw::4ness:
Low: :4luigi::4zelda::4miisword::4charizard::4villager:
Bottom: :4palutena::4ganondorf:

To me at least, it looks like you need a combination of a great combo game, and then an addition of either great speed or great stage control in order to be in the top area. Lucario is kinda an exception in that regard, but with how his aura works now I'd say he's an exception with good reason.

Off stage game is pretty important now as well with the new ledge mechanics. Can't just try to edgehog anymore, you actually have to be able to go out and touch them. If you can't do that, you need to have an amazing punish game.

I am expecting some (to me) obvious changes over time. I'm expecting Bowser will probably drop a level over time, Ike will go up one. Charizard and Villager I can both see maybe going up one rung. Maybe Wii Fit Trainer as well, she does have that amazing air dodge, but is obviously going to take time to get used to. Both Mii Gunner and Mii Fighter I could see dropping once people are more used to them, particularly Gunner and his struggle to KO at times.

A small part of me thinks that once we look at characters within the tiers themselves, Lucina might end up higher than Marth, depending on how the metagame develops. Unlikely, but I do feel that Lucina overall has a faster playing style, and that speed is particularly important. It will really depend on how large the emphasis on speed is.
 

Nidtendofreak

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I wasn't talking frame data, I was referring more to need to space attacks or not. If you don't need to space as precisely, you can play more aggressively and thus have a faster game, even if the frame data is the same.
 
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A2ZOMG

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I wasn't talking frame data, I was referring more to need to space attacks or not. If you don't need to space as precisely, you can play more aggressively and thus have a faster game, even if the frame data is the same.
That's the wrong way to look at spacing.

MARTH has better aggression than Lucina, because when HE'S calling the shots, he gets more reward for it. It is assumed when you are the one being aggressive and thus controlling the pace of the game, you are the one who has the advantage in spacing.

Lucina has a more consistent defensive game than Marth, because even if she is rushed down, her damage remains consistent. However she is rewarded less for well-executed aggressive plays.

It is a mistake to play either character as rushdown without taking advantage of the long range on their attacks. Marth's superior reward for abusing his range when controlling space thus makes his offense clearly better.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Fair enough, though I still feel that Lucina at least can play a faster aggressive game, if less rewarding per hit assuming perfect playing on both sides including both the attacker and defender. If both sides are at top level, neither side are going to get perfect spacing 100% of the time: for the hits that Marth is able to space perfectly he obviously does more, but whenever the defender manages to do something so the spacing is imperfect Lucina comes out ahead. Both are on even grounds if the defender makes them plain old miss because of already mentioned identical frame data. To me at least, Marth has to slow his aggressive game down slightly to basically try to maximize each hit more because of the extra element of needing to hit with the tip.

You are certainly right though on the defensive aspect: I'd much rather use Lucina against an aggro Sonic rather than Marth.
 

A2ZOMG

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Fair enough, though I still feel that Lucina at least can play a faster aggressive game, if less rewarding per hit assuming perfect playing on both sides including both the attacker and defender. If both sides are at top level, neither side are going to get perfect spacing 100% of the time: for the hits that Marth is able to space perfectly he obviously does more, but whenever the defender manages to do something so the spacing is imperfect Lucina comes out ahead. Both are on even grounds if the defender makes them plain old miss because of already mentioned identical frame data. To me at least, Marth has to slow his aggressive game down slightly to basically try to maximize each hit more because of the extra element of needing to hit with the tip.

You are certainly right though on the defensive aspect: I'd much rather use Lucina against an aggro Sonic rather than Marth.
The real advantage to Marth's offense isn't tipper damage. It's the fact he can potentially KO something like 25-40% earlier than Lucina when he does tipper, which as I stated is easier to set up in situations where you are aggressively controlling the pace of the game rather than in games where you are forced on the defense. Lucina's hits do about 1-2% more than Marth's when non-tippered, which honestly isn't as huge as Marth's raw KO potential. Yes, she is probably slightly more reliable at damage racking over time, but it's not as huge as Marth say, landing a tipper F-smash or B-air edgeguard that ends you at 80% while Lucina has to work her opponents to more like 110% at least before she tries to get the KO.

Though to paraphrase EL, none of that probably matters at top level play when Marth and Lucina's game will most likely revolve around ending you with edgeguards and ledge pressure after putting you offstage. At which point, who does more damage or KOs earlier is pretty irrelevant.
 
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Signia

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she has multiple attacks that are + on block.
I keep seeing this, yet there are no examples. Which moves are honestly + on block? I didn't think there were any attacks (other than slow projectiles) that are even close to that in this game. You're saying that if you grab them after you block their attack, you'd beat their immediate shieldgrab (ZSS vs ZSS)? Because that's what it means to be + on block: your attack beats their's even when they're the same speed.

I wasn't talking frame data, I was referring more to need to space attacks or not. If you don't need to space as precisely, you can play more aggressively and thus have a faster game, even if the frame data is the same.
Why do you think Marth needs to space attacks so much more precisely than Lucina? Lucina does hardly any more damage than Marth on non-tipped attacks.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2i80q0/lucina_vs_marth_damage_i_couldnt_find_this/

She gets like 1% more, lol
 
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NocturnalQuill

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One thing that's stuck me after a bit more playing is that even though some characters are obviously better than others, nobody seems blatantly terrible like in Brawl. Just looking at the last few pages, aside form the top 8 or so people's impressions are all over the place (except Palutena, that's what Sakurai gets for his favoritism). I've always wished the Smash meta placed a greater emphasis on picks/counterpicks rather than having 5 or so at the top and nobody else.
 

Torn_Smash

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One thing that's stuck me after a bit more playing is that even though some characters are obviously better than others, nobody seems blatantly terrible like in Brawl. Just looking at the last few pages, aside form the top 8 or so people's impressions are all over the place (except Palutena, that's what Sakurai gets for his favoritism). I've always wished the Smash meta placed a greater emphasis on picks/counterpicks rather than having 5 or so at the top and nobody else.
Well even Palutena is only bad just because she is meant to be customized, which then is funny that they didn't allow custom moves in For Glory, basically gutting her in that mode. But with custom moves on, she gets WAY better. In fact, i'm pretty sure they made her default move set bad in order to get people to play around with her custom moves.

Smash 4 = #everybodysthebest
 
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mimgrim

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Anyone calling Palutena bottom or low obviously are going by her default specials and not her custom ones. Seriously people, Super Speed, 3rd Side Special, is simply amazing. The move comes out fast and makes her travel extremely fast and she can Dash attack, Grab, Pivot Grab, or Jump Cancel out of it, while retaining momentum, and if she connects with the opponent while in the move and JCs it she can combo them into Nair and carry them far off-stage or into Bair. The mix-ups are real.

Then you have Lightweight or Celestial Firework, her 2nd and 3rd Dspecial respectively, which are both good. Lightweight gives Palutena a great mobility boost that last a fair amount of time and makes her better at what she is already great at doing. While Celestial Fire Works has intangibility at the start-up and lasts from the for a surprising good time frame.

And don't get me started on Dthrow. One of the best, if not the best, throws in the game.
 

The Real Gamer

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People still sleeping on Charizard I see... It's all good just makes me look that much better when I'm racking up those W's. ;)
 
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~ Gheb ~

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I'm curious to see some top level gameplay of Charizard. The character seems borderline unplayable to me.

Not sure how people can post tier lists that have Fox / Diddy lower than High Tier. These two characters are really damn good in this game and should not be slept on. Especially Diddy Kong. That character has won tournaments with 4 different players already in 4 different regions and people still have him creeping around in like C- or upper-mid tier. Diddy is WAY better than that.

:059:
 

Emblem Lord

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Diddy is insane. My marth could not lay a single slash on jtails diddy the player that just won ktar in nj
 
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