Character Competitive Impressions

[Hat N' Clogs]

Actually, i'm rather worried about Villager. His actual range seems like the least of many of the new characters and I find I can just get in on him and beat him up and there's not that much he can do about it. Anyone else getting the impression he's a bit easy to go against? Surely i'm missing something?

I've experienced range-issues with villager, too (specifically the f-smash). IMO it's one of his bigger flaws. You're not alone concerning the analysis.

 

[Starbound]

Really impressed with Bowser Jr. Lack of kill moves is an issue but he has an insane damage racking ability. His recovery is also pretty great. I'm also really impressed with Duck Hunt's ability to control the stage with his three projectiles.

Shulk and Palutena are kinda disappointing to me because they've got really slow attacks.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've experienced range-issues with villager, too (specifically the f-smash). IMO it's one of his bigger flaws. You're not alone concerning the analysis.

I haven't used Villager much in the full game, but in the demo I realized his tilts seem to be more generally useful than his smashes except in certain punish or trap situations. (Usmash may be an exception since it hits pretty far above him, but it seems better as an antiair than anything.)

 

[SamuraiPanda]

After having played Bowser Jr and Shulk in tournament, I don't think I'll be playing them again. Maybe when the Wii U version comes out, but for now I just don't think they are very viable to place high.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A marth player named killock just won a large tourney.

Suck it haters. Mid tier marth dont mean jack if he has mostly even match ups

(Which i think he does)

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

A marth player named killock just won a large tourney.

Suck it haters. Mid tier marth dont mean jack if he has mostly even match ups

(Which i think he does)

I'm quite a fan of Marth as he is in this game, I'd put him high tier but not top. His attacks seem to come out faster, even if they have more lag, and tipper looks like it does more damage. I'd be surprised if he didn't get a favourable eye when official tiers are released further into the future.

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Marth and Lucina are great in this game. A tad different, but the basics are there in some form.

 

[MattCon5]

After having my hands on the game for a few days and playing 100+ online matches, I feel like I've gathered a solid list of character first impressions. I also don't think there are a lot of terrible characters. For the most part, everybody on the roster has some positives.

The good:

- G&W is going to be solid mid-high tier. He's small and quick, and his tools just all work nicely with each other.
- Yoshi is incredibly strong. Eggs are great for stalling recovery and zoning, and he also has buggy things going on with his eggs which is nice for ATs
- Sheik is amazing, which is nice considering I've mained Sheik since Melee. No landing lag on aerials, can actually combo and has follow-ups out of three of her grabs. Needles are an incredible tool in her kit. Seriously, they're so strong. Speaking of tool kit, she has no terrible moves at all. I've had some trouble finding a good time to use her side-B but it's definitely more situationally useful than the chain.
- Peach looks strong. Her turnips are really buggy and she can cancel hitstun with them and do all kinds of fun things. Having the ability to edge cancel them makes them a really useful projectile. Her new u-air is good for juggles as well.

Characters that are good but I don't have much to say about:
- DDD
- Marth
- Lucina
- Mario
- ZSS
- Rosalina
- Jigglypuff
- Pikachu
- Toon Link
- Bowser
- Duck Hunt
- Sonic

The bad:

- I was expecting Villager to be much stronger, but he has some real problems against speedy characters. I think part of it might be figuring out how to play him properly, but most villagers camp with trees and rockets and it's just so easy to read. His d-tilt is really good and his aerials are amazing but his smashes and the rest of his tilts just kind of blow.
- Palutena is just not good. Too much landing lag on aerials, too slow, too doggy all around.
- I really want to like Shulk but I find that Shulk is really only a solid character with Monado Arts - Speed activated. It improves his grab game considerably, and if he lands with an auto-canceled n-air he has really nice aerial to ground game transitions. His concept was nice but in execution I'm not convinced it works well.
- Ike, like Palutena, is too slow.
- I don't want to put him in the bad category but I think Meta Knight's main problem is that his range was nerfed considerably and I think it might've been overcompensating for Brawl MK.

Needs time to be figured out:
- Wii Fit Trainer
- R.O.B.
- Little Mac
- Diddy Kong
- Dark Pit
- Samus
- Greninja
- Pac-Man
- Megaman
- Ness

 

[\±/Gale\±/]

Well, I've had the game for a day now, and here's what I can tell about the main two characters I've used.

Palutena just seems straight out bad. It's sad, because I'll probably still try to use her as my backup (Just because I like her), but her default specials just do not have the right kind of synergy. She has two defensive moves in her side B and down B, and her side B is especially situational. Her neutral B is what most people expected from her, being a zoning tool, but it's too unreliable to work well. Her best strengths to me seem to be the appalling range on her up smash and the pure KO potential of her u-air. This forces you to try to keep the opponent above you, but she doesn't really have any moves to put them there besides her throws. Her tilts are slow and have little combo potential beyond her u-tilt, leading you to have to try to play defensively and stack up damage with neutral B spam, which doesn't work well. They are also easy to punish if whiffed or on block. That's at least how she looks to me.

Robin seems pretty decent to me, despite what the Japanese tier lists may say about him. He has a good zoning tool in his side B, and his neutral B is just all around his most useful special. Thunder is quick and surprising, with Elthunder being a stronger, slower variant. Arcthunder and Thoron are definitely where this move shines, though. Thoron can be all around unpredictable if used right, and has great knockback at mid-high percents. It comes out blazing fast and covers the entire width of the screen, making it an extremely valuable tool. However, the main thing I want to point out is about Arcthunder. It seems as though a lot of people haven't realized this, but I believe Arcthunder is a much better tool for scoring KOs than Thoron. It appears to have better knockback at higher percents, and testing it myself, it does indeed seem to work better (KOing around 95-100% as opposed to Thoron KOing at around 105-110%). However, it lacks the speed of Thoron, so you'll have to time it right when there's an opening. Unfortunately, Robin's down B is pretty useless. It has short range, doesn't really deal or heal enough % to make it worth the risk, and has almost no knockback. His up B is average, offering good recovery at the cost of predictability. The two shots below him seem like they could do some interesting things though. Robin's A attacks seem solid. You can "smash" them in midair to use the Levin sword, which has some of the most ridiculously powerful air attacks when they hit. Almost all of them can KO. He has good approach tools in his fair and bair, and I believe (don't quote me on this) that his dair can spike with the Levin sword. His jab is solid, offering decent damage and knockback, though it's escapable if you use it for too long. Robin seems like a character that will take effiicient usage and knowledge of his expendable moves, but they can pay off if used well.

Beyond these two, I've just got a few comments, though I don't know for sure how correct these observations are.

Rosalina seems like she can be a monster. Her zoning is amazing, and Luma can serve as a shield if need be. I played her a bit, and she seems complicated to control correctly, but I have no doubt that it would pay off to learn her.

Marth definitely seems weaker in this game, though I don't think he's unusable. He seems slightly stronger than Lucina to me, having tippers and a spike.

Zero Suit Samus seems to have an all around good movepool. All of her specials seem useful, and her up B can KO fairly easily at higher percents (sometimes on accident when recovering). I expect that she'll see some time in the spotlight.

Ness seems to have gotten some big buffs to both speed and power. He's definitely useable, though I still don't expect to see him do too well due to the predictability of his up B and how easy it is to block.

As many people have said, I expect Bowser to be a major threat. His speed and power are crazy, to the point where one might begin to call him overpowered. However, we're still exploring the game, so I won't jump to any conclusions.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Palutena's entire default game is Jab, Grab, U-smash, U-air, B-air. Basically all she has is good grab reward (pummel is very strong), some decent juggles, and B-air edgeguard hurts. But she's bad in neutral.

 

[epicgordan]

Has anybody figured out any killer Custom Movesets for Palutena? Because I doubt she would be very viable in the competitive scene with just her default moveset. It's not like one would even need to work for them either since she gets all of hers from the get-go. And assuming that Custom movesets will be allowed (and really, why shouldn't they? Or should we start banning hidden abilities and held items in the competitive Pokémon scenes, too?), I reckon that someone will find a way to make her competitive.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think these are the best characters in the game: Diddy, Yoshi, Lucario, Rosalina, Greninja, Fox, Sheik, Little Mac, DHD, ZSS, Sonic. I can't say anything about the order yet except that I believe Diddy, Yoshi, Lucario and Rosalina to be the top 4 of this game.

 

[ChampKing]

Mac has massive amounts of potential. Can't wait for someone to master him. He is not as easy to use as people think hence all the bad Macs online.
Bowser is great. Much faster than expected and strong too.
Sheik is Sheik. Boring and effective.
Ganon is a bit better than I expected. He might actually be decent.
Meta Knight's weird hitboxes throw me off. Probably still good though.

For Glory really isn't worth playing now. Going to wait until people actually get used to the game.

 

[dankbananas]

I'll post some impressions too. Overall the game feels pretty balanced, I hope it's just not the new game effect.



Overall he clearly got nerfed, but for entirely new reasons I think he's a very solid and fun character. His projectile is great, but also can't be spammed since it can be reflected very easily. I love his new down tilt, almost makes up for the removal of his godly Brawl back air. He has a spike now! And I feel his neutral air is better now. One of my favorite characters so far.

Agreed, I had to rethink my strategy a bit because of his lack of safe range play in this installment. All in due time I suppose.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think these are the best characters in the game: Diddy, Yoshi, Lucario, Rosalina, Greninja, Fox, Sheik, Little Mac, DHD, ZSS, Sonic. I can't say anything about the order yet except that I believe Diddy, Yoshi, Lucario and Rosalina to be the top 4 of this game.

juice.doom, Jtails and a few other NJ players as well as myself were talking about this just hours ago and you named everyone we feel is scary.

Diddy is crazy. I couldnt lay a hand on Jtails Diddy with Marth though he brushed it off because the game is still new.

 

[JosekiTheGreat]

Ive been dedicating myself to learning Rosalina since the Japanese version, since puppet characters have always been very appealing to me. She has some small weaknesses, but overall there are not many characters in the game who have tools to deal with her zoning. Most situations where Rosalina is zoning well result in a guessing game in which rosalina is heavily favored. It is difficult to get in, and recalling Luma after airdodge cancels air-dodge landing lag, so its very difficult to punish her in the air overall.

She has an extremely short (and therefore great) fox-trot that is easy to pivot out of, and her jab is both quick, and has an extended disjointed hitbox due to Luma. Nair and Fair have long enough hitboxes that it covers airdodge as an option, so people who try to airdodge just end up getting hit with the last hit of either move (which is the strongest hit).

The most common tactic people try is to jump over luma and come in from the air, but Rosalina's Fair is HUGE and I haven't found anything that outright beats it in the air. Not to mention you can angle FSmash and just beat their approach that way, if they roll, downsmash covers that as well. I realize this sounds very "flow chart" but in my experiance it's just what has been the most effective.

Once Luma is lost however (Luma is fairly easily dispatched) Rosalina gets a lot worse at zoning, but fortunately has a lot of strong multihitting moves and overall high priority on her attacks anyway, so it doesn't seem like too crippling (like losing nana for example as IC's) It basically just means you get to have a "fair fight" for 15 seconds while Luma respawns. This is to imply that fighting R&L together is unfair, which I'm inclined to think is.

Has anyone played against any skilled R&L players? I haven't really played as any other character since I'm trying to go all-in on learning her, so I figured I'd contribute to the thread the only way I really can! I have a 95% FG winrate in 1v1 with her, which isn't saying a whole lot since about 1/3 of the players you fight on average are total beginners, but I'm not sure I could have done so well with any other character.

-Joseki

EDIT: To clarify, I think a lot of what puts characters ahead of others in Smash is simply asking the question "How many characters can deal with the X, Y, and Z that this character has?" In the case of Metaknight in Brawl, or Fox in Melee, it turns out only a few characters could really compete with those characters strengths. In the case of Rosalina, it is *very* difficult to do *anything* if your character does not have a good projectile, or very strong aerial options.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

As I play more, I've come to realize that custom moves really define a lot of characters to the point that I'm really distrusting of power impressions that don't account for them (like for glory play in general). So far I'm pretty convinced Greninja (my current main) is fantastic but otherwise I just don't know; every time I think I have a character figured out I realize that movesets that people I'm playing aren't utilizing to their full potential change things just too much for my power impressions to be valid. I think this game is going to take us a lot longer to figure out than the previous games; we'll need a few weeks for everyone to actually have unlocked all the real characters (meaning having all custom moves) and to figure out what custom moves are generally strong on each and how they match up with each other. A lot of the characters I see being listed as strong now strike me as the ones who gain relatively less from movesets, and that just makes me leary in general.

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I don't consider myself a pro at all, but here are a few of my impressions:
Ness is the best he's ever been. I'm not sure what it is, but he just feels really good in Smash 4. Maybe it's the new physics, maybe he got some subtle changes, I can't really tell what is specifically. He just plays so well. It's not just his chaingrab issues not being a problem anymore. As a Ness main of 7 years, I'm enthralled. He's got to be upper middle tier at least.

Greninja is a very interesting character, he's all about mindgames. Shadow sneak is an excellent killing move that also has great utility. He's the ultimate camper killer, which alone will make him popular in competitive smash. Easily high tier.

Some people say he's amazing, some people say he's overrated. I say he's trash. Mac will be a popular pubstomper in For Glory, but I don't think he'll fare well at all in a competitive environment. Once he's in the air, he's dead. Everything he does is so punishable. I'll never understand what people see in him. He'll be low mid if he's lucky.

Other people who feel viable, but I haven't played enough to really be sure:

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Ive been dedicating myself to learning Rosalina since the Japanese version, since puppet characters have always been very appealing to me. She has some small weaknesses, but overall there are not many characters in the game who have tools to deal with her zoning. Most situations where Rosalina is zoning well result in a guessing game in which rosalina is heavily favored. It is difficult to get in, and recalling Luma after airdodge cancels air-dodge landing lag, so its very difficult to punish her in the air overall.

She has an extremely short (and therefore great) fox-trot that is easy to pivot out of, and her jab is both quick, and has an extended disjointed hitbox due to Luma. Nair and Fair have long enough hitboxes that it covers airdodge as an option, so people who try to airdodge just end up getting hit with the last hit of either move (which is the strongest hit).

The most common tactic people try is to jump over luma and come in from the air, but Rosalina's Fair is HUGE and I haven't found anything that outright beats it in the air. Not to mention you can angle FSmash and just beat their approach that way, if they roll, downsmash covers that as well. I realize this sounds very "flow chart" but in my experiance it's just what has been the most effective.

Once Luma is lost however (Luma is fairly easily dispatched) Rosalina gets a lot worse at zoning, but fortunately has a lot of strong multihitting moves and overall high priority on her attacks anyway, so it doesn't seem like too crippling (like losing nana for example as IC's) It basically just means you get to have a "fair fight" for 15 seconds while Luma respawns. This is to imply that fighting R&L together is unfair, which I'm inclined to think is.

Has anyone played against any skilled R&L players? I haven't really played as any other character since I'm trying to go all-in on learning her, so I figured I'd contribute to the thread the only way I really can! I have a 95% FG winrate in 1v1 with her, which isn't saying a whole lot since about 1/3 of the players you fight on average are total beginners, but I'm not sure I could have done so well with any other character.

-Joseki

EDIT: To clarify, I think a lot of what puts characters ahead of others in Smash is simply asking the question "How many characters can deal with the X, Y, and Z that this character has?" In the case of Metaknight in Brawl, or Fox in Melee, it turns out only a few characters could really compete with those characters strengths. In the case of Rosalina, it is *very* difficult to do *anything* if your character does not have a good projectile, or very strong aerial options.

I agree with your analysis. Rosalina seems amazing.

Who are Rosalina's worst matchups?

 

[epicgordan]

I agree with your analysis. Rosalina seems amazing.

Who are Rosalina's worst matchups?

Based on personal analysis, it appears that Bowser and Little Mac are the characters best equipped at taking care of Rosalina. Though it is worth noting too that it's not a huge disadvantage, either; particularly with Little Mac since Rosalina and potentially juggle him if timed right.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I agree with your analysis. Rosalina seems amazing.

Who are Rosalina's worst matchups?

I haven't tested this myself, but I hear Pac man can keep Luma away from Rosalina by using his hydrant. Luma won't move over it, even when Rosalina calls him, so it would allow Pacman more chances to cripple her play.

 

[ChikoLad]

I agree with your analysis. Rosalina seems amazing.

Who are Rosalina's worst matchups?

Honestly hard to say right now.

I honestly haven't had much trouble with any characters in particular.

I had trouble against a Peach today but that's because I was playing while quite tired and off my game, which is not a good way for a Rosalina main to be.

I also had trouble with one Little Mac player while playing with friends, who really understood how to use him. However, this only applied to our matches on FD. Otherwise, he was no problem.

The Little Mac player apparently found my Rosalina tough to deal with though, claiming I "play her like a pro". So I'm not even sure on this match up.

And I disagree that Bowser has an advantage against Rosalina, quite the other way around actually. Really his only strengths against her are his power and weight, but both are perfectly surmountable for Rosalina.

 

[LudwigKoopa]

I've enjoyed many of the characters so far. I just wrapped up beating All-Star with every one, and got a decent feel for them. First off, I absolutely hate Ike and Charizard, they felt the worst in every respect. I also don't have much hope for Mega Man and Olimar.

I've really enjoyed ZSS, Samus, Bowser, Shiek, Lucario, Capt. Falcon, Lucina/Marth, and Greninja.

I also think these guys are really solid as well: Shulk (needs lots of practice/possibly wait for Wii U version), Yoshi, Robin, Diddy Kong, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Pac Man, Fox, and a few more.

 

[JosekiTheGreat]

Honestly hard to say right now.

I honestly haven't had much trouble with any characters in particular.

I had trouble against a Peach today but that's because I was playing while quite tired and off my game, which is not a good way for a Rosalina main to be.

I also had trouble with one Little Mac player while playing with friends, who really understood how to use him. However, this only applied to our matches on FD. Otherwise, he was no problem.

The Little Mac player apparently found my Rosalina tough to deal with though, claiming I "play her like a pro". So I'm not even sure on this match up.

And I disagree that Bowser has an advantage against Rosalina, quite the other way around actually. Really his only strengths against her are his power and weight, but both are perfectly surmountable for Rosalina.

I've only played each matchup a couple of times at best (except the popular characters whom I've played against tons online already) so it's hard to say. General theory and experience indicates that Link can be really tricky to play against, he has a good camping game and can definitely sneak in damage a little easier than Rosalina at a distance, meaning that the Link player isn't forced to approach which is very significant. Same goes for Samus, althought Samus seems to be to be overall weaker in the non-projectile game than Link is, making her seem like less of a threat.

All of the supposedly good characters do seem like fine matchups for Rosalina, any heavy character with limited approach options (Bowser, Gannondorf, DDD, DK, Warrio) have been a piece of cake, whereas the faster characters can be pretty tricky if you aren't picking good options very regularly, since their speed can really take advantage of a miss-step.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm quite a fan of Marth as he is in this game, I'd put him high tier but not top. His attacks seem to come out faster, even if they have more lag, and tipper looks like it does more damage. I'd be surprised if he didn't get a favourable eye when official tiers are released further into the future.

Both of these things are false. Not going to pass judgement til I play him on Wii U though, the 3DS makes good spacing unnecessarily difficult.

Rosalina looks really polarizing. I see most characters either having okay or really bad matchups against her.

 

[Luco]

Yeah from what i've seen R+L may be a big deal this time around. :o

I feel like Marth's range on many of his moves has been slightly reduced. Is that just me? I suspect quite a few characters received nerfs to their range, actually.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I've bee playing Luigi, R.O.B., King Dedede and Robin.

All 4 feel very solid and good characters.

 

[Kofu]

Now that I have the full game and have been able to play with Villager a little more, I feel like he might be high tier. Nothing amazing, mind you, but good enough to keep him in the game. I've only fought one competent Rosalina so far, and Villager does a decent job at keeping Luma away with Lloid Rocket. Nothing phenominal--Rosalina definitely outranges him--but probably the best matchup of any of the characters I used against her.

I eventually got my Game & Watch to the point where I could beat that Rosalina consistently, although I'd say the matchup is in her favor. Game & Watch in general was nerfed, with added recovery time to landing all his aerials except for FAir and especially Dtilt. The buffs to the bucket are nice, though.

I feel like Rosalina wouldn't do quite as well on stages with platforms, although her hitboxes are definitely big enough that she wouldn't be limited that way. Playing with Luma would just be a little trickier, since there would be more than one way to approach her.

I've also been impressed with Greninja. Water Shuriken is quite versatile and his DAir is quite safe on hit. He's too fast for me to use as a character, though.

What are people's thoughts on Bowser Jr.? His options seem excellent, and while he has minor problems killing, that hasn't necessarily held a character back before. I look forward to seeing where he ends up going on the tier list.

 

[deepseadiva]

I think this game is going to take us a lot longer to figure out than the previous games.

For real like this is gonna take us 50 years unlocking all this **** omfg

 

[Jgod]

Seems like there will only be 3 or 4 tiers.
Tbh while I hate facing Sheiks they don't have the best record same for Bowser. Bowsers have been very underwhelming so far: To fight and watch.
All the heavies seem stronger but I've yet to see a DK of any merit. I think mii brawler is pretty good he is fairly mobile probably better than sword.

Honestly feels like shulks kill potential outside of Smash isn't very potent. He feels like he should be killing early but he is far more interested in gimps to do so. Going In to Smash is a serious gamble its nerfing damage 50% for that knock back increase, but you can legit be killed at 60-80% in a way that is astounding. I think Smash use is going to fall out of his play to be seen as situational. You thought your character didn't have kill moves...then Shulk turned himself into a piece where everything g you do throws him off stage. The weaknesses of forms are harsh that the skill cap will bar his initial performance.e it would be a lot easier on Wii u though I'll say that.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Any person who doesn't have Yoshi in their top characters list clearly hasn't played against a good Yoshi yet.

 

[Luco]

I'm pretty happy for Yoshi; after 3 games of low or low mid it looks like he'll really get a chance to shine this time around. Looking forward to seeing what comes out of our favourite dino buddy. :D

 

[deepseadiva]

Not to mention he doesn't move around and look like a microwaved booger anymore.

He's finally cute and round like in Yoshi's Story the best Yoshi game.

 

[mimgrim]

So after having the chance to mess around with characters more, I think I got a stronger impression now.

So Palutena. First off, people saying she is bad are those who aren't using custom moves. Custom moves define her. The current set-up I've been running with is a 1312 set-up. Explosive Flame, her 2nd Nspecial, would be better then Autoreticle if the distance could be changed for it, but due to the constantly same distance it has it becomes super predictable. Super Speed, 3rd Sspecial, is like Sonic's spin dashing and Koopalings Sspecial, and is a very useful 1-2 combo and like the name implies it is really really fast and can easily take the opponent off guard. Her other Sspecials just aren't comparable to that one. Warp is her best recovery option. Goes a fair distance, and can go any direction. And then her Dspecials. In general I am not a fan of counter moves, so I would rather not use it. There is no point to use Celestial Firework when her Upsmash exists, they have the same function but Usmash is better in everything. So that leaves Lightweight which will make her faster and jump higher for an amount of time. Be warned though, after the time-frame ends here is a small time of cool down period where she becomes much slower. Now for her regular attacks... it gets a bit tricky here. Her ground ground attacks are laggy, aside from Usmash, but her air attacks are fast. Her ground attacks are also all disjointed and have good range while some of her air attacks are disjointed and have less range then her ground attacks. Her grab game is good. Pummel is great. And her Dthrow leads into a lot of things at like all percents. Early percents you have Dthrow > Fair > Fair after that you can do Dthrow > Nair, Dthrow > Usmash, Dthrow > Uair, and maybe more. Need more testing. Her neutral game is going to be mostly in the air and fishing for the grab while her ground attacks will be used for creating walls with lingering hit boxes to try and keep the opponent a bay. Overall she seems solid, but he has some defined weaknesses and strengths. I don't think she'll be top, but I think she might be in in the higher region of the cast still.

I've also being gravitating towards Falcon, Yoshi, Mac, Wii Fit Trainer, and Samus as well. But I want to play them more before I give impressions.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't consider myself a pro at all, but here are a few of my impressions:
Ness is the best he's ever been. I'm not sure what it is, but he just feels really good in Smash 4. Maybe it's the new physics, maybe he got some subtle changes, I can't really tell what is specifically. He just plays so well. It's not just his chaingrab issues not being a problem anymore. As a Ness main of 7 years, I'm enthralled. He's got to be upper middle tier at least.

Greninja is a very interesting character, he's all about mindgames. Shadow sneak is an excellent killing move that also has great utility. He's the ultimate camper killer, which alone will make him popular in competitive smash. Easily high tier.

Some people say he's amazing, some people say he's overrated. I say he's trash. Mac will be a popular pubstomper in For Glory, but I don't think he'll fare well at all in a competitive environment. Once he's in the air, he's dead. Everything he does is so punishable. I'll never understand what people see in him. He'll be low mid if he's lucky.

Other people who feel viable, but I haven't played enough to really be sure:

What kills your argument about little mac is you said hes punishable. His smashes and his tilts are safe on block. He also has legit combos into KO punch vs Greninja whos praises you sing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Any person who doesn't have Yoshi in their top characters list clearly hasn't played against a good Yoshi yet.

I haven't played against any Yoshis yet, never mind a good one. What's he got this go round?

There is no point to use Celestial Firework when her Upsmash exists, they have the same function but Usmash is better in everything.

I believe Celestial Fireworks has invincibility on startup, although IDK the exact frame details. Dunno how useful it would be given its hitbox, but still something over usmash.

 

[Signia]

I think you are all very wrong about Palutena. She's top tier with Jump Glide and Auto Dash, easily.

Jump-Glide (Up-B 2) on the ground does medium height hop that can be cancelled into aerials but are put into freefall if you do it off stage. When you land with these aerials you recover instantly. It is reminiscent of Peach float cancel aerials except from her parasol up-B and DJC aerial attack angles (you can control your momentum really well). In the air, you go too high for it be used offensively but its to be used as a recovery move.

Auto Dash (Side-B 3) is also amazing. On the ground, it's a very fast dash with an active hitbox the whole time and Link-like projectile shield. You can cancel the dash at any time, the same as a normal dash, meaning you don't have to wait for any recovery to followup after it hits. Auto Dash to Up-Smash or any aerial is a true combo. In the air, it's a diagonal dive attack but contiues dashing along the ground. And remember it goes at Sonic dash speed.

Combine these two and you could do lagless aerial -> auto dash -> up smash or autocancel fair -> more pressure because you're fast as ****. Absolute combo monster with insane mobility options.

Fireworks (Down-B 3) is invincible for a long period of time, launches opponents from the ground in front of her with a pretty fast startup, and combos into itself. "Bottom tier"? Hello?

Lightweight (Down-B 2) also grants silly fast movement, but it's kinda unecessary when you have Auto Dash and has the drawback of making an already light character even lighter. Might want to use it if you really need Side-B for the reflect wall.

All the neutral Bs are nothing special and it could just be personal preference but the Explosive Flame is probably better than the others. Basically it causes an explosion at a set distance. Great for hitting someone like DHD who is just standing back and projectile zoning.

The best loadout for most situations seems to be:
2323 (neutral, side, up, down) (Flame, Auto Dash, Jump-Glide, Fireworks)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd8_uHwl6NM

There's also no reason to ban custom moves on her ever since it requires no unlocking and her default kit is one of the worst possible choices. If you ban her customs, you are essentially banning Palutena.

About her normals: All the tilts are long-lasting disjointed approach killers. They're meant to stuff people that are dashing/jumping at you. Long-lasting attacks are easier to time with someone's approach but it makes them more punishable. Her smashes also sorta serve the same purpose, except go to even greater extremes. That's not so great that her only options on the ground are big slow high priority moves. The only ground poke she has is maybe single jab.

Her dthrow seems to combo to the auto-cancel fair. Always nice to have that. Very Sheik-like.


So yeah she's good guys... TLDR watch the video.

 

[DJ3DS]

Needs time to be figured out:
- R.O.B.

ROB is one I've played a lot as. He has a good projectile game; decent options in neutral with great smashes, a decent tilt and a usable side special this time round. His biggest problem by far to me seems that, due to his large hurtbox and the speed of his recovery (with no hitbox) being nerfed alongside fuel considerations, he is one of the easier characters to gimp and doesn't get back on stage as easily as others. One of his custom recoveries solves the fuel and speed issues. At a guess I would put him around the middle; he made that in Brawl and his worst matchups there have been nerfed considerably in this game compared to what most people say is an overall buff for ROB so I don't think he'll end up too low.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think these are the best characters in the game: Diddy, Yoshi, Lucario, Rosalina, Greninja, Fox, Sheik, Little Mac, DHD, ZSS, Sonic. I can't say anything about the order yet except that I believe Diddy, Yoshi, Lucario and Rosalina to be the top 4 of this game.

While I've seen tons of videos, researched stuph myself and the rest of us in the Yoshi boards finding and explaining glitches moves buff/nerfs, and full well know Yoshi can possibly be S-B tier this time around.

One thing that stands out that has not been brought up still.
Why does the japanese think Yoshi is such a threat to be top tier? I could not find any japanese matches of Yoshi players, anything I find is basically just them posting the glitches or anything from US/EU.

 

[NotLiquid]

I feel like Villager's issue is going to be mainly with fast characters, or characters that lack any important meta defining projectiles. Greninja, Sonic and ZSS all feel like they have an advantage in that particular match up because Villager doesn't really seem to have any reliable way to deal with their approaches when they have the tools to attack him from every angle.

Rosalina is such a hard match up to define. I only just recently fought someone in For Glory who used her and I kept getting sidetracked by the potency of that Luma and how powerful it is. I really don't know what's a good counter for her, but a good Rosalina player is straight up scary to have to fight.