Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Err, wrong PK

(I have no strong feelings on this matter)

Whoops, apologies to you.

 

[Loota]

Lucario's competitive problem is that, as far as I know, he's getting wrecked by Rosalina.

I don't have a strong personal opinion of that matchup is but it is one that custom moves will make a lot easier for Lucario since piercing aura sphere exists. Normal AS loses completely its uses there, even the charge isn't usable because of Luma. It probably is a negative matchup yes but not anywhere near a wreckage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel like Shulk will eventually **** on every heavy except for DDD.
One read and power counter means you are dead

Like ganondorf, bowser, dk, ike? I can kill you at 30% off a simple attack. It's not time now but I could see these evolving to 8-2.

Shulk has to play respectfully against Dash Klaw and Flame Choke. Also he is not reactively countering most of DK's pokes or Bowser's Jab. Ike likely struggles slightly more than the others, but he has better standard grab reward than the other heavies and he gets Eruption 2 to edgeguard Shulk very safely. Plus Shulk also has to play respectfully around Ike's counter as well when approaching.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shulk has to play respectfully against Dash Klaw and Flame Choke. Also he is not reactively countering most of DK's pokes or Bowser's Jab. Ike likely struggles slightly more than the others, but he has better standard grab reward than the other heavies and he gets Eruption 2 to edgeguard Shulk very safely. Plus Shulk also has to play respectfully around Ike's counter as well when approaching.

Flame choke is stopped cold by Nair as I've come to realize because I'm having difficulty teching about 40% of Flame chokes. Solutions was to remove it from the board. Come Wii U outside of DACUS shulk will have consistent safe on block.
Flame choke-grab, Nair and jab are what Canons least lethal if countered attacks? An ftilt, dtilt any smash, wizards and you die. Even if were ignoring that we shouldn't dismiss Shulks spacing capabilities.
Bowser does his dash claw but is otherwise a combination of slow and lacking range relative to shulk while being a large hurtbox. Frankly dash claw wouldnt be my first pick in that MU.

Ike's got the problem in Shulk operating nearly the same but faster for slightly less damage. And, Armor on back slash charge. Ike's jab is better but shulk has better stage control.

What is DK poking with, even with his substantial range Shulk also has substantial range. Kong cyclone and a dtilt?

Like I said Shulk can end their stock off 1-2 smart reads. I'll include charizard with DDD as the ones I don't see shulks repertoire being as significant. Charizards grab game is way too rewarding against Shulk and while power vision can easily end a stock, so can flare blitz.
One thing to note is heavies for the most part are slow, but shulk retains KO threat in Shield Monado.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, I don't think there's 8/2 matchups. Even on default settings strictly. Though there's some 7/3s that are made not nearly as awful with customs.

This is my general estimate of things well.

I have in my book, 8-2 for default Mega Man vs default Puff, but that's mostly based off of my personal experience and looking at movesets/data. Mega Man's Bair outranges hers, she doesn't have an answer for the lemon wall, her grab game doesn't lead into anything so shielding is pretty safe, she gets killed at 63% by mega upper, and it's really hard for her to edge guard Mega Man due to his ability to DJ after rush.

8-2 might be a stretch... but kind of feels that way to me.

This is a great example of a likely bad matchup, but I'm very skeptical it's 8-2.

Let's compare it Jigglypuff's 2-8 matchup in Brawl against G&W.

There are a lot of similarities. G&W dominated Jigglypuff with a superior bair, but his bair was much more superior than MM's it. Additionally, G&W had his signature, uniquely high horizontal deceleration that made it extra effective to space with. MM shouldn't be THAT oppressive, and Jigglypuff's mobility advantage does allow her some ability to cope with superior aerials.

MM u-tilt does decimate Jiggs at low %s, just like G&W smashes in Brawl. However, it does not have the range advantage.

Jiggs is otherwise marginally better in Smash 4 than Brawl; Pound is less safe, but shield damage is much more rewarding. Rest is significantly stronger--which is more important to Jiggs in bad matchups when she is desperate and taking risks is more appealing.

MM does have some advantages G&W didn't; u-smash is a nice tool here, uair is potent, metal blade is always good, and lemons are interesting. He can probably rush cancel Jiggs dair too! But, at the end of the day, I can't see this matchup going nearly as bad for Jigglypuff as the Brawl G&W matchup.

I feel like Shulk will eventually **** on every heavy except for DDD.
One read and power counter means you are dead

Like ganondorf, bowser, dk, ike? I can kill you at 30% off a simple attack. It's not time now but I could see these evolving to 8-2.

Ganon and Bowser can take really high reward command grabs that harshly penalize counters. DK has a few tools that work here, and Ike has his signature jab game.

Counters only really work as a counter-read, which is difficult.

Edit: I was late to this party. Others already posted better formed thoughts along the same lines.

 

[sunset_raven]

Hey people. I've been thinking a lot on maining Villager, but, seriously, isn't Rosa just a hard counter? What Villager could do in that matchup?

I'd like to hear what are your thoughts on bad matchups for Villager, as well. Thanks!

 

[NairWizard]

^

Man... talk about a false dilemma. The fact that you're using my argument against Conda to illustrate why tier list discussion is bad is a major logical fallacy. Your rule is also pretty silly; people don't debate because they want to convince their opponents.They debate because they want to convince their audience.

Anyway i'm done. If you guys don't want to ban relevant insight from knowledgeable players than that's whatever. Have fun iterating the same dull points over and over again.

"Mario is a good character!"

"Actually, Mario is actually bottom 5 and here's why"

Tier lists lead to arguments--both about tier structure and the validity of the list (who is posting it, why is it being posted, what data is it based on; is it even needed?). This takes attention away from actual issues (like my post and yours are doing--sorry @ Shaya ).

On the subject of debate: most of the time, the only audience you're going to convince is the one that already supports you. To convince people who have an opinion contrary to yours, you need to present new information or information from a different angle.

If the sole purpose of your post is to show why someone else's logic doesn't correctly address yours and you aren't trying to correct misinformation, then you should probably Ctrl+A and Backspace that post. Mario is in fact a good example of this: sure, I think that Mario is decent in this game and I could be arguing with A2ZOMG right now about his numerous posts on Mario, but it would be purely to prove a point, arguing little details about the subjective value of fireball and capes, and do very little for the edification of the community. Will my argument with A2ZOMG about whether or not Mario's fireball is better than X projectile actually do anything? Will it lead people to using Mario's fireball in a different way? No; it brings nothing new or useful. It could, but that's an off-chance, and it's more productive to drop points, acknowledge insights, and move on.

As for moving on... I am very interested in the thoughts about Peach that have been going around, but I don't know much about her tools and a quick glance at the Peach forum also didn't tell me that much. What can this character do?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Shulk has to play respectfully against Dash Klaw and Flame Choke. Also he is not reactively countering most of DK's pokes or Bowser's Jab. Ike likely struggles slightly more than the others, but he has better standard grab reward than the other heavies and he gets Eruption 2 to edgeguard Shulk very safely. Plus Shulk also has to play respectfully around Ike's counter as well when approaching.

speaking of dash claw did you know it has zero landing lag? like landing after a short hop cancels the attack to go into ...well everything?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Tier lists lead to arguments--both about tier structure and the validity of the list (who is posting it, why is it being posted, what data is it based on; is it even needed?). This takes attention away from actual issues (like my post and yours are doing--sorry @ Shaya ).

On the subject of debate: most of the time, the only audience you're going to convince is the one that already supports you. To convince people who have an opinion contrary to yours, you need to present new information or information from a different angle.

If the sole purpose of your post is to show why someone else's logic doesn't correctly address yours and you aren't trying to correct misinformation, then you should probably Ctrl+A and Backspace that post. Mario is in fact a good example of this: sure, I think that Mario is decent in this game and I could be arguing with A2ZOMG right now about his numerous posts on Mario, but it would be purely to prove a point, arguing little details about the subjective value of fireball and capes, and do very little for the edification of the community. Will my argument with A2ZOMG about whether or not Mario's fireball is better than X projectile actually do anything? Will it lead people to using Mario's fireball in a different way? No; it brings nothing new or useful. It could, but that's an off-chance, and it's more productive to drop points, acknowledge insights, and move on.

As for moving on... I am very interested in the thoughts about Peach that have been going around, but I don't know much about her tools and a quick glance at the Peach forum also didn't tell me that much. What can this character do?

Peach has strong damage per hit, good aerial hitboxes, fast ground moves, throw combos, ITEM TOSSING, Up-B can't be edgeguarded, and floating is sorta BS for neutral and avoiding traps. Easy reasons why she's a very good character when the things that were more BS than this from Brawl were generally nerfed.

speaking of dash claw did you know it has zero landing lag? like landing after a short hop cancels the attack to go into ...well everything?

I haven't seen a video of this, but if it's anything like Brawl autocanceled SideB except with forward momentum, I would readily accept Bowser as a competitively significant threat.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Tier lists lead to arguments--both about tier structure and the validity of the list (who is posting it, why is it being posted, what data is it based on; is it even needed?). This takes attention away from actual issues (like my post and yours are doing--sorry @ Shaya ).

On the subject of debate: most of the time, the only audience you're going to convince is the one that already supports you. To convince people who have an opinion contrary to yours, you need to present new information or information from a different angle.

If the sole purpose of your post is to show why someone else's logic doesn't correctly address yours and you aren't trying to correct misinformation, then you should probably Ctrl+A and Backspace that post. Mario is in fact a good example of this: sure, I think that Mario is decent in this game and I could be arguing with A2ZOMG right now about his numerous posts on Mario, but it would be purely to prove a point, arguing little details about the subjective value of fireball and capes, and do very little for the edification of the community. Will my argument with A2ZOMG about whether or not Mario's fireball is better than X projectile actually do anything? Will it lead people to using Mario's fireball in a different way? No; it brings nothing new or useful. It could, but that's an off-chance, and it's more productive to drop points, acknowledge insights, and move on.

As for moving on... I am very interested in the thoughts about Peach that have been going around, but I don't know much about her tools and a quick glance at the Peach forum also didn't tell me that much. What can this character do?

Let me get this straight:

You are saying that the debate about whether or not tier lists detract from conversation, therefore proving that tier lists detract from conversation?

This isn't circular reasoning or anything. Nope.

 

[Locke 06]

This is a great example of a likely bad matchup, but I'm very skeptical it's 8-2.

Let's compare it Jigglypuff's 2-8 matchup in Brawl against G&W.

There are a lot of similarities. G&W dominated Jigglypuff with a superior bair, but his bair was much more superior than MM's it. Additionally, G&W had his signature, uniquely high horizontal deceleration that made it extra effective to space with. MM shouldn't be THAT oppressive, and Jigglypuff's mobility advantage does allow her some ability to cope with superior aerials.

MM u-tilt does decimate Jiggs at low %s, just like G&W smashes in Brawl. However, it does not have the range advantage.

Jiggs is otherwise marginally better in Smash 4 than Brawl; Pound is less safe, but shield damage is much more rewarding. Rest is significantly stronger--which is more important to Jiggs in bad matchups when she is desperate and taking risks is more appealing.

MM does have some advantages G&W didn't; u-smash is a nice tool here, uair is potent, metal blade is always good, and lemons are interesting. He can probably rush cancel Jiggs dair too! But, at the end of the day, I can't see this matchup going nearly as bad for Jigglypuff as the Brawl G&W matchup.

I like the comparisons you made, but G&W doesn't have shield-drop u-tilt or the mid-range game like MM. I didn't follow Brawl competitively, so I don't know how bad that matchup really was, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

The uppercut comes out in 6 frames, which is just scary fast for KO move like that. Any pound that doesn't break a shield or doesn't connect will likely get punished with an uppercut. You use it as a shield/whiff punish, unlike G&W's brawl smashes. For instance, if she's approaching with FAir or NAir and you shield, if she didn't space the FAir, she gets a utilt. Also, the horizontal range of the sweetspot utilt is pretty underestimated, since he takes 1 step forward to unleash it. It's not great, by any means, but it's better than Luigi's up-B sweet spot.

Rest is improved, but Mega Man is also pretty heavy. I just went into training mode and she has to get Mega Man to 67% before she can kill with rest. Any lower, and he can fast fall down and u-tilt her. I'm surprised at this finding... because it means u-tilt kills her before she can kill with rest.

I'm starting to feel more confident about the 8-2...

Edit: Sorry, utilt comes out on frame 6. He's invincible from frames 5-8.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Peach has good aerial hitboxes, fast ground moves, throw combos, ITEM TOSSING, Up-B can't be edgeguarded, and floating is sorta BS for neutral and avoiding traps. Easy reasons why she's a very good character when the things that were more BS than this from Brawl were generally nerfed.

I haven't seen a video of this, but if it's anything like Brawl autocanceled SideB except with forward momentum, I would readily accept Bowser as a competitively significant threat.

it its exactally as you imagine it my friend if you can test it as well to back me up ( if you have the custom of course)

 

[NairWizard]

Let me get this straight:

You are saying that the debate about whether or not tier lists detract from conversation, therefore proving that tier lists detract from conversation?

This isn't circular reasoning or anything. Nope.

There's nothing circular about it. If whenever we discuss a tier list there are going to be half a dozen people saying "Ugh tier lists!" and that's going to lead to an irrelevant debate, then clearly posting the tier list causes irrelevant debate. Just *mention* of tiers at this point has people divided about whether or not we are ready to have tiers and talking about *that* instead of talking about characters. Please tell me where the logical fallacy in this reasoning is.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There's nothing circular about it. If whenever we discuss a tier list there are going to be half a dozen people saying "Ugh tier lists!" and that's going to lead to an irrelevant debate, then clearly posting the tier list causes irrelevant debate. Just *mention* of tiers at this point has people divided about whether or not we are ready to have tiers and talking about *that* instead of talking about characters. Please tell me where the logical fallacy in this reasoning is.

is not this irrelevant debate because of teir lists.

 

[Locke 06]

Anyone else want to weigh in on vs ? This seems like a topic that could use the thoughts of someone who plays Puff somewhat competitively... or just more than 2 people talking about it.

 

[NairWizard]

Peach has strong damage per hit, good aerial hitboxes, fast ground moves, throw combos, ITEM TOSSING, Up-B can't be edgeguarded, and floating is sorta BS for neutral and avoiding traps. Easy reasons why she's a very good character when the things that were more BS than this from Brawl were generally nerfed.

I haven't seen a video of this, but if it's anything like Brawl autocanceled SideB except with forward momentum, I would readily accept Bowser as a competitively significant threat.

Whoa why can up-b not be edgeguarded? Am I missing some property of it?

Also on subject of Bowser, dash claw is the reason that I suggested earlier that Bowser with customs beats Rosalina. What does Rosalina do against a flying fortress that can can ignore Luma with his up-b (the horizontally moving one) and rush at her from the air? Legitimate question.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There's nothing circular about it. If whenever we discuss a tier list there are going to be half a dozen people saying "Ugh tier lists!" and that's going to lead to an irrelevant debate, then clearly posting the tier list causes irrelevant debate. Just *mention* of tiers at this point has people divided about whether or not we are ready to have tiers and talking about *that* instead of talking about characters. Please tell me where the logical fallacy in this reasoning is.

First, there wouldn't be a conversation to have if people would just stop ******** every time they perceive a minor infraction of the rules. That's not your job. It's @ Shaya 's and he doesn't need everyone elses' help. If you see a post you think is against the rules, use the report function. Don't go on a white knight moral crusade against forum rule violations. It's a waste of time. Report and move on. The problem here is that you all think it's your job to steer conversation in directions that you think are appropriate when in fact that is totally subjective, and not your call to begin with.

The forum rules on smashboards have long been only loosely enforced because sometimes they aren't necessary and sometimes it's ok to post a tier list. Let the mods handle it.

Second, the discussion about whether or not we're ready to have tiers will happen (and have happened) independently of whether or not tier lists are posted.

Third, if it isn't circular logic it is nearly Orwellian or at best draconian. "Your discussion about whether or not this rule makes sense is exactly the kind of thing this rule is here to prevent. Off with your heads!"

 

[A2ZOMG]

Whoa why can up-b not be edgeguarded? Am I missing some property of it?

Also on subject of Bowser, dash claw is the reason that I suggested earlier that Bowser with customs beats Rosalina. What does Rosalina do against a flying fortress that can can ignore Luma with his up-b (the horizontally moving one) and rush at her from the air? Legitimate question.

I can't think of a character that has a projectile or disjointed hitbox that can really contest Peach Up-B. Except Pikachu with Thunder.

 

[meleebrawler]

Anyone else want to weigh in on vs ? This seems like a topic that could use the thoughts of someone who plays Puff somewhat competitively... or just more than 2 people talking about it.

Megaman will have to use his projectiles wisely so as to not give Jiggly
to many opportunities to close in. Leaf Shield can really screw with
Jiggly's jump ins as Megaman can safely block without faer of being
grabbed easily, though you certainly won't be gimping her with it
like you can with some others.

A good Jiggly can gimp YOU quite easily with Wall of Pain
tactics, considering that Megaman can't alter his recovery trajectory
too well unless he's running Beat.

 

[Luco]

I don't have a strong personal opinion of that matchup is but it is one that custom moves will make a lot easier for Lucario since piercing aura sphere exists. Normal AS loses completely its uses there, even the charge isn't usable because of Luma. It probably is a negative matchup yes but not anywhere near a wreckage.

Would it be correct to assume piercing aura sphere just goes through stuff and that's its main property?

I feel like in neutral, it's hard for quite a lot of campy characters to do anything against Rosaluma because of the GP which is covering her 90% of the time (I saw a match between fox and Rosaluma and fox just starts shooting for 10 seconds straight and Rosalina's just sitting there and at the end of it had taken a grand total of 0% with the luma minimally damaged). The uses for these projectiles will be rarer than normal and will be used in edge-guarding to dorce a reaction but even then considering the cooldown lag on things such as AS (which isn't a lot, mind you), Rosaluma might still be able to GP on reaction and get away with it unpunished.

GP is actually the bane of my existence in this game. More like GG.

Welp.

 

[Locke 06]

I can't think of a character that has a projectile or disjointed hitbox that can really contest Peach Up-B. Except Pikachu with Thunder.

I'll just name drop for his Dair... but I also don't want to seem like that guy who thinks Mega Man is god tier.

Megaman will have to use his projectiles wisely so as to not give Jiggly
to many opportunities to close in. Leaf Shield can really screw with
Jiggly's jump ins as Megaman can safely block without faer of being
grabbed easily, though you certainly won't be gimping her with it
like you can with some others.

A good Jiggly can gimp YOU quite easily with Wall of Pain
tactics, considering that Megaman can't alter his recovery trajectory
too well unless he's running Beat.

Leaf shield isn't really a great defensive tool... the hit stun off of it is probably less than the landing lag of any aerial that Jiggly has, so it's actually to her advantage to get hit by one after jumping in with an aerial. Leaf shield gimping Jiggly actually sounds like a good idea, since she'll be stuck in footstool free fall for a while.

Mega Man's recovery trajectory can be quite complex. Yes, he has the high vertical leap, but if Jigglypuff commits to edge guarding low, you can just go over her. Especially with conserving double jump until after you up-B, there are a lot of different trajectories you can use to get back to the stage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I can't think of a character that has a projectile or disjointed hitbox that can really contest Peach Up-B. Except Pikachu with Thunder.

Charizard's Flame Cannon?

Possibly Ike's Eruption 3 though I see that being close. Eruption 2's windbox might do the trick.

Ness's Up B?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think tier list discussion can be incredibly productive if the tier list is well thought out and organized fairly well, and from what I've seen, for the most part it is.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

First, there wouldn't be a conversation to have if people would just stop *****ing every time they perceive a minor infraction of the rules. That's not your job. It's @ Shaya 's and he doesn't need everyone elses' help. If you see a post you think is against the rules, use the report function. Don't go on a white knight moral crusade against forum rule violations. It's a waste of time. Report and move on. The problem here is that you all think it's your job to steer conversation in directions that you think are appropriate when in fact that is totally subjective, and not your call to begin with.

The forum rules on smashboards have long been only loosely enforced because sometimes they aren't necessary and sometimes it's ok to post a tier list. Let the mods handle it.

Second, the discussion about whether or not we're ready to have tiers will happen (and have happened) independently of whether or not tier lists are posted.

Third, if it isn't circular logic it is nearly Orwellian or at best draconian. "Your discussion about whether or not this rule makes sense is exactly the kind of thing this rule is here to prevent. Off with your heads!"

lol should this apply to real life as well. there is nothing wrong with saying somthing against the rules its when people try to take the initiative on there own when it gets problematic. difference between informing and enforcing

 

[NairWizard]

The problem here is that you all think it's your job to steer conversation in directions that you think are appropriate when in fact that is totally subjective, and not your call to begin with.

Last post on this subject from me, regardless of what follows. Not sure why you think I'm trying to enforce any rules, or how this is about rules at all. Influencing the direction of a conversation is not the same as directing it, and everyone in this topic is equally free to influence the direction of conversation (as you have influenced it by posting your tier list). Of course I am trying to influence the direction of the conversation away from tier lists by requesting that we not post them because I think that the conversation will be better if we discuss something else, or if we at least justify our observations. This is the same reason that we've been trying to stay away from the Mario topic.

 

[Spirst]

Megaman will have to use his projectiles wisely so as to not give Jiggly
to many opportunities to close in. Leaf Shield can really screw with
Jiggly's jump ins as Megaman can safely block without faer of being
grabbed easily, though you certainly won't be gimping her with it
like you can with some others.

Jigglypuff not being able to utilize rising pounds to aid her recovery as she could in previous iterations makes a leaf shield gimp much more feasible, actually.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Last post on this subject from me, regardless of what follows. Not sure why you think I'm trying to enforce any rules, or how this is about rules at all. Influencing the direction of a conversation is not the same as directing it, and everyone in this topic is equally free to influence the direction of conversation (as you have influenced it by posting your tier list). Of course I am trying to influence the direction of the conversation away from tier lists by requesting that we not post them because I think that the conversation will be better if we discuss something else, or if we at least justify our observations. This is the same reason that we've been trying to stay away from the Mario topic.

shhhhh! don't speak of whom shall not be named. it... beckons him.

 

[NairWizard]

I can't think of a character that has a projectile or disjointed hitbox that can really contest Peach Up-B. Except Pikachu with Thunder.

Can't you ledgedrop b-air with Marth, Bowser, etc.?

Mario can edgeguard Peach with d-air

 

[ZHMT]

There is no way Puff vs MM is 8-2. If Puff plays properly she won't be getting hit by utilt. She shouldn't be getting hit by moves out of shield much at all actually. Also Rest is far more reliable than people make it out to be. I'm pretty sure Jiggs can weave in with a nair and go through Leaf Shield and hit MM, especially if she catches its cooldown. The matchup might be in MMs advantage but no way at all its 8-2. Matchup advantages should be based on high level play and hitting Puff out of shield for her misspacing an aerial is a mistake she shouldn't often be doing. Also Jiggs fair goes through Leaf Shield as well.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I haven't seen a video of this, but if it's anything like Brawl autocanceled SideB except with forward momentum, I would readily accept Bowser as a competitively significant threat.

I'll tell it to you like this, you land from a custom Side-B with bowser and you can immediately act with no lag. You can use it to slide off platforms, slide ACROSS platforms if you do it right, it's basically a FREE airdash with either a command grab or a standard hitbox.

The best part is you can pick between Side-B 2 or Side-B 3 depending on the stage. Side-B 2 is IMO better on battlefield for platform sliding and there's less distance you need thanks to platforms, plus it remains a command grab so you can scoop with it.

Side-B 3 is probably better for FD and Omega to attempt to get around camping because it can clear FD in 2 solid airdashes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can't you ledgedrop b-air with Marth, Bowser, etc.?

Mario can edgeguard Peach with d-air

There are no invincible ledge drop shenanigans in this game.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also to add on to why Bowser's side-B customs are amazing, you can do them MULTIPLE TIMES in the air, BOTH of them. You can use them to literally weave back and forth if you're recovering from a high angle, and you can use them for recovery too. Did I mention Side-B 3 has armor I think? Another good reason to pick it! His Side-B customs man...

They're really, REALLY ****ing good. A very big part of the reason I am looking to sub Bowser because these moves make an already solid character even better and they're just great.

 

[Locke 06]

There is no way Puff vs MM is 8-2. If Puff plays properly she won't be getting hit by utilt. She shouldn't be getting hit by moves out of shield much at all actually. Also Rest is far more reliable than people make it out to be. I'm pretty sure Jiggs can weave in with a nair and go through Leaf Shield and hit MM, especially if she catches its cooldown. The matchup might be in MMs advantage but no way at all its 8-2. Matchup advantages should be based on high level play and hitting Puff out of shield for her misspacing an aerial is a mistake she shouldn't often be doing. Also Jiggs fair goes through Leaf Shield as well.

Okay... leaf shield isn't really a shield. I think people should get that out of their heads. You can easily hit through it.

Jiggs' problem approaching comes because of lemons, metal blades, and (if we're using customs) danger wrap is really annoying against people who like to jump in due to it's odd angle (45 degrees up and away). This is where the bulk of the matchup problem occurs, because if she's playing safely like she normally does, jumping right outside of melee range of most characters, she's going to be eating lemons, because that's where Mega Man's lemons reign supreme.

Mistakes happen, even in high level play. If at 63%, you have to start playing perfectly, that's a disadvantage that should be noted. Shield grabbing still occurs in high level play, correct? (this is a legitimate question that I do not know the answer to)

 

[ChikoLad]

Whoa why can up-b not be edgeguarded? Am I missing some property of it?

Also on subject of Bowser, dash claw is the reason that I suggested earlier that Bowser with customs beats Rosalina. What does Rosalina do against a flying fortress that can can ignore Luma with his up-b (the horizontally moving one) and rush at her from the air? Legitimate question.

I don't know...just not get hit by it and punish him afterwards?

I swear, people will overlook the simplest things in order to say X character beats Y character...

-------------

On an unrelated note, I've really been enjoying the variety in Sheik's customs.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Also to add on to why Bowser's side-B customs are amazing, you can do them MULTIPLE TIMES in the air, BOTH of them. You can use them to literally weave back and forth if you're recovering from a high angle, and you can use them for recovery too. Did I mention Side-B 3 has armor I think? Another good reason to pick it! His Side-B customs man...

They're really, REALLY ****ing good. A very big part of the reason I am looking to sub Bowser because these moves make an already solid character even better and they're just great.

my god finally someone noticed. it took a while before i caught any ones attention with this. side three is arguable greater for combks as well. making follow ups to standard jab into side b at low percents. as well as the canceling shinanigans for crazy combo strings. and on a power house like bowser. that could mean 60% of of simple strings its scary stuff man. shiek has got competition i tell ya.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Okay... leaf shield isn't really a shield. I think people should get that out of their heads. You can easily hit through it.

Jiggs' problem approaching comes because of lemons, metal blades, and (if we're using customs) danger wrap is really annoying against people who like to jump in due to it's odd angle (45 degrees up and away). This is where the bulk of the matchup problem occurs, because if she's playing safely like she normally does, jumping right outside of melee range of most characters, she's going to be eating lemons, because that's where Mega Man's lemons reign supreme.

Mistakes happen, even in high level play. If at 63%, you have to start playing perfectly, that's a disadvantage that should be noted. Shield grabbing still occurs in high level play, correct? (this is a legitimate question that I do not know the answer to)

Shield-grabbing is still a thing, yes, but not a lot of people fall for it unless they goof up their spacing or their move choice (lot of unsafe attacks on shields). These things do happen, though.

Also, Mega Man's lemons/pellets aren't that great. As D3, I either trade with them (which is almost always in my favor) or beat them outright. They don't seem to have a lot of hitstun, either.

Smooth Criminal

 

[san.]

DK's electrical punch is quite great. You can fully charge it in the time it takes to full hop. There is so little lag that you can short hop punch and react right afterwards or punch towards someone's getup and have the frame advantage to tilt. It also has great range, especially with a turnaround B, and reliably kills around 100-110%.

 

[Locke 06]

Shield-grabbing is still a thing, yes, but not a lot of people fall for it unless they goof up their spacing or their move choice (lot of unsafe attacks on shields).

Also, Mega Man's lemons/pellets aren't that great. As D3, I either trade (which is almost always in my favor) with them or beat them outright. They don't seem to have a lot of hitstun, either.

Smooth Criminal

Lemons have next to 0 hitstun, this is true. How are you trading with them/beating them outright? The reason why lemons are so good is because of the mobility they allow while firing. Being able to retreat while Nairing with that kind of range... it's like a Z-air, but you can do it on the ground.

 

[NairWizard]

I don't know...just not get hit by it and punish him afterwards?

I swear, people will overlook the simplest things in order to say X character beats Y character...

It isn't as simple as that (you can say this about any move in the game...). Bowser can act almost immediately out of the side-b, and his jab is strong and fast. Rosalina doesn't have the aerial mobility to deal with Bowser rushing at her like this if she's already off the ground, either. On the ground, she is rather tall, and if Luma isn't with her then her diagonal hitboxes from the ground aren't very good either (up-tilt and angled f-smash when Luma are close are good choices to stuff Bowser's approach here).

Then you have the up-b. This thing goes through Luma and can hit Rosalina out of her non-disjointed tilts, and if the stage is big enough Bowser will end up far enough away to avoid a punish (you can try with the custom single-shot starbit, but Bowser can get block in most situations: also note that regular starbits will block this move from going through Luma, so there's that). Actually, if you side-b toward Rosalina you might be able to up-b to get away before she hits you. I haven't tested this.

Combine this with how early Rosalina dies and how easy Luma is for Bowser to get rid of with his generally strong attacks (and firebreath, which is safe from Rosalina's punish attempts), and I think you have a fairly rough matchup. Rosalina does juggle Bowser pretty well with up-airs, but side-b can actually even be an escape from this (which I hadn't thought of until now).

 

[Spinosaurus]

There is no way Puff vs MM is 8-2. If Puff plays properly she won't be getting hit by utilt. She shouldn't be getting hit by moves out of shield much at all actually. Also Rest is far more reliable than people make it out to be. I'm pretty sure Jiggs can weave in with a nair and go through Leaf Shield and hit MM, especially if she catches its cooldown. The matchup might be in MMs advantage but no way at all its 8-2. Matchup advantages should be based on high level play and hitting Puff out of shield for her misspacing an aerial is a mistake she shouldn't often be doing. Also Jiggs fair goes through Leaf Shield as well.

EDIT: I can't read. Disregard.