Character Competitive Impressions

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

It's always a pleasure, Shiny Mewtwo <3

Lucario is certainly obnoxious, but I feel as though he'll have a few match-ups that won't stack in his favour because he'll get killed early enough/because characters will be able to deal with his fundamentals. His range has buffed him to the max, but I feel like characters who will win against him will have won for similar reasons as those who beat him in Brawl.

Though the more I think about it, the more I think range was one of the reasons he was able to lose certain MUs in brawl. Hmmm.... it's hard. Something about Lucario doesn't strike me as godlike; but on the other hand i'm not sure whether the increased range will bypass most of those MUs he never used to win... dunno.

Luco! It's been so long!

Yeah Lucario is a weird character. I can't wait until I get a chance to face a good one. It's going to be interesting for sure.

 

[meleebrawler]

You're talking about Mario again! You're falling for his trap!

This is how he gains his strength!

Oh no; I was part of his master plan all along!

I don't think he's a troll. He does have some valid
points, like Mario's low DPH and mediocre recovery.
It's just that, whenever ANYONE says anything even
REMOTELY positive about Mario, he has to discredit it.

A2Z, you may not like Mario in Smash 4, but you're not helping
him by p****** on the people who are trying to make him work.
Waiting for patches is NOT how we do things in Smash.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I don't think he's a troll. He does have some valid
points, like Mario's low DPH and mediocre recovery.
It's just that, whenever ANYONE says anything even
REMOTELY positive about Mario, he has to discredit it.

A2Z, you may not like Mario in Smash 4, but you're not helping
him by p****** on the people who are trying to make him work.
Waiting for patches is NOT how we do things in Smash.

nyani's mario dose not need anymore buffs

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't think A2Z is a troll, I'm glad he's part of this discussion. (Just in case that was unclear.)

 

[Road Death Wheel]

ima bring up this bowser thing once per page till at least someone notices

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think he's a troll. He does have some valid
points, like Mario's low DPH and mediocre recovery.
It's just that, whenever ANYONE says anything even
REMOTELY positive about Mario, he has to discredit it.

A2Z, you may not like Mario in Smash 4, but you're not helping
him by p****** on the people who are trying to make him work.
Waiting for patches is NOT how we do things in Smash.

I absolutely hate misinformation, furthermore. You do not know how much I resent CT Zero for misleading me. I would have gladly believed Mario was good from the impressions he gave, until I realized that he had really terrible and inaccurate observations for several characters.

If anything, I appreciate most of the tournament results with Mario because it means videos. And I've already cited that Mario does have a few high tier matchups that clearly are not terrible for him by design (Rosalina and Yoshi are very winnable for him but not in his favor).

I also don't think you realize how much I'm investing into the character in spite of my negative impressions.

 

[Loota]

Lucario is certainly obnoxious, but I feel as though he'll have a few match-ups that won't stack in his favour because he'll get killed early enough/because characters will be able to deal with his fundamentals. His range has buffed him to the max, but I feel like characters who will win against him will have won for similar reasons as those who beat him in Brawl.

Though the more I think about it, the more I think range was one of the reasons he was able to lose certain MUs in brawl. Hmmm.... it's hard. Something about Lucario doesn't strike me as godlike; but on the other hand i'm not sure whether the increased range will bypass most of those MUs he never used to win... dunno.

Besided the new dash attack and sideB, Lucario's range has heavily been nerfed from Brawl and the attacks don't even linger anymore. Visually they seem much longer than they actually are but the tip of the aura blast effect present in many of his moves doesn't have a hitbox at all, that fsmash is especially deceptive. It's really hard to outrange anyone anymore, he mainly has to rely on his good footsies, sideB and AS (and of course, being hella scary on high %) to get anything done on neutral. Having a legit platform cancel doesn't hurt either.

But yeah, the range is gone. I suspect it's all because of Shulk accidentally doing Monado Purge and inflicting Aura Seal on Lucario in the Smash 4 tryouts.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I absolutely hate misinformation, furthermore. You do not know how much I resent CT Zero for misleading me. I would have gladly believed Mario was good from the impressions he gave, until I realized that he had really terrible and inaccurate observations for several characters.

Top players are not always as knowledgeable as they would want you to believe. I'll listen to a smart opinion, top player or not. CT Zero's observations were based on mere days of play, they were worth very little.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Top players are not always as knowledgeable as they would want you to believe. I'll listen to a smart opinion, top player or not. CT Zero's observations were based on mere days of play, they were worth very little.

Zero does not main mario. i feel nyani would be able to give better info.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zero does not main mario. i feel nyani would be able to give better info.

She has good information on customs. But realistically I don't actually see her as understanding Mario's options that well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Xoo6_ppFk&feature=youtu.be&a

Even though Atomsk is clearly a better player than her, she could have won this set by simply picking better moves for punishes.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Also this. This is true.

Then it was brilliant!

 

[Conda]

She has good information on customs. But realistically I don't actually see her as understanding Mario's options that well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Xoo6_ppFk&feature=youtu.be&a

Even though Atomsk is clearly a better player than her, she could have won this set by simply picking better moves for punishes.

It is strange, however, to have this sort of discussion. It's due to low players numbers of course, but it's interesting. Where individual players are treated as the representation of their character, since there's nobody else to look at really. Cannot wait until representation grows, as our focus on the main three streams and the same few players within makes our discussion very strange indeed.

I do understand your points though, and they are good ones.

There's a great Japanese Samus player with a playstyle we haven't really seen, and it's worth discussing. It's outside of the realm of stuff we've been talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC-NAuwq_4I

 

[Road Death Wheel]

She has good information on customs. But realistically I don't actually see her as understanding Mario's options that well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3Xoo6_ppFk&feature=youtu.be&a

Even though Atomsk is clearly a better player than her, she could have won this set by simply picking better moves for punishes.

did nyani have the jp version? cuz if not in that video she did not jave the game very long.

edit lol we said mario's name to much hes like bettle juice.

 

[KenMeister]

It is strange, however, to have this sort of discussion. It's due to low players numbers of course, but it's interesting. Where individual players are treated as the representation of their character, since there's nobody else to look at really. Cannot wait until representation grows, as our focus on the main three streams and the same few players within makes our discussion very strange indeed.

I do understand your points though, and they are good ones.

There's a great Japanese Samus player with a playstyle we haven't really seen, and it's worth discussing. It's outside of the realm of stuff we've been talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC-NAuwq_4I

So from what I'm seeing, people have reeeeally been underrating bombs. They're put to so much good usage in this, it's crazy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It is strange, however, to have this sort of discussion. It's due to low players numbers of course, but it's interesting. Where individual players are treated as the representation of their character, since there's nobody else to look at really. Cannot wait until representation grows, as our focus on the main three streams and the same few players within makes our discussion very strange indeed.

I do understand your points though, and they are good ones.

There's a great Japanese Samus player with a playstyle we haven't really seen, and it's worth discussing. It's outside of the realm of stuff we've been talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC-NAuwq_4I

I have stated before, I think Samus is mid tier.

Good at getting out of juggles and has an amazing recovery which allows much flexibility offstage. And Charge Shot and Zair are both incredible. In short while she does have limited close options, she survives long and capitalizes well and mostly isn't vulnerable to most dumb setups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

My tier list:

1. I'm probably wrong about something, please don't whine about it.
2. Characters are not really ordered within tiers, except that I thought about characters listed first fastest as I was putting them in their respective tiers, which might say something or might not, I dunno.
3. C- tier in Mid tier might go to low tier, but I think the offer considerably more than my low tier.

High:
A:
A-:
B:

MID
B-:
C:
C-:

LOW
D:

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, SAKURAI?:
F:

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ugh are we seriously supposed to read and discuss this? Anyhow there is Japanese Luigi footage somewhere on SHI-Gaming. And to make a long story short he has good fireballs and damage per hit. He is likely an underrated character and customs help his recovery a lot.

 

[HiNiTe]

Ugh are we seriously supposed to read and discuss this?

Discuss what? His personal tier list? I seriously hope no one here posts their tier lists as if they are "true" to repesent the current metagame, it's just an easy way to format concisely your own personal thoughts in a way we can understand. Look at it and move on. Personally I like viewing these tier lists, I like to see everyone's opinions. And if you weren't talking about it, my point still stands in general.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes, that is basically it. It's just how I have the game crystalized in my own head atm and a starting point for potential new discussions. That's all. Don't make it something it isn't

 

[Solitude2IZ]

My tier list:

1. I'm probably wrong about something, please don't whine about it.
2. Characters are not really ordered within tiers, except that I thought about characters listed first fastest as I was putting them in their respective tiers, which might say something or might not, I dunno.
3. C- tier in Mid tier might go to low tier, but I think the offer considerably more than my low tier.

High:
A:
A-:
B:

MID
B-:
C:
C-:

LOW
D:

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, SAKURAI?:
F:

I'm leaning towards the same direction as this list for the most part. I'm comfortable with Diddy being there because of his moveset, and true combo potential. As for Doc and Olimar, they won't be moving anytime soon, they're, just awful, I'm sorry.

However, I wanted to ask why Pacman failed to make it on your list entirely. Sure, he's not "top-tier" material, he struggles to kill at lower percentages, but is not weak by any means.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm leaning towards the same direction as this list for the most part. I'm comfortable with Diddy being there because of his moveset, and true combo potential. As for Doc and Olimar, they won't be moving anytime soon, they're, just awful, I'm sorry.

However, I wanted to ask why Pacman failed to make it on your list entirely. Sure, he's not "top-tier" material, he struggles to kill at lower percentages, but is not weak by any means.

Who's pac man? JK, I just forgot him. He's there now.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

dunno olimar seems to be the ultimate rosa counter honestly

 

[Radical Larry]

I feel like Link, with the proper players, can be counted as a high to top tiered character, and no doubt he'll be going well at tournaments. In my experience, I do quite well with him through using the techniques and advanced combos with him, though I'm trying to discover some things new to him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I feel like Link, with the proper players, can be counted as a high to top tiered character, and no doubt he'll be going well at tournaments. In my experience, I do quite well with him through using the techniques and advanced combos with him, though I'm trying to discover some things new to him.

his bomb canceling is rediculous

 

[Conda]

Sorry, but I have to say it again. The endless "my tier list" posts are not helpful for discussion as all we respond with is who should be moved where etc. Please, let's stop with the early tier lists. It's not a good way to spur discussion.

There's more to discuss than who goes where tier-wise. We can't keep tossing our hypothesized lists out there as if we're hoping we're correct when we look back at it in two years. Nobody here is informed enough about the full roster and their potential metagame to make a hypothesized list that can in any way spur useful constructive discussion.

If you want your list to be rated, perhaps there should be a thread for that. Because it doesn't lead to the kind of discussion that helps anybody reading this thread.

People want to discuss characters in depth and things that are happening in the metagame, and people want to read that kind of discussion. People do not want to have an interesting-to-read discussion interrupted by random tier lists and placement debate.

Reddit is the place to post and read about random early hypothesized tier lists, and is a much better place for that kind of discussion. This thread is not the place to post or read about that.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sorry, but I have to say it again. The endless "my tier list" posts are not helpful for discussion as all we respond with is who should be moved where etc. Please, let's stop with the early tier lists. It's not a good way to spur discussion.

There's more to discuss than who goes where tier-wise. We can't keep tossing our hypothesized lists out there as if we're hoping we're correct when we look back at it in two years. Nobody here is informed enough about the full roster and their potential metagame to make a hypothesized list that can in any way spur useful constructive discussion.

If you want your list to be rated, perhaps there should be a thread for that. Because it doesn't lead to the kind of discussion that helps anybody reading this thread.

People want to discuss characters in depth and things that are happening in the metagame, and people want to read that kind of discussion. Reddit is the place to post and read about random early hypothesized tier lists, and is a much better place for that kind of discussion.

What I hoped in posting mine is that someone would say "hey, why do you put X character in Y tier?" And then we could talk about that character in depth for a little while. I'm not asking for a "rating." Anyone who has been around Smashboards for a while can probably tell you how little care about what other people think of my perspectives unless they have some kind of civil debate to have with me. I'm not interested in inflating my own ego by showing off how much I know about Smash Bros. I just like the game and like to talk about it, and like most people due to human genetic predisposition, I love lists.

Maybe you're right and maybe I was in error. Sorry about that.

 

[Conda]

What I hoped in posting mine is that someone would say "hey, why do you put X character in Y tier?" And then we could talk about that character in depth for a little while.

Maybe you're right and maybe I was in error. Sorry about that.

I u dear stand, but that's the kind of discussion I was speaking about. It works on reddit because not much else is spoken about, and some threads on this forum. But in a thread like this it simplifies depth of discussion and turns it it into logistical "move so and so up two spaces."

Someone who is enjoying reading this thread to learn about character competitive potential will stop enjoying the read once people start arguing over someone's arbitrary tier placements. "ZSS is better than sheik" and "Bowser isn't top tier lol" and so forth have been said enough, and don't lead to interesting discussion. That can last pages and kill potential for in depth topics to emerge.

It's like bringing up a celebrity gossip tabloid in the middle of a political discussion.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC-NAuwq_4I

I see a lot of potential in that down B.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't know enough about every character to argue a list really that isn't completely obscene without the creators train of thought also being posted.

The thing with a list is I don't know where the list maker is coming from. Some dude made a list with mewtwo on top followed by everyone else but there was some food for thought in his explanation of positions.

What I want to do when I get home is say what I think about each character so far, not on something objective but as a time stamp at what I thought of them now. Wish I had done that earlier because I don't remember how my perspective has evolved now.

I always felt positively about Brawler, ridicario but I should've figures out my initial thoughts on Falco when at the beginning of the game... I was fighting Falcos. Now its been forever since I fought a Falco.

 

[LostinpinK]

I believe we're all operating under customs are legal.
Innocent until banned or something like that, + a lot of the scene is trying to go with customs legal with their tourneys.
I believe only the japanese are rather anti-custom right now.

Just wanted to say that the french community isn't too keen on customs right now, though I'm trying to make things change. But since I'm a Palutena main, I'm kinda speaking on my own behalf haha.

Also do you guys have any videos of good falco players? I read your arguments on falco being high tier but I need to see him perform to be convinced. I'm really bad with him and no one in our community plays him.

 

[Radical Larry]

Just wanted to say that the french community isn't too keen on customs right now, though I'm trying to make things change. But since I'm a Palutena main, I'm kinda speaking on my own behalf haha.

Also do you guys have any videos of good falco players? I read your arguments on falco being high tier but I need to see him perform to be convinced. I'm really bad with him and no one in our community plays him.

Due to the incredible nerfs he had received, especially with his D-Air, I say he's no where near high tier. His power and speed took a drop, and even his knockback is bad now. His recovery may have been buffed, but it doesn't compensate for him having such a terrible game this time around.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just wanted to say that the french community isn't too keen on customs right now, though I'm trying to make things change. But since I'm a Palutena main, I'm kinda speaking on my own behalf haha.

Also do you guys have any videos of good falco players? I read your arguments on falco being high tier but I need to see him perform to be convinced. I'm really bad with him and no one in our community plays him.

yeah I haven't seen anything yet even from Japan except a guy who plays him on For Glory and believes he is weak.

I don't think Falco is actually hard to play though. You just need good basic spacing mostly. Setting up his KO moves is tricky, but not too bad due to his powerful Bair.

Due to the incredible nerfs he had received, especially with his D-Air, I say he's no where near high tier. His power and speed took a drop, and even his knockback is bad now. His recovery may have been buffed, but it doesn't compensate for him having such a terrible game this time around.

Falco was not nerfed that hard. Losing lasers sucks, but Falco has speed, range, and ridiculous damage per hit. His Smashes and Bair are great for both damage and kills. Also Reflector is kinda insane esp Void Reflector which does 9%

 

[PKNintendo]

Sorry, but I have to say it again. The endless "my tier list" posts are not helpful for discussion as all we respond with is who should be moved where etc. Please, let's stop with the early tier lists. It's not a good way to spur discussion.

There's more to discuss than who goes where tier-wise. We can't keep tossing our hypothesized lists out there as if we're hoping we're correct when we look back at it in two years. Nobody here is informed enough about the full roster and their potential metagame to make a hypothesized list that can in any way spur useful constructive discussion.

If you want your list to be rated, perhaps there should be a thread for that. Because it doesn't lead to the kind of discussion that helps anybody reading this thread.

People want to discuss characters in depth and things that are happening in the metagame, and people want to read that kind of discussion. People do not want to have an interesting-to-read discussion interrupted by random tier lists and placement debate.

Reddit is the place to post and read about random early hypothesized tier lists, and is a much better place for that kind of discussion. This thread is not the place to post or read about that.

No, that's wrong.

SFP's tier list is acceptable because he's got a wide range of experiences in Smash at a level that most people don't. As a result, his opinion is more valid than yours because he can approach these issues from all angles. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about more than you. His intention was pretty obvious (we'd ask him about the placements) but you completely disregarded that.

Frankly i'm baffled you're calling out SFP when his tier list is the most reasonable one I've seen. At least it's not as sickeningly hopeful garbage tier lists that's been posted in this thread. If you wanted to shut down tier discussions you picked the wrong post to push your myopic agenda.

***

SFP, i'd like to know your reasoning behind the placements for Peach, Falco, Palutena and Pit. I feel as though the first 3 are too high, and the last character is too low.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Let's be serious though. How many characters really have a better ftilt than pit.

Can talk Falcos ground game... But pits ftilt.

dunno olimar seems to be the ultimate rosa counter honestly

WotutalkinboutWillis.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Let's be serious though. How many characters really have a better ftilt than pit.

Can talk Falcos ground game... But pits ftilt.



WotutalkinboutWillis.

Void Reflector is like an Ftilt on steroids

 

[Nocally]

My tier list:

1. I'm probably wrong about something, please don't whine about it.
2. Characters are not really ordered within tiers, except that I thought about characters listed first fastest as I was putting them in their respective tiers, which might say something or might not, I dunno.
3. C- tier in Mid tier might go to low tier, but I think the offer considerably more than my low tier.

High:
A:
A-:
B:

MID
B-:
C:
C-:

LOW
D:

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, SAKURAI?:
F:

I like this tier list quite a lo t(some questionable placings, but it's not important). People have to remember that tier placings shift all the time, so having a list like this to inform us about the current meta, might not be a bad idea. Of course these lists will change several times the next couple of months, but over time the updates will slow down and become semi-regular like the brawl and Melee tier lists, which also changed even years in to the future.

 

[Xuan Wu]

My tier list:

1. I'm probably wrong about something, please don't whine about it.
2. Characters are not really ordered within tiers, except that I thought about characters listed first fastest as I was putting them in their respective tiers, which might say something or might not, I dunno.
3. C- tier in Mid tier might go to low tier, but I think the offer considerably more than my low tier.

High:
A:
A-:
B:

MID
B-:
C:
C-:

LOW
D:

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING, SAKURAI?:
F:

Your list looks mostly consistent with the others I have seen. The ones that stood out to me, though, were Link, Ike, and Palutena.

Don't get me wrong, as an Ike main his placement on your list is a pleasant sight to see, considering that he is regarded by the vast majority as a candidate for bottom 10, or even bottom 5.

As for Link and Palutena, I see the former being consistently viewed as a mid, to even high, tier contender due to significant buffs, while the latter is generally seen as low to bottom tier; was her placement in your list due to factoring in custom moves?

Your explanations for the aforementioned characters would be most appreciated. ^-^

 

[Conda]

No, that's wrong.

SFP's tier list is acceptable because he's got a wide range of experiences in Smash at a level that most people don't. As a result, his opinion is more valid than yours because he can approach these issues from all angles. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about more than you. His intention was pretty obvious (we'd ask him about the placements) but you completely disregarded that.

Frankly i'm baffled you're calling out SFP when his tier list is the most reasonable one I've seen. At least it's not as sickeningly hopeful garbage tier lists that's been posted in this thread. If you wanted to shut down tier discussions you picked the wrong post to push your myopic agenda.

***

SFP, i'd like to know your reasoning behind the placements for Peach, Falco, Palutena and Pit. I feel as though the first 3 are too high, and the last character is too low.

This is not about whose tier list is more reputable. It's about this thread not being the place for tier list rating and hypothesizing. I am not insulting anybody, I am trying to help focus discussion and encourage healthy and useful discussion.

If you feel someone's tier list is worthy of discussion, then I fully support it being discussed somewhere. This is not the place for that though, no matter how cool the person is or how controversial or accurate their tier list seems.

We do not have the tools to discuss tier lists in any semblance of depth or constructiveness, so please let's not reduce this thread to that. Reddit is the place for that kind of discussion tbh. There is a lot of actual in depth impressions-based discussion that we could be having here instead, rather than echo chamber speculation and tier list rating.

 

[MikeyAM]

So, how good do you all think Lucario really is? People seem pretty comfortable putting him in the top 8 because rage + aura is pretty broken and his recovery is way buffed from Brawl, but I haven't seen anyone doing anything remarkable with him in tournaments yet.

Though I feel like he'll certainly be high tier, I'm curious if he's actually top 8 material. I am starting to feel like those claims are somewhat unfounded at this point.

 

[BBC7]

What's everyone's opinion of Mega Man? I personally think he's not as bad as many people say he is.

He has a safe option to deal damage in the form of pellets, and will especially benefit from C-Stick Nair because of that. He also has 9 kills moves: F-Smash, U-Smash, D-Smash, U-Tilt, Bair, Dair, Uair, Danger Wrap(Side B #2) and Back Throw, which give him plenty of options to kill in a game where only a few moves are designed to kill. That's also not counting that sweetspot Nair and Down B can potentially be considered viable gimps against characters with below-average recoveries such as Little Mac, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Fox, and Falco. Not to mention that U-Tilt and D-Smash can kill very early, while Mega Man takes time to kill because of hitstun cancelling, above-average weight and an overall reliable recovery. Metal Blade and Crash Bomber are rather fancy tools as well, Metal Blade can be turned into an item allowing for Z-Dropping, Glide Tossing and for 10% against certain characters, 15% against Charizard. Crash Bomber does a good job at forcing shields or approaches and I like it for that reason. I can't say that Mega Man is top-tier at this point, but he's definitely better than bottom. The most I can say is that I can beat my friends with Mega Man, although that still proves that Mega Man isn't Brawl Ganon or Melee Kirby considering my friends usually go to locals meaning they are good enough players to not lose to a low-tier. I'd say he's solid mid in my opinion.