Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Snake kinda was one of the ultimate CQC characters actually.
1. Poor recovery
2. Poor Approach
3. Solid counter play to all the other classes to force his preferred style of play (grenades + weight).
But that to me makes me feel like he is a grappler, he takes/trades hits and doesn't care, and comes out on top from single reads significantly better than most other types of characters. The best CQC characters do tend to be extremely fat and beat others just by out lasting them.

What makes the hybrids over powered? There's only two in that lot that seems to be top tier possibilities (Yoshi, Lucario). Zone Breakers have more top tier possibilities in there (Fox, Greninja, Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, Sonic).

I avoid the use of the phrase top tier for reason
Hybrids are "overpowered" because instead of let's say, being 50/50 capabilities between two classes, it's more like 60/60 or 75/75.
Falco has been much of a hybrid for two prior games, zone breaking, god tier CQC and long range capabilities. He was better at all three than just about everyone in the cast. This game things aren't so needlessly skewed (bar Sheik, who's just way too potent as a mid/long range zoner for her to fairly be the best rush down character in the game), so these hybrids tend to be something else + pretty heavy/don't die. Yoshi does everything Fox does, but better, and happens to be fat/has tons of grappler specs.

 

[Conda]

I know the acronym. But as shaya is categorizing possible class advantages over another in her categorization it would lead to that class having some general matchup.


On that matter what does cqc due to a zone break. Based on these class types wouldn't they find their home against long range zone?

As mentioned above, they aren't concrete classes. They're just vague grouping to help facilitate discussion, we probably shouldn't spend pages upon pages debating @ Shaya 's class list

Just use it as a way to make it easier to see the roster together as a whole, rather than separated into the perceived tier groupings.

 

[ChikoLad]

- "Rosalina's mobility is fine" - I didn't say it wasn't fine, I said that Bowser's was better, and it is. Rosalina's actual mobility is irrelevant when Bowser is on the stage because she's not comparing her mobility to anyone's but Bowser's. Bowser has a significant speed advantage over her, with these customs especially. More mobility, more weight, and more power aren't small advantages. Not that these advantages alone paint a picture of Bowser's victory in the matchup.

This would be a good point if the air game didn't exist, which Rosalina completely beats Bowser at (and getting him to the air is not hard in the slightest). Bowser absolutely does not beat her in aerial mobility, especially because he has poor vertical mobility. Custom Side B helps his horizontal mobility, but what Rosalina player would constantly stay on the same vertical level as Bowser, especially since she has such disjointable aerials?

Rosalina already has ways to approach with Luma out in front of her: Luma Warp adds an option that she didn't have while taking away another one, but she would be much better served by shrinking her size or increasing her weight via a custom, if she could do that, instead.

Luma Warp is significant though, because she can do literally anything out of it without delay. And since it has quick start up too, she can literally implement it into combos - knock someone forward, Luma Warp, Luma lands on top of the and stuns them, then can do whatever move you want from there, including KO moves. Not to mention that when Bowser is recovering, he cannot afford to not go straight for the stage in most cases, so it's very easy for Rosalina to float in tandem with him and land Luma on top of a recovering Bowser with Luma Warp.

-I don't think that Rosalina beats Spin Dash, especially not Hammer Spin Dash, but that's another point entirely. Sonic is probably her worst matchup.

I main Sonic too, and I can assuredly say that Spin Dash is not difficult to deal with. Much like ZSS's Down B, it's easy to shield it and counter from there. He can even be shield grabbed out of it.

He's also not the most difficult match-up for Rosalina at all. I can think of a good number of characters that are more difficult (ZSS being one).

Another custom we are ignoring that really helps against Bowser is Luma Guardian - Makes Luma a huge, invincible hitbox, and this greatly nerfs Bowser's tools against Luma, especially in combination with Luma Warp. Especially since so many of Bowser's attacks have a lot of lag and are also easy to see coming.

don't stress it to much this guy plays white knight to almost everything that might counter rosa really.

>Ignoring that I am against the notion she is broken
>Ignoring that I always try to help people out in the Rosalina Match-Up Discussion thread by suggesting ways to counter Rosalina

I'm not debating this point because I want to play white knight, I'm debating it because I have a lot of experience with the Bowser match up (I play with a Bowser main quite often, and have been playing with him since Brawl - he says Rosalina is like his "final boss"), and from this experience, I don't think Bowser beats her by virtue of two or three of his customs.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

As mentioned above, they aren't concrete classes. They're just vague grouping to help facilitate discussion, we probably shouldn't spend pages upon pages debating @ Shaya 's class list

Just use it as a way to make it easier to see the roster together as a whole, rather than separated into the perceived tier groupings.

I was focusing merely because it was a small group. I felt the aspects worth exploring

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake kinda was one of the ultimate CQC characters actually.
1. Poor recovery
2. Poor Approach
3. Solid counter play to all the other classes to force his preferred style of play (grenades + weight).
But that to me makes me feel like he is a grappler, he takes/trades hits and doesn't care, and comes out on top from single reads significantly better than most other types of characters. The best CQC characters do tend to be extremely fat and beat others just by out lasting them.



I avoid the use of the phrase top tier for reason
Hybrids are "overpowered" because instead of let's say, being 50/50 capabilities between two classes, it's more like 60/60 or 75/75.
Falco has been much of a hybrid for two prior games, zone breaking, god tier CQC and long range capabilities. He was better at all three than just about everyone in the cast. This game things aren't so needlessly skewed (bar Sheik, who's just way too potent as a mid/long range zoner for her to fairly be the best rush down character in the game), so these hybrids tend to be something else + pretty heavy/don't die. Yoshi does everything Fox does, but better, and happens to be fat/has tons of grappler specs.

I'm not sure I agree Yoshi does everything Fox does but better. I believe as the game evolves and players learn animations and proper procedural reactions for specific matchups, Yoshi will get slightly worse, and Fox will pull out ahead. Actually it will probably be incredibly close simply because Yoshi's Jab U-smash demands a crapton of respect, but Fox has a more complete neutral game than Yoshi that isn't going to eventually be hindered by reactive spotdodging.

Fox's aerials are better than Yoshi's for trades and footsies overall(Yoshi's B-air is not very disjointed, and only does 10% if you land all the hits, making it actually favorable for many characters to attempt contesting in neutral, and the rest of his aerials aren't as good for spacing). Though they are slightly worse for pressure on shield (Yoshi D-air...is unnecessarily stupid for some reason). More important is that Fox has a reflector, lasers (you aren't blocking these reactively), and a regular grab. He does get these in exchange for survivability and really easy KO confirms (though his physics are good for frame traps).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This would be a good point if the air game didn't exist, which Rosalina completely beats Bowser at (and getting him to the air is not hard in the slightest). Bowser absolutely does not beat her in aerial mobility, especially because he has poor vertical mobility. Custom Side B helps his horizontal mobility, but what Rosalina player would constantly stay on the same vertical level as Bowser, especially since she has such disjointable aerials?



Luma Warp is significant though, because she can do literally anything out of it without delay. And since it has quick start up too, she can literally implement it into combos - knock someone forward, Luma Warp, Luma lands on top of the and stuns them, then can do whatever move you want from there, including KO moves. Not to mention that when Bowser is recovering, he cannot afford to not go straight for the stage in most cases, so it's very easy for Rosalina to float in tandem with him and land Luma on top of a recovering Bowser with Luma Warp.



I main Sonic too, and I can assuredly say that Spin Dash is not difficult to deal with. Much like ZSS's Down B, it's easy to shield it and counter from there. He can even be shield grabbed out of it.

He's also not the most difficult match-up for Rosalina at all. I can think of a good number of characters that are more difficult (ZSS being one).

Another custom we are ignoring that really helps against Bowser is Luma Guardian - Makes Luma a huge, invincible hitbox, and this greatly nerfs Bowser's tools against Luma, especially in combination with Luma Warp. Especially since so many of Bowser's attacks have a lot of lag and are also easy to see coming.



>Ignoring that I am against the notion she is broken
>Ignoring that I always try to help people out in the Rosalina Match-Up Discussion thread by suggesting ways to counter Rosalina

I'm not debating this point because I want to play white knight, I'm debating it because I have a lot of experience with the Bowser match up (I play with a Bowser main quite often, and have been playing with him since Brawl - he says Rosalina is like his "final boss"), and from this experience, I don't think Bowser beats her by virtue of two or three of his customs.

look bowser has this man burst fire gives way more range to bowers fire on top of more damage (17% in a short blast) side b increases footsies on top of being super safe in air and bowser has one of the easyest time knock luma off the edge. its not a direct counter yeah but the match up is in bowsers favour. perhaps i have not faced a some great rosa's but im pretty sure i have and won with lesser characters like pit im sure bowser aint got a problem. well actually he does cuz its rosalina we are talking about here lol.

 

[cAm8ooo]

I'm not sure I agree Yoshi does everything Fox does but better. I believe as the game evolves and players learn animations and proper procedural reactions for specific matchups, Yoshi will get slightly worse, and Fox will pull out ahead. Actually it will probably be incredibly close simply because Yoshi's Jab U-smash demands a crapton of respect, but Fox has a more complete neutral game than Yoshi that isn't going to eventually be hindered by reactive spotdodging.

Fox's aerials are better than Yoshi's for trades and footsies overall(Yoshi's B-air is not very disjointed, and only does 10% if you land all the hits, making it actually favorable for many characters to attempt contesting in neutral, and the rest of his aerials aren't as good for spacing). Though they are slightly worse for pressure on shield (Yoshi D-air...is unnecessarily stupid for some reason). More important is that Fox has a reflector, lasers (you aren't blocking these reactively), and a regular grab. He does get these in exchange for survivability and really easy KO confirms (though his physics are good for frame traps).

Yoshi's aerials are amazing. I would say that B-air is actually his worst option when it comes to spacing. N-air is absolute god-like. I would even go as far to say that it is one of the best neutral airs in the entire game. It's hitbox stays out for days and is deceptively large, rising and fast falling as well as weaving in and out with his high air mobility make it amazing for spacing. Even safe on shield when weaving out.

Fair is also godlike. It has a huge hitbox, is fast, and groundbounces opponents for combos. It can also be made safe on shield by using it at its optimal range and weaving away. Other than maybe up-air, I dont believe any of Fox's aerials beat it out in a trade.

Not to mention Yoshi has so many tools to change his momentum in the air. Up B, B reversals, Down B, and even side B can all be used to maintain your space in the air. Throw in armor on double jump and Yoshi beats Fox in the air easily in my opinion.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't mean to stray away from the current discussion.

But Imma do it anyway!

Do you guys think is viable at all?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't mean to stray away from the current discussion.

But Imma do it anyway!

Do you guys think is viable at all?

On 3DS? By the sounds of things no, pivot grab aside.

Wii U version might fix a lot of his issues though. Could be as simple as more powerful system = 60 FPS Pikmin + better AI.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yoshi's aerials are amazing. I would say that B-air is actually his worst option when it comes to spacing. N-air is absolute god-like. I would even go as far to say that it is one of the best neutral airs in the entire game. It's hitbox stays out for days and is deceptively large, rising and fast falling as well as weaving in and out with his high air mobility make it amazing for spacing. Even safe on shield when weaving out.

Fair is also godlike. It has a huge hitbox, is fast, and groundbounces opponents for combos. It can also be made safe on shield by using it at its optimal range and weaving away. Other than maybe up-air, I dont believe any of Fox's aerials beat it out in a trade.

Not to mention Yoshi has so many tools to change his momentum in the air. Up B, B reversals, Down B, and even side B can all be used to maintain your space in the air. Throw in armor on double jump and Yoshi beats Fox in the air easily in my opinion.

Yoshi's aerials are amazing mostly as punishes, and less useful in neutral outside of his good mobility. As I recall, a lot of characters can outright beat Yoshi's N-air with actual good aerial spacing moves. Yes, I'm already aware that Yoshi's B-air is probably overhyped for spacing, but his other aerials aren't seriously doing a better job than his B-air for legitimate spacing.

F-air's hitbox is not bad, but it's also a relatively slow move, so you aren't exactly winning neutral with that either unless your opponent either is playing really unnecessarily scared or risky. Even if you can technically beat other aerials with it, there's the question of it either being baited or interrupted by characters with superior tools for aerial footsies. As I recall, Fox's B-air is fast, and it's also safe and rewarding.

The bulk of Yoshi's threat in the air hinges on Egg Lay being hard to contest directly, but it also has a relatively slow startup, so once people start learning to reactively avoid it, Yoshi becomes a lot less scary to either block against or play aerial footsies against. This is especially problematic if Yoshi is behind, because he realistically does not have a single safe approach option, and he's not a character that can actually force you to do anything by just camping. It's not the same as Fox who forces you to get chipped by lasers if you absolutely refuse to approach him.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't mean to stray away from the current discussion.

But Imma do it anyway!

Do you guys think is viable at all?

Nope?
Reducing hypothetics who is currently in this early meta?
fox robin ness yoshi sheik rosaluma greninja apparantly Ganon, mario rob.
As far as common participants go.
Who does Olimar match up with? Who does he match up with once pikmin suicide and does anyone want to play a character competitively with random desyncs that disfavor them?
reflectable smashes all around to boot.

 

[sunset_raven]

@ Shaya , I didn't quite understand what do you think about long range zoning types...

I do think this game favors rush down / zone breaking. It seems that every char that relies heavily on keepaway to win has to play outside their comfort zone against them. This does seem obvious, but it really isn't. Rush down chars should have a hard time getting in, but once in, they should be hard to deal with. Maybe I'm just applying too much from other fighting games... Idk.

I agree that Lucario's design is just ugh (along with maybe Pikachu), but wouldn't that fit Sheik as well? Seriously, how the hell are you supposed to keep Sheik away, specially when she can harass you with needles?

 

[Shaya]

Long range zoners are choosing space over combat as a preference and punish people from various ranges attempting to get through their space. It's a shoddy category/split between the mid range zoners, and it isn't completely consistent either (what is Zelda?).

The zone breakers are the most potent characters in the game because they don't have issues getting in, and are good once in. I think the CQC/Grapplers are the types who have a hard time getting in, but once they are dominate (like, do you beat Mac at stuff once he gets in? Probably not, would you prefer to run away? Yes, can he stop you running away once he's in advantage? yes).

Sheik and Pikachu are kinda sore thumbs where they're completely capable of playing at mid and long range safely, while also being kinda dominant in rush down specs. Sheik is a huge sore thumb as I already mentioned, she has like, the best camping in the game due to just one move that's the most spammable projectile that combos... in theory she should be wanting to fight you, but she doesn't have to, which is dumb/bad.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Yoshi's aerials are amazing mostly as punishes, and less useful in neutral outside of his good mobility. As I recall, a lot of characters can outright beat Yoshi's N-air with actual good aerial spacing moves. Yes, I'm already aware that Yoshi's B-air is probably overhyped for spacing, but his other aerials aren't seriously doing a better job than his B-air for legitimate spacing.

F-air's hitbox is not bad, but it's also a relatively slow move, so you aren't exactly winning neutral with that either unless your opponent either is playing really unnecessarily scared or risky. Even if you can technically beat other aerials with it, there's the question of it either being baited or interrupted by characters with superior tools for aerial footsies. As I recall, Fox's B-air is fast, and it's also safe and rewarding.

The bulk of Yoshi's threat in the air hinges on Egg Lay being hard to contest directly, but it also has a relatively slow startup, so once people start learning to reactively avoid it, Yoshi becomes a lot less scary to either block against or play aerial footsies against. This is especially problematic if Yoshi is behind, because he realistically does not have a single safe approach option, and he's not a character that can actually force you to do anything by just camping. It's not the same as Fox who forces you to get chipped by lasers if you absolutely refuse to approach him.

When using all of Yoshi's aerials, tools, and momentum together his neutral game is amazing. Much better than just tools for punishing. Fair is not that slow. You can do two in a single full hop. Mix that in with covering your approach with eggs, egg lay, and a very fast nair and I dont see yoshi struggling against fox in terms of neutral game. Although anecdotal, I actually played a fairly good fox last night for a good 3 hours. He completely struggled in the air against me. Yoshi's momentum and eggs are just too much to handle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHNlCaiAvys Take Yoshidora's match here for example (granted it is against Ganondorf) but you can see just how good Yoshi's neutral game is. Eggs are amazing at covering your approaches and forcing your opponent to either airdodge or shield.

If a player is using Yoshi's Bair for spacing he is playing him wrong.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When using all of Yoshi's aerials, tools, and momentum together his neutral game is amazing. Much better than just tools for punishing. Fair is not that slow. You can do two in a single full hop. Mix that in with covering your approach with eggs, egg lay, and a very fast nair and I dont see yoshi struggling against fox in terms of neutral game. Although anecdotal, I actually played a fairly good fox last night for a good 3 hours. He completely struggled in the air against me. Yoshi's momentum and eggs are just too much to handle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHNlCaiAvys Take Yoshidora's match here for example (granted it is against Ganondorf) but you can see just how good Yoshi's neutral game is. Eggs are amazing at covering your approaches and forcing your opponent to either airdodge or shield.

If a player is using Yoshi's Bair for spacing he is playing him wrong.

Gungnir never reactively spotdodged Yoshidora's Neutral B which is the counterplay to beating Yoshi's neutral game. He also overcommitted several times when trying to punish Yoshidora, which is what actually cost him the set. Furthermore Eggs didn't actually help Yoshidora approach. They helped him secure KOs. As I stated, the bulk of Yoshi's threat in neutral is Neutral B, which is a slow command grab. It's slow enough that you should be spotdodging it on reaction in neutral once you know the animation, and from there Yoshi's aerials are not actually that amazing for neutral. Yoshi is strong when he forces you to make bad approaches because his punishes are among the best in the game, but when he doesn't, he kinda doesn't do nearly as much to you.

That's why in spite of Mario being one of the worst characters in the game, I state Mario has a very winnable matchup against Yoshi, especially with Fast Fireballs. Yoshi can't ever force Mario to actually make any really unwise moves. He only really wins the matchup through superior reward on hit, but he actually has a very difficult time opening up Mario if Mario refuses to do anything risky. Mario stops grab shenanigans with fireballs, and his B-air is able to beat most of Yoshi's aerials directly, and trades favorably with Yoshi's B-air.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

When using all of Yoshi's aerials, tools, and momentum together his neutral game is amazing. Much better than just tools for punishing. Fair is not that slow. You can do two in a single full hop. Mix that in with covering your approach with eggs, egg lay, and a very fast nair and I dont see yoshi struggling against fox in terms of neutral game. Although anecdotal, I actually played a fairly good fox last night for a good 3 hours. He completely struggled in the air against me. Yoshi's momentum and eggs are just too much to handle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHNlCaiAvys Take Yoshidora's match here for example (granted it is against Ganondorf) but you can see just how good Yoshi's neutral game is. Eggs are amazing at covering your approaches and forcing your opponent to either airdodge or shield.

If a player is using Yoshi's Bair for spacing he is playing him wrong.

lol ganon is a threat nothing to grant

 

[sunset_raven]

Long range zoners are choosing space over combat as a preference and punish people from various ranges attempting to get through their space. It's a shoddy category/split between the mid range zoners, and it isn't completely consistent either (what is Zelda?).

The zone breakers are the most potent characters in the game because they don't have issues getting in, and are good once in. I think the CQC/Grapplers are the types who have a hard time getting in, but once they are dominate (like, do you beat Mac at stuff once he gets in? Probably not, would you prefer to run away? Yes, can he stop you running away once he's in advantage? yes).

Sheik and Pikachu are kinda sore thumbs where they're completely capable of playing at mid and long range safely, while also being kinda dominant in rush down specs. Sheik is a huge sore thumb as I already mentioned, she has like, the best camping in the game due to just one move that's the most spammable projectile that combos... in theory she should be wanting to fight you, but she doesn't have to, which is dumb/bad.

I'd put every zoner together. Mid range or long range, they're all keepaway.

I have no idea where to put Zelda, but she does seem very reactive/defensive. She's probably more precision oriented, even though she has projectiles.

About zone breakers. They seem to be either neutral/footsie-oriented or rushdown/momentum. The first type, IMHO, would make for more balanced characters. When you mix the ability to get in easily and be hard to deal with up close... That seems a bad mix.

Coming from an SF4 background, Pikachu and Sheik kinda remind me of Akuma (as was already mentioned).

And Lucario is a walking Ultra charged bomb. Or would X-Factor make more sense?

 

[Ffamran]

Cool, I just confirmed that Falco can combo his (sweet-spotted) Dair with an Up Smash. At around 60%, his Dair will cause opponents to launch up slightly and away from him. There's just enough time to Up Smash, Up Tilt, Side Smash, Side Tilt, Down Tilt, Blaster, Reflector, Falco Phantasm, sort of Fair, and barely neutral combo and Fire Bird. From what I tested, it works on himself, Ganondorf, Toon Link, and Mario. It probably works on pretty much everyone else.

See, Falco's Dair isn't useless.

Incredibly risky, though, since if it's shielded, there's nothing but punishment waiting for Falco. Sour-spotting it makes this null and void.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Fair is also godlike. It has a huge hitbox, is fast, and groundbounces opponents for combos. It can also be made safe on shield by using it at its optimal range and weaving away. Other than maybe up-air, I dont believe any of Fox's aerials beat it out in a trade.

Yes, I'm already aware that Yoshi's B-air is probably overhyped for spacing, but his other aerials aren't seriously doing a better job than his B-air for legitimate spacing.

Actually Bair got hit with a pretty big nerf where we can't spam it like we used too cause of the landing lag on it being 10+ frames more from Brawl's. Which is why now when you see say Yoshidora for example facing away from somebody instead of spamming bair like most Yoshi mains would do in Brawl to chain into Utilt or something, he's just using B-reverse to catch them off guard.

F-air's hitbox is not bad, but it's also a relatively slow move

No it's not, you're thinking of Brawl's Fair. Can I smoke what you're smoking?

This is especially problematic if Yoshi is behind, because he realistically does not have a single safe approach option, and he's not a character that can actually force you to do anything by just camping.

Being behind as Yoshi sucks, but saying he can't do anything is incredibly wrong.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually Bair got hit with a pretty big nerf where we can't spam it like we used too cause of the landing lag on it being 10+ frames more from Brawl's. Which is why now when you see say Yoshidora for example facing away from somebody instead of spamming bair like most Yoshi mains would do in Brawl to chain into Utilt or something, he's just using B-reverse to catch them off guard.


No it's not, you're thinking of Brawl's Fair. Can I smoke what you're smoking?


Being behind as Yoshi sucks, but saying he can't do anything is incredibly wrong.

Yoshi F-air legitimately appears to be ~17-18 frames (I checked a video under frame advance). It's not that fast.

And I never said Yoshi can't do anything when behind. He just has very poor options for actually opening up people who want to turtle, and the risk of him trying to do so is not in his favor when a lot of his options lose to shield -> reactive spotdodge. This is why Yoshi is more likely to become slightly less effective over time, while someone like Fox who is able to do damage at long range that can't be reactively defended against is more likely to become more valuable competitively.

 

[Kofu]

Cool, I just confirmed that Falco can combo his (sweet-spotted) Dair with an Up Smash. At around 60%, his Dair will cause opponents to launch up slightly and away from him. There's just enough time to Up Smash, Up Tilt, Side Smash, Side Tilt, Down Tilt, Blaster, Reflector, Falco Phantasm, sort of Fair, and barely neutral combo and Fire Bird. From what I tested, it works on himself, Ganondorf, Toon Link, and Mario. It probably works on pretty much everyone else.

See, Falco's Dair isn't useless.

Incredibly risky, though, since if it's shielded, there's nothing but punishment waiting for Falco. Sour-spotting it makes this null and void.

Is this DAir's meteor hitbox you're referring to? If so it probably isn't a true combo. Characters can tech grounded meteors if it makes the meteor sound, which would allow them to avoid the USmash.

I like the bounce mechanic but being able to tech meteors while you're on the ground is just dumb. Samus's UTilt has a hit box that registers at a meteor only if the opponent is grounded, meaning people can basically get out of the attack scot-free minus some damage and can possibly even punish Samus.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's not fast but it's not slow either. Especially since the move ends a lot faster than it did from Brawl.
Forward air (Fair,F-Air) Start up: 18 Hits: 19-21 Hit lag: 6-10 Landing Lag: 16 Ends: 43

Dunno bout you, but when I read "realistically has no safe approach options" I see that as Can't do anything cause that's technically what you're saying but with a different way of putting it.

Anyways, if they want to turtle we'll let em. We'll just chuck eggs all day until they get annoyed being pelted for a good while since the mobility from short hop egg toss keeps us from being punished less often compared to Brawl and being forced in the direction you're holding when using the move unless you wavebounce it.
Also that >shield and spotdodge moves statement can honestly be applied to every character.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not fast but it's not slow either. Especially since the move ends a lot faster than it did from Brawl.
Forward air (Fair,F-Air) Start up: 18 Hits: 19-21 Hit lag: 6-10 Landing Lag: 16 Ends: 43

Dunno bout you, but when I read "realistically has no safe approach options" I see that as Can't do anything cause that's technically what you're saying but with a different way of saying it.

Anyways, if they want to turtle we'll let em. We'll just chuck eggs all day until they get annoyed being pelted for a good while since the mobility from short hop egg toss keeps us from being punished less often compared to Brawl and being forced in the direction you're holding when using the move unless you wavebounce it.
Also that >shield and spotdodge moves statement can honestly be applied to every character.

17-18 frames means blockable on reaction, so again, Yoshi is not winning neutral with his F-air especially since he specifically has to space it in order for it to be safe on block.

Yoshi's grab options have a longer than 15 frame startup, meaning if your reactions are good, he realistically has a very huge amount of trouble baiting you into making a bad defensive move. It's not the same as Fox or Sonic who forces you to preemptively spotdodge to avoid grab while also being able to throw out save moves to bait or trap spotdodge. Yoshi does have safe moves on spotdodge, but his actual grab threat to force spotdodge is not very good.

And yes, he doesn't have safe approach options. Neither did Brawl Snake, who was one of the best characters in the game, though it meant if he was behind, he would just get air camped to time. Yoshi like Brawl Snake is a good character because his punishes are among the best in the game and like Snake, nobody wants to even try approaching him. Doesn't mean he doesn't have noticeable problems in his gameplan that still exist even in spite of normalizing his shield.

 

[Ffamran]

Is this DAir's meteor hitbox you're referring to? If so it probably isn't a true combo. Characters can tech grounded meteors if it makes the meteor sound, which would allow them to avoid the USmash.

I like the bounce mechanic but being able to tech meteors while you're on the ground is just dumb. Samus's UTilt has a hit box that registers at a meteor only if the opponent is grounded, meaning people can basically get out of the attack scot-free minus some damage and can possibly even punish Samus.

Yeah, CPU's can tech anything. Cheating *******s.

It's not a true combo, but you can combo with it; follow up with it. So, it'd be like using Dante's Overdrive in DmC: Devil May Cry. It's not a true combo since it's separate from the rest of the moves and you can't cancel it to spam another move like Killer Bee in Devil May Cry 3 which already requires that you're in the air to jump cancel, but it's still possible to follow up quickly with it. Not as fast as say, Dtilt, Dthrow, or Bthrow to Fair, but it's still possible.

I don't know if Captain Falcon can meteor-bounce for another attack like this, but fighters like Link and Toon Link can't since there's significant ending lag compared to Falco, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf - I'm pretty sure you could with Ganondorf since it's a powerful hit that you could follow up with another attack.

So, a setup maybe instead of a combo?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yeah, CPU's can tech anything. Cheating *******s.

It's not a true combo, but you can combo with it; follow up with it. So, it'd be like using Dante's Overdrive in DmC: Devil May Cry. It's not a true combo since it's separate from the rest of the moves and you can't cancel it to spam another move like Killer Bee in Devil May Cry 3 which already requires that you're in the air to jump cancel, but it's still possible to follow up quickly with it. Not as fast as say, Dtilt, Dthrow, or Bthrow to Fair, but it's still possible.

I don't know if Captain Falcon can meteor-bounce for another attack like this, but fighters like Link and Toon Link can't since there's significant ending lag compared to Falco, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf - I'm pretty sure you could with Ganondorf since it's a powerful hit that you could follow up with another attack.

So, a setup maybe instead of a combo?

nairo can tech everything.

 

[Ffamran]

nairo can tech everything.

But can nairo tech a tech?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

well that is correct in a litteral sence. not quite in a video game since snakes tilts had great range.

Edit: Ignore this Shaya happened

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Edit: Ignore this Shaya happened

lol shaya is not my dictator lol snakes tilts have the same range as pits by this logic pit is also qcq

 

[KuroganeHammer]

lol shaya is not my dictator lol snakes tilts have the same range as pits by this logic pit is also qcq

except pits don't come out on like, frame 4

 

[Road Death Wheel]

except pits don't come out on like, frame 4

that really does not mean anything to my statment whats this reply trying to accomplish? whats the spesific goal to this retort? there range is still the same regardless when it comes out.

 

[mimgrim]

Uhm. when a move comes out is hugely important. The faster it comes out the harder it is to react to and the better the move gets.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

... lol.

Anyway, I am going to stick Paletuna back on my secondaries list because of this lightweight thing. It's absolutely crayzzzzzzz.

She's gone from an average character to a great one, lightweight is just soo good.

 

[Ffamran]

Uhm. when a move comes out is hugely important. The faster it comes out the harder it is to react to and the better the move gets.

What about a move so fast that it's difficult to time for both the user and the victim?

 

[mimgrim]

What about a move so fast that it's difficult to time for both the user and the victim?

Doesn't exist. There isn't anything faster then a frame 1 move and they are still easy to time for the user, notable examples are Melee Fox/Falco Shine and Mac's Jab 1 in this game.

 

[Ffamran]

Doesn't exist. There isn't anything faster then a frame 1 move and they are still easy to time for the user, notable examples are Melee Fox/Falco Shine and Mac's Jab 1 in this game.

It exists if you play on turbo mode.

Hmm... If such a thing existed, would it break the game or break the character so that it has an uncontrollable, useless move?

In games, slow moves are very powerful, tend to have super-armor, and need a hell of a good timing since anything can just move away and counter. Fast moves tend to be weak either in damage or knockback, but lack any "defensive qualities"; if you get hit, then it's going to get interrupted. In theory, it should be balanced, but if you noticed, fast moves in every game tends to be the king because even with pitiful damage, its output is amazing.

But if you look at real life: gatling guns. Ignoring wind-up, it destroys everything. Machine guns would be another example without wind-up. A missile strike can be avoided if people know when it's going to happen. Strong, but telegraphed.

 

[gameprodigy12]

This would be a good point if the air game didn't exist, which Rosalina completely beats Bowser at (and getting him to the air is not hard in the slightest). Bowser absolutely does not beat her in aerial mobility, especially because he has poor vertical mobility. Custom Side B helps his horizontal mobility, but what Rosalina player would constantly stay on the same vertical level as Bowser, especially since she has such disjointable aerials?



Luma Warp is significant though, because she can do literally anything out of it without delay. And since it has quick start up too, she can literally implement it into combos - knock someone forward, Luma Warp, Luma lands on top of the and stuns them, then can do whatever move you want from there, including KO moves. Not to mention that when Bowser is recovering, he cannot afford to not go straight for the stage in most cases, so it's very easy for Rosalina to float in tandem with him and land Luma on top of a recovering Bowser with Luma Warp.



I main Sonic too, and I can assuredly say that Spin Dash is not difficult to deal with. Much like ZSS's Down B, it's easy to shield it and counter from there. He can even be shield grabbed out of it.

He's also not the most difficult match-up for Rosalina at all. I can think of a good number of characters that are more difficult (ZSS being one).

Another custom we are ignoring that really helps against Bowser is Luma Guardian - Makes Luma a huge, invincible hitbox, and this greatly nerfs Bowser's tools against Luma, especially in combination with Luma Warp. Especially since so many of Bowser's attacks have a lot of lag and are also easy to see coming.



>Ignoring that I am against the notion she is broken
>Ignoring that I always try to help people out in the Rosalina Match-Up Discussion thread by suggesting ways to counter Rosalina

I'm not debating this point because I want to play white knight, I'm debating it because I have a lot of experience with the Bowser match up (I play with a Bowser main quite often, and have been playing with him since Brawl - he says Rosalina is like his "final boss"), and from this experience, I don't think Bowser beats her by virtue of two or three of his customs.

Don't worry about them, they are just saying that because they don't know that Rosalina is a top tier character and can handle a lot of characters easily, especially Bowser.

 

[Terotrous]

Anyway before I passed out however many hours ago, I apparently had this saved in my drafts. I think my goals were something like categorising characters by classes of capabilities / design paradigms and then potentially ordering them within.

I think there's also a "Balanced" design paradigm, which is a character whose focus is on versatility. You can typically tell if a character is this if they have a very balanced set of special moves, ie a projectile, some kind of defensive option, a solid recovery, etc, and their overall toolset isn't geared to any specific playstyle.


I'd put the following in the balanced category:



By definition, the balanced class lacks any inherent strengths and weaknesses relative to other classes, however characters who are extremely good at pressing their own advantages can give balanced characters trouble as they usually don't have dominating strength in any area.


Of course, the complexity arises from the fact that some characters who are generally balanced may excel so much in a particular area that its best for them to focus on that one area. For example, Palutena is potentially a super versatile character thanks to her absurdly varied custom moves, but Super Speed is so strong it may push her towards a more rushdown-oriented playstyle in most matchups. Still, she does have the versatility available if she needs it for any matchups.


Speaking of Palutena, I think we've started to realize she's not anywhere near as bad as people thought at first. The question arises of "why people were so convinced she was terrible", and honestly I think the answer is that people took one look at her tilts and said "bottom tier" without even looking at the rest of her moveset.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Speaking of Palutena, I think we've started to realize she's not anywhere near as bad as people thought at first. The question arises of "why people were so convinced she was terrible", and honestly I think the answer is that people took one look at her tilts and said "bottom tier" without even looking at the rest of her moveset.

Pretty much, they used ftilt and were like

oh my thats bad

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I'd put the following in the balanced category:

wh-

bu-

gu-

I'm a supporter of Lucario, I really enjoy playing him but Rage + Aura + Ridiculous recovery = imbalance if you ask me. His only real weakness is his early %s, but even then he has a strong jab, good throws, very powerful aerials and just the fact of having a counter (as laggy as it is).

I do agree on your points about Palutena though. I myself thought she was pretty awful from a few experiments in practice mode and bot games, but her dash attack's absurd priority changed all that for me. Then there's the discovery of Lightweight's standard weight and the fact that she's more an aerial character than people realized... she's not top tier, not even high imo, but definitely a solid mid tier to compete strongly with characters like Lucina, Shulk, Wario etc.

(Funnily enough it's becoming more and more apparent that this game is even more balanced than we thought. Early tier lists had Ganon and Palutena down bottom but they're moving up the ranks... who next, Olimar?)

 

[YeahVeryeah]

I think there's also a "Balanced" design paradigm, which is a character whose focus is on versatility. You can typically tell if a character is this if they have a very balanced set of special moves, ie a projectile, some kind of defensive option, a solid recovery, etc, and their overall toolset isn't geared to any specific playstyle.


I'd put the following in the balanced category:

+

You might not think it at first, but once you really look at his moves you see he has a lot of tools. Not the best of tools, (which is why even the fanboys like ryu, trg, and yours truly aren't clamoring for him to move into the top 10), but its clear once you play charizard that his toolset isn't too focused.

U-tilt and Usmash disjoint and keep your opponent out of neutral. Rock Smash, Fly, and FLARE BLITZ have armor. Down tilt pokes without committing your large hurtbox, and has a great launch angle. He's a heavy, but he's got best-in class mobility, while also having somewhat spotty selection of kill moves. (He has plenty of kill moves, but if he's going for a kill move when you're on the ground, its pretty easy to guess which one he'll use.) Since his only kill-confirm (if i understand the term right) is jab to fly. This lack of quick kill moves against a lot of angles leads people like ryu to emphasise his punish game.

Or he's a grappler and I'm a noob. Bowser probably outclasses him in pure grappling though.