Character Competitive Impressions

[Terotrous]

wh-

bu-

gu-

I'm a supporter of Lucario, I really enjoy playing him but Rage + Aura + Ridiculous recovery = imbalance if you ask me.

Lucario's basic toolset is among as balanced as it can get. Look at his B moves. Chargeable / Storable Projectile, Command Grab, Counter, versatile recovery. That's like a crash course on what types of special moves are useful in Smash Bros. He's also moderately fast, moderately heavy, and has decent (but not overly disjointed or powerful) normals. I would probably recommend Lucario as one of the best characters for newcomers to the series to start with simply because he's so well-balanced.

Of course, the stupid aura mechanic turns him from a strong all-rounder to a character who probably breaks the game, but it's clear he was designed to be a balanced character.

+

You might not think it at first, but once you really look at his moves you see he has a lot of tools. Not the best of tools, (which is why even the fanboys like ryu, trg, and yours truly aren't clamoring for him to move into the top 10), but its clear once you play charizard that his toolset isn't too focused.

Nah, he's a bit too strong and slow to be balanced. He's more of a big bruiser, like DK and Bowser. The fact that he has no aerials with <20 frames of landing lag is a tipoff.

 

[YeahVeryeah]

Nah, he's a bit too strong and slow to be balanced. He's more of a big bruiser, like DK and Bowser. The fact that he has no aerials with <20 frames of landing lag is a tipoff.

I mean, he's no Mario, but he's not really a bowser either. I might be using "balanced playstyle" a little too liberally, though, as I'm trying to pin Zard's niche down and that could theoretically lead to me grasping at straws.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'll just name drop for his Dair... but I also don't want to seem like that guy who thinks Mega Man is god tier.



Leaf shield isn't really a great defensive tool... the hit stun off of it is probably less than the landing lag of any aerial that Jiggly has, so it's actually to her advantage to get hit by one after jumping in with an aerial. Leaf shield gimping Jiggly actually sounds like a good idea, since she'll be stuck in footstool free fall for a while.

Mega Man's recovery trajectory can be quite complex. Yes, he has the high vertical leap, but if Jigglypuff commits to edge guarding low, you can just go over her. Especially with conserving double jump until after you up-B, there are a lot of different trajectories you can use to get back to the stage.

You know that MegaMan can use his normal shield at the same time right?

Oh, and a good Jiggly won't give you much landing lag to
take advantage of.

The idea with Leaf Shield is that Megaman can have an active hitbox
while defending himself (shielding, rolling etc.).

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Lucario's basic toolset is among as balanced as it can get. Look at his B moves. Chargeable / Storable Projectile, Command Grab, Counter, versatile recovery. That's like a crash course on what types of special moves are useful in Smash Bros. He's also moderately fast, moderately heavy, and has decent (but not overly disjointed or powerful) normals. I would probably recommend Lucario as one of the best characters for newcomers to the series to start with simply because he's so well-balanced.

Of course, the stupid aura mechanic turns him from a strong all-rounder to a character who probably breaks the game, but it's clear he was designed to be a balanced character.



Nah, he's a bit too strong and slow to be balanced. He's more of a big bruiser, like DK and Bowser. The fact that he has no aerials with <20 frames of landing lag is a tipoff.

Wait so for Luke do you mean that he is balanced in a jack of all trades sort of thing, or from a viability balance perspective he is balanced?

I can see the former, but the latter... Luke is dumb. Great recovery for when you will need it, strong moves, especially when you get hit (you get punished for punishing...), that sort of thing.

I don't know which play tester thought Lucario was fine in his current state.

 

[meleebrawler]

Wait so for Luke do you mean that he is balanced in a jack of all trades sort of thing, or from a viability balance perspective he is balanced?

I can see the former, but the latter... Luke is dumb. Great recovery for when you will need it, strong moves, especially when you get hit (you get punished for punishing...), that sort of thing.

I don't know which play tester thought Lucario was fine in his current state.

Did you not read that post? He said that Lucario has a
balanced MOVESET.

 

[Emblem Lord]

People feel palutena is bad because her nuetral is ass.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wait so for Luke do you mean that he is balanced in a jack of all trades sort of thing, or from a viability balance perspective he is balanced?

I can see the former, but the latter... Luke is dumb. Great recovery for when you will need it, strong moves, especially when you get hit (you get punished for punishing...), that sort of thing.

I don't know which play tester thought Lucario was fine in his current state.

Seemed pretty clear from context he meant the former.

 

[Conda]

Played around with Mii Gunner yesterday. This guy will likely be a contender in the right hands, I think he has the tools he needs.

His flame pillar side B is great, as good as Robin's in a different way - can be shorthopped and will still hit the ground and erupt, and is super quick and has low end lag. He has great smashes, good aerials, and good specials to tackle pretty much any situation. And that nair as well as bair makes him feel like he'll be fine in aerial CQC.

He has special-treatment attacks - uniquely designed fair and fsmash that other characters are lucky to have as well. Megaman's fsmash is a unique tool for him, but readable and reactable to reflector characters. Not so much the case with Mii Gunner's fsmash due to speed, it seems.

His fair, though. Wow. Tried retreating SH fairs and it's really good. If you use it at the center of FD and retreat midair while shooting it forward, you get boosted to the edge of the stage basically. Really solid and safe spacing tool.

In the air, fair has a lot of end lag so you won't be putting up a wall while in the air, but it has low landing lag (weird how moves differ so much in aerial lag vs landing lag in this game, more than usual it feels). So you can SH it safely. Great for edgeguarding.

He's got a spike, decent recovery, a normal grab, samus' specials plus alternatives that are really solid. Great tilts too - ftilt and utilt are great tools that Samus doesn't have the likes of.

It'll be cool to see how well he does competitively. He's a bunch of fun. Counterable with reflectors maybe, but he's got a small frame, high speed, and good melee options to change his playstyle around if need be.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't think gunner is shut down by reflectors he has too many options that aren't reflected or are cqc.

Kirbys state irks me because what holds him back is miniscule.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Did you not read that post? He said that Lucario has a
balanced MOVESET.

That's what I was thinking.

I just really hate Lucario and was looking for a place to vent.

 

[Radical Larry]

Spoiler

Even if a small bit of it be here, I would like to post my own tier list, which is based on my experiences in the competitive scene, and the potential that all characters do have within the game after the two months. This surely is not a final production, and I know as the metagame evolves, so does the list. When newer things are discovered, my list will change when I use them.

S Tier:
These are the characters with the most viability in the game, as well as the highest potential to win in a tournament. They also give counters and heavy counters to mostly every other character against them, and maybe soft counters to those above them.


A Tier:
The characters with the second most viability in the game, as well as second highest potential.


B Tier:
The middle of the tier list, as well as characters with somewhat of a viability standard, but almost not much use.


C Tier:
The second part of the middle, these are characters are lower-than-average for viability and potential.


D Tier:
The low end, with characters who have below the range of viability and have bad potential in tournaments.


E Tier:
Very low potential and viability in tournaments, and are countered by almost every other character in the game.


F Tier:
The only character within the game that would have almost no viability at all, and is completely countered by every character in the game.

I don't think gunner is shut down by reflectors he has too many options that aren't reflected or are cqc.

Kirbys state irks me because what holds him back is miniscule.

Well, Kirby is actually held back by a variety of things, such as:
Nerfing the Hammer into Hammer Flip, in which it's unadvised to use within the air, and can no longer provide recovery and has to charge to get better power.
Lower aerial speed, comparable to Melee's.
Shorter ranged kicking attacks.
Punishable Stone and Final Cutter on block.

He's not much of a very viable character, if you think about it. He's been (almost) reverted to his Melee status.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Link in S tier and Toon Link in E tier?

You got some splainin to do sir.

I respect the Zard placement, but he definitely has no business being above Fox, Tink, Wario, Peach, Falcon, Pikachu, and Villager... At least at this point in the meta.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Well, Kirby is actually held back by a variety of things, such as:
Nerfing the Hammer into Hammer Flip, in which it's unadvised to use within the air, and can no longer provide recovery and has to charge to get better power.
Lower aerial speed, comparable to Melee's.
Shorter ranged kicking attacks.
Punishable Stone and Final Cutter on block.

He's not much of a very viable character, if you think about it. He's been (almost) reverted to his Melee status.

No one uses hammer flip except against maybe Marth/Lucina in case of a shield break. Hammer bash gives you all you want out of the hammer. What holds him back is miniscule. He lacks the speed to operate with his kit and on the other side he lacks the range to make up for his speed. Its not a series of problems.

All that summing up to Kirby can't get in to do anything. He basically has to ask for an invitation.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I mean, he's no Mario, but he's not really a bowser either. I might be using "balanced playstyle" a little too liberally, though, as I'm trying to pin Zard's niche down and that could theoretically lead to me grasping at straws.

I wouldn't really consider Charizard a grappler. At any rate, I would agree Charizard's niche is being a heavy hitter that is less specialized than others, while not being particularly vulnerable in any one area (except he's still a large target).

I don't think I can make a proper comparison to him from other fighting games, though I've only seriously paid attention to SF4, Blazblue, and JJBA:ASB. Someone like Bowser in contrast I would directly compare to Zangief as a very footsies oriented grappler, and Ganondorf is kinda like Hugo who basically becomes very noticeably strong when his opponent is cornered.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Doomsday in gods among us. Hard hitting bruiser with buttons and specials that have to be respected. Thats charizard.

 

[The Real Gamer]

If only Zard had Doomsday's corner game...

 

[Wtfwasthat]

What does everyone think of luigi? I haven't gotten the game yet so I was just wondering. Alot of people have him as the worst character in the game

 

[Thinkaman]

I like the comparisons you made, but G&W doesn't have shield-drop u-tilt or the mid-range game like MM. I didn't follow Brawl competitively, so I don't know how bad that matchup really was, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

The uppercut comes out in 6 frames, which is just scary fast for KO move like that. Any pound that doesn't break a shield or doesn't connect will likely get punished with an uppercut. You use it as a shield/whiff punish, unlike G&W's brawl smashes. For instance, if she's approaching with FAir or NAir and you shield, if she didn't space the FAir, she gets a utilt. Also, the horizontal range of the sweetspot utilt is pretty underestimated, since he takes 1 step forward to unleash it. It's not great, by any means, but it's better than Luigi's up-B sweet spot.

Right, I was about to interject, I think Luigi is a more apt comparison in a lot of ways. Luigi was a 4-6 matchup for her in Brawl imo, definitely his favor but manageable. I have a pretty good Mega Man, so I'll try to test both sides of the matchup later.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Spoiler

Even if a small bit of it be here, I would like to post my own tier list, which is based on my experiences in the competitive scene, and the potential that all characters do have within the game after the two months. This surely is not a final production, and I know as the metagame evolves, so does the list. When newer things are discovered, my list will change when I use them.

S Tier:
These are the characters with the most viability in the game, as well as the highest potential to win in a tournament. They also give counters and heavy counters to mostly every other character against them, and maybe soft counters to those above them.


B Tier:
The middle of the tier list, as well as characters with somewhat of a viability standard, but almost not much use.


C Tier:
The second part of the middle, these are characters are lower-than-average for viability and potential.


D Tier:
The low end, with characters who have below the range of viability and have bad potential in tournaments.


E Tier:
Very low potential and viability in tournaments, and are countered by almost every other character in the game.

Basically my issues with the lists... Now I don't care about tier letters, so I deleted those. Also I don't really care about stuff like Puff being above WFT (except for one such thing on the list), for example. However, I care about the descriptions.

Alright, let's start at the top. , we all know his strengths and weaknesses by now, just where there is disagreement is how much his strengths help and how much his weaknesses hinder. IMO, his recovery really is just THAT bad. sure, he dominates onstage and a good Mac is scary (on FD), but I really don't think he is countering many characters and countered by few, even on FD.

... I don't think I've even seen a set of him in tours yet, let alone enough to put him with the likes of Rose and Sheik. His projectile game is very good and allows for him to zone very well. However, I don't think its as strong as your list makes it out to be. He also has some good options up close (SH Nair is something I quite like, Jab as well), but they're not good enough imo. I don't think we know nearly enough about him to give him judgment, and certainly not enough to put him up top.

, where do we start. Personally, I think Mii Sword is horrendous. I don't think his normals are any good and his customs certainly do not make up for that. Mii Sword is actually a contender for bottom of the game, in my eyes. Now, I still don't know too much about him, but what I've seen/used of him, he seems bad.

C Tier, I'm just going to quickfire. needs a GCC, so there is a lot of potential. Rest is good, aerials still as good as ever. is super technical, also needs a GCC, lack of staling on aerials is a godsend. Seems like a very nice contender for higher play, a lot of potential. I'm hearing good things about, but I need to see more of him. But from what I have seen, a lot of potential. is already doing alright, and Nairo says that Robin needs a GCC to work properly, so... lots of potential. is very satisfying to use, seems like he can do a lot. I'm watching him. has Super Speed, great normals, and the new Lightweight tech. Right now, idk what I think of her other than "I'm watching you". - Top levels players such as NAKAT and Zer0 are saying good things about him. Once again, watch this character.

is really good. Great close quarters game, amazing aerials, good recovery now, good power, Void Reflector is sooooo good. Falco is damn fine in this game.
has some crazy stupid tech like his momentum glitch. Amazing potential imo.

And then your low tiers. With , all I see is potential. She is so unique and requires such a different style of play. I don't know what I think of her other than that she can go places if someone harnesses her skills.

- Uh what? I don't see how "Very low potential and viability in tournaments, and are countered by almost every other character in the game" applies to a character that single handedly counters projectiles. I mean.... I just don't get it... it doesn't make sense. Also, from what I have seen in tournaments, Villager can do a lot. And we all know how stupid Wobbuffet Tree is...

And finally, saying has "Very low potential and viability in tournaments, and is countered by almost every other character in the game", and that " heavy counters to mostly every other character against them" is sooo contradictory. Also, imo, Tink is better than Link. Similar kits, but faster, similar killing power, smaller hurtbox... Tink is really good (and so is Link I might add), and to say that Link is better than him, especially by such a wide and polar margin, is wrong imo.

 

[Thinkaman]

Someone mentioned the degree to which customs help some characters vs. others. This is a copied post I made yesterday:

Here's my subjective list. (Keep in mind that this looks at the entire ecosystem--everyone improves nominally, but a character who gets less that other characters becomes "worse".) As an obvious disclaimer, this is super opinionated, unscientific, and only reflects 1 month with the 3DS version.

Way Way Better: (best improvement of options)


Way Better: (superior improvement of options)


Better: (better than average improvement of options)


About the Same, but Less Polarized: (average improvement of options, but specific benefit in worst matchups)


About the Same: (average improvement of options)


A Little Worse: (less beneficial improvement of options)


Worse: (little to no improvement of options)


Worst:


Rosalina is a weird case worth elaborating on.

Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are actually really good nominal improvements to her moves. However, because of her unique matchup style, tons of other characters who struggle with Rosalina improve their matchup with her significantly by taking specific customs that focus on terminating Luma.

Thus as a whole, it seems like a really safe bet that Rosalina's average matchup ratio drops more than anyone else when customs are enabled. I can confirm that in practice, I would much, much, much rather fight Rosalina as most characters with their custom options, in spite of Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp. Honestly, it's usually a no-brainer.


As a last reminder, a skilled or clever player can find value and importance in most options. This is not a commentary on how good or useful anyone's custom moves are in isolation, but just a rough guess at how customs affect their matchup ratios.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Uhm. when a move comes out is hugely important. The faster it comes out the harder it is to react to and the better the move gets.

that has nothing to do with being qcq witch was my arguement.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Are you ****ing serious? So a char having a frame 1 jab vs a char with a 4 frame jab isnt relevant to close range game?

What the **** am i reading?

Jesus christ

 

[mimgrim]

that has nothing to do with being qcq witch was my arguement.

It has EVERYTHING to do with close quarter combat. The faster a cqc move the better it is in cqc.

I don't even... I just...

*sigh*

@ Thinkaman why are the Pits in a different section when they have pretty much the same basic principles in their customs? If anything I would think Dark Pit would benefit more from them since he can switch to a more controllable Bow.

 

[Z'zgashi]

What does everyone think of luigi? I haven't gotten the game yet so I was just wondering. Alot of people have him as the worst character in the game

Yeah Luigi's most definitely down there towards the bottom in terms of viability, he still has the same problems from Brawl where he needs to be all in to get things done, but is easily zoned out and cant approach well. He's got some of the highest risk/reward in the game though and can get a lot done if he gets in, but the big problem is its only IF he gets in, which is super hard for him to do since he lacks mobility and has that slippery shield.

 

[Thinkaman]

@ Thinkaman why are the Pits in a different section when they have pretty much the same basic principles in their customs? If anything I would think Dark Pit would benefit more from them since he can switch to a more controllable Bow.

Because Guiding Bow on Dark Pit isn't as good imo. However, I'm not Pit main, so YMMV.

 

[NairWizard]

Someone mentioned the degree to which customs help some characters vs. others. This is a copied post I made yesterday:

Agree with almost everything in this list, but you have Robin listed twice.

 

[TTTTTsd]

@ Thinkaman definitely a good list.

Gonna talk about customs benefiting Doc, mainly the Fast Capsule and Down-B 2 (I forget its name but it's the recovery one). Fast capsule is better in most MUs where you have to force an approach because it's basically a laser and shiz, and it's good for interruptions as well. Lets Doc control midspace and is probably more beneficial to him than it is to Mario due to how he's gotta play. Megavitamins work better in certain cases (Like Ganondorf, for instance, since vitamins move at an angle where Down-B 2 doesn't get over them for free.)

Down-B 2 I shouldn't even have to explain, Doc's horizontal recovery is mediocre but fine, it's vertical that he suffers in, and since Down-B 2 gives him an incredible vertical boost and you can combine it with a walljump, yeah. In some cases though you'll wanna use Up-B 2 and keep Doc Tornado in certain MUs (I've heard it can beat Sonic's Spindash : O)

Pretty well thought out list, honestly. Seems accurate to me.

 

[Conda]

Is their a final word yet on Mii weight and height for competitive play? Or are we allowing everything for the time being? Ive seen mii brawler used at a tournament but am not sure if the player had to adhere to certain restrictions.

 

[Thinkaman]

Agree with almost everything in this list, but you have Robin listed twice.

Good catch, dunno what happened there. I think Robin is merely "better"; Thoron+ and Speed Thunder are amazing, strictly superior options, but default Thoron is no slouch. (Sort of like how Hammer Spin Dash is absurd and always better than the default, but the default was already really great.) Additionally, Robin's other custom options are... of minimal value, if worth taking at all.

Edit:
What's more, while I wouldn't call Robin a gimmick, a lot of his gameplay is single-mindedly about charging Thoron(+). (Not a bad thing! Thoron is crazy!) This means that customs let many characters optimize against this singular obsession. Mobility and faster/longer-range projectile options penalize him a lot.

If not for Speed Thunder as a counter-option in the worst cases, Robin might even not benefit overall from customs being allowed on both sides.

 

[deepseadiva]

So did yall know:

Brawler has a 0% KO punch now. Edit: deconfirmed by Thinkaman.
Palutena can use Lightweight indefinitely on platforms, ie become Sonic.

Smash 4 shakinnnnnn upppppppp!!!!!

 

[TTTTTsd]

What's really funny is I don't even see Shulk anywhere on that list haha.

Edit : And then Thinkaman slipped him in there, damn it!

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Wii Fit could almost be it's own category, definitely the most far and away design from every other character I've seen, making them almost impossible to truly ascertain their power level from (from what I've seen, their numbers for what they are capable of doing is just ludicrously over the top).

Just curious as to what makes Wii Fit it's own category? Is it move related, design related, both or just straight up lack of knowledge on this character? IMO I can see Wii Fit in CQC(could be super duper wrong since I'm not too sure what makes a character a CQC) but with options that allow her to be in the mid range (and maybe long range) zoning class.

Would you be able to come up with a class for Wii Fit?

 

[Thinkaman]

Brawler has a 0% KO punch now.

Stop repeating this! You can just hold down and survive, I confirmed it.

It's still something that people need to be aware of, and that up-b is still a great move in general, but it's just not that relevant to balance or competitive standing of the character.

What's really funny is I don't even see Shulk anywhere on that list haha.

I guess I wasn't really feeling it.

But yeah, put Shulk at average and moved Mega Man up to merely "worse"; Skull Barrier is a legitimately acceptable reflector in many matchups.

 

[NairWizard]

Good catch, dunno what happened there. I think Robin is merely "better"; Thoron+ and Speed Thunder are amazing, strictly superior options, but default Thoron is no slouch. (Sort of like how Hammer Spin Dash is absurd and always better than the default, but the default was already really great.) Additionally, Robin's other custom options are... of minimal value, if worth taking at all.

Edit:
What's more, while I wouldn't call Robin a gimmick, a lot of his gameplay is single-mindedly about charging Thoron(+). (Not a bad thing! Thoron is crazy!) This means that customs let many characters optimize against this singular obsession. Mobility and faster/longer-range projectile options penalize him a lot.

If not for Speed Thunder as a counter-option in the worst cases, Robin might even not benefit overall from customs being allowed on both sides.

Disagree a little on Rosalina as well. Although I did earlier suggest that Bowser with customs > Rosalina with customs, I don't think that she gets that much worse relative to other characters with customs on, because Luma Warp and Speedy Starbit are really all that they're made out to be. Speedy starbit ups her camp game significantly (it's like having an old Falco laser), allowing her to harass low-mobility characters such as Robin, and with Speedy Starbit she doesn't need Luma shot anymore so she doesn't have to put Luma in as much risk as she would otherwise; Warp is less risky than shot, and she can quickly recall Luma after using Warp. In addition, not every character has an easy way to get rid of Luma.

 

[Radical Larry]

Stop repeating this! You can just hold down and survive, I confirmed it.

It's still something that people need to be aware of, and that up-b is still a great move in general, but it's just not that relevant to balance or competitive standing of the character.



I guess I wasn't really feeling it.

But yeah, put Shulk at average and moved Mega Man up to merely "worse"; Skull Barrier is a legitimately acceptable reflector in many matchups.

I feel Link's Power Bow and Meteor Bombs would give him a higher advantage, due to the insane knockback and power the Power Bow has, and the self-explanatory capabilities of the Meteor Bombs with their range as well.

How do you feel on them?

(Every time I think of Power Bow, and every time I see it connect, I feel like saying "KER-POP!" every time.)

 

[cAm8ooo]

Yoshi, the pinball master!

lol ganon is a threat nothing to grant

Ehh, sorry. I actually think Ganon is a decent character. Especially with customs, thats a whole new ball game. Just in context of comparing him to Fox they arent much a like.

 

[popsofctown]

Disagree a little on Rosalina as well. Although I did earlier suggest that Bowser with customs > Rosalina with customs, I don't think that she gets that much worse relative to other characters with customs on, because Luma Warp and Speedy Starbit are really all that they're made out to be. Speedy starbit ups her camp game significantly (it's like having an old Falco laser), allowing her to harass low-mobility characters such as Robin, and with Speedy Starbit she doesn't need Luma shot anymore so she doesn't have to put Luma in as much risk as she would otherwise; Warp is less risky than shot, and she can quickly recall Luma after using Warp. In addition, not every character has an easy way to get rid of Luma.

SHHHHH
No one has to know
ok

Rosalina is really bad when you allow custom moves. Everyone focus on your other matchups.

 

[cAm8ooo]

SHHHHH
No one has to know
ok

Rosalina is really bad when you allow custom moves. Everyone focus on your other matchups.

I don't think Rosalina is really bad when you allow custom moves but i do think people were way too quick to jump on the "brawl metaknight" status. I think partly what has made Rosalina so good in the early metagame is people's misunderstanding of how to deal with her. Separating Luma from her is much easier than you would think. And killing Luma is as easy as knocking her off stage since Rosalina can't regain control of Luma until he/she (it?) touches the ground. As characters learn their best options to kill Luma the matchup will become easier. Now, of course, Rosalina will be developing as well but I think the shouts of OP will remain in the early metagame. I feel as if Rosalina will stay in the top 5 but I have my doubts that she will end up being the best character.

On another note, I'm generally impressed with how balanced this game seems early on.

 

[Thinkaman]

Disagree a little on Rosalina as well. Although I did earlier suggest that Bowser with customs > Rosalina with customs, I don't think that she gets that much worse relative to other characters with customs on, because Luma Warp and Speedy Starbit are really all that they're made out to be. Speedy starbit ups her camp game significantly (it's like having an old Falco laser), allowing her to harass low-mobility characters such as Robin, and with Speedy Starbit she doesn't need Luma shot anymore so she doesn't have to put Luma in as much risk as she would otherwise; Warp is less risky than shot, and she can quickly recall Luma after using Warp. In addition, not every character has an easy way to get rid of Luma.

I agree that Speedy Star Bit is amazing, but it isn't quite old Falco laser. It feels overwhelming at first, but has some important limitations that make the move way more manageable with experience.

• If Rosalina uses it in the air, Luma sticks in place and is momentarily separated. Aerial repeat use is more limited that similar laser-style projectiles.
• Reflecting the star bit always hits Luma as a result of that too. This is not true for similar projectiles done in the air.
• It's not as fast as similar moves (in any regard), though the damage (5/4%) is quite good.
• When Luma is separated, the coverage and stage control of the move becomes way worse.
• Rosalina can't use at all it if Luma is in tumble or dead.

Luma Warp is imo better than Luma Shot, but isn't amazing. It tends to get predictable, and does trivial damage--the combos out of it aren't reliable/consistent in my experience. Additionally, it tends to be a relatively risky separation. Luma is almost always vulnerable to being punted with an aerial out of Warp; it still must be used responsibly.

Characters that get better customs for dealing with Rosalina, often specifically Luma:
Fast Fireball outspams Speedy Star Bit, which he can safely reflect anyway. Explosive Jump Punch is probably scary for Rosalina, she dies vertically very easily.
Bouncing Fireball gives him a reasonable harassment approach for Luma, and his Tornado. Clothesline Tornado could hypothetically be taken as a Luma killer.
Side-b options might be better, but I strongly doubt this is a bad matchup for her to begin with.
So there's this move called Dash Claw...
Lick is pretty great against Luma, especially since Egg Lay isn't as good. Eggs also win trades with Speedy Star Bit.
Koopa Drift (kart 2) and Big Mechakoopas destroy Luma. Hard. Piercing Cannon might be a plus too, but I can actually see him taking the default as a Luma killer too.
Benefits little, but he does appreciate the faster bike to close the distance and recover that much better. Due to his aerial speed, he doesn't care as much about Speedy Star Bit as most.
Short-Order Chef outspams Speedy Star Bit, which is a 42% (raw) Bucket anyway...
Kong Cyclone melts Luma.
Battering Banana Peel is way more effective if it hits Luma; normal Bananas do essentially nothing!
Not sure if Power Bow would actually work in this matchup, but if it hits it EASILY OHKOs Luma. Piercing Arrows would also be better than the default here. Ripping Boomerang is great against Luma. Regular Boomerang probably better than default too. Also, he can hyrule shield Speedy Star Bit.
Has a reflector for Speedy Star Bit, and all forms of Din's Fire are more viable traps on Luma than real characters. (No good in neutral though, naturally.) All forms of Phantom wreck Luma as well. Even if she chooses use defaults, Zelda is not bothered by Rosalina's upgrades in the slightest.
I can't decide if Sheik would actually take Piercing Needles. Either way, needles still beat Speedy Star Bit, even if it almost events the score. Her default grenade is poor against Luma; both the others are really good though. Pisces (down 3, the long kick) might also be better in this matchup; Bouncing Fish normally only hits Luma or Rosalina, but Pisces tends to hit both.
Holy crap. Wizard's Dropkick is incredible and beats Speedy Star Bit. His two command grabs, which Luma can punish, can be replaced by attacks that DESTROY Luma. Sheesh, even Warlock Blade stands a chance at actually hitting Luma!
Not unlike Link, many of his disruptive projectile alternatives are a serious anti-Luma boon. Also, hyrule shield.
While Speedy Star Bit is a pain for her, she more than ups the ante with her superior missile upgrades. Samus loves customs.
Plasma Dash (side-b 2) is way more effective against Luma on hit than Plasma Whip, but probably not worth it. (Way less safe) However, Whip Lash is still more effective, and a reasonable option. Shooting Star Kick hits both targets better and might be interesting, but I'm also skeptical. Regardless, ZSS's speed and pressure mitigate a lot of the value of Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp.
Not only has a reflector to marginalize Speedy Star Bit (and side-b!), but with customs can take a way stronger one. Can take Piercing Arrow to deal with Luma, but I'm not sure it's worth it. If not, Guiding Arrow is pretty great and a better option for the context.
LOL. Nevermind Reflect Barrier, Super Speed might be the best anti-Luma move in the game. Explosive Flame is good too. Lightweight is also really good in this matchup.
Assault Dash is very valuable in this matchup.
Close Combat!!!!!
So Thoron+ is amazing against Luma (and Rosalina in general), but Speedy Star Bit can make it hard to charge. He might opt for Speed Thunder instead if he proves to have difficulty with Luma. However, Arcfire is already a decen anti-Luma move, and Arcfire+ (normally a poor choice) is an INCREDIBLE anti-Luma move that trades favorably with Speedy Star Bit.
Copied Luma Shot is neat and seems to to trade favorably with Speedy Star Bit for what it's worth.
Dedede Storm (neutral 2, the one with the repeating hitboxes) destroys Luma, often OHKOs. Good thing too, he hates Speedy Star Bit and Luma ruins Gordos...
MK's main custom upgrade in general is Tornado 3 as a strong, moderate-risk vertical kill option. This is crucial against Rosalina! (Also, it will always kill Luma, which is a great consolation prize if it is blocked.) High-Speed Drill is also the superior anti-Luma side-b.
Might consider Dash Counter to deal with Speedy Star Bit.
Has a reflector to marginalize Speedy Star Bit, has the option to take a stronger (slower) one, and Twisting Fox (up 3) is a decent anti-Luma move.
Void Reflector is amazing in general, and fantastic at killing Luma; who cares about reflecting star bits when you can do that! (It still blocks them)
Discharge is probably a really good anti-Luma move.
Dragon Rush is one of the best anti-Luma moves in the game. Rising Cyclone is a powerful vertical kill move, great against Rosalina.
Ensnaring Aura Sphere is so much better against Luma. The long range Force Palm is probably good too.
Doesn't care much about Speedy Star Bit or Luma Warp. Hyper Voice is trivially better than Sing, which is even more useless against Rosalina than ever before. (Hyper Voice actually kills Luma quite well!) Rollout is very poor because of Luma, so this is the only matchup where Jigglypuff should take Relentless Rollout. Pound Blitz is also possibly the superior option in this matchup.
Rosalina is huge and floaty; this makes Zig-Zag Can amazing. Giant Gunman totally blocks Star Bits.
Better options for spamming against Speedy Star Bit, and I recall one of the side-bs being a superior anti-Luma move? Reflects are good too...
He can just absorb Speedy Star Bits, and all 3 PK Fires are uniquely great against Luma in their own way. The long-lasting one traps Luma for the entire duration, dooming it.
Falcon Dash Punch, sort of like Warlock Blade is a lulzy and effective-yet-dubious anti-Luma nuclear option. Either custom Raptor Boost is important here, because the normal one cannot hit through Luma; both the armor/power of 2 or aerial mobility of 3 are welcome tools in this matchup. Default Falcon Kick is best though, as it's a good anti-Luma move.
Everyone knows Timber Counter is crazy good. Not as amazing against Rosalina as many, but still good. And of course, Pocket beats Speedy Star Bit, unlike the normal star bits!
Tackle Pikmin Throw is crucial for coping with Luma.
JUMBO HOOP, DESTROYER OF WORLDS LUMA.
Same as Mario, but might consider Clothesline Tornado for annihilating Luma.
If Speedy Star Bits prove really problematic, he can always take Dash Vision. But otherwise, Power Vision is such a huge upgrade on its own, and punts Luma pretty far. Armored Back Slash is the ultimate counter for separated Luma attacking you in the middle.
No idea if his alternate fruit sets are better in the matchup; so hard to analyze. His Enticing Power Pellet kills Luma really easily, but I dunno if he'd actually take that.
Skull Barrier is a functional reflector for Speedy Star Bit. Ice Slasher might be worth taking, but YMMV.
Hammer Spin Dash didn't stop being crazy good or anything. It also helps avoid/beat Speedy Star Bit.
Up-b 3i just great against Rosalina in general. This other custom options are way improved at killing Luma too, lots of the meaty multi-hit stuff that Luma hates.
Customs let him take a reflector--also has superior anti-Luma moves.
Has a reflector and decent anti-Luma tools, get way better with customs anyway. (Though less against Rosalina than most, ironically.)


So yeah, those are the characters that benefit from having customs enabled against Rosalina in some way.

I hope I didn't forget anybody.

 

[meleebrawler]

So did yall know:

Brawler has a 0% KO punch now. Edit: deconfirmed by Thinkaman.
Palutena can use Lightweight indefinitely on platforms, ie become Sonic.

Smash 4 shakinnnnnn upppppppp!!!!!

Why does everyone compare Lightweight Palutena to
Sonic? This is a bit more understandable if you're also running
Super Speed, which is rather reminiscent of Spin Dash, but...
She isn't nearly as safe on the ground as Sonic is.
Feels a bit more like Jigglypuff to me. (Though Sonic and Palutena
both can do the run-n-grab quite well.).