Character Competitive Impressions

[Baskerville]

Only has 1 active frame and only works on the ground, but with rage, can kill Falco at 12%. Why the hell is this okay?

Rosalina's Utilt is as follows: frame 9-17, head intangible for frames 4-11, 80 base knockback, and 70 knockback growth. Perfectly fine as move.

Luma's Utilt is a follows and remember Luma's moves comes out 1 frame after Rosalina: first, ground-only hitbox is frame 3 which is 13?, does 8%, 120 BKB, and 60 KBG. I'll discuss this a bit later... Second hitbox is frames 4-5 which is frame 14-15?, does 4%, 85 or 80 BKB - depends on where you hit? -, and 60 KBG. Perfectly fine as well. And the last hitbox is frames 6-10, so 16-20?, does 3%, 80 BKB, and 60 KBG. Once again, perfectly fine.

What's not fine is that ground-only hitbox. It's probably difficult as hell to land despite the Falco player running into that, but what other move has a BKB of 120? Ganondorf's grounded Warlock Punch, a frame 70-71 move that does 30% and has 42 KBG. That's okay. Why? 'Cause it's ridiculously slow which justifies the insane damage, knockback, and super armor. What's not fine is when a frame 10? move can do pretty much the same thing with close to max rage and killing at 12%. Can Ganondorf kill at 12%? Absolutely, but he'll need to land much slower moves and maybe need some rage too.

Seriously? Why was this allowed? Oh, it's difficult as **** to land, but the fact a dude only ran, he didn't attack, he didn't do an "unsafe" option, and he didn't stand there to eat a fully-charged Smash. No, this player just ran and gets that much of a punish for moving. Really!?

Then you have her Uair killing at 50% because you got caught by it near the ceiling. Don't play stupid, but really, we're human; we're stupid. Freak accidents can happen or a miracle for Rosalina players, but when that happens, people lose no matter if it's competitive, friendlies, whatever. That's not fun. It's not fun to die at 12% because you were running or just happened to get clipped by a move so difficult to land. If that killed at 70% with some rage, sure, fine, but 12%? 12% is basically a fresh stock.

Y'know the more and more I look at Rosalina's frame data, the more I question why some of this stuff is even went by the development team.

Sources: Rosalina's frame data and Ganondorf's frame data.

Actually if you look closely at the Falco he was charging an U-Smash. And if I remember correctly, charging Smashes increases the kncokback you take, so accompanying that with the amount of rage Rosa has, and Luma's sweetspot U-Tilt... yeah

 

[Ffamran]

Fun fact. Uptilt can kill Jiggs at 0 with 200% rage and her charging a smash attack. :3

Doesn't rage cap at 150%? Still, that's just stupid how it can kill like that.

Small nitpick, but you're mistaken here. Luma's moves don't necessarily come out 1 frame after Rosalina's. More accurately, inputs for Luma's attacks are delayed by a frame.

Well, she is commanding Luma, but I don't know if anyone really tested exactly when for each move. Hell, people don't even factor in how long jab 1 leads to jab 2. I know that only the sixriver data does.

Also, my own frame data compilation doesn't match that site's. How reliable is Kuroganehammer?

Assuming he's data-mining and counting recordings, probably accurate, but the whole Luma thing and not knowing exactly when they come out probably factors in.

Actually if you look closely at the Falco he was charging an U-Smash. And if I remember correctly, charging Smashes increases the kncokback you take, so accompanying that with the amount of rage Rosa has, and Luma's sweetspot U-Tilt... yeah

It looked more like he was doing a running Up Smash. I know you take more knockback while charging Smashes, but that doesn't apply to just Smashing, right?

 

[Baskerville]

It looked more like he was doing a running Up Smash. I know you take more knockback while charging Smashes, but that doesn't apply to just Smashing, right?

I don't think so. I slowed down the video and you can see Falco's body light up right before Luma hits him.

 

[-RedX-]

Bad play on the Falco's part for charging a smash he didn't need to charge. Just sayin'.
That kind of thing happening is still quite silly.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fun fact. Uptilt can kill Jiggs at 0 with 200% rage and her charging a smash attack. :3


Small nitpick, but you're mistaken here. Luma's moves don't necessarily come out 1 frame after Rosalina's. More accurately, inputs for Luma's attacks are delayed by a frame.

Also, my own frame data compilation doesn't match that site's. How reliable is Kuroganehammer?

What doesn't match sorry?

I used the delayed timers for Luma attacks since they're generally more common.

 

[DanGR]

What doesn't match sorry?

I used the delayed timers for Luma attacks since they're generally more common.

!!! I was wrong in my initial observation. I forgot that I listed the raw values. Most of it matches up with mine.

You may want to list the differences in Luma Fsmash arm/head knockback angles, though. I see that you did this with other angle-able attacks.
Many of my BKB/KBG values seem off as well.

Kudos on the useful website.

 

[Luco]

If losing sets to dabuz is the metric for having a bad Rosalina match-up, then I think every character is bad and Rosalina is broken. The only especially good thing Rosa has against Ness that's unique to that MU is gimping Ness with Gravitational Pull which requires the Ness to mess up most of the time. On-stage, Ness is pretty efficient at killing Luma (SH any aerial or just set off a Pk Fire on Luma which is really annoying), and once Luma goes, Rosa is likely soon to follow. I think Rosa does probably win the MU, but it's very competitive. Certainly the magnitude of Rosa's advantage is smaller than the magnitude of Shaky's additional skill as a player above me, and I like to think I'm not so bad at the game.

I also don't think #3, #4, or #5 are that far apart. Ness vs Yoshi vs Sonic is to me a toss-up where Ness is just barely ahead of the other two so I don't think saying Ness is top 3 means much more than saying he's top 5. This game is too balanced for #3 in the game to be able to say "I win pretty much every match-up". Ness wins most match-ups and in the ones he loses he doesn't lose by much. That's good enough for #3 for me.

I'll just say that if direct tournament success were the whole basis of a tier list then we'd have no reason for discussion; we'd just do statistical analysis of tournaments and math would determine the tier list. Of course, doing things that way suggests that Melee Fox is better than Brawl Meta Knight and that in Brawl Pokemon Trainer is worse than Ganondorf. That would be a direct interpretation of results, and I think we can see that would be deeply flawed since it's pretty obvious both of those things are not actually true. ZSS is definitely well represented in the meta, but it's not like anyone above her is poorly represented (there are at least 12 characters who see extensive tournament use). I suppose the core problem I have with your argument is the supposition that a character who ranks highly in the second tier should be too bad to see success by multiple high level players. I think that's a pretty high position that is more than enough to explain that level of success; I said in the first place that I believe the entirety of the top two tiers are fully viable as stand-alone mains, and I find the tournament results pretty consistent with my theory of the balance on that point.

If direct theory were the whole basis of a tier list, Peach would be right up there next to Mario and Diddy and ICs in Brawl would be god tier above MK.

I'm sure we both know enough to say that theory and evidence should both be looked at extensively when discussing character positions. Ness does kinda badly in the Rosa MU (check the MU thread on it if you haven't already, it's up on the Rosa boards) and this is exemplified by top Rosa mains (I know I keep saying falln with a question mark but I'm relatively sure he hasn't dropped a set either) just winning the MU. I can (kinda) accept a top 5 placement more than a top 3 placement like you said but I'm still a bit iffy about it.

To say we shouldn't be looking at this level of play because they are exemplary players is... I don't know how I feel about that, especially since you talk about Shaky (a top-level player) as being one of the main reasons that affects your opinion of Ness. What if Dabuz was in your region? Nairo? NR? What would you have said then?

True that ZSS being in high rather than top doesn't stop her from gaining an immense amount of success, but I don't see much else holding her back than a sub-par grab and I DO see a slew of good players placing in top 8 with her. I'll refer back to CEO again and say there were 2 ZSS mains in top 8. When does villager see that kind of success, even with his top players? Both tiers should be viable, but I think I can still argue ZSS' viability trumps that of Villager even if in the end, both are great and can win stuff.

I think our opinion divides here mostly because we intepret differently what the actions and placings of top players represents. This is probably why I would also disagree with your placement of Yoshi, and more-so than Ness. But like, I do get where you're coming from I guess.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

!!! I was wrong in my initial observation. I forgot that I listed the raw values. Most of it matches up with mine.

You may want to list the differences in Luma Fsmash arm/head knockback angles, though. I see that you did this with other angle-able attacks.
Many of my BKB/KBG values seem off as well.

Kudos on the useful website.

Angle difference is 361/70 for up and down angled fsmash, they use a subroutine call back meaning they use the same hitboxes regardless of what angle it's on.

Also you're welcome.

 

[Ikes]

Wouldn't Ryu be fantastic in doubles? cause of focus attack and how much hitlag he has on every attack allowing huge openings for his teammate

I could see some crazy Focus punch - Rest shenanigans honestly

 

[Yikarur]

Ike is a fantastic character now. Everyone who is talking bad about his recovery knows Ike only from theory.
His sideB alone covers so much distance and can land everwhere. You cannot react to it and you can decide to land on-stage (with no lag) or to go to the ledge.
The "rumor" that he is slow is completely wrong. He is very mobile, has very fast and lagless attacks,
He is one of the charakter in this game who gets the most rewards of grabs. He can combo out of grabs at basically any relevant %. Every grab is a combo. And when he doesn't combo anymore, he can kill with dthrow a bit later. There are even kill confirms out of Throw combos.
He is extremely underrated at the moment by a lot of people but he is high tier for sure.

 

[san.]

Holding down and towards the stage makes Lucario die earlier to the top blastzone. You need to DI down all the way because that will make the attack more horizontal.

After doing more tests with it, DI straight down is the best way in most situations, the exception being when you're hit with it at the edge of the stage.

First one was DI down, second was DI towards the stage.

Lucario dies at about 93% if you DI towards the stage, up to I think 85% if you DI down and towards the stage and at 78% if you DI straight down.

I tried with Greninja and he lived to 82% straight left and to 72% straight down so it seems to vary a lot.

So basically you want to DI down most of the time unless you're at the edge of the stage or close, at which point you should DI towards the stage. If you're at too high of a % to the point it doesn't matter and you'll die anyway, just try falling out of it. Gg if you're one of the characters that can't escape though. That's what I got from this testing.

It depends. Boost kick hits diagonally, so holding towards it straightens out the vertical angle and makes you go higher (and less horizontal most likely), while holding away lower's the vertical angle at the cost of more horizontal distance.

Holding down may also straighten out the horizontal angle, too.

You pretty much went through all the directions you should hold. You only need to hold down+away if you're hit near the top of the blastzone.

I don't see how Ike shoots down tier lists from customs to standard when the main custom being used is Close Combat. Which is GREAT and all but it doesn't define custom Ike. He gains Eruption customs that work for different match-ups with Furious Eruption for vertical edgeguards, regular Eruption for below-stage edgeguards and Tempest for specific MU edgeguards and also recovery options. Close Combat helps Ike's neutral but Quick Draw helps Ike's recovery and allows him an AC landing option after recovery which can be used as a mix-up. On another note

Why are Ike's custom sets so GARBAGE. I'm honestly pissed off that Ike didn't get 2211, 1211 and 3211 as custom sets instead of getting some of his sets. The best set for Ike at EVO is 2111 and 3111, There's a random Aether Wave set but Aether Wave is honestly almost not worth using because of how gimped Ike's vertical and slight horizontal recovery gets. Aether Drive is also just personal preference because it has to be used different from Aether.

Also who decided that Paralysis Counter was an amazing option for EIGHT sets. Having patches after the cut-off date for EVO custom sets really ****ed over Ike.

Counter isn't important enough to have more than 1 kind since they do the same thing. Counter used to be 74 KBG and was pretty bad. I asked which counter should be used and after a few days paralyzing counter came out on top. Before, there was a random mix of counter and paralyzing which didn't make much sense. You still get a free kill from paralyzing counter above 80%, so it's still around as good as the current default counter. Default counter is just more reliable after 110%.

Default eruption was shafted since at the time 3 was seen as a better version of 1, but we now know the differences (still kind of small though).

All aethers are good, so there are 3 regular(including default), 3 diagonal, and 2 wave. A lot of Ikes end up liking regular aether the most even though all 3 are around as good, if not better in some situations.

Pre-buffed quick draw wasn't too great, either. Now, it's a more useful recovery and landing mixup, though close combat is a better recovery once fully charged and can also landing mixup decently.

Depends which customs needed representation, and all of them needed a little bit of it. Counter is definitely not important enough to take up its own slot unless you choose it over paralyzing, and some people like SM prefer paralyzing.

Assuming the list is:
2222
3222
2212
2232
3232
3211
2122

 

[NachoOfCheese]

To the people who think Ike is bad because of his recovery:

-Melee Fox
-Melee Falcon
-Melee Falco
-Brawl Olimar

Bad recovery =/= bad character

 

[Nobie]

So, CPUs aren't a good benchmark competitively. Of course.

However, it's interesting to see what Level 9 CPUs will pull out, because they're programmed on some level to be doing good things. Sometimes this doesn't work out too well, like when Sheik randomly grenades over and over. Other times, I think it might hint at something.

Recently I'd been checking out the Level 9 Duck Hunt, and I noticed one thing that I haven't seen in other characters: they incorporate footstools into their gameplan. Sure, the Level 9s tend to be unrealistically good at footstooling at just the right time when two characters collide, but if Duck Hunt is hanging on the ledge and you're recovering from underneath, they'll actually JUMP DOWN AND FOOTSTOOL as a programmed decision. It makes sense given how the character's recovery works, and I have to wonder where they got this from. Are actual competitive Duck Hunt players mastering footstools themselves, and this is reflected in the AI? Is this something that the game is suggesting more players do?

 

[outfoxd]

So, CPUs aren't a good benchmark competitively. Of course.

However, it's interesting to see what Level 9 CPUs will pull out, because they're programmed on some level to be doing good things. Sometimes this doesn't work out too well, like when Sheik randomly grenades over and over. Other times, I think it might hint at something.

Recently I'd been checking out the Level 9 Duck Hunt, and I noticed one thing that I haven't seen in other characters: they incorporate footstools into their gameplan. Sure, the Level 9s tend to be unrealistically good at footstooling at just the right time when two characters collide, but if Duck Hunt is hanging on the ledge and you're recovering from underneath, they'll actually JUMP DOWN AND FOOTSTOOL as a programmed decision. It makes sense given how the character's recovery works, and I have to wonder where they got this from. Are actual competitive Duck Hunt players mastering footstools themselves, and this is reflected in the AI? Is this something that the game is suggesting more players do?

I mostly spike, but i have taken stocks from footstools like that by coincedence. I think our recovery is so bad a lot of us dont like the risk.

Also been experimenting off footstools between a gunshot and can but the planning is ridiculous in proportion to reward, like most of Duck Hunts kit.

One of the reasons i wish default can killed earlier. We put a lot of work in just to move the needle an inch or two.

Edit: I guess the computer recognizes we have trouble killing too. With some offstage canwork footstools may well be a thing.

 

[Ikes]

Wouldn't Ryu be fantastic in doubles? cause of focus attack and how much hitlag he has on every attack allowing huge openings for his teammate

I could see some crazy Focus punch - Rest shenanigans honestly

To the people who think Ike is bad because of his recovery:

-Melee Fox
-Melee Falcon
-Melee Falco
-Brawl Olimar

Bad recovery =/= bad character

also dont forget

-Current Ness (not terrible but super predictable and easily gimped)
-Current Falcon (only benefits from the fact that the ledge snap radius is ****ing enormous)
-Current Fox, to an extent

 

[GeneralLedge]

Something that @ GeneralLedge (?) said a few pages back sparked my interest. In his post, he raised the question about how, instead of trying to tier characters based on their immediate viability in comparison to other characters, why not try to tier characters based upon how they play? Such as tiering zoning characters, rushdown characters, and etc. Tiering characters based upon their strengths and weaknesses, and then using that to eventually determine how they stack up to the other characters. This is something that I believe will allow us to form more cohesive discussions in regards to specific character matchups and how viable the characters are in comparison to the rest of the cast, as opposed to us repeating the same processes of sifting through pages and pages of debate that seem to have no end.

The good news is, I'm about done my mock post I think. I've been taking my time and trying to piece it in such a way that it sparks interest and doesn't flop. (Although I've mostly been too busy to buckle down and complete/post it).

Just one general thing I haven't had the chance to really check on:

Should themes such as 'zoning', 'spacing', 'rushdown' wherein characters could be categorized and/or players could focus on, be referred to as 'strategies', or as 'fundamentals'? The latter feels like a more correct term to me (ie. if I use the former people will probably moan about how it should be referred to as the latter), but 'fundamentals' makes it sound like a thing everyone should already be aware of. And, at its core, yes most players are in some way competent at most mid-to-advanced terms and reacting therein. But I'm afraid that if I refer to them as fundamentals, that the actual impact of the discussion would get lost along the way by people assuming all of these things should be taken in at the same time, or that none of them CAN stand on their own as a singular take on the game.

So basically I'm too busy worrying about correct terminology and negative reaction to actually make a damn topic. First world problems.

 

[Wintropy]

I don't think Ike's recovery is even that terrible, to be honest. Sure, it's predictable and turnaround food (Mario's cape, Doc's sheet, etc), but it's difficult to challenge outright and does a good job of getting Ike where he needs to go.

Custom up-b is just...yikes. Aether Drive mitigates just about any criticism I have of default up-b and works as a nasty aggro tool if the situation calls for it.

Is Ike still vulnerable to zoners? I remember that being a tough weakness to overcome way back when.

 

[Ulevo]

Ike is a fantastic character now. Everyone who is talking bad about his recovery knows Ike only from theory.
His sideB alone covers so much distance and can land everwhere. You cannot react to it and you can decide to land on-stage (with no lag) or to go to the ledge.
The "rumor" that he is slow is completely wrong. He is very mobile, has very fast and lagless attacks,
He is one of the charakter in this game who gets the most rewards of grabs. He can combo out of grabs at basically any relevant %. Every grab is a combo. And when he doesn't combo anymore, he can kill with dthrow a bit later. There are even kill confirms out of Throw combos.
He is extremely underrated at the moment by a lot of people but he is high tier for sure.

What are these kill confirms. Can you list them? Are they generalized, or are they character, stage, position specific?

 

[outfoxd]

What are these kill confirms. Can you list them? Are they generalized, or are they character, stage, position specific?

Our PR Ike is a boss at ledge trump back air. Makes it seem unavoidable.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Only has 1 active frame and only works on the ground, but with rage, can kill Falco at 12%. Why the hell is this okay?

As much as I like to take a swing at Rosa's bad design, there are actually many moves in the game that have the crazy 1-hit KO potential, Samus' up-B, Mii-Brawler up-B for instance. The hitboxes with crazy high knockback are intended to lift the target into the position of the next hitbox and when they don't hilarity ensues.
I full agree it's bad design, and Rosa is terribly designed with this just being another aspect of that terrible design, the specific problem you see here is more general though and a good candidate for a patch.

 

[NickRiddle]

Um... That % range didn't look quite right for me so I decided to lab it myself out of curiosity

This was with straight down DI.

I didn't really test the %difference, made the video in 2 minutes, so I thank you for that.
The only reason I keep saying down + away is because most of the time you're hit with Boost Kick near the top blastzone. I thank you for correcting me~

 

[pbjezgoud]

Marth does better in like...ALL these matches and I wouldn't call him viable lol. And Marth has actually won tournaments. Roy hasnt to my knowledge.

lol

Although I do agree with you, is better this time around, compared to Melee (if that's what you are referring too). Roy is just ok. He is strong, but his recovery and combos are far inferior to ...and is also not viable in my opinion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

To the people who think Ike is bad because of his recovery:

-Melee Fox
-Melee Falcon
-Melee Falco
-Brawl Olimar

Bad recovery =/= bad character

Recovery isn't even Ike's biggest problem. He still more suffers from juggle strings, if anything, though landing lag buffs as san said are helpful here. Also of note, while the buffs to QD and DA certainly go a very long way to making Ike relevant in midrange, they're still very high commitment moves.

What are these kill confirms. Can you list them? Are they generalized, or are they character, stage, position specific?

On most characters you can literally do U-throw F-air at kill percents especially if U-throw is reasonably stale. Much easier on several characters who just so happen to be really good, like ZSS, Fox, and Sheik who have ideal true combo physics.

Also would like to mention, even though Ike is sorta telegraphed offstage, Eruption is also one of the best edgeguard tools in the game, at least in certain matchups. Really, that move almost by itself probably swings the Falcon matchup to Ike's favor given once Falcon is thrown offstage, he's basically dying at 50%.

 

[Yikarur]

What are these kill confirms. Can you list them? Are they generalized, or are they character, stage, position specific?

I'm not an Ike Main so I'd miss a lot if I started to list stuff on how Ike is killing.
@ san. @Yoh know more about that.

 

[Mario766]

Up throw f air for Ike is a kill option on fast fallers. Up throw up air is guaranteed on Sheik at kill percents.

 

[Djent]

To the people who think Ike is bad because of his recovery:

-Melee Fox
-Melee Falcon
-Melee Falco
-Brawl Olimar

Bad recovery =/= bad character

I believed in even before 1.0.8, so I'm not one of those people, but...

Only one of those characters () had a bad recovery. 's deficits in this area were exaggerated and the spacies recover more often at high level than most other good Melee characters.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Kinda sorta off topic, this feels like a better topic than tier lists and how2DIboostkick anyways, but I had an epiphany. I'm sure people get tired of my league comparisons but honestly it's usually decent examples most of the time and sometimes I'm not the only one that does it.

This involves the debate between 2 stocks/3 stocks and customs on or off.
All thanks to this post and some disagreements with someone else on their opinion later on in the thread


Most regions in the League scene have different series, which is completely fine. If they all went on one system, even if it's vastly inferior (best of 1) there would 1. Be too many games for analysts to analyze, pick apart, use even more time to watch the games etc. 2. Time constraints. 3. Tiring for the players early on until they get used to it (they already have to play 15+ hours a day for practice and 5ish hours of scrims) 4. Would become stale and not as spectator friendly thus slowly kill the scene.
Though for formats like Bo1, it leaves people prone to being able to try something off meta and screw the enemy team up entirely with their oddball team comp.
TSM Vs UOL with the Jungle TF pick back in preseason changes, or Gravity vs TSM with the Urgot mid pick are two good examples.
Gravity is top of the table right now and the entire season they've been a wildcard with both their picks and bans. Not many regions use Shen as a support but at the same time China/Korea uses Trundle support so we're no special snowflakes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofle...ny_and_cop_on_cops_coaching_style_when_its_a/

That's Bo1 out of the way, but Bo2/3?
Bo2 is more different, it shows either that a team is good/bad if they get 2-0/0-2 by a team or gives them a fighting chance by being able to go 1-1 and shows promise of possibly being able to win next time they play, though generally when it comes to bigger tournaments the main thing people go is Bo1 early on sometimes or Bo3.

Bo3 now is what's prolly the best, but most certainly the most mindnumbing. Despite that though, it helps the team practice for worlds by playing more games and getting used to the format. "alright we lost to cheese or made a couple bad decisions game 1, let's adapt game 2 and after hopefully winning that go off on that momentum and keep playing the way we were while figuring them out more, slowly fixing our mistakes as Game 2 goes on"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlihOMLWVZo&feature=youtu.be&t=1h23m55s

How does this all go into the 2/3 stock debate? Well, 2 stocks generally gives us quicker matches (most of the time) due to one less stock.
Though because we always do the Bo3 format, this might be a bit tougher to figure out. 3 stocks leaves people less prone to a silly suicide or some mid 70+% rage spike to kill us at like 20 cause of one single mistake and instantly losing momentum + most likely game 1 because of that mechanic. 3 Stock gives us more of a chance to bounce back and hopefully take the match, Game 2/3 can happen the same way but still generally speaking 3 stock, while it makes the match/set longer (which in turn either goes back to the players fault or their characters actually unable to kill each other) it still generally gives them both more time to adapt and more playtime to get experience against a character/player.

2 stock is Bo2 and 3 stock is Bo3 basically.
In theory as well, because there's less stocks, people feel the need to play even more safe unconciously. Which in turn, makes matches even longer than 3 stocks. inb4 sonic ditto match or almost any dabuz match at nationals linked by someone
This makes me think of something I believe overswarm stated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whAmI2HdBqw

This is why the 2 stock is used in a vast majority of areas, because APEX/EVO had these certain rules in their ruleset.
APEX just picked up FG rules basically as most of us know, EVO followed suite cause APEX (and every other nation getting their players ready for APEX) had the 2 stock rules and thought it was standard but decided to go about it differently and try out customs to see how it'd go cause I believe AA told Wizard about customs.
Which is why I hope once EVO ends we can get off this wild ride of one or the other as default and just choose hopefully 3 stock in most areas and the main thing people can focus on is whether to have customs on or off.
It all really depends this weekend to see how it all goes.



For customs on/off, I'm still on the side of keeping them off. Areas that're accustomed (no pun intended) to 2 stock ends fast enough already if the players actually try to fight and smash can have really unfortunate things happen to people.
Top player or not.

Whether people abuse 1 custom or not is one thing, but it's still prone to happen with someone getting borked by a custom even if they studied it extensively. No player is perfect, we all mess up or have an off day eventually. We won't always have the perfect DI out of OP BOOST KICK or make the correct 50/50 guess of Sheik Dthrow into Fair Uair or UpB kill.
This is essentially what customs on turns into for some lower tier characters that suddenly become "viable" because of one or two customs.

It becomes a circus of just spamming that one ability, and people trying to find the most meta/OP things about them and abuse it as hard as they can. Villager camp/time out when people thought for a bit with trip sapling, doesn't matter if it never won anything it's obnoxious and boring anyways, DK cyclone Pika HSB Mii brawler one inch punch/helicopter kick etc.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofle...e_is_the_reason_why_riot_doesnt_keep_the_fun/

The whole Customs On thing is similar to how doubles has always been. Find the most dumbest thing you can do and win, at least in Smash 4 and kinda brawl (lucario lucas with Lucario SD and have aura, never won tournaments but still a thing)
Sheik/GnW or Pika/GnW before the patch. Custom Lucario + villager pocket, or just almost any teammate with villager Ness or GnW becomes incredibly strong if they have a projectile.

URF mode was supposed to be a fun mode, but rito was half smart and banned some things like sona Hecarim soraka etc. from even BEING able to be chosen, while giving us a draft phase to ban 6 more characters. The game mode is fun, but while still trying to keep it balanced by banning things it's still of course incredibly unbalanced. Just like Sakurai and many many people with a good head on their shoulders has said.
Customs is fun, I'm still on the fence that if there's ever a point when people start actually banning certain custom moves or limiting them. It prolly shouldn't be the main event for a tournament in 1v1's.
Custom doubles could be extremely fun since Doubles is just find the most annoying doubles characters and abuse that anyways.

To clarify, while I haven't entered customs tournaments. I been around them along with seen of course multiple tournaments with them in my own State and online.
Most of the time, top players don't even use customs, they default to 1111/vanilla anyways. While the more less than prone to get into the money players just use customs cause why the hell not. They might as well have fun and test a few things, or even try their characters one possible OP custom and see how far they can go.

I also still do not like the whole "DLC characters have no customs" as well, it really sucks for them and future characters, which I find is another decent reason to not have them on.
Even if Sheik or whatever next top tier when the next patch hits happens and they invalidate the DLC characters, still unfair say Zelda for example can get a custom to have a better chance at winning against them while the DLC characters are just plain stuck.

This is just something I thought of in the past 5 minutes honestly and typed up thinking of more stuff and other sources as the time went on. This was not some deep intricate topic that's been swimming in my head for months.
If for accuracy sake, then I guess once the Yoshi boards started talking about it and yesterday it had me a smidgen interested in the whole topic for once.

I outz.

 

[Zelder]

Something being obnoxious/boring is no reason to ban something. If that was the ban criteria, I'd ban Sonic.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Villager customs Pika HSB and some other customs were indeed in talk of bans.
And MK has been banned before in brawl :>

Though sadly, only by a few places.

 

[Zelder]

Just because people were talking about banning HSB/Villager customs, doesn't mean that they were being banned for the right reason (though honestly I'd be okay with banning HSB, being able to Smash Charge that move makes it way too powerful with too few downsides on a character as strong as Pikachu).

And Meta Knight wasn't banned for being obnoxious/boring, he was banned for being far and away the best character in Brawl.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

The good news is, I'm about done my mock post I think. I've been taking my time and trying to piece it in such a way that it sparks interest and doesn't flop. (Although I've mostly been too busy to buckle down and complete/post it).

Just one general thing I haven't had the chance to really check on:

Should themes such as 'zoning', 'spacing', 'rushdown' wherein characters could be categorized and/or players could focus on, be referred to as 'strategies', or as 'fundamentals'? The latter feels like a more correct term to me (ie. if I use the former people will probably moan about how it should be referred to as the latter), but 'fundamentals' makes it sound like a thing everyone should already be aware of. And, at its core, yes most players are in some way competent at most mid-to-advanced terms and reacting therein. But I'm afraid that if I refer to them as fundamentals, that the actual impact of the discussion would get lost along the way by people assuming all of these things should be taken in at the same time, or that none of them CAN stand on their own as a singular take on the game.

So basically I'm too busy worrying about correct terminology and negative reaction to actually make a damn topic. First world problems.

I believe that "fundamentals" is the more correct terminology.

The way I see it, "fundamentals" applies to the various general playstyles, techniques, and ways to play in a fighting game. Where-as "strategies" refers to how the characters utilize those fundamental aspects of gameplay, and optimize them based on their moveset strengths and weaknesses.

In other words, characters incorporate and optimize the fundamentals of gameplay to create their own unique strategies, based upon their own individual strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Sinister Slush]

And Meta Knight wasn't banned for being obnoxious/boring, he was banned for being far and away the best character in Brawl.

He was banned for all 3 of those reasons + many many many many more.

 

[⑨ball]

I'm pretty sure MK was actually banned because of some absurd reason like over centralization actually.

It's also really neat to see "customs are jank" posts as it's rather nostalgic if this isn't your first smash game. It'd be pretty interesting to see how things would have played if there was no customs off option and everyone functioned like the miis.

 

[Nu~]

DHD 100% always needs a usable gunmen, zigzag is *** in neutral, but DHD needs it to kill. I consider him top 10 in customs, but mid-tier at best if he was locked to any specific gunmen.

.

That's interesting. I remember you believing that DHD was only high mid tier in customs. What changed your mind?

 

[Sinister Slush]

MK was banned cause URC tried some new things.
Along with the fact he needed it for awhile, ruleset being altered many different times to nerf him more, and the fact he dominated Singles and doubles everwhere by multiple people, sometimes every single person in top 8 or top 12 MK being used.

 

[Vipermoon]

So like, how much more KB do you take if you're hit while charging a Smash attack? Does it matter which Smash attack?

 

[LimitCrown]

So like, how much more KB do you take if you're hit while charging a Smash attack? Does it matter which Smash attack?

1.2 times as much knockback, if I recall correctly. The type of smash attack used doesn't matter.

 

[FimPhym]

This is one of my main gripes with customs. There are too many that are just straight up better than the other options in every situation, and too many that just have no use. I mean come on, what Zard player is going to use anything but the spammable multihit version of side b? What DK isn't going to use the cyclone?These moves become too centralizing for the character. Buff other parts and change these as well as their counterparts, don't make them so centralizing.

We're not the game designers, that's not an option.

You paint a choice between charizard using dragon rush vs being a more well rounded character that uses all his customs.

Actually, you get dragon rush charizard vs to hell with this character I'll use sheik.

Perfect is not the enemy of good.

 

[Vipermoon]

1.2 times as much knockback, if I recall correctly. The type of smash attack used doesn't matter.

How was this found out?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You take +20% knockback if you're hit while charging a smash. It's been that way in Brawl too.