Character Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

You kidding? If M2 had a 108 he'd be high tier AT LEAST

If Mewtwo was heavy he'd be ABSURD. I'd say around Marth-ish weight would be fair but if he had 108 weight his survival ratio would increase to insane levels and his U-Throw would probably create enough salt to power a giant robot.

Basically never give that character a weight above 92.

 

[Vipermoon]

I didn't even think about rage Uthrow kills. He would definitely be absurd. Broken.

 

[Wintropy]

Oh man, I'm probably going to regret this. Feel free to ignore this post if you don't care about tier lists.

Spoiler

I'm...not entirely sure I follow your logic with Pit / Dark Pit? If Pit is just objectively better except for the Rosalina matchup, why place him on the tier list at all? Unless there's tourney representation for Pittoo that I'm missing, C+ seems a tad...arbitrary, I guess?

 

[Nocally]

Also my top tier is entirely blue except for , goddamn it Pikachu you ruin everything

Technically Sonic could be the odd one out, think about your top 4 as "blondes" instead. (Pikachu has yellow fur)

 

[FullMoon]

I'm...not entirely sure I follow your logic with Pit / Dark Pit? If Pit is just objectively better except for the Rosalina matchup, why place him on the tier list at all? Unless there's tourney representation for Pittoo that I'm missing, C+ seems a tad...arbitrary, I guess?

I thought Nairo used Dark Pit?

Anyway I just figured since Dark Pit is only a better choice for the Rosalina MU, I figured he'd be better suited for the "niche" tier.

Either way if you find it too arbitrary you can just place him next to Pit and it wouldn't make much of a difference other than a small change in position for those below them.

Technically Sonic could be the odd one out, think about your top 4 as "blondes" instead. (Pikachu has yellow fur)

... Oh wow. This game is pretty ruled by blondes.

Peach and Lucas need to step up their game =V

 

[meleebrawler]

Ryu is kind of like Little Mac in the sense that people often get the impression they're uber-aggressive combo machines,
but they actually benefit more from a calmer approach via spacing. They both also generally prefer to avoid the air unless
they have absolute advantage but for different reasons. Mac because his aerials are generally bad and Ryu because his low
air friction can make him easy to punish and combo.

His approach varies depending on his opponent. If they're aggressive just space normals correctly and get good punishes whenever
possible. Only use hadoukens as landing traps. Against more patient opponents is where you need to make good use of shakunetsu hadouken. The shield pressure they can apply is real: even a perfect shield doesn't completely negate the damage.
In fact it's almost always better to use shakunetsu in neutral; normal works better against air opponents. Then it's just a matter of Ryu using the appropriate attack to punish how they deal with the shield pressure.

I'd imagine playing Ryu for the first time is a lot like doing the same for Street Fighter: rookie players can often
get impatient when having to approach through projectiles and end up using their jumping attacks a lot, which
gets them punished a lot by players with a better understanding of the game.

 

[Wintropy]

I thought Nairo used Dark Pit?

He does, but he's admitted he doesn't regard them as truly different characters. He switches to Pit only if the matchup benefits from it, otherwise he just chooses Pittoo for aesthetics.

Anyway I just figured since Dark Pit is only a better choice for the Rosalina MU, I figured he'd be better suited for the "niche" tier.

Either way if you find it too arbitrary you can just place him next to Pit and it wouldn't make much of a difference other than a small change in position for those below them.

Nah, it's cool. I'm just wondering why it was that tier of all possible tiers, when their differences are relatively trivial except for very specific circumstances.

I won't comment on the rest of it, since I don't know too much about most of the other characters present, though I will ask if it's customs on or off?

I'm gonna presume the latter.

 

[FullMoon]

I won't comment on the rest of it, since I don't know too much about most of the other characters present, though I will ask if it's customs on or off?

I'm gonna presume the latter.

How to tell if it's a customs tier or not: Look at DK and Palutena's placement.

So yeah, it's defaults, I have very little experience with them myself.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So we've gone from a buff/nerf thread to a tier list thread? Seems like a lateral move.

 

[warionumbah2]

This is pretty much the cycle of this thread.

How to nerf Sheik > How to buff certain characters just because > Worse character in the game > Tier list that spark arguments sometimes > Talk about character that does something cool > Repeat

 

[Deathcarter]

Yes he is.

I'm very skeptical about Ike being high tier, primarily because his disadvantage state is still pretty bad. He basically has Falcon's disadvantage state without Falcons bull**** neutral or advantage state and a lot of people consider Falcon just high. I would peg Ike for top of mid tier if anything.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've never seen anyone do anything but lose horribly with Ryu once his opponent adjusted to what he can do, and by horribly I mean "it's like he didn't even get to play". His punish game is the single best in the game sure, but if his opponent's strategy is to jump a lot and run the clock as much as possible it seems really, really hard for Ryu to do anything. He doesn't seem like he can camp himself at all, and he seems bad at approaching a defensive opponent (poor mobility and awful reward off a grab). It's possible with careful play he can deal with it; I just haven't seen it yet. I actually don't think mid tier is plausible for Ryu because of that. Either in the long run he can deal with lame play and is high tier or in the long run he can't and in that case he's probably not too far from where I put him near the bottom. I actually could believe him being anywhere on the tier list other than mid; I think him being better than Sheik is more likely than him being mid. This level of uncertainty though is why Ryu in particular I felt warranted a specific note of how uncertain I am of his placement.

Doc is probably the weirdest character to place since he's the most inferior of the clones, but being a worse version of Mario is still a pretty great thing to be as the Mario moveset is inherently higher in value than the Pit or Marth movesets. I am assuming customs though, and he is placed near the bottom of mid on my list so I'm not too far off what you're saying?

I think Mewtwo is underrated. Size and weight aren't very important; speed to power ratio matters a lot more, and Mewtwo is solid on that front. Mewtwo also converts grabs to kills which is a very high value thing in this engine. I think Mewtwo is all around a bit too slow for his own good, but he can play a basic poke heavy game pretty well.




I think you're overlooking Roy's strengths here. Roy has a f4 super armor up-B that kills early and an absolutely incredible jab (definitely the best FE jab, super good move in general). Flare Blade is just a stupid move; it's the single safest move in the game and nukes everywhere vaguely in front of Roy with hitboxes. It's the kind of tool every character who isn't Roy wishes they had, and it really works well with Roy's core spatial control game. Fsmash is just about the best reward you could ask for off a read, but I don't think it's really the core strength of the character (and in terms of general uses, I think Roy's great usmash is more important!). Marth has better rewards off a grab and a better set of aerials, but Roy definitely has the better ground game and can reverse a defensive position better because of it (even if he's worse off once he's actually popped into the air). Roy is just so high value since he controls space with huge disjoints and, if the opponent almost but doesn't quite get past that, he gets very rewarding sweetspot hits, and Roy does kill off reads better than any other character in credible contention for high tier which matters too. I think they're very competitive with each other, but based on what I've seen, Roy edges it out. It's very close though, and I wouldn't consider someone unreasonable for thinking Marth is the one who is one place higher.

I don't play without customs so I have to imagine a bit to think of how Marth plays when robbed of several of his most important tools, but within that imagination I don't quite see how Marth possibly competes with Roy in that arena. Almost every grounded normal on Roy is better, and the best aerial on both (nair) is really similar on both. The grab rewards that Crescent Slash brings are, to me, the single largest reason to pick Marth over Roy in the first place so, without that, why would you actually want to pick Marth? Then there's Ike who is just so slow and, without customs, is helpless off-stage too. Ike has some great upsides, but I just don't see him in Marth or Roy's league since his speed is low enough to be a major problem when it comes to certain MUs (this is very similar to the reason why Shulk isn't a top character). I think we have different visions of the balance here.

So you haven't watched trela using Ryu is what you're saying?

 

[Luco]

Lux is local to me and always reminds us all that ZSS is bad. Shaky is also local to me and has inspired more than a little faith in Ness on my part; if Rosa and Sonic really are serious problems for Ness, I sure wish everyone had told us how to collect our free wins against Shaky. Ness might not win every MU, but he definitely has the tools to deal with everything and, when he's going to win, can win so quickly and efficiently. Ness's insane grab rewards are also a kinda big thing in a game where grabbing is so good; I feel like every character in the game sometimes has that moment where they just can't finish their opponent's stock... other than Ness, and that's a really strong positive for Ness.

ZSS's grab really is a big deal, and her moves largely break between "absurdly safe" and "not safe at all". I feel like ZSS at the highest level often has to make high risk guesses moreso than top characters because of this (since you won't win if you just stick to the safe stuff), and that keeps her out of top. Being #12 on the tier list is still a very solid placement, and the high risk guess thing isn't really a problem if you are just right when you do it... but I do have to on some level hold it against her compared to the characters placed higher. Nairo is clearly a really elite player; I mostly consider it evidence of how well balanced the game is that he can go as far as he does with ZSS, and I don't expect his performance to drop because of ZSS at any point in the future.

It should be noted that whilst @Shaky is a literal god ( <3 ), he has still lost every set he has played against Dabuz (and maybe falln??). I 100% agree that all of Ness' bad MUs are totally winnable, but I think Rosa and to a lesser extent Sonic ARE serious problems, or at least in this stage of the meta. Ness' reward for getting the grab is bloody fantastic of course, and that's big, but his hardest MUs are still hard, mostly for other reasons.

As for ZSS, I dunno. Perhaps Nairo is an example of a player doing more work than they thoeretically should, but it's not like this argument stopped Pika being top tier in Brawl. The character someone chooses to place well with is still the character they place well with. It might be noted that my impressions of certain characters are affected by peeps like Shaya, Pazx, etc (or others if I happen to contact them outside of this thread which would happen more if I was in Australia this year), which makes sense since we're involved in the same-ish scene (Australia as a whole is probably more 'united' in its meta impressions than most, you'll tend to hear us quote our top players from 1000km+ away, probably because we're bigger and more communal that way) and tend to experience much of the same successes and failures because we're all versing each other on a regular-ish basis. I think the Australian opinion of ZSS is relatively high, so this may represent a backing for my perspective.

But I digress - not only is Nairo a big contender, but you have to remember that NickRiddle is a brilliant ZSS as well, placing equal to Shaky at CEO. She also has a brilliant MU against Sonic and... a lot of other characters.

 

[DungeonMaster]

This is pretty much the cycle of this thread.
(...) Talk about character that does something cool > Repeat

I see this thread as the stream of consciousness of the forums. Sometimes with great info and other times veering to insanity, but it's a good read.
On that last note about "doing something cool" shoutouts to @Scream for finding and displaying some of the Samus jab1 kill true combos:
http://gfycat.com/PassionateBelatedGecko
http://gfycat.com/ImaginaryNippyFalcon
http://gfycat.com/PessimisticOrganicHorsemouse

 

[Luco]

This is pretty much the cycle of this thread.

How to nerf Sheik > How to buff certain characters just because > Worse character in the game > Tier list that spark arguments sometimes > Talk about character that does something cool > Repeat

Also, you know when you see posts that list the cyclic nature of this thread that it's starting to get a bit stale. Thankfully EVO is right around the corner, and we'll have a lot to discuss after that, including (hopefully) some beginning of a project the boards can get on board with! :D

 

[Unknownkid]

I see this thread as the stream of consciousness of the forums. Sometimes with great info and other times veering to insanity, but it's a good read.
On that last note about "doing something cool" shoutouts to @Scream for finding and displaying some of the Samus jab1 kill true combos:
http://gfycat.com/PassionateBelatedGecko
http://gfycat.com/ImaginaryNippyFalcon
http://gfycat.com/PessimisticOrganicHorsemouse

Impressive! What are the requirements for this work in a real match or more so a tournament match?

 

[Vipermoon]

Impressive! What are the requirements for this work in a real match or more so a tournament match?

I think of Tien Shinhan whenever you post something.

 

[san.]

Impressive! What are the requirements for this work in a real match or more so a tournament match?

jab them when they are in the air is what I got out of that for most practicality. I can also see the 3rd combo working on quite a few characters, even if it's not true.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So you haven't watched trela using Ryu is what you're saying?

I sure haven't, but trela has a long history of doing good things with bad characters. I do know from local testing that it's actually far, far harder to chase down Sonic with Ryu than it is with Ganondorf or Bowser. That gives me very serious pause about the character's potential to deal with a lame-out.

It should be noted that whilst @Shaky is a literal god ( <3 ), he has still lost every set he has played against Dabuz (and maybe falln??). I 100% agree that all of Ness' bad MUs are totally winnable, but I think Rosa and to a lesser extent Sonic ARE serious problems, or at least in this stage of the meta. Ness' reward for getting the grab is bloody fantastic of course, and that's big, but his hardest MUs are still hard, mostly for other reasons.

As for ZSS, I dunno. Perhaps Nairo is an example of a player doing more work than they thoeretically should, but it's not like this argument stopped Pika being top tier in Brawl. The character someone chooses to place well with is still the character they place well with. It might be noted that my impressions of certain characters are affected by peeps like Shaya, Pazx, etc (or others if I happen to contact them outside of this thread which would happen more if I was in Australia this year), which makes sense since we're involved in the same-ish scene (Australia as a whole is probably more 'united' in its meta impressions than most, you'll tend to hear us quote our top players from 1000km+ away, probably because we're bigger and more communal that way) and tend to experience much of the same successes and failures because we're all versing each other on a regular-ish basis. I think the Australian opinion of ZSS is relatively high, so this may represent a backing for my perspective.

But I digress - not only is Nairo a big contender, but you have to remember that NickRiddle is a brilliant ZSS as well, placing equal to Shaky at CEO. She also has a brilliant MU against Sonic and... a lot of other characters.

If losing sets to dabuz is the metric for having a bad Rosalina match-up, then I think every character is bad and Rosalina is broken. The only especially good thing Rosa has against Ness that's unique to that MU is gimping Ness with Gravitational Pull which requires the Ness to mess up most of the time. On-stage, Ness is pretty efficient at killing Luma (SH any aerial or just set off a Pk Fire on Luma which is really annoying), and once Luma goes, Rosa is likely soon to follow. I think Rosa does probably win the MU, but it's very competitive. Certainly the magnitude of Rosa's advantage is smaller than the magnitude of Shaky's additional skill as a player above me, and I like to think I'm not so bad at the game.

I also don't think #3, #4, or #5 are that far apart. Ness vs Yoshi vs Sonic is to me a toss-up where Ness is just barely ahead of the other two so I don't think saying Ness is top 3 means much more than saying he's top 5. This game is too balanced for #3 in the game to be able to say "I win pretty much every match-up". Ness wins most match-ups and in the ones he loses he doesn't lose by much. That's good enough for #3 for me.

I'll just say that if direct tournament success were the whole basis of a tier list then we'd have no reason for discussion; we'd just do statistical analysis of tournaments and math would determine the tier list. Of course, doing things that way suggests that Melee Fox is better than Brawl Meta Knight and that in Brawl Pokemon Trainer is worse than Ganondorf. That would be a direct interpretation of results, and I think we can see that would be deeply flawed since it's pretty obvious both of those things are not actually true. ZSS is definitely well represented in the meta, but it's not like anyone above her is poorly represented (there are at least 12 characters who see extensive tournament use). I suppose the core problem I have with your argument is the supposition that a character who ranks highly in the second tier should be too bad to see success by multiple high level players. I think that's a pretty high position that is more than enough to explain that level of success; I said in the first place that I believe the entirety of the top two tiers are fully viable as stand-alone mains, and I find the tournament results pretty consistent with my theory of the balance on that point.

 

[Nobie]

The funniest Smash 4 moment in recent memory is seeing @Seagull Joe first mention that he plans on using more, only for people to assume he made a mistake and actually meant , and THEN seeing him actually bust out at Xanadu.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I sure haven't, but trela has a long history of doing good things with bad characters. I do know from local testing that it's actually far, far harder to chase down Sonic with Ryu than it is with Ganondorf or Bowser. That gives me very serious pause about the character's potential to deal with a lame-out.



If losing sets to dabuz is the metric for having a bad Rosalina match-up, then I think every character is bad and Rosalina is broken. The only especially good thing Rosa has against Ness that's unique to that MU is gimping Ness with Gravitational Pull which requires the Ness to mess up most of the time. On-stage, Ness is pretty efficient at killing Luma (SH any aerial or just set off a Pk Fire on Luma which is really annoying), and once Luma goes, Rosa is likely soon to follow. I think Rosa does probably win the MU, but it's very competitive. Certainly the magnitude of Rosa's advantage is smaller than the magnitude of Shaky's additional skill as a player above me, and I like to think I'm not so bad at the game.

I also don't think #3, #4, or #5 are that far apart. Ness vs Yoshi vs Sonic is to me a toss-up where Ness is just barely ahead of the other two so I don't think saying Ness is top 3 means much more than saying he's top 5. This game is too balanced for #3 in the game to be able to say "I win pretty much every match-up". Ness wins most match-ups and in the ones he loses he doesn't lose by much. That's good enough for #3 for me.

I'll just say that if direct tournament success were the whole basis of a tier list then we'd have no reason for discussion; we'd just do statistical analysis of tournaments and math would determine the tier list. Of course, doing things that way suggests that Melee Fox is better than Brawl Meta Knight and that in Brawl Pokemon Trainer is worse than Ganondorf. That would be a direct interpretation of results, and I think we can see that would be deeply flawed since it's pretty obvious both of those things are not actually true. ZSS is definitely well represented in the meta, but it's not like anyone above her is poorly represented (there are at least 12 characters who see extensive tournament use). I suppose the core problem I have with your argument is the supposition that a character who ranks highly in the second tier should be too bad to see success by multiple high level players. I think that's a pretty high position that is more than enough to explain that level of success; I said in the first place that I believe the entirety of the top two tiers are fully viable as stand-alone mains, and I find the tournament results pretty consistent with my theory of the balance on that point.

You should probably check what Kodystri had to say about the MU in the Rosalina boards. He summed up the MU really well. Also I'm not really sure why the test is Ryu chasing down Sonic that seems like a meaningless metric. I also call bull on ganon having an easier time catching sonic. I could see bowser because of his dash speed.

The Ness MU is a bad one for Ness. That doesn't mean it's unwinnable for him. Shaky top 8'd at CEO and took a game off of Dabuz. Unless you're on that level you're going to have a skewed view of the MU. Shaky is a great player and probably the best Ness in the US.

You based your Ryu opinion on the ryu's you've seen. You claimed once a person adjust to Ryu's games he's going to fold to the pressure. Yet you haven't seen the Ryu with the best results play. Whatever you think about Trela isn't the issue. Watch his Ryu then come back and talk about Ryu. Your views on ryu are pretty worthless ATM.

The funniest Smash 4 moment in recent memory is seeing @Seagull Joe first mention that he plans on using more, only for people to assume he made a mistake and actually meant , and THEN seeing him actually bust out at Xanadu.

Pretty sure he decided on bowser jr after his MM with tweek.

 

[shadowmm151]

I've never seen anyone do anything but lose horribly with Ryu once his opponent adjusted to what he can do, and by horribly I mean "it's like he didn't even get to play". His punish game is the single best in the game sure, but if his opponent's strategy is to jump a lot and run the clock as much as possible it seems really, really hard for Ryu to do anything. He doesn't seem like he can camp himself at all, and he seems bad at approaching a defensive opponent (poor mobility and awful reward off a grab). It's possible with careful play he can deal with it; I just haven't seen it yet. I actually don't think mid tier is plausible for Ryu because of that. Either in the long run he can deal with lame play and is high tier or in the long run he can't and in that case he's probably not too far from where I put him near the bottom. I actually could believe him being anywhere on the tier list other than mid; I think him being better than Sheik is more likely than him being mid. This level of uncertainty though is why Ryu in particular I felt warranted a specific note of how uncertain I am of his placement.

Doc is probably the weirdest character to place since he's the most inferior of the clones, but being a worse version of Mario is still a pretty great thing to be as the Mario moveset is inherently higher in value than the Pit or Marth movesets. I am assuming customs though, and he is placed near the bottom of mid on my list so I'm not too far off what you're saying?

I think Mewtwo is underrated. Size and weight aren't very important; speed to power ratio matters a lot more, and Mewtwo is solid on that front. Mewtwo also converts grabs to kills which is a very high value thing in this engine. I think Mewtwo is all around a bit too slow for his own good, but he can play a basic poke heavy game pretty well.




I think you're overlooking Roy's strengths here. Roy has a f4 super armor up-B that kills early and an absolutely incredible jab (definitely the best FE jab, super good move in general). Flare Blade is just a stupid move; it's the single safest move in the game and nukes everywhere vaguely in front of Roy with hitboxes. It's the kind of tool every character who isn't Roy wishes they had, and it really works well with Roy's core spatial control game. Fsmash is just about the best reward you could ask for off a read, but I don't think it's really the core strength of the character (and in terms of general uses, I think Roy's great usmash is more important!). Marth has better rewards off a grab and a better set of aerials, but Roy definitely has the better ground game and can reverse a defensive position better because of it (even if he's worse off once he's actually popped into the air). Roy is just so high value since he controls space with huge disjoints and, if the opponent almost but doesn't quite get past that, he gets very rewarding sweetspot hits, and Roy does kill off reads better than any other character in credible contention for high tier which matters too. I think they're very competitive with each other, but based on what I've seen, Roy edges it out. It's very close though, and I wouldn't consider someone unreasonable for thinking Marth is the one who is one place higher.

I don't play without customs so I have to imagine a bit to think of how Marth plays when robbed of several of his most important tools, but within that imagination I don't quite see how Marth possibly competes with Roy in that arena. Almost every grounded normal on Roy is better, and the best aerial on both (nair) is really similar on both. The grab rewards that Crescent Slash brings are, to me, the single largest reason to pick Marth over Roy in the first place so, without that, why would you actually want to pick Marth? Then there's Ike who is just so slow and, without customs, is helpless off-stage too. Ike has some great upsides, but I just don't see him in Marth or Roy's league since his speed is low enough to be a major problem when it comes to certain MUs (this is very similar to the reason why Shulk isn't a top character). I think we have different visions of the balance here.

I don't disagree with everything you say, but your comments about Ike are quite revealing. It's clear you're not overly familiar with him. There is a reason everyone has been talking about Ike. For a heavy he ISN'T slow. His air speed is actually top 15 and so's his fall speed. Combined with his massive range and great landing lags, Ike has a great air game. He's strong and he's got great range and numerous kill moves, not to mention a fantastic grab game. You claim he is helpless off stage, but it's not nearly as bad as others since he can mix up sideB and upB and his upB has super armor. Additionally, Ike has a solid jab combo since the buff. I don't think he's top tier or anything, but he's definitely as good as Marth or Roy and to be fair, many think he's better. In a custom meta, he's definitely better than Roy since Roy doesn't benefit at all from customs and gains some bad MUs now. Plus Roy isn't nearly good enough to ignore a custom meta, while someone like Falcon, who doesn't really gain much from customs overall, doesn't struggle to remain just as threatening. Not to mention that Ike has a good batch of custom moves. In particular his Close Combat side special is amazing. It's very fast, has very little lag and comes with transcendent priority. It's weak (although it can kill off the top from a double jump height), but Ike doesn't need more strong moves and instead massively benefits from an additional approach and escape option and gains the extra pressure tool.

Like I said, there's a reason that so many reputable players have begun talking about Ike, and that's because he's actually good. Now, that being said, if in a years time there's been no results to back up what people have been saying then I guess that means we were all wrong. In the end, results matter the most. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[san.]

With the buffs, Ike's disadvantage is now only below average, just not terrible. This is only bad compared to the best characters.

SideB can be used as a mixup for landing punishes since the quicker startup allows for its use on reaction, and it can go farther in the same amount of time as before.

Fair coming out faster means that he can at least get it to come out sometimes during low % juggles. \If the opponent is too close, he has his 7 frame bair that can hit a little bit above and below as well. Attacks considered really dumb like dair and uair are now only a little dumb if that matters much, since you can at least avoid a heavy punish better if they shield it now.

Nair is alright if there is sufficient space and helps against landing traps, too. Ike's better air speed makes it so that a fully retreating nair is tougher to punish. Nair's hitbox is also superior in the back.


Ike's playstyle isn't too appealing to many competitive players IMO, so I think he's not going to be used much unless he gets a buff that enhances quick draw's mobility more. I believe that current mains will just do a little better with him, that's all.

Still labbing with him anyways, though.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Impressive! What are the requirements for this work in a real match or more so a tournament match?

The sourspots of up-air come out naturally from a short-hop airdodge, and fast-fall cross-up up-air is a common approach option. Also like @ san. said, a simple jump.
We've investigated extensively the properties of the sourspots of up-air, you basically have a 6 frame advantage minimum against your target, even if the combo counter does not always register it as a true combo in real terms it is.
As for seeing it in tournament I'm confident a pro like Esam could pick it up quickly. For mere mortals the timing is quite strict, like everything Samus it's complicated, you need excellent character control and precise conditioned reflexive inputs for a real match. It's definitely not up-tilt, up-tilt, up-tilt if that's what your asking, you have few frames to work with.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Loving the Samus new combos. Pretty good and maybe will use it in some matches in For Glory.

About Ike, he definetily got so much better. Now I have been having trouble with many Ike's. He got such a good moveset and now he's fast. Even though he was ment to be a heavy weight. He can kill pretty good with even Dash Attack. And he kills earlier than Roy with his Dash Attack. Also Up Throw into Up B is huge damage. He really deserves to be high-mid tier.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

This is pretty much the cycle of this thread.

How to nerf Sheik > How to buff certain characters just because > Worse character in the game > Tier list that spark arguments sometimes > Talk about character that does something cool > Repeat

In regards to this, I believe one of the biggest reasons that causes this is simply because of just how many characters in the game there are.

People have a good idea on who's top, and also have a good idea on who is bottom. But when it comes to the middle part of the cast? Conversations that revolve around this tend to be a mess of debates, bias, and lack of information/experience with said characters

And quite honestly, I don't blame people because of that. After all, we are debating the matchups of 55 different characters. Which is really absurb when you consider how many actual matchups that includes. And this becomes even more of a problem to try to decipher when you throw in how this is the most balanced game in the series, along with balance patches. Even the most knowledgeable of players, such as ZeRo, will make many mistakes/assumptions in regards to the how characters function and their overall comparative viability simply because it is way too much knowledge and information for almost anybody to take in.


So how are we to address this, if our current conversations simply aren't working as well as we want them to? Our best bet would probably be trying to find a different solution to try to reach this topic's goal.


Something that @GeneralLedge (?) said a few pages back sparked my interest. In his post, he raised the question about how, instead of trying to tier characters based on their immediate viability in comparison to other characters, why not try to tier characters based upon how they play? Such as tiering zoning characters, rushdown characters, and etc. Tiering characters based upon their strengths and weaknesses, and then using that to eventually determine how they stack up to the other characters. This is something that I believe will allow us to form more cohesive discussions in regards to specific character matchups and how viable the characters are in comparison to the rest of the cast, as opposed to us repeating the same processes of sifting through pages and pages of debate that seem to have no end. And these pages are filled with clutter such as overly extensive amounts of balance patch wishes, tier lists, specific character "propaganda", and other distractions.


Now, you could tier characters based off of things such as "damage output", "footsies", "recovery", "KO Potential", "mobility", and all that jazz. And that would be fine for the most part. However, that could also spark issues/debates on how there would be too many elements to try to factor in, or even the inverse of that in which people could complain about the lack of a certain aspect not being factored in. So this method could cause a bit of confusion and derailment on its own, unfortunately.

However, there is a way for us to look at the game's matchups in their most simplistic and purest form, thankfully. And that would be a character's advantage, neutral, and disadvantaged states.

If we were to focus our efforts into finding how the characters compare to eachother using these three statistics, and make a comparative list for each state (or giving a numerical value/etc to represent how that character preforms in that state overall), we could potentially use this information to have a better understanding on the most likely probabilities on how matchups in the game play out.


As an example, lets try to approach this method by giving characters a value to represent how they preform in each category. Let's say...stars, maybe? Idk. But for now, lets roll with that. Now, here's an example of how I would value a character's three states:



Advantage: ★★★
Neutral: ★★★
Disadvantage: ★★★


Note that this doesn't actually represent how I feel about Pit (...well it kinda does but moving on for the sake of the discussion), but it does give an example on what I am going with. Using this, we can immediately tell that Pit is a well-rounded character. Let's say that 5 stars is the maximum value you can give a character. But what about minimum value? Let's look at another character:



Advantage: ★☆
Neutral: ★
Disadvantage: ☆


The minimum value would be represented with a hollow, or "half" star. Also, this example seriously doesn't represent how I feel about Robin. I'm pretty unknowledgeable when it comes to Robin. It is just an example, lol

What do these stars mean, you ask? Well, there's two ways we could go about adding "value" to these stars (Or potentially more? I'm only going to cover two though). The first being how there's 55 characters in the roster. What I mean by this is that the stars could relate to how a character preforms in that area in comparison to the rest of the cast. A single ☆ could mean that the character is in the bottom 10 of the roster. So 55th place to 46th place. ★ could mean that they are in 45th to 41th place. ★☆ would be 40th to 36th place. All the way to ★★★★★, which would mean that a character is somewhere between 5th to 1st place...in regards to that particular statistic anyways.

The second method would be sectioning up each state into different categories. For example:


Advantaged State:
- Damage Output. Includes combo potential.
- KO Potential. Includes KO Confirms.
- Frame advantage. Includes startup frames, and endlag.
- etc


Of course, the problem with this method would be what I mentioned earlier. In regards to how many categories would be included (for each state). This would affect the values/amount of stars, could cause different amounts of stars for each category, and could end up being jarring to look at. Therefore, as of right now, I am currently leaning towards the former method in regards to placing values for this silly suggestion of mine.



Anyways though, this is all just theorycrafting from me. Something like this could be confusing and distracting to try to keep up with in this thread, so this idea of mine could have a thread of its own...if enough people like the idea, and think it would be useful to discuss anyways. Or at least interesting to discuss at the very least.

I think this could potentially work, as it would give everyone a goal to work towards. Instead of people trying to pitch several different ideas within this thread (tier lists/balance suggestions/etc), everyone would be working towards a particular goal instead. And if we were able to find out the stats for how the characters preform in each stage, this could lead to a more cohesive and focused discussion for how each character preforms in a particular matchup. Such as my examples for Pit and Robin. Using the stat examples that I posted above, one can immediately determine that Pit would have an advantageous matchup against Robin. However, this information will become more complex and detailed when characters have more similarly comparable stats between eachother. Regardless, it can provide a quick and easy means to see how characters, especially in the middle tiers, stack up to eachother. And while it definitely wouldn't reduce all arguments for character matchups (and the statistics themselves for that matter), it could be a foundation which people can find more things to agree upon, and potentially lead to more progress in regards to determining character viability.

Apologies to those who have endured my ramblings, lol



Oh, and there could be plenty of other suggestions (probably much better than mine) that could potentially achieve the goal of this topic. This is just one of them.

Basically, I just feel as though the current method(s) this topic is using is just not getting the results that we desire, since discussions just tend to end up devolving in endless circles. And when people post here, we usually work as individuals and in a very unorganized fashion, towards our own goals. But if we were to think outside of the box, and try to approach these discussions from a different angle, maybe we could do a lot better to work as a true group instead, towards everyone's goal or at least this topic's intended goals instead.

 

[san.]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Owju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=440614687

These use old numbers, so updated a bit:

Advantage on shield drop:

Nair: -2
Fair: -6
Bair: -6
Uair: -3 (will rarely land with the hitbox on shield though)
dair: -10

Aerials aren't too bad, good enough to be protected from most attacks if even moderately spaced. With shield push, it's a little safer to throw out. Ike sometimes moves too far when he tries to attack, and of course an attack right at someone's shield point blank will get grabbed or jabbed. An opponent's dash+shield also counteracts shield push, so he may get punished that way, too.

In other words, Ike has to get pressured offensively a lot more than trying to punish his defensive options while keeping an eye out for his bair since he can whip it out almost whenever he wants, since it's easier to get right when you land, and it pushes a lot more than the other attacks.

Then on the ground, you have stuff around the -10 - -16 area. Ftilt is safer up close (when it was most punishable before), dtilt is dtilt at -10, average or slightly below with well above average reward, and jab can make up for its flaw with mixing up jab2 and then 3 as a last resort, or even just jab1 into other stuff. They are serviceable for their range.

 

[Vipermoon]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...Owju2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit#gid=440614687

These use old numbers, so updated a bit:

Advantage on shield drop:

Nair: -2
Fair: -6
Bair: -6
Uair: -3 (will rarely land with the hitbox on shield though)
dair: -10

Aerials aren't too bad, good enough to be protected from most attacks if even moderately spaced. With shield push, it's a little safer to throw out. Ike sometimes moves too far when he tries to attack, and of course an attack right at someone's shield point blank will get grabbed or jabbed. An opponent's dash+shield also counteracts shield push, so he may get punished that way, too.

In other words, Ike has to get pressured offensively a lot more than trying to punish his defensive options while keeping an eye out for his bair since he can whip it out almost whenever he wants, since it's easier to get right when you land, and it pushes a lot more than the other attacks.

Then on the ground, you have stuff around the -10 - -16 area. Ftilt is safer up close (when it was most punishable before), dtilt is dtilt at -10, average or slightly below with well above average reward, and jab can make up for its flaw with mixing up jab2 and then 3 as a last resort, or even just jab1 into other stuff. They are serviceable for their range.

What are you using for landing lag? Is it 13, 18, 19, 15, and 22? I've heard many stories on exactly what Ike's landing lag is.

 

[|RK|]

Here's a question for anyone: who do you think are the worse characters in the game (not necessarily THE worst) AND what is their best matchup (either a matchup they dominate or an even to slightly advantaged matchup against a high/top tier)?

...I'm curious actually - who does Zelda beat? We've been theorizing that Samus could maybe kinda sorta have about an even matchup with Luigi...

What about Dedede and Mewtwo's matchups?

 

[san.]

What are you using for landing lag? Is it 13, 18, 19, 15, and 22? I've heard many stories on exactly what Ike's landing lag is.

14, 18, 19, 15, and 23, from http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/ike

Might be 13, might be 22, but it's easier to use that and it's easier to use the pessimistic assumption.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Here's a question for anyone: who do you think are the worse characters in the game (not necessarily THE worst) AND what is their best matchup (either a matchup they dominate or an even to slightly advantaged matchup against a high/top tier)?

...I'm curious actually - who does Zelda beat? We've been theorizing that Samus could maybe kinda sorta have about an even matchup with Luigi...

What about Dedede and Mewtwo's matchups?

Snort

Excuse me for a second...

...

(uncontrollable laughter ensues)

Okay, hunkering down. My opinion? D3 may have won against the likes of Marcina and the Pits prior to this patch, and maybe even against WFT (all at a slight advantage, btw). Now? I'm not so sure anymore. Marcina getting their jab1 adjusted changed everything about that MU because now you have to respect them even more in neutral and at high percentages.

...I just proved @ Shaya 's point about changes, didn't I

Smooth Criminal

 

[|RK|]

Snort

Excuse me for a second...

...

Okay, hunkering down. My opinion? D3 may have won against the likes of Marcina and the Pits prior to this patch, and maybe even against WFT. Now I'm not so sure anymore.

Smooth Criminal

I'm so sorry. Anything even?

 

[Nysyr]

Boost Kick killing at 45 is lack of knowledge or stage...
There also is SDI in this game, or are you telling me that if you get hit by Halberd laser you're dead?

Riiiiight.

Oh and when you are making your vids, feel free to use Lucario as the target. You'll either prove me wrong, or you'll be wrong about a character you've probably never even played once.

SDI in this game is a non-factor. I've played enough smash 64 to know how to SDI, thanks.

 

[Gibbs]

Several of those characters are high tier though: MegaMan, most likely MK and ROB. Ike doesn't have to be above them because there's no limit on how many characters can be in a tier.

I don't know how you define top tier, but almost all the characters I listed are outside the top twenty I suspect. They are all definitely not top 15 material (except for maybe R.O.B.).

 

[meleebrawler]

Riiiiight.

Oh and when you are making your vids, feel free to use Lucario as the target. You'll either prove me wrong, or you'll be wrong about a character you've probably never even played once.

SDI in this game is a non-factor. I've played enough smash 64 to know how to SDI, thanks.

The most prevalent thing SDI is used for in this game is escaping multihit jabs.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@Nysr He'll probably prove you wrong. Just saying.

@RKJoker

There's even-ish MUs? Using the wonky ass ratings system that Smashboardians use anyways (55:45?), there are a few MUs where the opposing character is only slightly advantaged against D3---mainly, those that don't drown him out with bat**** crazy neutral and stuff. Current Marcina, Pits, DHD, mayyyyybe Weegee? I dunno, I don't believe ANY non-ditto MU in any fighting game, even Smash, is truly 50:50.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Emblem Lord]

So you haven't watched trela using Ryu is what you're saying?

Said it before but Trela isnt even tapping Ryus movement options.

@ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY you know what im talking bout. lol.

But yeah Its way too soon for anyone to tier Ryu. He has an ocean of depth in a game where most chars never move past the kiddie pool.

 

[Vipermoon]

14, 18, 19, 15, and 23, from http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/ike

Might be 13, might be 22, but it's easier to use that and it's easier to use the pessimistic assumption.

Forgot to check Kurogane actually. When I looked at it, it seemed Dair was no laggier than air dodge and that Nair looked like a 13 but that's just feel. @KuroganeHammer I'm assuming you got these numbers in your own testing? If so, I trust it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also for the record.

I think Ryu stomps Sonic into the ground.

The hedgehog cannot approach and is punished horrendously for taking any risks. Tatsu edgeguard also very strong vs him.

 

[|RK|]

@Nysr He'll probably prove you wrong. Just saying.

@RKJoker

There's even-ish MUs? Using the wonky *** ratings system that Smashboardians use anyways (55:45?), there are a few MUs where the opposing character is only slightly advantaged against D3---mainly, those that don't drown him out with bat**** crazy neutral and stuff. Current Marcina, Pits, DHD, mayyyyybe Weegee? I dunno, I don't believe ANY non-ditto MU in any fighting game, even Smash, is truly 50:50.

Smooth Criminal

That's fair; thanks for your input!