Character Competitive Impressions

[TriTails]

What are people's opinions on ?

I've seen people putting her in Top 2. But if she really does have many bad MUs then I'm not seeing it. I used to think she loses to no one but that might've been wrong.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay, hunkering down. My opinion? D3 may have won against the likes of Marcina and the Pits prior to this patch, and maybe even against WFT (all at a slight advantage, btw). Now? I'm not so sure anymore. Marcina getting their jab1 adjusted changed everything about that MU because now you have to respect them even more in neutral and at high percentages.

I mean I suppose jab 1 sucks for DDD but Marth definitely benefits more against characters that jab outranges. I still think DDD wins very slightly. The Nair, Utilt, DS (for OoS) buffs don't matter too much either because, again, range. Add this to the usual DDD v. Marth MU notes like how Marth's Uthrow is useless against DDD or how he can barely edgeguard him (Marth's best MUs are against characters he easily gimps), and obviously the large range difference which is something that severely hurts Marth's approach.

Is D3's grab range still godly (or at least good)? Marth struggles if he's easily shield grabbed.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And I should probably add that I'm spitballing it a little bit. Your mileage may vary.

@ Vipermoon

I wouldn't say Brawl-level goofy insofar as range, but it's pretty damn good

Smooth Criminal

 

[san.]

Forgot to check Kurogane actually. When I looked at it, it seemed Dair was no laggier than air dodge and that Nair looked like a 13 but that's just feel. @KuroganeHammer I'm assuming you got these numbers in your own testing? If so, I trust it.

Numbers have been slightly off before, but within 1 frame is good enough to use. Ksizzle's video has nair at 13 frames and dair as 23 frames so it's still up in the open.

Ike's meta is still underdeveloped since the skill ceiling's been raised with trap, mixup, and high % combo potential. Dash attack is also good for a read-based player. Only a few Ikes have even started to implement footstool setups, among other things I still need to look into.

 

[DD_]

I don't know how you define top tier, but almost all the characters I listed are outside the top twenty I suspect. They are all definitely not top 15 material (except for maybe R.O.B.).

I think this discussion raises an important question, one that Zero touches on a lot. If we disregard tiers and just look at which characters can win a major where is the borderline for this? This isn't something we can put a static number on but it also can't be the whole cast. I think evo will do wonders for data on things like this however obvs customs on/off is also a factor.

If we look at the characters who are winning majors, how much variety do we have and how much do people think we can be talking about?

 

[NickRiddle]

Riiiiight.

Oh and when you are making your vids, feel free to use Lucario as the target. You'll either prove me wrong, or you'll be wrong about a character you've probably never even played once.

SDI in this game is a non-factor. I've played enough smash 64 to know how to SDI, thanks.

Video DIing ZSS Boost Kick as Lucario?
SDI as Lucario?

No dialogue, but it's simple.
Dying at 73 with no DI, living up to 77 WITH DI.
SDIing through Halberd lasers.
If that's not what you meant, please be more specific and I'll debunk that too~ (Except maybe Fox jabs because I don't fully understand them yet)

 

[Lavani]

For what it's worth, Boost Kick has a 0 SDI multiplier, because God has forsaken us.

 

[NickRiddle]

For what it's worth, Boost Kick has a 0 SDI multiplier, because God has forsaken us.

Hit ZSS with that good 66/33 of DI in or out.

 

[Lavani]

Hit ZSS with that good 66/33 of DI in or out.

I didn't mean to imply there wasn't any counterplay to it, merely pointing it out since SDI and Boost Kick were both topics.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And that's with a smidgeon of Rage.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Vipermoon]

You DI straight down against Boost KIck correct?

 

[MrTeddyBear]

You DI straight down against Boost KIck correct?

I thought it was down and away.

 

[NickRiddle]

I didn't mean to imply there wasn't any counterplay to it, merely pointing it out since SDI and Boost Kick were both topics.

To my knowledge, he was arguing two different things.

And that's with a smidgeon of Rage.

Smooth Criminal

No rage in training mode.

You DI straight down against Boost KIck correct?

Down and away

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I forgot about that, RIP me.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nysyr]

I would consider 5% difference extremely weak when the optimal angle to DI away from a move makes you die faster off the side because they left horizontal vectoring in. Kami didn't die off the top in the CEO clip I linked, it was off the side.

I only mentioned SDI because I recall glacing over someone saying you could SDI out of boost kick, which isn't really true considering most multi-hit moves in sm4sh have little to no SDI multiplier, unlike halberd lasers.

But I guess you got me, you can DI correctly with boost kick in the middle of the stage. I only have a 3ds since I left college so I can't test DI with other characters myself.

Edit: Testing from the starting play on BF I consistently kill Lucario out of a grab starting at 30% (dthrow uairx2 up-b) without dropping the combo meter. Remind me not to play ZSS on halberd or smashville ever jesus christ.

 

[FullMoon]

Video DIing ZSS Boost Kick as Lucario?
SDI as Lucario?

No dialogue, but it's simple.
Dying at 73 with no DI, living up to 77 WITH DI.
SDIing through Halberd lasers.
If that's not what you meant, please be more specific and I'll debunk that too~ (Except maybe Fox jabs because I don't fully understand them yet)

Um... That % range didn't look quite right for me so I decided to lab it myself out of curiosity

Down and away

This was with straight down DI.

 

[Vipermoon]

Even without a multiplier, it could just be that SDI is simply weak. Like DI. As far as "SDing" out of Boost Kick with it's 0.0 multipler. It's simply the move not working properly.

What I want to know is, why does Boost Kick connect better at higher percents? Is it some kind of negative KBG/BKB? That's suggestion is mostly a joke but there has to be some reason.

Edit:

Um... That % range didn't look quite right for me so I decided to lab it myself out of curiosity

This was with straight down DI.

HA!!!!! Straight down!

 

[Nysyr]

Um... That % range didn't look quite right for me so I decided to lab it myself out of curiosity

This was with straight down DI.

That sounds more like optimal DI taking in horizontal vectoring. The move seems to be acting like a reverse Sakurai angle, where the higher your % the lower of an angle it sends you at; or at least the horizontal growth outweighs the vertical growth.

So basically its more where you get caught with the move.

 

[-RedX-]

Did you try holding towards the stage?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You should probably check what Kodystri had to say about the MU in the Rosalina boards. He summed up the MU really well. Also I'm not really sure why the test is Ryu chasing down Sonic that seems like a meaningless metric. I also call bull on ganon having an easier time catching sonic. I could see bowser because of his dash speed.

The Ness MU is a bad one for Ness. That doesn't mean it's unwinnable for him. Shaky top 8'd at CEO and took a game off of Dabuz. Unless you're on that level you're going to have a skewed view of the MU. Shaky is a great player and probably the best Ness in the US.

You based your Ryu opinion on the ryu's you've seen. You claimed once a person adjust to Ryu's games he's going to fold to the pressure. Yet you haven't seen the Ryu with the best results play. Whatever you think about Trela isn't the issue. Watch his Ryu then come back and talk about Ryu. Your views on ryu are pretty worthless ATM.



Pretty sure he decided on bowser jr after his MM with tweek.

I'm sorry to do this to you; I really am. I feel like you didn't grasp anything I was saying and are talking about things that don't really matter like how good various players are. That Sonic metric was very carefully chosen; Sonic is the core test of a lame-out. Ganon actually deals with it way better than Bowser, but both deal with it better than Ryu. I have actually studied Ryu (and all characters) in great depth, but no, watching other people play isn't even close to the main way I gain understanding about the game. I'd be offended that you seem to assume that I have been making assertions about Ryu without good reasons on my end (the fact that I admit that he could be way better than he seems right now does *not* mean that I don't have substantial reasons to assume for now that he's really bad or that I haven't put substantial research into his gameplay dynamics). I've made several versions of this post that went into a lot of depth on things, but I don't know if it's really a good idea since I feel like the basic thing I'm trying to say is being lost here.

I don't disagree with everything you say, but your comments about Ike are quite revealing. It's clear you're not overly familiar with him. There is a reason everyone has been talking about Ike. For a heavy he ISN'T slow. His air speed is actually top 15 and so's his fall speed. Combined with his massive range and great landing lags, Ike has a great air game. He's strong and he's got great range and numerous kill moves, not to mention a fantastic grab game. You claim he is helpless off stage, but it's not nearly as bad as others since he can mix up sideB and upB and his upB has super armor. Additionally, Ike has a solid jab combo since the buff. I don't think he's top tier or anything, but he's definitely as good as Marth or Roy and to be fair, many think he's better. In a custom meta, he's definitely better than Roy since Roy doesn't benefit at all from customs and gains some bad MUs now. Plus Roy isn't nearly good enough to ignore a custom meta, while someone like Falcon, who doesn't really gain much from customs overall, doesn't struggle to remain just as threatening. Not to mention that Ike has a good batch of custom moves. In particular his Close Combat side special is amazing. It's very fast, has very little lag and comes with transcendent priority. It's weak (although it can kill off the top from a double jump height), but Ike doesn't need more strong moves and instead massively benefits from an additional approach and escape option and gains the extra pressure tool.

Like I said, there's a reason that so many reputable players have begun talking about Ike, and that's because he's actually good. Now, that being said, if in a years time there's been no results to back up what people have been saying then I guess that means we were all wrong. In the end, results matter the most. We'll just have to wait and see.

"Roy isn't nearly good enough to ignore a custom metagame"... I play absolutely 100% of my matches with customs. I've said it in this topic today but I'll stress it. I have never seen Roy outside of a custom metagame. I don't look at non-custom as a baseline and think about how customs alter it. I see Roy as a character in the normal custom game, I see him showing great promise and performing well, and I then imagine how much more lopsided it would be if all of these other characters were artificially gimped and Roy wasn't at all. I generally don't see Roy's supposed really bad match-ups with customs; as far as I can tell, his worst match-up is Diddy Kong, and that's not really changed much with customs. Likewise, I of course know exactly what Ike's customs do. The only version of Ike I ever see played is the custom one, and indeed, it's way better than the non-custom one. I only mentioned him being free off-stage when I was imagining someone using non-custom Ike (in response to the assertion that without customs Marth, Roy, and Ike are about equal); he's definitely not free off-stage if he's the non-gimped version of Ike that has Close Combat and Aether Drive. I actually think with Aether Drive his recovery is pretty good, and I struggle to imagine the pain that playing non-custom Ike must be since those customs just seem so important to him.

I do know about Ike's strengths. In short, he's a less laggy Shulk who doesn't have Monado powers and who is less exploitable off-stage. I could point by point that and there are lots of interesting fine points between the two that differ, but it seems pretty accurate to me in a more general sense to conflate Ike and Shulk in that way since their core gameplay dynamics seem very similar (and I don't really view either as all that close to Marth or Roy). I do agree that Ike is a pretty okay character; I have to stress again and clearly that I think the mid tier (where I put Ike) is totally viable in this well balanced game, and my view on Ike as "solidly viable but probably on the lower end of solidly viable characters" is probably mainstream if I understand what most other people are saying about Ike. I don't think the fact that I'm very bullish on Marth and Roy (both of whom I think are being really slept on) should be interpreted as trashing on Ike which was not my intention at any point. I will freely admit that Ike is not really used in my region outside of casuals, but I do use Shulk an awful lot and feel strong skill transfer when I use Ike. I sure know with Shulk that the character is super good except for the part where his bad frame data gets him boxed out especially in a few nasty match-ups (like vs Sheik or Villager), and I feel like with Ike I'm playing around the same stuff on a basic level especially since attack endlag really isn't the core problem. I'd definitely like to see more Ike after this patch since I do think he's really underexplored and has obvious potential, but for now, I don't feel unreasonable with my Ike views that remain modest in their positive placement of him (but still positive!).

 

[LimitCrown]

Boost Kick's last hit apparently launches opponents at a 50-degree angle. All of the preceding hits deal weight-based knockback, so the percentage of the target wouldn't affect how well each of the hits of the attack connect with each other. It doesn't seem that it would be the case, at least.

 

[David Viran]

From the center of the stage you always want to DI down when trying to survive boost kick. Only hold down and away if holding down will kill you off the top like being to close to the top of the blast zone. You want to hold down and in when near the side blast zone. You live slightly longer. If you are at the top of the screen and near the side blast zone you are probably going to die.

@ LimitCrown opponent's percent does not affect it but rage does.

 

[Vipermoon]

From the center of the stage you always want to DI down when trying to survive boost kick. Only hold down and away if holding down will kill you off the top like being to close to the top of the blast zone. You want to hold down and in when near the side blast zone. You live slightly longer. If you are at the top of the screen and near the side blast zone you are probably going to die.

Why would holding down kill you off the top early than down and away? Makes no sense to me.

 

[David Viran]

Why would holding down kill you off the top early than down and away? Makes no sense to me.

Down and away sends you the most horizontal.

 

[migul]

Tier lists are fun. EVO will be a really strong data point; here's where I'm at with 1.0.8/1.0.9 pre-EVO:

Top (1-9):
High (10-22):
Mid ( 23-34):
Low (35-45):
Bottom (46-54):
Rock Bottom (55):

Notes:

-This assumes customs legal. If customs are banned, many characters drop but especially Rosalina, Palutena, Marth, Bowser Jr., Donkey Kong, Lucina, Ike, Wii Fit Trainer, Ganondorf, and Duck Hunt. I don't play the customs banned game though so other than "worse balance" I can't really supply a tier list for it.

-Patches played a VERY big role in where characters fell. Marth especially I think rockets up the tier list after the patches that helped him so much, but patches had a large impact on where most characters fell.

-My top tier is weird I know, but people really sleep on both Ness and Yoshi. They have as far as I can tell the best typical damage output of any characters, the best speed to power ratios in the cast, solid movement, and generally deep toolsets. They don't fit classic archetypes of top characters in smash games and aren't as popular in the meta as some others, but neither of those things really concern me at all.

-I'm VERY uncertain about Ryu's placement. He seems pretty bad since his anti-camp options seem not to exist which probably gives him way too many hard counters to deal with, but the upside on this character is massive too. I could be the whole tier list wrong about him, and we won't know for months most likely. For now, I'm assuming he's bad until he proves otherwise, and proving otherwise will mostly come down to showing himself to have a far superior neutral game to what he appears to have at first blush.

-In general I was very harsh on characters who I feel have a lot of bad match-ups. If I were looking at "general utility", Pac-Man, Little Mac, Duck Hunt, and Shulk would all be placed much higher, but I held match-up based downside (including stage match-ups Little Mac!) very strongly against characters since, honestly, there are too many good characters in this game to be very tolerant of poor MU spreads.

-I think the top two tiers are solid mains for competitive play, mid tier is fully viable but may be best served to work alongside secondaries or may just plain have to work discernible harder than the higher tiers, low tier is competitively usable but niche and thus only suitable for extremely dedicated players, and both bottom and rock bottom tiers are recommended against as I don't feel the downsides of these characters are sufficiently offset by upsides (though many of the bottom characters do have contexts in which they can perform well). I think this game is impressively well balanced, and when I put a character at like 30th, it's not because I think they're bad just that I think there are so many who are even better.

Like all tier lists, this is kinda just for fun, but it does reflect my current understanding of the balance of the game. I'll be at EVO and will be observing everything I see very carefully, and my list very well may change within the next week. I can probably explain what I'm thinking with most characters if asked.

What does Yoshi get from customs?
EDIT:

As far as I know nothing special. Egg Launch maybe? But to my knowledge it is only a bit better than vanilla one.

What I thought. What redeeming qualities does Yoshi have when he has a rather poor neutral, gets little from customs, nonexistent results? The highest placing Yoshi's at CEO didn't even get top 16 and the highest placing Yoshi at Apex got 49th(Sky).

 

[Vipermoon]

Down and away sends you the most horizontal.

I don't understand how anything can be more horizontal than holding down on a 50% KB move. Holding away, with vectoring, probably just increases KB.

 

[Routa]

What does Yoshi get from customs?

As far as I know nothing special. Egg Launch maybe? But to my knowledge it is only a bit better than vanilla one.

 

[00-z3N (L.Zeppelin)]

Shulk, Palutena, Greninja y Roy deberian estar un poco mas arriba

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm sorry to do this to you; I really am. I feel like you didn't grasp anything I was saying and are talking about things that don't really matter like how good various players are. That Sonic metric was very carefully chosen; Sonic is the core test of a lame-out. Ganon actually deals with it way better than Bowser, but both deal with it better than Ryu. I have actually studied Ryu (and all characters) in great depth, but no, watching other people play isn't even close to the main way I gain understanding about the game. I'd be offended that you seem to assume that I have been making assertions about Ryu without good reasons on my end (the fact that I admit that he could be way better than he seems right now does *not* mean that I don't have substantial reasons to assume for now that he's really bad or that I haven't put substantial research into his gameplay dynamics). I've made several versions of this post that went into a lot of depth on things, but I don't know if it's really a good idea since I feel like the basic thing I'm trying to say is being lost here.



"Roy isn't nearly good enough to ignore a custom metagame"... I play absolutely 100% of my matches with customs. I've said it in this topic today but I'll stress it. I have never seen Roy outside of a custom metagame. I don't look at non-custom as a baseline and think about how customs alter it. I see Roy as a character in the normal custom game, I see him showing great promise and performing well, and I then imagine how much more lopsided it would be if all of these other characters were artificially gimped and Roy wasn't at all. I generally don't see Roy's supposed really bad match-ups with customs; as far as I can tell, his worst match-up is Diddy Kong, and that's not really changed much with customs. Likewise, I of course know exactly what Ike's customs do. The only version of Ike I ever see played is the custom one, and indeed, it's way better than the non-custom one. I only mentioned him being free off-stage when I was imagining someone using non-custom Ike (in response to the assertion that without customs Marth, Roy, and Ike are about equal); he's definitely not free off-stage if he's the non-gimped version of Ike that has Close Combat and Aether Drive. I actually think with Aether Drive his recovery is pretty good, and I struggle to imagine the pain that playing non-custom Ike must be since those customs just seem so important to him.

I do know about Ike's strengths. In short, he's a less laggy Shulk who doesn't have Monado powers and who is less exploitable off-stage. I could point by point that and there are lots of interesting fine points between the two that differ, but it seems pretty accurate to me in a more general sense to conflate Ike and Shulk in that way since their core gameplay dynamics seem very similar (and I don't really view either as all that close to Marth or Roy). I do agree that Ike is a pretty okay character; I have to stress again and clearly that I think the mid tier (where I put Ike) is totally viable in this well balanced game, and my view on Ike as "solidly viable but probably on the lower end of solidly viable characters" is probably mainstream if I understand what most other people are saying about Ike. I don't think the fact that I'm very bullish on Marth and Roy (both of whom I think are being really slept on) should be interpreted as trashing on Ike which was not my intention at any point. I will freely admit that Ike is not really used in my region outside of casuals, but I do use Shulk an awful lot and feel strong skill transfer when I use Ike. I sure know with Shulk that the character is super good except for the part where his bad frame data gets him boxed out especially in a few nasty match-ups (like vs Sheik or Villager), and I feel like with Ike I'm playing around the same stuff on a basic level especially since attack endlag really isn't the core problem. I'd definitely like to see more Ike after this patch since I do think he's really underexplored and has obvious potential, but for now, I don't feel unreasonable with my Ike views that remain modest in their positive placement of him (but still positive!).

Cool story bro.

 

[FullMoon]

Did you try holding towards the stage?

Holding down and towards the stage makes Lucario die earlier to the top blastzone. You need to DI down all the way because that will make the attack more horizontal.

After doing more tests with it, DI straight down is the best way in most situations, the exception being when you're hit with it at the edge of the stage.

First one was DI down, second was DI towards the stage.

Lucario dies at about 93% if you DI towards the stage, up to I think 85% if you DI down and towards the stage and at 78% if you DI straight down.

I tried with Greninja and he lived to 82% straight left and to 72% straight down so it seems to vary a lot.

So basically you want to DI down most of the time unless you're at the edge of the stage or close, at which point you should DI towards the stage. If you're at too high of a % to the point it doesn't matter and you'll die anyway, just try falling out of it. Gg if you're one of the characters that can't escape though. That's what I got from this testing.

 

[Mario766]

I don't see how Ike shoots down tier lists from customs to standard when the main custom being used is Close Combat. Which is GREAT and all but it doesn't define custom Ike. He gains Eruption customs that work for different match-ups with Furious Eruption for vertical edgeguards, regular Eruption for below-stage edgeguards and Tempest for specific MU edgeguards and also recovery options. Close Combat helps Ike's neutral but Quick Draw helps Ike's recovery and allows him an AC landing option after recovery which can be used as a mix-up. On another note

Why are Ike's custom sets so GARBAGE. I'm honestly pissed off that Ike didn't get 2211, 1211 and 3211 as custom sets instead of getting some of his sets. The best set for Ike at EVO is 2111 and 3111, There's a random Aether Wave set but Aether Wave is honestly almost not worth using because of how gimped Ike's vertical and slight horizontal recovery gets. Aether Drive is also just personal preference because it has to be used different from Aether.

Also who decided that Paralysis Counter was an amazing option for EIGHT sets. Having patches after the cut-off date for EVO custom sets really ****ed over Ike.

 

[Routa]

Now while we are talking about customs... I think more characters should have had same kind of customs as Ike's N-special (Eruption) or Wario's S-special (Bike). They are all viable in their own way and fit for different type of playstyles. It is kinda sad that some customs aren't viable at all or some are clearly better than others. So what other moves have both customs as viable as Vanilla?

 

[FullMoon]

Now while we are talking about customs... I think more characters should have had same kind of customs as Ike's N-special (Eruption) or Wario's S-special (Bike). They are all viable in their own way and fit for different type of playstyles. It is kinda sad that some customs aren't viable at all or some are clearly better than others. So what other moves have both customs as viable as Vanilla?

Water Shuriken for Greninja.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Now while we are talking about customs... I think more characters should have had same kind of customs as Ike's N-special (Eruption) or Wario's S-special (Bike). They are all viable in their own way and fit for different type of playstyles. It is kinda sad that some customs aren't viable at all or some are clearly better than others. So what other moves have both customs as viable as Vanilla?

Wario's Waft and DK's Giant Punch (I believe?)

Waft is a better example than Bike actually, since Burying Bike is kinda niche compared to the other two, but all wafts are good.

 

[Gawain]

Now while we are talking about customs... I think more characters should have had same kind of customs as Ike's N-special (Eruption) or Wario's S-special (Bike). They are all viable in their own way and fit for different type of playstyles. It is kinda sad that some customs aren't viable at all or some are clearly better than others. So what other moves have both customs as viable as Vanilla?

This is one of my main gripes with customs. There are too many that are just straight up better than the other options in every situation, and too many that just have no use. I mean come on, what Zard player is going to use anything but the spammable multihit version of side b? What DK isn't going to use the cyclone?These moves become too centralizing for the character. Buff other parts and change these as well as their counterparts, don't make them so centralizing.

 

[migul]

This is one of my main gripes with customs. There are too many that are just straight up better than the other options in every situation, and too many that just have no use. I mean come on, what Zard player is going to use anything but the spammable multihit version of side b? What DK isn't going to use the cyclone?These moves become too centralizing for the character. Buff other parts and change these as well as their counterparts, don't make them so centralizing.

So nerfing Heavy Skull Bash is a good idea? (I know I sound stupid

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck hunt's gunmen are all great, though quick gunmen are inferior in all but very few situations. Essentially only optimal vs olimar, or on stages like delfino/castle siege where mega gunmen don't provide a reliable zone due to uneven and changing environment, and vs characters who somehow invalidate default gunmen. (Doc pills, jiggly's mobility, etc)

Mega I'd say are best 55% of the time, default 30% and quick 15%

DHD 100% always needs a usable gunmen, zigzag is ass in neutral, but DHD needs it to kill. I consider him top 10 in customs, but mid-tier at best if he was locked to any specific gunmen.

Yoshi gets better in customs personally, but very marginally. He's a good character due to his normals, anyway. Light egg roll, and egg launch are about it... Though I did have some success with using crushing bomb as an air dodge punish (completely worth the risk considering how early it kills). The extra startup actually makes it much better as an air dodge punish due to the stall and positioning in relation to where people will be starting their air dodge. I definitely think it has potential, but it doesn't seem like I'll have the chance to explore that.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

This is one of my main gripes with customs. There are too many that are just straight up better than the other options in every situation, and too many that just have no use. I mean come on, what Zard player is going to use anything but the spammable multihit version of side b? What DK isn't going to use the cyclone?These moves become too centralizing for the character. Buff other parts and change these as well as their counterparts, don't make them so centralizing.

vs
I go with default Dongcopter in this matchup because it beats chomp, which helps Wario a lot since DK is throwing his hurtbox all over the place.
But I see what you're saying. I suppose after EVO we can make some kind of judgement about whether or not customs are good for the meta. Let's just not take this conversation down that road again until AFTER EVO. A flame war usually starts every time this subject comes up.

 

[Ffamran]

Only has 1 active frame and only works on the ground, but with rage, can kill Falco at 12%. Why the hell is this okay?

Rosalina's Utilt is as follows: frame 9-17, head intangible for frames 4-11, 80 base knockback, and 70 knockback growth. Perfectly fine as move.

Luma's Utilt is as follows and remember Luma's moves comes out 1 frame after Rosalina: first, ground-only hitbox is frame 3 which is 13?, does 8%, 120 BKB, and 60 KBG. I'll discuss this a bit later... Second hitbox is frames 4-5 which is frame 14-15?, does 4%, 85 or 80 BKB - depends on where you hit? -, and 60 KBG. Perfectly fine as well. And the last hitbox is frames 6-10, so 16-20?, does 3%, 80 BKB, and 60 KBG. Once again, perfectly fine.

What's not fine is that ground-only hitbox. It's probably difficult as hell to land despite the Falco player running into that, but what other move has a BKB of 120? Ganondorf's grounded Warlock Punch, a frame 70-71 move that does 30% and has 42 KBG. That's okay. Why? 'Cause it's ridiculously slow which justifies the insane damage, knockback, and super armor. What's not fine is when a frame 13? move can do pretty much the same thing with close to max rage and killing at 12%. Can Ganondorf kill at 12%? Absolutely, but he'll need to land much slower moves and maybe need some rage too.

Seriously? Why was this allowed? Oh, it's difficult as **** to land, but the fact a dude only ran, he didn't attack, he didn't do an "unsafe" option, ran to do a running Up Smash and he didn't stand there to eat a fully-charged Smash. No, this player just ran and gets that much of a punish for moving to do an Up Smash. Really!?

Then you have her Uair killing at 50% because you got caught by it near the ceiling. Don't play stupid, but really, we're human; we're stupid. Freak accidents can happen or a miracle for Rosalina players, but when that happens, people lose no matter if it's competitive, friendlies, whatever. That's not fun. It's not fun to die at 12% because you were running or just happened to get clipped by a move so difficult to land. If that killed at 70% with some rage, sure, fine, but 12%? 12% is basically a fresh stock.

Y'know the more and more I look at Rosalina's frame data, the more I question why some of this stuff is even went by the development team.

Sources: Rosalina's frame data and Ganondorf's frame data.

 

[DanGR]

Only has 1 active frame and only works on the ground, but with rage, can kill Falco at 12%. Why the hell is this okay?

Fun fact. Uptilt can kill Jiggs at 0 with 200% rage and her charging a smash attack. :3

Luma's Utilt is a follows and remember Luma's moves comes out 1 frame after Rosalina

Small nitpick, but you're mistaken here. Luma's moves don't necessarily come out 1 frame after Rosalina's. More accurately, inputs for Luma's attacks are delayed by a frame.

Also, my own frame data compilation doesn't match that site's. How reliable is Kuroganehammer?