Character Competitive Impressions

[LimitCrown]

How was this found out?

I'm not sure how it was originally found out. I've seen that value for the multiplier used beforehand, and it's probably correct.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh okay, I knew about this but I had no idea if it was in Brawl. If it was back in Brawl I don't really care for a source, I believe it.

 

[Lavani]

It was actually in Melee, too.

 

[Yikarur]

I'm pretty sure 3-stocks will be the standard. I've seen recent shi-g videos with 3-stocks and I've seen several US Streams with 3-stocks.
(Almost) Every country in europe plays with 3 stocks.

Way to go !

 

[hypersonicJD]

You know? Maybe we should discuss how to get rid of some characters bad match-ups. Not with buffs or nerfs. But instead new strategy's. Like Charizard gets caped by Mario, maybe do an attack before trying to recover to not get caped. You get me in this? I mean, I really do want to apport something useful to the thread and just don't discuss how to nerf or buff characters. But instead trying to figure out new strategy's, combos or setups.

 

[Vipermoon]

MU strategy sounds like a character board thing tbh

 

[Luigi player]

I didn't really test the %difference, made the video in 2 minutes, so I thank you for that.
The only reason I keep saying down + away is because most of the time you're hit with Boost Kick near the top blastzone. I thank you for correcting me~

Why would you DI away?
The reason why holding straight down helps you survive is because vectoring helps more than normal DI. And you can still use up / down vectoring for moves that are in range of ~ >293° & <67° (for the right side, and the left one works as well of course).

If you'd want to survive ZSS' upB so you won't die off the top you hold straight down to vector. If you're scared you'd get KO'd off the sides hold left/right against your momentum. If you could die off the top AND to a side, you hold down and then try to angle it so it helps against the top & side (of course the exact direction / how / when to switch it up depends if you'd die off the top or side first).

 

[A_Kae]

MU strategy sounds like a character board thing tbh

Most of what happens here sounds like a character board thing.

 

[Yikarur]

Why would you DI away?
The reason why holding straight down helps you survive is because vectoring helps more than normal DI. And you can still use up / down vectoring for moves that are in range of ~ >293° & <67° (for the right side, and the left one works as well of course).

If you'd want to survive ZSS' upB so you won't die off the top you hold straight down to vector. If you're scared you'd get KO'd off the sides hold left/right against your momentum. If you could die off the top AND to a side, you hold down and then try to angle it so it helps against the top & side (of course the exact direction / how / when to switch it up depends if you'd die off the top or side first).

For vertical knockack you use DI and it should be called DI because it's what DI actually did in past games.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I still do not know why people still toss out the word vector.
Unless you mean the sonic character vector, please stop typing this word and find the computer room already.

 

[Ffamran]

1.2 times as much knockback, if I recall correctly. The type of smash attack used doesn't matter.

Regardless if you charge it for a split second, halfway, or fully? I wonder if getting hit can cause an accidental charge and assuming it was online, he could have accidentally or the game could have considered it charging instead of flicking a Smash... Then there's not using the C-stick for Smashes... Still, 1.2x knockback shouldn't murder you like that.

 

[shadowmm151]

Okay question...

My brother plays and has recently started to pick up who he's great at. Firstly, just to get it out of the way now, my brother likes both characters pretty much equally. But as I've been exploring different boards and threads I've seen an overall consensus that they play exactly the same way. Only real differences I've heard is that has better grabs (dash grab), combos, ledge game, neutral, approaches, weight and recovery (ironically) while can wall better and has useful disjoints (though doesn't too?). Overall, from what I've heard, just plays game plan better.

So here's my question then: Is there any real reason to use over ?

P.S. This is honestly not hate. I use him too.

 

[san.]

What are these kill confirms. Can you list them? Are they generalized, or are they character, stage, position specific?

Some of these can kill lighter + floatier characters with poor DI.

Light weight + fast fall:

Uthrow->fair at the edge.
Uthrow->uair ~80-90% low rage
May also kill with nair at some % around 110.

Somewhat heavy characters:

dtilt->fair at the edge

dtilt->fair can kill on nearly all characters if they are dtilted at the ledge.

Most characters:
nair->fair at the edge
nair(backwards)->bair/uair
nair(sourspot)->bair/uair up to higher % than the above
dair(non-tech on grounded opponent)->aerial. Lower landing lag allows this to work now.

Reliable, but not a true combo:

jab->utilt
jab->dtilt->kill move
fthrow/bthrow->dash attack (non-tech)
force air dodge with nair/uair->utilt
force air dodge with nair/uair/fair/bair->dtilt->fair

Most of these combo on other characters and may still kill depending on the circumstances, just may be slightly out of reach at high % on the floaties sometimes or it may work just shy of kill %.

In general, Ike can kill with:
Bair, Fair, Uair, Dair, Ftilt, Utilt, eruption, aether spike, dthrow (rage), and dash attack most of the time.

Dash attack can't clank and the higher damage puts the opponent in stun more if it does clank, so Ike may be able to grab, dtilt, or maybe even utilt.

Even if something doesn't combo, uair lasts for 16 frames and kills. It's slightly better than 50/50 in Ike's favor if the opponent is ever popped up. Ike's air speed and QD allows him to follow opponents if he needs to. Even gimmick kills like fully charged QD may work on stages like final destination at 115-120%. Counter is there, may kill if tilts are countered at 105% at the edge, give or take 10 depending on the tilt.

It only takes a small read to kill with dash attack or usmash, especially dash attack. You can also just spam bair whenever you want near kill %. Ike doesn't need to change his game plan to kill anyone. It's easier to not go for confirms and just take the opportunity if it's available. All of his weaker moves have a chance to set up into other moves, and all the rest of the moves kill.

 

[⑨ball]

So here's my question then: Is there any real reason to use over ?

Roy has teh ph1r3!!!

​

aka personal interest or emotional investment.

 

[Ikes]

isnt he safer since he doesnt put his hurtboxes out there to deal damage? isn't falcon a lot easier to shield grab due to him using grabbable hurtboxes to attack?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll tack this on for Ike's kill options on top of San's summary: the combination of Ike's buffed counter + rage is pretty lethal. We've had people killing by countering a jab at sub-100% levels when rocking some rage. Somewhere between 50-100% damage level rage. Lighter character and near the ledge, but there ya go.

This is kinda why after the patch Smash Counter is a usable custom against characters with more ending lag in their moves. It got the knockback growth rate buff like regular Counter did. You can do the math from there, but its the second most powerful counter.

But importantly like San said: Ike doesn't have to change his game plan when it comes to killing time. Our methods for wracking up damage also lead into kills later on. We just have to keep doing what we were already doing.

This is also why another Ike main said we've kinda shot ourselves in the foot for EVO customs. Things that were completely set in stone before no longer are, and we don't have access to what are arguably our best 3 custom sets. I mean, CQC is still great, and all of the Aethers have their uses, but the combinations and the like aren't the same for optimization anymore. Though I still argue that regular Eruption should only have like, 1-2 sets at the most and most of the time its outclassed by the other 2.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

isnt he safer since he doesnt put his hurtboxes out there to deal damage? isn't falcon a lot easier to shield grab due to him using grabbable hurtboxes to attack?

Naively, I'd say Captain Falcon's dash grab inherently makes sitting in shield a less-than-ideal option vs. him.

 

[Gawain]

Okay question...

My brother plays and has recently started to pick up who he's great at. Firstly, just to get it out of the way now, my brother likes both characters pretty much equally. But as I've been exploring different boards and threads I've seen an overall consensus that they play exactly the same way. Only real differences I've heard is that has better grabs (dash grab), combos, ledge game, neutral, approaches, weight and recovery (ironically) while can wall better and has useful disjoints (though doesn't too?). Overall, from what I've heard, just plays game plan better.

So here's my question then: Is there any real reason to use over ?

P.S. This is honestly not hate. I use him too.

I disagree with this idea. Roy can't rely on his grabs. They're way slower and way easier to punish than Caps. Roy is safer vs shield if we don't count grabs. Nair and dtilt are very good. Roy also has much better off stage ability than Captain, especially horizontally.

Roys gameplan Is more about getting the opponent away from center stage where he can control their options and then confirm into combos using stuff like jab or nair etc. He also has an easier time getting grabs here.

Captain actually prefers having the fight in center stage, at least early on, since this gives him room to maneuver around his opponent and utilize his momentum through throw to get more reliable combos.

Captain is more mobile and bait-y, Roy is more pressure oriented. I don't really think they play very much alike at all. The only thing they do together is get dumped on by Olimars dtilt.

 

[DunnoBro]

That's interesting. I remember you believing that DHD was only high mid tier in customs. What changed your mind?

More fully understanding his customs and the situations for them.

Unless the opponent has a great dash grab game, or a specific anti-dhd mechanic (pikmin, speeding bike) he has a good MU vs them.

 

[Nu~]

If someone's main gripe with customs is the lack of absolute equality and not

More fully understanding his customs and the situations for them.

Unless the opponent has a great dash grab game, or a specific anti-dhd mechanic (pikmin, speeding bike) he has a good MU vs them.

I wonder if hydrant launching and high-priority keys could help break through his stuff...

Will probably have to play that matchup more (too bad DHD mains are as space as Pac-Man mains)

 

[LancerStaff]

This might be better suited for the mains topic, but then again people over there tend to think in individual characters then in an overall meta sense, so...

I have a friend who's been struggling in Smash lately, and he's thinking it's because he's spread too thin between his characters. He wants to find two or maybe three characters to focus on. His favorites are &, but then he also likes and a little&. So which two or three of these characters would cover each other's weaknesses best in a non-customs environment?

 

[Luigi player]

For vertical knockack you use DI and it should be called DI because it's what DI actually did in past games.

No, vectoring is different than DI?! If you're talking about getting hit with an angle >68° then yeah we have to DI normally to not die off the top, but otherwise vectoring is used / more visible since its effect is stronger.

 

[Vipermoon]

I feel like in this patch, you win with Roy almost entirely on Fsmash reads.

 

[Gawain]

I feel like in this patch, you win with Roy almost entirely on Fsmash reads.

Up b out of shield is a very strong punish that kills fast and it comes out on frame 9 while also having super armor. Roy can also edgeguard well and can cover the ledge effectively. He doesn't have a hard time earning KOs to be honest

 

[Unknownkid]

This might be better suited for the mains topic, but then again people over there tend to think in individual characters then in an overall meta sense, so...

I have a friend who's been struggling in Smash lately, and he's thinking it's because he's spread too thin between his characters. He wants to find two or maybe three characters to focus on. His favorites are &, but then he also likes and a little&. So which two or three of these characters would cover each other's weaknesses best in a non-customs environment?

Probably Falco and Ike thanks to the bpatch.

 

[A_Kae]

This might be better suited for the mains topic, but then again people over there tend to think in individual characters then in an overall meta sense, so...

I have a friend who's been struggling in Smash lately, and he's thinking it's because he's spread too thin between his characters. He wants to find two or maybe three characters to focus on. His favorites are &, but then he also likes and a little&. So which two or three of these characters would cover each other's weaknesses best in a non-customs environment?

Falco and Ryu, plus Ike maybe if you want 3.

I feel like in this patch, you win with Roy almost entirely on Fsmash reads.

He's got up-special and dash attack as good kill options as well. up-special in particular since it can be done OoS.

 

[Ikes]

This might be better suited for the mains topic, but then again people over there tend to think in individual characters then in an overall meta sense, so...

I have a friend who's been struggling in Smash lately, and he's thinking it's because he's spread too thin between his characters. He wants to find two or maybe three characters to focus on. His favorites are &, but then he also likes and a little&. So which two or three of these characters would cover each other's weaknesses best in a non-customs environment?

I'd say Ryu, Falco, and Shulk might be a good combo but i've been wrong before

 

[Vipermoon]

Up b out of shield is a very strong punish that kills fast and it comes out on frame 9 while also having super armor. Roy can also edgeguard well and can cover the ledge effectively. He doesn't have a hard time earning KOs to be honest

Falco and Ryu, plus Ike maybe if you want 3.



He's got up-special and dash attack as good kill options as well. up-special in particular since it can be done OoS.

I know all about Roy. I was making a joke (kind of).

 

[Wintropy]

This might be better suited for the mains topic, but then again people over there tend to think in individual characters then in an overall meta sense, so...

I have a friend who's been struggling in Smash lately, and he's thinking it's because he's spread too thin between his characters. He wants to find two or maybe three characters to focus on. His favorites are &, but then he also likes and a little&. So which two or three of these characters would cover each other's weaknesses best in a non-customs environment?

I'm gonna have to agree with Falco and Ryu.

If he's going with Ryu, though, he's gonna want to to commit to it. Spreading yourself thin with a few characters is one thing; spreading yourself thin with one of the most technical and complex characters in the roster is suicide.

 

[LancerStaff]

Thanks for the answers. So definitely Falco, and then either Ike), Shulk, or Ryu.

But on the topic of Ryu, how hard is he to figure out in reality? I mean, once you get used to the SF inputs (which isn't hard if you always used the C-stick for aerials anyway) and the light/medium/heavy attacks thing, what's left? Negative edge or whatever, and focus canceling I guess... It just feels like I'm missing something is all.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Ryu is complicated with his combos, neutral game and his punishes. He isn't a very easy character to pick up and be good with him. You have to commit to him and understand him perfectly.

 

[Nobie]

I'm not sure if Ryu and Falco make particularly good complements for each other, as I think that when it comes down to it they're very similar characters. However, if you mean that skills from one would transfer to the other, then they might make a good pair.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I keep hearing Ryu had light/medium/heavy attacks but I thought it was just light and heavy?

 

[Browny]

I still do not know why people still toss out the word vector.
Unless you mean the sonic character vector, please stop typing this word and find the computer room already.

Yay for other people who know what a vector is.

 

[A_Kae]

I keep hearing Ryu had light/medium/heavy attacks but I thought it was just light and heavy?

Tilts are light/heavy (although they're totally different moves, that doesn't really describe them well).

Specials all have three power levels, with both Hadokens moving faster, and Tatsumaki and Shoryuken going farther.

Edit: The specials do more damage as well, in case it wasn't clear.

 

[meleebrawler]

I keep hearing Ryu had light/medium/heavy attacks but I thought it was just light and heavy?

Maybe it's just hadouken. Or people using Street Fighter terminology to describe his down options (light dtilt, heavy dtilt and dsmash as crouching light kick, crouching medium kick and crouching heavy kick respectively.)

Thanks for the answers. So definitely Falco, and then either Ike), Shulk, or Ryu.

But on the topic of Ryu, how hard is he to figure out in reality? I mean, once you get used to the SF inputs (which isn't hard if you always used the C-stick for aerials anyway) and the light/medium/heavy attacks thing, what's left? Negative edge or whatever, and focus canceling I guess... It just feels like I'm missing something is all.

He has unique physics which can make aerials ridiculously unsafe if misused, for one thing. You also have keep track of a larger
number of moves and the things you can do with them than most characters. Ryu as a whole prefers to stay on the ground
since he has more options there as well as more flexibility with spacing. If your friend plays with Little Mac a lot then that's a good start since he teaches you how to approach without using aerials.

Of course, Ryu trades ground speed for longer pokes via hadouken as well as usable aerials. But his bad air friction limits
them so try to limit their use to when you're absolutely sure they'll land.

@ A_Kae I'm pretty sure the hadouken versions all do the same damage, the only difference is speed and distance.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Input Hadouken with A button holded actually makes 7 damage and it's the fastest. Normal Hadouken charged is 6 damage (I think). But almost every other hadouken it's the same.

 

[A_Kae]

@ A_Kae I'm pretty sure the hadouken versions all do the same damage, the only difference is speed and distance.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu

5/6.25, 5.5/6.875, and 6/7.5 for light, heavy and medium, respectively. Smash input on the left side of the slash, SF input on the right.

Anyways, we talk about a character being 'viable' here sometimes. What does 'viable' mean to all of you? It's good to define this stuff for discussion, and I've been wondering about our different definitions.

Total rip-off of the similar question about 'balance' a while ago.

Edit: too slow

Edit 2: I'm almost certain that the Hadouken's all go the same distance regardless of light, medium, or heavy. I think it's just speed and damage. I might be wrong though.

Edit 3: I do remember hearing that Shakunetsu Hadouken has a distance change, not sure if that's true.

 

[TriTails]

Reading the last pages regarding Ike's recovery, I find it funny that his recovery depends almost completely on preserving his double jump. Take that away and he is dead, unless you send him high up for some reason.

's recovery basically, except he is SO dead if his double jump is out of comission, Luigi at least has JC.

 

[san.]

Reading the last pages regarding Ike's recovery, I find it funny that his recovery depends almost completely on preserving his double jump. Take that away and he is dead, unless you send him high up for some reason.

's recovery basically, except he is SO dead if his double jump is out of comission, Luigi at least has JC.

His recovery doesn't really depend that much on preserving the double jump. It used to, but QD charges quick enough where it doesn't matter as much now.