Character Competitive Impressions

[Lavani]

what i want to know is WHY is all the KB with luma and all the damage with ? imo i would average out the KB and damage between them, so is more crippled when she loses luma(eg: usmash would do 16% when luma and hit, but solo only does 8%)

If you give Luma damage output, Rosalina can send it out by itself for effective damage racking without endangering herself, and now you have an even campier character. If you nerf her personal damage output...that just gives her even less reason to engage directly. The current number spread is a good and deliberate balance decision (won't rack significant damage with Luma, but can send it out at kill percents to cover options and secure kills; Rosa loses kill power and kill options with Luma removed) and I don't see a beneficial reason to change the ratios, both for her and her opponents.

Who cares about hypothetical balance changes when Vinnie just took ZeRo to a last stock last hit situation IN THE SHEIK DITTO?

Also, this?

Like, wow. Vinnie made ZeRo look mortal.

No other words, I'm just glad I stayed up for that.

 

[Shaya]

I think we'll be emigrating to a new thread soon.
Probably.

I feel like this is a pretty significant place and trying to repurpose/recreate things feels mighty dangerous. We're releasing "something" with absolutely no anticipation ...until now at a really awkward timing (evo hype) but eh, I hope we continue carrying on with business and expand with it.

The title still needs "Competitive Impressions" in it, at least.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Corrected

 

[A_Kae]

t is the opponent's damage, d is the attack damage.

You had an attack that does 150 damage hitting a opponent at 0.

About 180ish is enough to kill.

Edit: What you actually want is this:

((((((150+8)/10+(((150+8)*8)/20))*(200/(82+100))*1.4)+18)*(60/100))+120)=203.723076924

Luma's sweetspotted utilt hitting a falco at 150%.

With the 1.2x smash multiplier:

244.46769231

Rage is trickier to figure out for exact numbers. Assuming a direct 1.5x with the smash multiplier of 1.2x:

366.70153847

And with the opponent at 0 and no smash multiplier or rage because why not:

((((((0+8)/10+(((0+8)*8)/20))*(200/(82+100))*1.4)+18)*(60/100))+120)=134.492307692

Edit: Accidentally had 1.5 instead of 1.15 for rage multiplier. Actual value should be: 281.13784616

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Rage is trickier to figure out for exact numbers. Assuming a direct 1.5x with the smash multiplier of 1.2x ...

Is that actually how rage + charging a smash factor in? Just multiply it with both factors?

If that's the case then yeah, maximum rage + charging a smash will lead to a multiplier of 1.8 which equals +80% in knockback.

 

[Big O]

The rage multiplier is like 1.15x at most with max rage.

That aside, I look forward to any potential upsets happening over the next few days at EVO. Hopefully Smash 4 (and customs) gets seen in a positive light by the time GF's are over. Having people boo in the crowd during the top 8 at Apex was pretty disheartening and anti-hype.

 

[LimitCrown]

The rage multiplier's maximum value is approximately 1.15, not 1.5. Therefore, the actual amount knockback that is dealt by a character with the maximum amount of rage would be 0.7666... times as much as the results that used 1.5 for the maximum amount of that multiplier. 1.5 would be an incredibly large value for a knockback multiplier.

 

[meleebrawler]

Unique aerial mechanics? First I've heard of this.

I was talking about his poor air friction making aerial approaches inflexible. Basically he is completely incapable of weaving.

Still, there ARE interesting aspects to his aerials: nair can combo break and possibly start combos of his own, fair has a sourspot which can potentially combo better as well as causing more shield damage, dair is the probably the only "true" spike in the game (everything else is technically a meteor smash), the first hit of uair can lead to ground combos, and bair is almost as strong as Ganon's.

 

[A_Kae]

Yeah, I messed up there. I meant to have 1.15. 1.5 would be way too high.

Actual value for rage+smash multiplier should be: 281.13784616

Sorry about that.

Edit: Made a note of that in my previous post.

How much do we know about how rage works? I've been assuming a 15% increase at 150, 10% at 100, 5% at 50 and so on, but that's just an approximation, not an actual real formula.

 

[LimitCrown]

The rage multiplier begins to increase at around 30% and stops increasing at 150%. The multiplier seems to be directly proportional to the attacking character's percentage between those two percentages.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Heard several claims that rage goes up to 1.5x

Oh well

 

[Dogivet]

From top-tier to bottom tier just like that....

No reference to you, but this sounds like any 'puppet' character in any game. Impossible to find the middle ground.

@ Shaya
If you're going to recreate the thread some time after EVO, would the possibility of splitting Custom Impressions and Default Impression have any chance of happening?

(I don't mean to start any arguments between the two it's just that EVO seems to be the breaking point customs as a whole to a lot of people, as well as simplifying potential other arguments involving ie: 'well in customs...')

But hey, I just lurk here so like I matter...

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Anyone else see the crew battles? Because I need a gif of Ally surviving that Luigi Cyclone from below Smashville. That was unbelievable lol

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Speaking of customs, has anything noteworthy happened with them at EVO yet? Or expected to happen, for that matter, I'll be at work all day and can't watch any streams.

 

[Wintropy]

Sitting, as I am, on the "pro-customs" side of the fence, I'm anxious yet intrigued as to how EVO will change folks' opinions.

Or not. Maybe we as a community will decide customs don't work and things will remain as they traditionally have.

I think that, whatever happens, we as a community will figure it out and carry on. We've weathered tougher storms than this, and I'm just happy that this event is making it a talking point at this crucial time in our community's existence.

Best of luck to everyone taking part in EVO this year!

 

[webbedspace]

Anyone else see the crew battles? Because I need a gif of Ally surviving that Luigi Cyclone from below Smashville. That was unbelievable lol

ICYMI: http://www.twitch.tv/goukitv/v/7818316?t=1h46m05s

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

ICYMI: http://www.twitch.tv/goukitv/v/7818316?t=1h46m05s

Doing God's work brotha.

Edit: No sound tho?

 

[GeneralLedge]

It'd be neat if we had a secondary smash4 set of icons with a little wrench in the bottom corner to signify customs-on with that character.

Then we can forego saying 'this list is customs-on' and just use the little wrench version of the icon.

Moreover, and I swear I bring this up every time there's any sort of dip between whether or not customs should be separate or not, it would be useful to mesh customs-on and customs-off characters together in a single list. More fascinating than saying 'Custom Palutena is better than Custom Link' would be 'Custom Palutena is better than Vanilla Link' (as an example; I have no actual idea how these two match up! Isn't that odd?).

Of course, the biggest flaw with the whole thing is what the heck 'customs on' actually means, since customs pertains to about 80 (minus the 1111, technically) different additional play styles per character. Assuming the "best available customs" is... a useless assumption, since several characters have at least a few competitive sets.

So then I wonder "why not just put the B numbers on the icon itself instead of just a wrench", but that winds up meaning 4293 different icons, and I highly doubt anyone has the time to actually categorize 4293 characters into a tier list (let alone MAKE the icons).

So I suppose post-EVO, we'd foremost need to figure out what customs are actually relevant for comparison at all, which I assume is less than the 10-per-character we previously set up.

And if we have fewer than 10 relevant sets per character, it makes these icons more feasible, but the numerics kind of redundant, and/or cause for debate as to why we lack a 1121 Luigi icon.

And if you roll your eyes and shrug off the above thought process as too complex, then I really wonder how customs should be handled, from a conversation standpoint. Questioning the MU between 1121 Link and 1131 Link is redundant, yet required. There is a MU there, and it's different than just two 1111 Links, and so it's cause for discussion. It'd be objective which is better, or if it matters at all, but it's still a discussion that could be had. One that would be really confusing if you have no idea what the actual difference is (I don't even know without reference, actually. One flies straight up on the last slash, and one is electric? Or is that Toon Link?).

I wonder if discussion about customs is really only considered cause for a split group because it's difficult to explain a move without the character utilizing it, and that the synergy between moves is what you're actually playing, and not just "Link can spin so fast he generates electricity, and that hurts!".

Which back-pedals me to question if we should settle on specifically legal sets post-EVO, or if that's too limiting for the experimental crowd. It makes me question, once again, if sets should be given proper names (ie. "Pichu" on one particular Pikachu set), to better differentiate them for discussion. It makes me wonder if we should change the way customs are pieced together in both synergy and variety than simply giving a character their best moves and calling it a day.


...My train of thought just smashed through eight brick walls, didn't it?

 

[blackghost]

It'd be neat if we had a secondary smash4 set of icons with a little wrench in the bottom corner to signify customs-on with that character.

Then we can forego saying 'this list is customs-on' and just use the little wrench version of the icon.

Moreover, and I swear I bring this up every time there's any sort of dip between whether or not customs should be separate or not, it would be useful to mesh customs-on and customs-off characters together in a single list. More fascinating than saying 'Custom Palutena is better than Custom Link' would be 'Custom Palutena is better than Vanilla Link' (as an example; I have no actual idea how these two match up! Isn't that odd?).

Of course, the biggest flaw with the whole thing is what the heck 'customs on' actually means, since customs pertains to about 80 (minus the 1111, technically) different additional play styles per character. Assuming the "best available customs" is... a useless assumption, since several characters have at least a few competitive sets.

So then I wonder "why not just put the B numbers on the icon itself instead of just a wrench", but that winds up meaning 4293 different icons, and I highly doubt anyone has the time to actually categorize 4293 characters into a tier list (let alone MAKE the icons).

So I suppose post-EVO, we'd foremost need to figure out what customs are actually relevant for comparison at all, which I assume is less than the 10-per-character we previously set up.

And if we have fewer than 10 relevant sets per character, it makes these icons more feasible, but the numerics kind of redundant, and/or cause for debate as to why we lack a 1121 Luigi icon.

And if you roll your eyes and shrug off the above thought process as too complex, then I really wonder how customs should be handled, from a conversation standpoint. Questioning the MU between 1121 Link and 1131 Link is redundant, yet required. There is a MU there, and it's different than just two 1111 Links, and so it's cause for discussion. It'd be objective which is better, or if it matters at all, but it's still a discussion that could be had. One that would be really confusing if you have no idea what the actual difference is (I don't even know without reference, actually. One flies straight up on the last slash, and one is electric? Or is that Toon Link?).

I wonder if discussion about customs is really only considered cause for a split group because it's difficult to explain a move without the character utilizing it, and that the synergy between moves is what you're actually playing, and not just "Link can spin so fast he generates electricity, and that hurts!".

Which back-pedals me to question if we should settle on specifically legal sets post-EVO, or if that's too limiting for the experimental crowd. It makes me question, once again, if sets should be given proper names (ie. "Pichu" on one particular Pikachu set), to better differentiate them for discussion. It makes me wonder if we should change the way customs are pieced together in both synergy and variety than simply giving a character their best moves and calling it a day.


...My train of thought just smashed through eight brick walls, didn't it?

The interesting thing m,ost custom moves dont require too much of a change they are simply a players preference. Watching the crack the custom series most of the moves are preference based or a set up for a particular situation so in a matchup a lot of it would be skipped for example (i'll use your link example) link wit the traidtional bomerang vs link without it essentially is stil a mirror match the only variable is the gale boomerang setups (which i dont see a lot of link players use). This dynamic is my favoritye element of custom moves the player wiht more game knowledge is rewarded. palutena and the miis could have formal names like you said. I think dapuffster already is mii brawler 1122 at this point.

 

[Dogivet]

It'd be neat if we had a secondary smash4 set of icons with a little wrench in the bottom corner to signify customs-on with that character.

I like this idea, especially with what you said afterwards,

... it would be useful to mesh customs-on and customs-off characters together in a single list. More fascinating than saying 'Custom Palutena is better than Custom Link' would be 'Custom Palutena is better than Vanilla Link'.

This would be a 110-man tier list essentially, that still only really relates to Custom meta, since there are still many that use default in the custom meta.
I feel that it may have been done somewhere and just haven't looked for it yet (or might be outdated since it may be a lot of work, I don't know I don't make tiers, I just laugh at them). Still would be interesting to see in full.

Questioning the MU between 1121 Link and 1131 Link is redundant, yet required. There is a MU there, and it's different than just two 1111 Links, and so it's cause for discussion. It'd be objective which is better, or if it matters at all, but it's still a discussion that could be had.

This is where some people who played this game in it's early days will probably try and punch me but...
The problem does come down to the limit of the Wii U only saving a finite number of sets and while I understand that some people prefer slight difference from set to set, even just a singular move, it may not be on there.
I always figured that Customs would be perfect on the 3DS since there's no limit to the amount of customs that can be created (to the extent of that persons game, but it is more additional personal options than a shared Wii U) but then comes down to a question of standardization, since customs may, but unlikely, turn into a game of Pokemon (on a casual level) or something similar, as in you know the character he is using, but not the customs, so round 1 turns into a game of seeing what customs they are using with the following games to change customs accordingly to counter with one of your builds.

 

[Pazx]

It'd be neat if we had a secondary smash4 set of icons with a little wrench in the bottom corner to signify customs-on with that character.

Then we can forego saying 'this list is customs-on' and just use the little wrench version of the icon.

Moreover, and I swear I bring this up every time there's any sort of dip between whether or not customs should be separate or not, it would be useful to mesh customs-on and customs-off characters together in a single list. More fascinating than saying 'Custom Palutena is better than Custom Link' would be 'Custom Palutena is better than Vanilla Link' (as an example; I have no actual idea how these two match up! Isn't that odd?).

Of course, the biggest flaw with the whole thing is what the heck 'customs on' actually means, since customs pertains to about 80 (minus the 1111, technically) different additional play styles per character. Assuming the "best available customs" is... a useless assumption, since several characters have at least a few competitive sets.

So then I wonder "why not just put the B numbers on the icon itself instead of just a wrench", but that winds up meaning 4293 different icons, and I highly doubt anyone has the time to actually categorize 4293 characters into a tier list (let alone MAKE the icons).

So I suppose post-EVO, we'd foremost need to figure out what customs are actually relevant for comparison at all, which I assume is less than the 10-per-character we previously set up.

And if we have fewer than 10 relevant sets per character, it makes these icons more feasible, but the numerics kind of redundant, and/or cause for debate as to why we lack a 1121 Luigi icon.

And if you roll your eyes and shrug off the above thought process as too complex, then I really wonder how customs should be handled, from a conversation standpoint. Questioning the MU between 1121 Link and 1131 Link is redundant, yet required. There is a MU there, and it's different than just two 1111 Links, and so it's cause for discussion. It'd be objective which is better, or if it matters at all, but it's still a discussion that could be had. One that would be really confusing if you have no idea what the actual difference is (I don't even know without reference, actually. One flies straight up on the last slash, and one is electric? Or is that Toon Link?).

I wonder if discussion about customs is really only considered cause for a split group because it's difficult to explain a move without the character utilizing it, and that the synergy between moves is what you're actually playing, and not just "Link can spin so fast he generates electricity, and that hurts!".

Which back-pedals me to question if we should settle on specifically legal sets post-EVO, or if that's too limiting for the experimental crowd. It makes me question, once again, if sets should be given proper names (ie. "Pichu" on one particular Pikachu set), to better differentiate them for discussion. It makes me wonder if we should change the way customs are pieced together in both synergy and variety than simply giving a character their best moves and calling it a day.


...My train of thought just smashed through eight brick walls, didn't it?

This is a slight tangent from what you were talking about but bear with me.

In regards to tier lists, we will have no more than two "current" tier lists. One will be customs, one will be non-customs. We don't need to know how 1121 Diddy compares to the rest of the cast (suddenly a lot better, actually, but still worse than any-custom Diddy), nor do we need to know how the "optimal" set for any character compares to the rest of the cast. The customs-on tier list will represent a characters viability when all possible movesets are available to them. If we have a customs tier list that has Sheik first, Pikachu second and Rosalina third we aren't saying "optimal-set Sheik is better than optimal-set Rosalina" (although that statement would highly likely be true in this hypothetical) but rather a Sheik that has access to any set of custom moves she wants depending on the matchup is better than a Rosalina with the same option in regards to her custom moves. The Sheik may use regular needles against Pikachu and penetrating needles against Rosalina but these are not two separate characters. That's a good thing, by the way, because if we treated each custom set as a different character my 3 character tier list would suddenly look something similar to Sheik, Sheik, Sheik, Sheik, Pikachu, Pikachu, Sheik, Rosalina, Rosalina, Rosalina, Sheik, Rosalina, Sheik, Rosalina, Sheik...

In regards to your Palutena vs Link question, you have to be more specific about what you're asking. Which is better? How do we define who is better?
Are you comparing (relative to the rest of the cast) how well Link does in the default meta to how well Palutena does in the custom meta? If this is the case, you can compare Link's position in a non-custom tier list to that of Palutena's in a customs tier list.
Are you asking how good a Link with no custom moves would be in the custom meta? Somewhat lower than where Link would be with customs.
Are you asking how the matchup between 1111 Link and XXXX Palutena is? Somewhat worse than the matchup between XXXX Link and XXXX Palutena. I'd love to be more insightful but I don't know as much about Link as I used to and I really don't think these are questions worth asking.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Are you asking how good a Link with no custom moves would be in the custom meta? Somewhat lower than where Link would be with customs.

This is more what I'm wondering, yes. Comparing Palu to Link is more of a visual representation.

However, the question isn't whether customs Link is better than vanilla Link, it's where customs Link and vanilla Link both place on the same tier list. "Somewhat lower than" isn't that tangible an answer, since another part of the question is who actually fits between them? How many custom characters are better than vanilla Link? How many vanilla characters are better than custom Link?

How many slots higher than vanilla Link is custom Palutena, if there were a singular list covering everything?

That's a good thing, by the way, because if we treated each custom set as a different character my 3 character tier list would suddenly look something similar to Sheik, Sheik, Sheik, Sheik, Pikachu, Pikachu, Sheik, Rosalina, Rosalina, Rosalina, Sheik, Rosalina, Sheik, Rosalina, Sheik...

EDIT: I had a big paragraph already here but shot myself in the foot with a tangent and confusing the tagent with a second tangent, so I've rewritten it.

Best way to avoid a redundant tier list like that is to better compress the available custom characters, for brevity. If four Sheiks all share the top place above Pikachu, does there really need to be four of them? Does all four custom sets supply such broad variety that a player would become severely upset that they can't play as a specific setup?

My overarching conclusion, in regards to my previous 'named sets' helper, is to compress a lot of the existing EVO customs for brevity, variety and synergy.

There's very little tangible purpose in having, in Smash 4's unfortunately limited options, ten redundant sets when they could be covered by two or three summarized versions. Having so many sets just to fill the slots is confusing for players who have no idea which is which, useless for players who need to scroll through all of them, and pointless when more than half of them will never actually be used.

Using Pit's lovely EVO custom spread as an example (2111, 3111, 1112, 2112, 3112, 1113, 2113, 3113), is there really eight different styles of play between them? Doesn't everyone hate Dark Pit's crappy arrow? Why would they use it on Pit instead? Is there really such a severe difference between the two available barriers that the Pit subforum drew a line in the sand whether you're for or against one of them?

All of Pit's customs as-is could probably be compressed into just two or three, instead of eight. As for which, that's up to which works best from a perspective of synergy with the rest of Pit's moveset. That is a better manner of customs discussion than just, "We need 8-to-10 custom sets, pronto!"

And by compressing customs into a smaller number of sets, we make more specific tier lists more possible, and give the customs-inconclusive crowd a better ground to jump on if they feel like giving it a shot.

Moreover, by focusing on the synergy and brevity itself, we make room for more experimental sets that are presently off of EVO's roster and potentially unexplored. Nobody uses Luigi's fiery jump punch since the knockback is piss-poor, and nobody uses clothesline tornado because it's slow and unwieldy. But what if the two synergized well together, and clothesline setup into a scenario where fiery jump's improved range let it land consistently (or vice versa with Fiery Jump's poor knockback)? Probably not in this example, but we don't know how many sets have been overlooked wherein a subtle synergy might exist.

Everyone's so engrossed in the strongest moves, that from an outside perspective the game becomes boring. It becomes about the strongest moves themselves, and not about how the weaker ones could set up more impressive combos and kill confirms. And that's... not really 'customs' so much as it is 'artificially buffing'.

Is there a difference or reason to use a broad variety of custom Donkey Kongs when, ultimately, the central move is Kong Cyclone? Would these other moves work better in a set excluding Kong Cyclone, instead? I wish I knew that, instead of just 'customs DK is high tier'.

 

[Djent]

Sitting, as I am, on the "pro-customs" side of the fence, I'm anxious yet intrigued as to how EVO will change folks' opinions.

If ZeRo wins: "ZeRo says customs are bad and he knows so much about the game we should all listen to him!"
If ESAM wins: "OMG customs are so broken, we need to ban them for a healthy metagame!"
If Rain wins: "OMG Japan just beat us and they play w/o customs, customs make you fraudulent + we need them to come back!"

Those are the three favorites IMO, so...yeah.

 

[GeneralLedge]

If ZeRo wins: "ZeRo says customs are bad and he knows so much about the game we should all listen to him!"
If ESAM wins: "OMG customs are so broken, we need to ban them for a healthy metagame!"
If Rain wins: "OMG Japan just beat us and they play w/o customs, customs make you fraudulent + we need them to come back!"

Those are the three favorites IMO, so...yeah.

Mine come down to,

"OMG ZeRo Won EVO! Ban customs!"

and

"OMG ZeRo Lost EVO! Ban customs!"

Of course these are limited exclusively to Reddit, whose motto for shaping the meta is complaining about it until the adults give the baby its bottle. It's lose/lose regardless!

 

[Radical Larry]

What we really should look out for in this Tournament:

ZeRo's possible loss.
Link, Ganondorf, Palutena, Mewtwo and Meta Knight players.
Link players (Link gets no love)

I'd be kind of pissed if ZeRo actually won EVO, but at the same time, it'll be one more proof we need to see that Sheik will get nerfed in the future, when there are any future patches. But I'll be surprised if someone literally comes out of nowhere and completely walls out all the Top players.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What we really should look out for in this Tournament:

ZeRo's possible loss.
Link, Ganondorf, Palutena, Mewtwo and Meta Knight players.
Link players (Link gets no love)

I'd be kind of pissed if ZeRo actually won EVO, but at the same time, it'll be one more proof we need to see that Sheik will get nerfed in the future, when there are any future patches. But I'll be surprised if someone literally comes out of nowhere and completely walls out all the Top players.

I could care less about Sheik nerfs. I just want someone else to win tbh. ZeRo puts in the work for this game but it'd be nice to see someone else come out on top.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I'm currently trying to get better with Mario. Since I'm going to need him for other match-ups that my Sonic struggles. I mean I have Sheik. But then she could get nerfed and then I wouldn't have any choice.

By the way, what do you think of vs ? I have been having trouble with Palutena. Since her Jab stops my Spin Dash approaches or it's really hard for me to get close to her. Her Jab is really really ridiculous.

 

[Smog Frog]

stop spamming spindash. that goes for every . you have the fastest run speed, an above average skid animation, and good options out of a pivot(ftilt, grab, fsmash). almost every bad i see is because they are overreliant on spindash. if you just broaden your game to using his great running options, you'll see great improvements as a main.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Yup. I know. But every single approach I make it's just stopped by her Jab. I'm serious when I say I don't spam Spin Dash. I don't like to be a For Glory Sonic or just a straight up bad Sonic. But my friend uses her pretty good and teleports with her. It's really hard to catch him up even with Sonic's Speed with a good attack.

 

[Wintropy]

stop spamming spindash. that goes for every . you have the fastest run speed, an above average skid animation, and good options out of a pivot(ftilt, grab, fsmash). almost every bad i see is because they are overreliant on spindash. if you just broaden your game to using his great running options, you'll see great improvements as a main.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

@ hypersonicJD , if Palutena's getting mileage out of jab as a shut-down option on your spin, it's because you spin too much. Palutena struggles against fast characters, she doesn't have much options to wall them out except to go for the jab -> grab and throw in a dash attack or f-air / b-air. As a Sonic main, you have no reason to feel intimidated by Palutena. You can dominate the pace of the match and make her go on the defensive if you just try other things.

As Smog says, make better use of your pivot options. If you're going for a grounded approach every time, it doesn't matter who you're playing: you will be read and you will be punished.

This is presuming you're referring to Default!Palutena. Custom!Palutena is more than equipped to deal with rushies.

EDIT: Hold on, new response to dissect~

Yup. I know. But every single approach I make it's just stopped by her Jab. I'm serious when I say I don't spam Spin Dash. I don't like to be a For Glory Sonic or just a straight up bad Sonic. But my friend uses her pretty good and teleports with her. It's really hard to catch him up even with Sonic's Speed with a good attack.

Warp? Gonna need you to elaborate on that, unless he's warp-canceling like the providence of the gods themselves, you should be able to punish that.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I'm referring to Vanilla Palutena. (No customs. I do like the Vanilla term. Reminds me of ice cream XD). I do use Pivot Forward Smash though. And also Pivot Forward TIlt. But since my friend knows me soo well and we have battled for a while. Maybe that's why I have been in trouble. It's really hard for me to do a Pivot Grab in 3DS though. The timing it's weird and when I try it, instead I get a Forward Tilt.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm referring to Vanilla Palutena. (No customs. I do like the Vanilla term. Reminds me of ice cream XD). I do use Pivot Forward Smash though. And also Pivot Forward TIlt.

But since my friend knows me soo well and we have battled for a while.

Maybe that's why I have been in trouble. It's really hard for me to do a Pivot Grab in 3DS though. The timing it's weird and when I try it, instead I get a Forward Tilt.

There's your issue, then. You're predictable. They know your tricks. Sounds like he's just taking you for a ride at this stage.

Do you grab? At all? Seriously, grab more. Sonic has the fastest default dash speed in the game, you should make him dread touching the stage for fear of a pivot grab.

Get Palutena into the air and you have free followups right there. She has very little to respond to Sonic's aerials and her get-back-to-solid-earth options are terminally limited.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Alright then. I'll try to grab more. Thanks for the advice =3. And sorry for interrupting the EVO hype. I really wanted more Sonic advice.

Where do you think 6WX is going to end up? Not predictions. Just opinions.

 

[C0rvus]

I hope Raziek goes far, he always speaks so highly of Robin, and I would love for him to show the world (and Robin players in general) what he knows. All this talk of Robin being bottom 5 is disheartening, but I am starting to see the positive things that the Robin boards are saying about him.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I hope Raziek goes far, he always speaks so highly of Robin, and I would love for him to show the world (and Robin players in general) what he knows. All this talk of Robin being bottom 5 is disheartening, but I am starting to see the positive things that the Robin boards are saying about him.

I think Robin has a lot of good tools, but his numbers are undertuned. Thoron killing later than Arcthunder, bad movement speed, bootycheeks grabs/throws...

 

[C0rvus]

Oh I agree completely. I would live for Robin to be tuned up a bit, I dropped him for ages because I felt he wasn't good enough to compete. At this point there is arguing that he is in the bottom half of the cast imo, but his MU spread is mostly very doable.

Customs help a lot against rushdown characters and a secondary is almost 100% necessary, but Robin's kit is very solid. Levin aerials are awesome. Projectiles are a bit laggy but grant followups. His command grab has significant healing. In terms of being a zoner, he is very well equipped. Unfortunately, the lack of grab game is a huge slight in this engine.

 

[Thinkaman]

I went mostly Mac, also a few games Ness and a Ganon ditto.

Before I fall asleep for a lab, did lab one thing:

Mac can up-b out of G&W low percent combos.

Really wish I had thought of that earlier! Zero match exp...

 

[Kofu]

I went mostly Mac, also a few games Ness and a Ganon ditto.

Before I fall asleep for a lab, did lab one thing:

Mac can up-b out of G&W low percent combos.

Really wish I had thought of that earlier! Zero match exp...

Mac/Game & Watch is probably mostly even, leaning towards Mac's favor because of his dominant ground game. But Game & Watch can do dirty, dirty things to Mac's recovery (especially with DTilt). Did GimR use any customs?

Matches didn't happen to be recorded did they?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I'm currently trying to get better with Mario. Since I'm going to need him for other match-ups that my Sonic struggles. I mean I have Sheik. But then she could get nerfed and then I wouldn't have any choice.

By the way, what do you think of vs ? I have been having trouble with Palutena. Since her Jab stops my Spin Dash approaches or it's really hard for me to get close to her. Her Jab is really really ridiculous.

Her jab is among the worst in the game in terms of risk but has decent reward. It's a lot of things but it's far from ridiculous.
And why do so many people avoid characters out of fear of nerfs? That shouldn't really stop you unless the nerfs are really over the top a la Diddy

 

[GeneralLedge]

This doesn't even make sense. I haven't been able to follow any streams today, but it sounds like there haven't been any instances yet of customs bull****. Why then would they be gone after EVO? (Assuming this trend is true and continues.)

Ignorance breeds ignorance: Nobody cares about the actual ebb and flow of customs in EVO itself.

Group 1 constantly says, "We'll wait until EVO to see" about a lot of things, pro- and anti- customs. What they intend to mean is, EVO is where we'll see the results of practice after about six months of trial and error, and if Customs are actually 'fun' to both watch and play.

Group 2 sees the phrase "until EVO", and assumes some sort of massive tide-changer to the meta after the tournament, as soon as it ends. They see hotshots like ZeRo shoot down customs, and they see Redditors flock to ZeRo's omnipresent wisdom. They assume, whether experienced or not, that 'Customs' is and always was somehow a bad thing, and only the result of EVO can save the world from the terror that is ruining all things good in this world. They seek excuses, and cite them as fact.

What a glorious fantasy. I hope the good guys win!