Character Competitive Impressions

[RonNewcomb]

What does this mean? That wiifit is harder to play or is more viable?

Harder to pick-up-and-play. But I just can't see a character with good speed, good KO power, great projectile, great airdodge, decent recovery and average disadvantage being un-viable.

 

[Thinkaman]

how the hell do you play 13 characters and expect to actually be good at any of them
you're spreading yourself thin over an arbitrarily large cast of mains

You're telling me!

 

[NachoOfCheese]

*people post stories about why they main who they main in this thread*
Shaya: Stahp.
*people continue to post stories about why they main who they main*

 

[Browny]

I main Sonic because I hate smash and I want everyone I play to hate smash too.

 

[DblCrest]

Really Smash Bros 64 was how I got introduced to how awesome Kirby and Pikachu were XD. Then I've been sticking with those two through most of the games. Also the Kirby games got me hooked on the character. So that can I safely say he is my favourite video game character of all time.

But I enjoy learning just about every character so I can use the characters on the fly. I'm never really hindered by random select because I atleast can adapt to using a different character every now and then.

Also personally if I just stick to one character and the same stage I feel games will stagnate for me. Hence why I like to change things up. Still this also means I'm bit of a jack of all trades and master of none. :x

But anyway...which character seems to never get touched after patches? Plus how are they doing ?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I play Ryu because he was the first fighting game character I ever played. He taught me how to play fighting games. What zoning is. How to control the pace of a match. First special move I ever did was a hadouken. For alot of you youngins in here, that don't really know who Ryu is, he IS the face of fighting games. The nostalgia runs deep with him.

I play Marth because I love footsies and in Melee I felt he was the only "pure" fighting game character. I could take what I knew in other fighters and it applied to him so perfectly. He could do things many other characters couldnt do thanks to his range and frame data. Marth as a character forces you to really play the game. Yes he is oppressive vs characters he beats but generally nothing is free or janky. He can't simply spam. He has to know when to hit buttons. When to block. When to run. When to advance and when to fall back. He plays the actual "game".

 

[A_Kae]

I play Ryu because he was the first fighting game character I ever played. He taught me how to play fighting games. What zoning is. How to control the pace of a match. First special move I ever did was a hadouken. For alot of you youngins in here, that don't really know who Ryu is, he IS the face of fighting games. The nostalgia runs deep with him.

I play Marth because I love footsies and in Melee I felt he was the only "pure" fighting game character. I could take what I knew in other fighters and it applied to him so perfectly. He could do things many other characters couldnt do thanks to his range and frame data. Marth as a character forces you to really play the game. Yes he is oppressive vs characters he beats but generally nothing is free or janky. He can't simply spam. He has to know when to hit buttons. When to block. When to run. When to advance and when to fall back. He plays the actual "game".

You just totally summed up why I like Marth. I had been trying to think of how to put for a while now, and that's exactly it.

I don't have the connection to Ryu that you do, never really played much street fighter, but I do know who and what he is, and that's a big part of why I like him. Also just really like how he plays.

 

[Ffamran]

All righty, how about this discussion? A heavyweights-only discussion - participate if you want. So, Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, and maybe Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, and Wario. How do these guys deal with each other? Who wrecks who and who doesn't do well against who.

 

[David Viran]

Harder to pick-up-and-play. But I just can't see a character with good speed, good KO power, great projectile, great airdodge, decent recovery and average disadvantage being un-viable.

Ok. Your wording makes me think you imply that zss I easy to pick up and play. Which she's not. Actually why are you comparing zss to Wii fit? I don't see how they have similar play-styles

 

[A_Kae]

All righty, how about this discussion? A heavyweights-only discussion - participate if you want. So, Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, and maybe Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, and Wario. How do these guys deal with each other? Who wrecks who and who doesn't do well against who.

Link, Ike, and Wario are the standouts here. They're all a good bit better than the others, especially with how Link and Ike got buffed.

Link is probably going to wreck all of them except Wario, and that's mainly due to Link's strong projectile game, and the other's low speed and mobility. Maybe Ike as well, but I don't feel that he's quite mobile enough here.

Wario's got the mobility IMO to dance around everyone else and beat them up.

Ike hits hard and he's not too slow. Add his great disjoint to that, and you've got a quite good character.

As for the rest, they've got their moments, but I just think they (ganondorf in particular) rely too much on mistakes and don't have the mobility to be major threats at a high level.

Those are just my quick thoughts on the matter, and I'm sure people who actually main those characters will tell me how terribly wrong I am here.

Edit: I totally forgot Bowser Jr when I said this. I have no opinion on him

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

All righty, how about this discussion? A heavyweights-only discussion - participate if you want. So, Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, and maybe Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, and Wario. How do these guys deal with each other? Who wrecks who and who doesn't do well against who.

Bowser jr da best heavy then wario.

 

[Dabuz]

BJ is in the realm of Viable at a high level but barely/ will most likely end up dropping over time. Wario is by far the best heavy weight and if Sheik gets nerfed I won't be surprised if Wario is a really popular character. (Does surprisingly well against most of the cast including top tiers) Ike is kind of alright, better than BJ but nothing special either. Everyone else isn't relevant in competitive play overall.

 

[DblCrest]

Ignore. Internet being a butt

 

[A_Kae]

Really Smash Bros 64 was how I got introduced to how awesome Kirby and Pikachu were XD. Then I've been sticking with those two through most of the games. Also the Kirby games got me hooked on the character. So that can I safely say he is my favourite video game character of all time.

But I enjoy learning just about every character so I can use the characters on the fly. I'm never really hindered by random select because I atleast can adapt to using a different character every now and then.

Also personally if I just stick to one character and the same stage I feel games will stagnate for me. Hence why I like to change things up. Still this also means I'm bit of a jack of all trades and master of none. :x

But anyway...which character seems to never get touched after patches? Plus how are they doing ?

You have this exact post earlier on this page. You didn't need to (and shouldn't have) post it again. Edit: Seems like it was a mistake, sorry.

ZSS, Luigi, Pit, Fox, Pikachu, Ness, Dark Pit, Shulk, Mega Man, and Mii Gunner weren't touched in either 1.0.6 or 1.0.8, according to the patch dumps, which don't have animation end data, so they could be wrong.

 

[FullMoon]

Didn't Luigi get a nerf to his fireball's damage in 1.0.6?

Also Ness's PSI Magnet got buffed in 1.0.8

 

[A_Kae]

Didn't Luigi get a nerf to his fireball's damage in 1.0.6?

Also Ness's PSI Magnet got buffed in 1.0.8

All the characters I listed there don't have any changes listed in the patch dumps.

They don't have data like ending lag or landing lag, so they definitely could be wrong, but if there are any characters who weren't changed in those patches, it's in that group.

Damage would be shown if it was changed.

Edit: Patch notes show fireball damage as 6 > 5, so it should be there. But it isn't.

Edit 2: After going through the patch notes thread, I can reduce that list to: ZSS, Fox, Shulk, Mega Man. Only characters that haven't been changed in some way that we know of in 1.0.6 or 1.0.8

 

[NachoOfCheese]

All righty, how about this discussion? A heavyweights-only discussion - participate if you want. So, Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, and maybe Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, and Wario. How do these guys deal with each other? Who wrecks who and who doesn't do well against who.

Wario is so weird, but like, in the best possible way. He's short, heavy, and floaty for his weight, which is a plus. He has amazing frame data and damage output, as well as great combo potential. Not to mention reliable kill power and a kill throw in his Fthrow. His recovery is one of the best in the game and he has the undisputed best command grab in the game. His edgeguarding game is unmatched when he has the waft. (Bike drop off the ledge -> Waft has netted me many KOs on a plethora if characters). And we can't forget his bike, which can do up to 26% when thrown. @TheReflexWonder has also shown off some other cool bike tricks on his channel. Also, his dash attack is one of if not the best in the game. IMO he's the best of the characters you mentioned.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario's damage output is anything but amazing, and his DA is great but definitely isn't the best. (Fox's is just as fast and he gets more rewards off them)

 

[Ffamran]

Didn't Luigi get a nerf to his fireball's damage in 1.0.6?

Something about at max range, so before it goes POOF, it'll do 5% instead of 6%. This also pretty much makes the game lie to you: "Luigi's green fireballs don't travel as far as his brother's, but they don't lose power the farther they move away from Luigi."

Zelda's Phantom Slash takes like 10 seconds to respawn now, right? Once more, game lies to us: "If the Phantom takes 13% damage or more, he'll be destroyed. After that, you'll have to wait six seconds before summoning him again."

Thanks, developers. Thanks for not changing simple text with patches. Source: http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U).

 

[Teshie U]

Wario has mobility and thats the most important thing. He isn't a powerhouse in all areas like the other heavies but he can consistently get close enough to mix in the strong stuff like Fsmash and Waft.

If we are talking about just the heavies against each other, Charizard I think has the next best spread I think just because I feel like he could handle everyone well enough and Link would probably never catch Wario.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Ness's PSI Magnet has less endlag in the latest patch.

I think Charizard is a pretty legit long term character. He has a good jab, and he has a ridiculously good grab game (probably the best actual grab in the game, low% combo dthrow, very efficient killing uthrow especially if you always ban FD which you obviously will). Flamethrower solves most additional footsies puzzles for him, Rock Smash/Rock Hurl is a powerful armored option to further get him out of trouble, he's heavy with a good recovery, Dragon Rush is solid burst movement, dtilt outranges most sword normals as a fast poke, god-like speed/priority on utilt and usmash... I'm quite convinced Charizard is high tier; his well of options is just plain deeper than those of the other heavies.

I don't know how we can discuss Ike and not Shulk; I see the two as a pair. I think both are so slow that some MUs are kinda too bad, but having that much disjointed range and power at the same time gives them huge upside. I think both are long term relevant in the meta as secondaries but both are probably ill-suited to be mains. Overall both are probably mid-ish. Between the two, Ike is more well rounded while Shulk is basically pure shenanigans. I prefer Shulk since if I'm using a character as a cp character anyway I want maximum shenanigans, but if you want more solid and reliable back-up, Ike is your man and I think a meaningful option.

I think DK and Bowser are "okay". DK has the whole last airbender thing going on but is otherwise pretty mediocre while Bowser is a lot more well rounded but to me largely amounts to a stronger but all around more limited version of Charizard which is to say "playable but risky to pick". I don't think either have a huge long term potential, but I don't think either is bad enough to totally drop off the map either.

Wario is most likely a good character, but I feel he needs a little more time to develop. I also don't think he's a "real heavy"; he doesn't really belong in this conversation. Link likewise is "okay" but just doesn't belong in this conversation.

Jr. I think is solid but people don't get him yet. Default Jr. would probably fall out of use eventually, but 1313 Jr. is really, really good. So side-3 is really slow to start up, but it has massive armor. If it hits, you ground the opponent which true combos into both hits (car and hammer) of default up special for insane damage and early kills. Here's the big trick: Jr. has a momentum trick with side-3. I don't know the exact execution of it and wasn't able to repeat it myself, but Mr. Doom (Wichita's best player) was showing it off last month in a small local tournament I was at and it was kinda nuts. Jr. facing away from the opponent slides backward a large distance with armor and can cross through the opponent (even against a shield). If Jr. spaces this right, he uses the armor to advance and cross up which lets him hit with the very earliest hit of side-3, lets him advance under the protection of super armor, and leaves the most vulnerable part of the whole endeavor happening behind the opponent. Even if you don't hit, you can just jump cancel and keep up pressure. It's really strong, and I feel with time, it will define Jr.'s meta. Giant mechas are also basically the new Snake grenades; defaults have some merits but giants are all around more solid and can easily be "cooked" to deal with Rosa (and to some extent Villager) way better than defaults.

Ganon is really interesting and hard to pin down. I think most people just look at his downside (which is massive) and miss the upside. If you are landing hits with Ganon (which with his range is far from impossible), you're probably winning the match. He absolutely needs customs obviously since he's kinda a joke with how free he is off stage without Wizard's Dropkick, but if he can stretch his own stocks and take the other side's "way too early", he can represent some high value. I expect sooner or later for some Ganon to start doing really well, to still sometimes lose in ugly ways to the absolute top players, but to make people be "surprised" by how good Ganon is as though it wasn't possible to predict that this character has explosive potential. I don't know how this will play out in tiers.

DDD is really bad; he's just too unsafe to be viable, and despite being the least safe he's also the least mobile overall (Ganon at least has burst movement options; DDD has none of that). He is likely bottom 5 with the recent batch of buffs to other low tiers.

 

[Sir Tundra]

All righty, how about this discussion? A heavyweights-only discussion - participate if you want. So, Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, and maybe Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, and Wario. How do these guys deal with each other? Who wrecks who and who doesn't do well against who.

This serves an interesting discussion.

Ike is an excellent spacer thanks to the new patch

Link now has a combo game, a huge grab range, and a good zoning game

Wario has the best command grab in the game, his bike is soo good, and that fart son

Bowser jr is both Heavy and mobile, his zoning games great, has one of the best rapid jabs in the game, and has surprisingly good shield pressure

Charizard got a huge buff. He now has a good grab game now having combos off of throws and has a kill throw with his up throw.

as for the others..

Bowser is fast and hits hard however he has no combo game, no kill setups, and is very easy to combo

Dk has a huge combos and is probably the character who's most vulnerable to combos.

I don't know much about D3 and Ganondorf since I don't see them much

If I were to rate the best to worst heavy minus ganondorf and D3 it would be

>>>> >>

Take note that this is just my opinion

If their are ganondorfs and d3 mains who would like to give some information about their mains and how they stack up to the rest of these heavy weights then that would be nice.

Edit: Oh and if were including customs then:

>>>>>>

Because Dongnado is just ridiculous

 

[TriTails]

You guys consider Link a heavy but not Falcon? Don't they share the same weight?

 

[A_Kae]

You guys consider Link a heavy but not Falcon? Don't they share the same weight?

Yep, in every smash game, in fact.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight

Probably defining 'heavy' something like that list does would be good. Maybe without Lucario. He's not quite heavy enough.

I'd define 'heavy' as 100 weight or greater.

 

[Ffamran]

You guys consider Link a heavy but not Falcon? Don't they share the same weight?

Yeah... What is defined as heavy? Technically, Samus, Ryu, and Shulk could count too since they're, well, heavy. Heavies are probably slower moving, slower attacking, and large hurtbox characters. Well, Ike fits the slower attacking part, but his air speed is good, run speed is fairly decent, and his hurtbox isn't really large. No Arts Shulk fits the slower attacking part, but everything else is average. Link fits the slower attacking, slower moving, but not the large hurtbox part...

Maybe I should have limited heavies to Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, and Ganondorf. Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, Samus, Shulk, and Wario could count as the cruiserweights?

 

[Sir Tundra]

You guys consider Link a heavy but not Falcon? Don't they share the same weight?

Because none of these characters even compare to falcon

 

[A_Kae]

Yeah... What is defined as heavy? Technically, Samus, Ryu, and Shulk could count too since they're, well, heavy. Heavies are probably slower moving, slower attacking, and large hurtbox characters. Well, Ike fits the slower attacking part, but his air speed is good, run speed is fairly decent, and his hurtbox isn't really large. No Arts Shulk fits the slower attacking part, but everything else is average. Link fits the slower attacking, slower moving, but not the large hurtbox part...

Maybe I should have limited heavies to Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, and Ganondorf. Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, Samus, Shulk, and Wario could count as the cruiserweights?

For an actual discussion on the typical heavy characters, I'd agree that those 5 are what should be talked about. The others are more characters that just happen to be heavy.

Some lighter characters fill the weight criteria for being heavy, but not the general playstyle concept.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I like characters who can do it all, from postional zoning foosties game, to rushdown pressure punish-heavy games. that is brawl MK, melee fox, ssb64 pikachu, mvc2 sentinel, super turbo dhalsim, usf4 akuma, seth, ken, juri, chun li, and most importantly, karnov's revenge Ray and breaker's revenge Sho.
so i play Roy and Rob.

I think you should investigate

I like counters and air throws because they're both really satisfying to land. Throwing crap is also nice as long as it isn't just light beams which don't seem like they'd hurt. Wesker's gunshot & counters, Marth's air counter, Juri's counter-teleport + throwing crap, Link & Tink's throwing crap, Taskmaster's air throw-to-super and counters, Karin's air throws and counters.....

........but this isn't a playstyle. Wesker and Link are pretty damn different. I like stuff that breaks the normal flow of a match.

Is arrhythmic a playstyle? Are there characters that specialize in it?

EDIT: And happy birthday to everyone's favorite counterpick *****, Thinkaman.

 

[Ikes]

Wario is so weird, but like, in the best possible way. He's short, heavy, and floaty for his weight, which is a plus. He has amazing frame data and damage output, as well as great combo potential. Not to mention reliable kill power and a kill throw in his Fthrow. His recovery is one of the best in the game and he has the undisputed best command grab in the game. His edgeguarding game is unmatched when he has the waft. (Bike drop off the ledge -> Waft has netted me many KOs on a plethora if characters). And we can't forget his bike, which can do up to 26% when thrown. @TheReflexWonder has also shown off some other cool bike tricks on his channel. Also, his dash attack is one of if not the best in the game. IMO he's the best of the characters you mentioned.

if you wanna watch some incredibly wario play, look up Jeepysol

the guy is a legend

 

[Ikes]

I think Charizard is a pretty legit long term character. He has a good jab, and he has a ridiculously good grab game (probably the best actual grab in the game, low% combo dthrow, very efficient killing uthrow especially if you always ban FD which you obviously will).

I can see where you're coming from, but I'd argue that Donkey Kong has the overall best grab game in smash. His grab range is huge, and cargo is incredibly versatile, allowing him to stage spike opponents at higher % with cargo fthrow or cargo dthrow or if he wants to be extra funky he can go for a trade by dropping into the blast zone. Cargo makes his grab game one of the most unique and versatile grab games out there.

also whoops double post sorry

meant to edit this into the previous post

im too used to the auto merging on facepunch

 

[Xuan Wu]

All righty, how about this discussion? A heavyweights-only discussion - participate if you want. So, Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, and maybe Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, and Wario. How do these guys deal with each other? Who wrecks who and who doesn't do well against who.

In my opinion, assuming a non-customs environment:

≥ > ≥ = > > > > > > >

Unparalleled air speed. He can use it to approach and retreat with ease. Having three ways to recover makes intercepting him impossible.

He is still a formidable force to be reckoned with after the U-air nerf. Combo ability is still intact. F-smash has a deceptively long reach that can out-range sword characters.

Has access to two projectiles for stage control, especially with Gyro. D-throw can follow-up into U-air, which is a good frame trap. His rather large hurtbox could be an issue.

Lingering hitboxes galore! Excellent for frame trapping and gimping. Grab was heavily buffed, though it is still a commitment. Bombs and Z-air are probably his best projectiles.

His throw combos are among the most dangerous in the game. The F-air buff enables kill confirms off of U-throw at high percents; this is especially effective versus fast fallers. His massively buffed Dash Attack improves his mid-range game considerably.

Of the heavies, I think he has the most shield breaking potential, thanks to Headbutt and Hand Slap. His large hurtbox does hinder him, however.

There may still be potential left in this character as he could be explored further. Mechakoopa is excellent for stage control and Abandon Ship can be useful against some recoveries.

His buffs grant him a scary throw game. D-throw for comboing, and U-throw for KOing; the latter is especially deadly on platform stages. Flamethrower is good for interrupting approaches and, to a lesser extent, recoveries.

Auto-cancelled D-air and untechable Flame Choke may be gone, but he can still tech chase rather well. Just a few mistakes against him can lead to an early KO.

A hyped character during the pre-release and 3DS days. With the right reads, he can end stocks in matter of seconds. Despite being considerably buffed from SSBB, he retains several glaring flaws, such as his difficulty with landing. He seems to have fallen out of the radar.

Remember that one performance of her at CEO? Looks like she can be useful in certain match-ups. Much like Link, Z-air is probably her best zoning tool.

A large frame coupled with poor mobility is an awful combination. Gordos, while good for stage control, are exploitable as they can be used against him. His grabs and throws are something to be feared, though.

^-^

 

[A2ZOMG]

As long as people keep saying Wario is amazing, Ganondorf will be relevant because he beats Wario. Potentially 6/4 in fact. Wario doesn't pressure Ganon's recovery that well without Waft, doesn't even combo Ganon that heavily, and he gets walled really hard by Ganon, who also has very easy ways to punish the Bike in most situations.

Throw in Ganon's Flame Choke followups (Wario's techroll also is not very good), good edgeguards, really good ability to trap landing options, it's one of Ganon's best matchups by design in this game.

 

[LancerStaff]

Edit 2: After going through the patch notes thread, I can reduce that list to: ZSS, Fox, Shulk, Mega Man. Only characters that haven't been changed in some way that we know of in 1.0.6 or 1.0.8

You forgot Pit and Dark Pit. They've been the same since 1.0.0 besides a weird and incomprehensible change when SSBU rolled around.

 

[A_Kae]

You forgot Pit and Dark Pit. They've been the same since 1.0.0 besides a weird and incomprehensible change when SSBU rolled around.

According to this: http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-7-thread-updated-may-1st.398902/

Super Pit Brothers
Bug Fix No longer clips through sloped terrain when using ledge getup attack as someone else grabs the ledge. (1.0.5) (1.0.6)

 

[LancerStaff]

According to this: http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-patch-version-1-0-6-7-thread-updated-may-1st.398902/

Super Pit Brothers
Bug Fix No longer clips through sloped terrain when using ledge getup attack as someone else grabs the ledge. (1.0.5) (1.0.6)

Oh yeah... Always forget about that 'cause it was highly situational and didn't effect the match at all.

Well, besides a silly bug and some windbox on a move with no wind they haven't been touched.

 

[A_Kae]

Oh yeah... Always forget about that 'cause it was highly situational and didn't effect the match at all.

Well, besides a silly bug and some windbox on a move with no wind they haven't been touched.

To be honest here, I didn't actually look at what was changed, I just looked to see if there were changes when I made that list.

If I had paid attention to what the change was, I would have kept them on my list.

 

[Ikes]

In my opinion, assuming a non-customs environment:

≥ > ≥ = > > > > > > >

I think I can agree that DK is the best of the "true" heavies

Ike I dont consider as much of a heavy since he's a fairly mobile swordie, though he's clearly heavy i wont disagree

 

[C0rvus]

On the subject of narcissism, I'd like to talk about myself and my first-world problems for a bit. In my defense, it's my birthday, which mentioning somehow makes this less self-absorbed rather than more. (I dunno man; I don't make the rules.)

So I'm sort of freaking out about EVO, which is in like 8 days. I haven't played Smash 4 in well over a month, and I still don't have a main. This is kind of a big issue.


People romanticize not having a main (or worse, "maining random"), but it's basically a huge hassle that forms this big barrier to investing time in the game and actually, truly mastering matchups. All your XP is divided.

Every time I try to devote myself to one character, I show up to a tourney intent on playing only them, proceed to lose game 1, switch to whoever I think will do best, and win. So then next match I apologize to God for my poor decision and promise to stick with this character, only for the whole thing to repeat. I place well, go home, reflect on the characters I did best with, and inevitably decide somehow that the solution is to also play Charizard.

Next thing you know I'm living in a complex polygamous relationship with a bunch of characters, and the fact that this includes Ganon and Ness makes me really uncomfortable with this analogy.


I'm vaguely worried about showing up and embarrassing myself on zero practice, but I'm more bothered by the idea of wasting the opportunity. (And the cost, in a sense.) I'm definitely still going, way too late to back out now, but it's been a big concern weighing on my mind.

I guess I just need to find someone local to practice with in my spare time next week, and hold them at gunpoint until they play Smash with me. (My understanding is that this is the proper social protocol for Chicago.)

But more relevant to you guys, who here is going to EVO?!?!?! We should totally do some shenanigans.

This is my problem as well. I flounder around and pick characters for any number of reasons, and tournament day comes, and I come out swinging with the fresh character, only to lose and pick a better character I've had in the back seat for ages. Then, upon returning home, I decide that Falco suits my playstyle very well and I will play Falco.

I just want off this wild mainless ride.

Slightly more on topic, what does everyone think of the fate of customs post-EVO? I hear ramblings that local TOs are already considering being done with them. Not sure how to feel, I feel like we still know so little about the customs meta, but at the same time I have never really played a character that relies on them.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Wario's damage output is anything but amazing, and his DA is great but definitely isn't the best. (Fox's is just as fast and he gets more rewards off them)

I said "one of" the best. But you got me on the damage output thing. Not sure why I put that.

I can see where you're coming from, but I'd argue that Donkey Kong has the overall best grab game in smash. His grab range is huge, and cargo is incredibly versatile, allowing him to stage spike opponents at higher % with cargo fthrow or cargo dthrow or if he wants to be extra funky he can go for a trade by dropping into the blast zone. Cargo makes his grab game one of the most unique and versatile grab games out there.

also whoops double post sorry

meant to edit this into the previous post

im too used to the auto merging on facepunch

DK doesn't have the best grab game. It's good, but Luigi exists. Cargo spiking is a bit overhyped. It KOs after Back throw and the stage spike will always be teched at high level play. As far as unique goes, DK takes the cake for sure.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I play Ryu because he was the first fighting game character I ever played. He taught me how to play fighting games. What zoning is. How to control the pace of a match. First special move I ever did was a hadouken. For alot of you youngins in here, that don't really know who Ryu is, he IS the face of fighting games. The nostalgia runs deep with him.

I play Marth because I love footsies and in Melee I felt he was the only "pure" fighting game character. I could take what I knew in other fighters and it applied to him so perfectly. He could do things many other characters couldnt do thanks to his range and frame data. Marth as a character forces you to really play the game. Yes he is oppressive vs characters he beats but generally nothing is free or janky. He can't simply spam. He has to know when to hit buttons. When to block. When to run. When to advance and when to fall back. He plays the actual "game".

I also like Marth because he's kind of Street Fighter-y with the spacing the footsies and the fundamentals ...though I mained Chun throughout SF2. Maximillian, the guy who makes those Youtubes on several fighting games, also started with Marth when learning Smash. He even expressed a feeling I had when I was learning Smash: "I feel like I'm in a constant juggle state."

Link is probably going to wreck all of them except Wario, and that's mainly due to Link's strong projectile game, and the other's low speed and mobility.

...and the disjoint on jab 1 eats them alive. (But Link's gotta respect Charizard's side-B cause it plows through everything.) My Link's never had a problem with any Ike, either.

Vs BowserJr. I feel it's pretty even with Link. They both zone from afar and can hit hard up close, so mistakes on either end stop a stock. Link's got slightly better zoning for a slightly worse grab.