Character Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

As long as people keep saying Wario is amazing, Ganondorf will be relevant because he beats Wario. Potentially 6/4 in fact. Wario doesn't pressure Ganon's recovery that well without Waft, doesn't even combo Ganon that heavily, and he gets walled really hard by Ganon, who also has very easy ways to punish the Bike in most situations.

Throw in Ganon's Flame Choke followups (Wario's techroll also is not very good), good edgeguards, really good ability to trap landing options, it's one of Ganon's best matchups by design in this game.

This doesn't seem right to me and Wario can just run away from ganon. There's a severe lack of Warios so MU discussion is pretty difficult. But with tgat said I find it hard to believe Wario loses to ganon.

I think bowser jr is being slep on. He has a better recovery nuetral and up close game than most of the other heavyweight characters. I don't think his recovery is better than Wario's. Then he also has a great combo game. His throws are lacking but he's probably the most versatile heavy in the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This doesn't seem right to me and Wario can just run away from ganon. There's a severe lack of Warios so MU discussion is pretty difficult. But with tgat said I find it hard to believe Wario loses to ganon.

You can't run away when there's no stage left to retreat, and Wario cannot do a single thing to move through Ganon that won't get punished if the Ganon spaces his N-air and D-tilt well. Even the Bike is easily punished by Ganon just going for N-air in neutral.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

#latetotheparty



I typically prefer CQC fighters that have a combination of great mobility (especially aerial mobility), solid aerials, great special moves, solid combo games, decent to solid power, and are overall quite versatile. Low landing lag is also a plus for me.

I like getting into my opponent's face, and applying pressure at point blank. Which is why I typically prefer my characters to at least have decent mobility specs and options.

Out of this group, Mewtwo is probably the only odd one out, but that is because I like Mewtwo's mobility specs and overall moveset. It just flows really well together imo...even if he needs some buffs.

All righty, how about this discussion? A heavyweights-only discussion - participate if you want. So, Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, Ganondorf, and maybe Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, and Wario. How do these guys deal with each other? Who wrecks who and who doesn't do well against who.

---

Maybe I should have limited heavies to Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, and Ganondorf. Bowser Jr., Ike, Link, Samus, Shulk, and Wario could count as the cruiserweights?

I would personally classify anyone having Ryu's weight and up to be a "heavyweight". But in regards to what you are talking about, those five characters would be considered "super heavyweights". But that is just me.


Anywho:

Easily the best of the heavyweights. Not only does he have a lot more mobility, but he also has Chomp. In my opinion, an "aerial grab" such as Chomp is especially deadly for most of the other heavyweight characters, because they don't really have the leeway to escape from it as much as the speedy lightweight characters do. This allows Wario to shut down their shielding options, which they are a bit more reliant on than other characters due to their lack of mobility and large size. Plus Wario can combo the other heavyweights pretty reliably, though his combos are nowhere near the level as some other characters.

Without having as many projectiles to worry about, as well as mobile characters, Ganondorf's risk/reward leans a lot more in his favor. Against Bowser, Charizard, DeDeDe, and DK; Ganondorf is going to win, because the rewards he gets off of his hits are simply much better. Besides having Flame Choke, he also has access to the best aerials overall amongst the group, and that is his greatest asset for him winning against them. Bowser's landing lag is absolutely absurd, so he doesn't have any real landing options to avoid the inevitable grab/punish. Charizard is similar to Bowser, but not as bad because he has an extra jump and access to Rock Smash. Ganondorf gets a lot more reward off of his hits than D3 does. And DK can't use his Fair to send an opponent horizontally (plus it is really slow), so that hurts him pretty badly in the matchup. This also translates to their matchups on the ground as well, for the most part, because Ganondorf's legs are going to beat most of them in a range war. Sure, D3 has his Ftilt, but that's about it. Ganondorf can just attack him from the air, and he beats D3 in the mobility department.

The only real threat Ganondorf has on the ground is against Charizard, but even then I still think Ganondorf wins. Unlike the other super heavyweights though, Charizard has a really good jab, nice range on his Ftilt, has a Flamethrower, and has Rock Smash to help him mix things up against Ganondorf. Not to mention Charizard's grab/Uthrow, which are the biggest reasons why he would fair better against Ganondorf than the other three. Regardless, Ganondorf will probably win the matchup, but at least Charizard has the proper amount of tools at his disposal to have a closer matchup against him.

Grab buff helps him a lot. Not only can he wall people out with his projectiles (bomb especially), but his hookshot became even scarier now thanks to the patch. Easily has the best tether grab in the game now IMO. It's pretty fast considering the range that thing has. And thanks to his disjoints, he won't have trouble with most of the other heavyweights barring overall matchup spreads, in which Wario has him beat solidly. Though I think he could probably go even with Wario now? idk. He probably goes even with Ganondorf too.

Buffs were HUGE for him. Dude is way faster than you would expect, and does a lot more damage than his speed lets on. Shorthop Nair -> Up B allows him to built a lot of damage reliably after a clean hit, around ~26-29%, which greatly helps his offensive presence. His recovery is better now too thanks to his Quickdraw buff. Ike is pretty scary now IMO. Only problem he has is that his recovery, while better, is still extremely linear.

The biggest thing holding him back is the lack of an aerial with REALLY good horizontal knockback. That, and his Fair is pretty terrible. If those two things were changed, he would be a lot harder to deal with. But as it stands right now, he's just a bit more bark than he is bite. But he does have workable tools. Just nothing to really shut other characters out unlike the other heavyweight characters, which is why he is not as good as them. Heck, even his ground moves don't send the opponent that far horizontally, unless you count Fsmash (I don't). It sucks, because if he had at least one or two move moves that had more horizontal knockback, I would rate him a lot higher. Bair is the only noteworthy thing that fills this criteria, and it's still not as good as what the other heavyweights have to offer in terms of knockback.

Despite my love for the character, he's bad. Gordos are a joke, as are...all of his special moves, honestly. Ftilt's a good poke but it's very punishable against someone approaching you from the air. Jab is super slow despite allowing Jab 2 -> Grab setups. Bair is his best aerial overall thanks to decent speed, high damage/knockback, and low landing lag...though it can easily be beaten out by faster attacks. Dsmash is, thankfully, amazing. He would be a lot worse without it, because Fsmash is pretty garbage. However, other than Bair/Nair/Dthrow/Ftilt/Dtilt/Dsmash and sometimes Jab/Uair/Utilt/Usmash, he feels really really bad. Definitely the worst heavyweight besides Samus. He REALLY wishes he had his old Dair...even though that wouldn't fix most of his problems. Penguin bro seriously needs to see an adviser about his special moves in particular. I hardly bother using any of them. Oh, and his mobility severely holds him back, too. But that goes without saying.

Fear his Usmash. That is all.

Too lazy to write opinions for the other characters~



Overall:

> ≥ / > // > > / > / > >

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You can't run away when there's no stage left to retreat, and Wario cannot do a single thing to move through Ganon that won't get punished if the Ganon spaces his N-air and D-tilt well. Even the Bike is easily punished by Ganon just going for N-air in neutral.

Wario can travel under the stage. Pretty sure ganon can't chase him down if he opts to do that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wario can travel under the stage. Pretty sure ganon can't chase him down if he opts to do that.

It takes a really long time to do that, and Ganon can punish this SEVERELY with tipman U-air. Not a smart idea.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I can see where you're coming from, but I'd argue that Donkey Kong has the overall best grab game in smash. His grab range is huge, and cargo is incredibly versatile, allowing him to stage spike opponents at higher % with cargo fthrow or cargo dthrow or if he wants to be extra funky he can go for a trade by dropping into the blast zone. Cargo makes his grab game one of the most unique and versatile grab games out there.

also whoops double post sorry

meant to edit this into the previous post

im too used to the auto merging on facepunch

DK's grab game is pretty good (one of his best attributes), but it's not as good as Charizard's. DK's throws kill a lot later than zard's, cargo won't realistically hold them long enough to go off stage (the cargo throws themselves are pretty good though!), and DK doesn't have the same kinds of low percent combos. Even more, Charizard can jab cancel grab after jab 1 or jab 2 while DK's jab doesn't cancel into grab nearly as well. And even after that, as awesome as DK's grab range is, Charizard's is even better. Charizard has so much grab range that sometimes the opponent visibly teleports into his arms; it's a really, really massive grabbox he puts out there that not even DK can compete with. Charizard has the best grab in the game, the second best set of throws (after Ness), and a jab that sets up for grab very well. I'm quite confident he has the best grab game with all of that taken in context. DK's is "pretty good", but it's just not quite on the same level.

 

[Blobface]

Re: Heavies

None of the heavies (minus Wario, who's way different from a normal heavy) have any significant disadvantage/advantage against eachother. On a basic level, most heavies are pretty similar, meaning they can all flip the match in a manner of seconds. The better player will almost always win.

Most heavies are a lot better than most people think, able to do well in most matchups. But they all suffer from the same problem; terrible top-tier matchups. Ganon I know hates Rosalina, Villager, and ZSS (pikachu to a lesser degree), and every heavy hates Sheik with a passion. And if you buffed heavies to compete in these terrible matchups, now the heavies are the ones with ridiculous advantages against other characters.

With that said, daily reminder that Ganondorf has a 14% damage F10 Dash Attack that covers a third of FD that has a lingering hitbox and sets up combos.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It takes a really long time to do that, and Ganon can punish this SEVERELY with tipman U-air. Not a smart idea.

The next time I come across a Wario I'll give ganon a shot. Although I suspect it won't be pretty. I'm already getting scraped in the MU when I use my main at this point I'm willing to try anything /anyone.

 

[Ffamran]

I meant more like if there was a heavyweights-only tournament, how would they do against it each other?

 

[A2ZOMG]

The next time I come across a Wario I'll give ganon a shot. Although I suspect it won't be pretty. I'm already getting scraped in the MU when I use my main at this point I'm willing to try anything /anyone.

Rosalina I would imagine does worse because her forward facing aerials are actually pretty bad especially if Luma gets killed, and she's also floaty. She also doesn't have as good of air KO moves outside of U-air, compared to Ganon for that matter.

With Ganon, it's really as simple as it sounds. N-air and D-tilt force Wario in a pretty bad position in this matchup given he doesn't have a direct answer to beat them. Wario also really doesn't want to recover low against Ganon's N-air and U-air, generally speaking.

Re: Heavies

None of the heavies (minus Wario, who's way different from a normal heavy) have any significant disadvantage/advantage against eachother. On a basic level, most heavies are pretty similar, meaning they can all flip the match in a manner of seconds. The better player will almost always win.

Most heavies are a lot better than most people think, able to do well in most matchups. But they all suffer from the same problem; terrible top-tier matchups. Ganon I know hates Rosalina, Villager, and ZSS (pikachu to a lesser degree), and every heavy hates Sheik with a passion. And if you buffed heavies to compete in these terrible matchups, now the heavies are the ones with ridiculous advantages against other characters.

With that said, daily reminder that Ganondorf has a 14% damage F10 Dash Attack that covers a third of FD that has a lingering hitbox and sets up combos.

Nitpick, but my experience in playing Ganon vs Heavies is less that the better player wins, but rather the result tends to be really volatile in practice. Huge momentum swings aren't directly an indicator of skill, but more how drastically someone gets rewarded for reads.

I meant more like if there was a heavyweights-only tournament, how would they do against it each other?

It would be won either by Link or Falcon, judging by the characters available.

 

[Kofu]

I think bowser jr is being slep on. He has a better recovery nuetral and up close game than most of the other heavyweight characters. I don't think his recovery is better than Wario's. Then he also has a great combo game. His throws are lacking but he's probably the most versatile heavy in the game.

Bowser Jr., in my mind, is something of a mix between a standard combo-oriented character and a bait-and-punish one. His combos are the real deal and his disjoints are crazy (his FAir is one of my favorite moves in the game). USmash and FSmash are bonkers at punishing poor dodges thanks to their multi-hit properties and Mechakoopa gives him interesting stage control. However he is hindered by his generally poor mobility outside of Clown Kart Dash (IIRC he's honestly not a lot better than Robin overall), poor grab game (both the grab itself as well as throws), a semi-disfunctional jab (if it was harder to escape it would probably be a Rosalina-tier rapid jab), and a fairly exploitable recovery. I don't recall offhand but if an attack doesn't put him into tumble after using his Up-B he'll be unable to use it again until he lands, allowing for some very sad low-percent gimps (though I doubt it's as big a problem for players like Tweek).

He really impressed me when I first tried him in 3DS Classic. He's definitely not as good as I thought but a strong character in the right hands. His kit reminds me of Game & Watch in some ways which is probably partially why I like him.

As a side note, I must be one of the only people who likes the Impatient Mechakoopa custom. You lose out on the stage control/item play of the default but gain some amusing zone-breaking properties (and in my experience he seems to struggle with zoners some). It retains the health of the default while sending it on a quick horizontal path to detonate when it hits a foe, going through weak projectiles it hits unhindered (I don't recall offhand if it explodes from hitting other specific entities). I don't necessarily think it's the best for all matchups but it seems like a good tool. Of particular note is that it's kind of Pocket-proof. If Villager takes it out after Pocketing it it'll blow up before he can do anything.

 

[Dabuz]

So apparently Rich Brown beat Vinnie's Sheik 3-1 and brought Mr.R to game 5 last hit at today's local with Olimar...a MU considered nigh unwinnable, not sure if his MU knowledge just trumps theirs or if there is something with Oli we don't see that lets him contend with Sheik, just wanted to share that as it's a pretty ridiculous feat regardless.

 

[Smog Frog]

the second best set of throws (after Ness)

does REALLY have the best overall set of throws in the game? dthrow and bthrow are pretty good, but fthrow situational and uthrow seems like a bleh throw. if we're talking overall throws then has the best(imo, because all of his throws barring dthrow kill, and dthrow sets up nasty locks and 0-deaths). were you accounting for the grab when you were assessing throws?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Bowser Jr., in my mind, is something of a mix between a standard combo-oriented character and a bait-and-punish one. His combos are the real deal and his disjoints are crazy (his FAir is one of my favorite moves in the game). USmash and FSmash are bonkers at punishing poor dodges thanks to their multi-hit properties and Mechakoopa gives him interesting stage control. However he is hindered by his generally poor mobility outside of Clown Kart Dash (IIRC he's honestly not a lot better than Robin overall), poor grab game (both the grab itself as well as throws), a semi-disfunctional jab (if it was harder to escape it would probably be a Rosalina-tier rapid jab), and a fairly exploitable recovery. I don't recall offhand but if an attack doesn't put him into tumble after using his Up-B he'll be unable to use it again until he lands, allowing for some very sad low-percent gimps (though I doubt it's as big a problem for players like Tweek).

He really impressed me when I first tried him in 3DS Classic. He's definitely not as good as I thought but a strong character in the right hands. His kit reminds me of Game & Watch in some ways which is probably partially why I like him.

As a side note, I must be one of the only people who likes the Impatient Mechakoopa custom. You lose out on the stage control/item play of the default but gain some amusing zone-breaking properties (and in my experience he seems to struggle with zoners some). It retains the health of the default while sending it on a quick horizontal path to detonate when it hits a foe, going through weak projectiles it hits unhindered (I don't recall offhand if it explodes from hitting other specific entities). I don't necessarily think it's the best for all matchups but it seems like a good tool. Of particular note is that it's kind of Pocket-proof. If Villager takes it out after Pocketing it it'll blow up before he can do anything.

He's a lot better than Robin. Robin sucks.

 

[bc1910]

Lucas easily has the best set of throws in the game, if U/D/B/F are weighted equally. Better than Ness' even if you consider his Fthrow useful. All of Lucas' throws are better except Bthrow.

I think Charizard is the best true heavy now that his throws are so good. Before that, I would have said DK regardless of customs. Extending "heavy" to characters with high weight (cause most of them don't play like heavies), I think Wario is the best. Prepatch I would have said best by far, but Link and Ike are catching him up. They overtook Bowser Jr. in this sense.

So apparently Rich Brown beat Vinnie's Sheik 3-1 and brought Mr.R to game 5 last hit at today's local with Olimar...a MU considered nigh unwinnable, not sure if his MU knowledge just trumps theirs or if there is something with Oli we don't see that lets him contend with Sheik, just wanted to share that as it's a pretty ridiculous feat regardless.

Interesting. I assume you didn't see the match? When the matches are uploaded things should get clearer.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

does REALLY have the best overall set of throws in the game? dthrow and bthrow are pretty good, but fthrow situational and uthrow seems like a bleh throw. if we're talking overall throws then has the best(imo, because all of his throws barring dthrow kill, and dthrow sets up nasty locks and 0-deaths). were you accounting for the grab when you were assessing throws?

No, I just meant throws. Ness's dthrow leads to combos not significantly worse than Lucas's (Lucas is not able to force any kind of 0-death out of dthrow; those are training dummy only shenanigans). Ness's bthrow kills significantly earlier than Lucas's... or anyone else's throw of any sort really. Ness's fthrow is an excellent throw, almost always putting his opponent off-stage in the awkward percent range between combos off dthrow and kills off bthrow. Ness's uthrow is rarely used but not even bad; it sets up for juggle chases pretty well, but Ness's other three throws are just so incredible in covering almost every conceivable situation that he rarely needs it.

EDIT: Obviously you don't assess all four throws equally. You assess average reward off throwing. There isn't a medal for using all four throws equally.

It is true that Lucas's grab is so uniquely horrible that he struggles to use his excellent throws, but I wasn't holding that against him at that time. I was factoring in the chase options though, and Lucas's dthrow is definitely held back by him not having a move as good as Ness fair to combo with (his combo options aren't bad, but against an opponent who is using things like DI, he will rarely get aerial chains as long as what Ness will get with fairs). I do think Lucas's dthrow chases work at better percent ranges than Ness's which is a plus, but Lucas doesn't have a good mid-percent throw like Ness fthrow (Ness fthrow is really a very unique tool) and Lucas's three kill throws all kill later than Ness's one which means for practical purposes Lucas has to wait to higher percents to end a stock off a grab. To be honest, I wasn't thinking of Lucas, I would agree his set of throws are pretty high ranking, but I still value what Ness and Charizard have more.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

#latetotheparty



I typically prefer CQC fighters that have a combination of great mobility (especially aerial mobility), solid aerials, great special moves, solid combo games, decent to solid power, and are overall quite versatile. Low landing lag is also a plus for me.

I like getting into my opponent's face, and applying pressure at point blank. Which is why I typically prefer my characters to at least have decent mobility specs and options.

Out of this group, Mewtwo is probably the only odd one out, but that is because I like Mewtwo's mobility specs and overall moveset. It just flows really well together imo...even if he needs some buffs.


I would personally classify anyone having Ryu's weight and up to be a "heavyweight". But in regards to what you are talking about, those five characters would be considered "super heavyweights". But that is just me.


Anywho:

Easily the best of the heavyweights. Not only does he have a lot more mobility, but he also has Chomp. In my opinion, an "aerial grab" such as Chomp is especially deadly for most of the other heavyweight characters, because they don't really have the leeway to escape from it as much as the speedy lightweight characters do. This allows Wario to shut down their shielding options, which they are a bit more reliant on than other characters due to their lack of mobility and large size. Plus Wario can combo the other heavyweights pretty reliably, though his combos are nowhere near the level as some other characters.

Without having as many projectiles to worry about, as well as mobile characters, Ganondorf's risk/reward leans a lot more in his favor. Against Bowser, Charizard, DeDeDe, and DK; Ganondorf is going to win, because the rewards he gets off of his hits are simply much better. Besides having Flame Choke, he also has access to the best aerials overall amongst the group, and that is his greatest asset for him winning against them. Bowser's landing lag is absolutely absurd, so he doesn't have any real landing options to avoid the inevitable grab/punish. Charizard is similar to Bowser, but not as bad because he has an extra jump and access to Rock Smash. Ganondorf gets a lot more reward off of his hits than D3 does. And DK can't use his Fair to send an opponent horizontally (plus it is really slow), so that hurts him pretty badly in the matchup. This also translates to their matchups on the ground as well, for the most part, because Ganondorf's legs are going to beat most of them in a range war. Sure, D3 has his Ftilt, but that's about it. Ganondorf can just attack him from the air, and he beats D3 in the mobility department.

The only real threat Ganondorf has on the ground is against Charizard, but even then I still think Ganondorf wins. Unlike the other super heavyweights though, Charizard has a really good jab, nice range on his Ftilt, has a Flamethrower, and has Rock Smash to help him mix things up against Ganondorf. Not to mention Charizard's grab/Uthrow, which are the biggest reasons why he would fair better against Ganondorf than the other three. Regardless, Ganondorf will probably win the matchup, but at least Charizard has the proper amount of tools at his disposal to have a closer matchup against him.

Grab buff helps him a lot. Not only can he wall people out with his projectiles (bomb especially), but his hookshot became even scarier now thanks to the patch. Easily has the best tether grab in the game now IMO. It's pretty fast considering the range that thing has. And thanks to his disjoints, he won't have trouble with most of the other heavyweights barring overall matchup spreads, in which Wario has him beat solidly. Though I think he could probably go even with Wario now? idk. He probably goes even with Ganondorf too.

Buffs were HUGE for him. Dude is way faster than you would expect, and does a lot more damage than his speed lets on. Shorthop Nair -> Up B allows him to built a lot of damage reliably after a clean hit, around ~26-29%, which greatly helps his offensive presence. His recovery is better now too thanks to his Quickdraw buff. Ike is pretty scary now IMO. Only problem he has is that his recovery, while better, is still extremely linear.

The biggest thing holding him back is the lack of an aerial with REALLY good horizontal knockback. That, and his Fair is pretty terrible. If those two things were changed, he would be a lot harder to deal with. But as it stands right now, he's just a bit more bark than he is bite. But he does have workable tools. Just nothing to really shut other characters out unlike the other heavyweight characters, which is why he is not as good as them. Heck, even his ground moves don't send the opponent that far horizontally, unless you count Fsmash (I don't). It sucks, because if he had at least one or two move moves that had more horizontal knockback, I would rate him a lot higher. Bair is the only noteworthy thing that fills this criteria, and it's still not as good as what the other heavyweights have to offer in terms of knockback.

Despite my love for the character, he's bad. Gordos are a joke, as are...all of his special moves, honestly. Ftilt's a good poke but it's very punishable against someone approaching you from the air. Jab is super slow despite allowing Jab 2 -> Grab setups. Bair is his best aerial overall thanks to decent speed, high damage/knockback, and low landing lag...though it can easily be beaten out by faster attacks. Dsmash is, thankfully, amazing. He would be a lot worse without it, because Fsmash is pretty garbage. However, other than Bair/Nair/Dthrow/Ftilt/Dtilt/Dsmash and sometimes Jab/Uair/Utilt/Usmash, he feels really really bad. Definitely the worst heavyweight besides Samus. He REALLY wishes he had his old Dair...even though that wouldn't fix most of his problems. Penguin bro seriously needs to see an adviser about his special moves in particular. I hardly bother using any of them. Oh, and his mobility severely holds him back, too. But that goes without saying.

Fear his Usmash. That is all.

Too lazy to write opinions for the other characters~



Overall:

> ≥ / > // > > / > / > >

100% agree with the horizontal knockback thing about DK. It gives him a lot of trouble in the Rosalina matchup because he can't kill Luma early. His moves have good KBG but no base knockback, which is great for low % combos and high % KOing but bad for everything else.
Also @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY You mentioned earlier today that even top Marios don't go mario in the Rosalina matchup? Guess what Boreal Ally did a few hours ago in Grand Finals. http://youtu.be/tUBTm_AVK24

I'm not saying you're wrong about what you said (this doesn't really count because it's Ally lol) but I just find it hysterical that this just happened lol.

 

[Lwin]

Upon further inspection I've come to the conclusion that we've been sleeping on Ganon. Has anyone ever taken the time to see that he has stupidly low percent kill confirm off shield break with his utilt? It doesn't matter how bad he gets juggled, all that's needed is a few good hits and its over. It's so crazy with customs on too. Ganon forces shiek to approach him and respect him with his crazy long range sword that ARMORS through needles, effectively negating shield camping game.
Ganons ledge traps are unreal too, if you find yourself between the ledge and a properly spaced Ganon you're going to receive hell. Most characters don't have an answer to spaced dtilts and nairs (to cover the aerial options) and end up getting socked, possible setting up for an edgeguard.
Speaking of edgeguards, Mario and Luigi are forced to respect Ganons aerials and recover high, which leaves them open to potent landing traps and possibly infinite side B chains. I really could say a lot more but I think you guys get the point. It would be wise to stock up on my knowledge and experience before the inevitable wave of Ganon mains. You heard it here first folks.

EDIT: wow what happened to my first post knowledge suppression maybe ?? Some people might already know hmm

 

[NachoOfCheese]

DK's grab game is pretty good (one of his best attributes), but it's not as good as Charizard's. DK's throws kill a lot later than zard's, cargo won't realistically hold them long enough to go off stage (the cargo throws themselves are pretty good though!), and DK doesn't have the same kinds of low percent combos. Even more, Charizard can jab cancel grab after jab 1 or jab 2 while DK's jab doesn't cancel into grab nearly as well. And even after that, as awesome as DK's grab range is, Charizard's is even better. Charizard has so much grab range that sometimes the opponent visibly teleports into his arms; it's a really, really massive grabbox he puts out there that not even DK can compete with. Charizard has the best grab in the game, the second best set of throws (after Ness), and a jab that sets up for grab very well. I'm quite confident he has the best grab game with all of that taken in context. DK's is "pretty good", but it's just not quite on the same level.

DK isn't supposed to Jab to Grab. I mean it works but Dtilt has a 40% trip chance which will always lead to a grab. Doesn't trip the first time? That's okay because he can just Dtilt again at low %s. I agree with everything else though. Charizard's grab game is downright terrifying now. It's like Ness but with a ton of range. And platform cheese. And fire.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I just can't be silent about this.

Ganon forces shiek to approach him and respect him

This is it. I found it. The most false statement in all of Smashboards. They thought I was crazy. They thought it didn't exist. But I found it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Upon further inspection I've come to the conclusion that we've been sleeping on Ganon. Has anyone ever taken the time to see that he has stupidly low percent kill confirm off shield break with his utilt?

I feel like we're being trolled here.

"Guys, I found a really cool Ganon combo:

1. Break someone's shield
2. Hit them with a powerful move
3. They will probably die

Prepare for an influx of Ganon mains."

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I feel like we're being trolled here.

"Guys, I found a really cool Ganon combo. You can break someone's shield, and then hit them with a powerful move, and they will probably die! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING; prepare for the influx of new Ganon mains."

On that note, Roy has a sick 0-death that's guaranteed on THE ENTIRE CAST.
It's simple. Hold down the b button until it's fully charged and then hit them with it. GET READY FOR THE ROY REVOLUTION GUYS.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I played our local very strong Sheik with Ganon once. What he did to me could be called many things and was probably not legal in some states, but I do not believe the word "respect" was involved.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

100% agree with the horizontal knockback thing about DK. It gives him a lot of trouble in the Rosalina matchup because he can't kill Luma early. His moves have good KBG but no base knockback, which is great for low % combos and high % KOing but bad for everything else.
Also @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY You mentioned earlier today that even top Marios don't go mario in the Rosalina matchup? Guess what Boreal Ally did a few hours ago in Grand Finals. http://youtu.be/tUBTm_AVK24

I'm not saying you're wrong about what you said (this doesn't really count because it's Ally lol) but I just find it hysterical that this just happened lol.

I saw that earlier and was like son of a... it's pretty ironic though. Gonna have to check those matches out when I get a chance.

 

[A_Kae]

I feel like we're being trolled here.

"Guys, I found a really cool Ganon combo:

1. Break someone's shield
2. Hit them with a powerful move
3. They will probably die

Prepare for an influx of Ganon mains."

On that note, Roy has a sick 0-death that's guaranteed on THE ENTIRE CAST.
It's simple. Hold down the b button until it's fully charged and then hit them with it. GET READY FOR THE ROY REVOLUTION GUYS.

I'm wondering how these will affect the meta. Very, very strong combo and 0-death here.

I think Sheik's got to drop from the top spot with these revelations. Sheik's just can't compete with that kind of power.

 

[Yonder]

So I played online today with a friend using Robin. [don't use him often]..he moves so slow walk speed and dash speed wise I thought my game was lagging and complained to my friend about it...

Turns out we had perfect connection.

 

[A_Kae]

So I played online today with a friend using Robin. [don't use him often]..he moves so slow walk speed and dash speed wise I thought my game was lagging and complained to my friend about it...

Turns out we had perfect connection.

It really is terrible.

Dash 1.15 (55/55)
Walk 0.891 (44/55)

 

[Yonder]

It really is terrible.

Dash 1.15 (55/55)
Walk 0.891 (44/55)

...his dash is slower than Jigglypuffs?!

 

[A_Kae]

...his dash is slower than Jigglypuffs?!

His dash is the slowest of everyone.

When I said it was terrible, I really meant it.

 

[Yonder]

And I just read up on Smashwiki Robin even has the slowest jab...slowest dash...can someone tell me some redeeming factors for Robin?I know his leven sword is amazing still for kills on the air and ground...projectiles are ok, not great compared to others. That's about it. My mind has flip flopped a whole ton on the worst character in the game between many [Lol Megaman in the 1st week like everyone else 3DS release, Doc, Wii Fit Trainer] and I honestly think it's either Robin or Zelda, it's a close one. Robin probably wins out by a hair though. Does Robin get anything from customs?

 

[Smog Frog]

gets speed thunder+a niche side b custom. nothing really special.

 

[Teshie U]

And I just read up on Smashwiki Robin even has the slowest jab...slowest dash...can someone tell me some redeeming factors for Robin?I know his leven sword is amazing still for kills on the air and ground...projectiles are ok, not great compared to others. That's about it. My mind has flip flopped a whole ton on the worst character in the game between many [Lol Megaman in the 1st week like everyone else 3DS release, Doc, Wii Fit Trainer] and I honestly think it's either Robin or Zelda, it's a close one. Robin probably wins out by a hair though. Does Robin get anything from customs?

Robin gets pretty spammy projectile pressure with speed thunder. Lvl 1 thunder is almost like needles, quick moving but not transcendent though. He/She can control alot of space with these faster moving projectiles. The Elwind that shoots him forward is also useful against characters that just wreck her for recovering low (Rosalina, Ganon, Yoshi come to mind). Arc Fire and Arc Thunder combo into Distant nosferatu (honestly that range on the command grab really mixes up well with speed thunder too). and horizontal elwind (which also spikes).

Robin is slow, but he does get some nice reach out of his sword and specials. Think of like a slightly powered down Ganon who actually brought out his sword and magic for once.

 

[Ffamran]

Zelda's jab is actually the slowest at frame 11 with Ganondorf's frame 8 jab coming second. Robin's jab is frame 4 which isn't bad and patch 1.0.6 made Robin's rapid jab better by connecting better, but I played Falco and fast fallers were screwed before and after the patch with Robin's rapid jab.

 

[Locke 06]

And I just read up on Smashwiki Robin even has the slowest jab.

Nope. That jab is good. F4 with a solid disjojnt.

Slowest jab would be Zelda? I don't think anyone is slower than f11.

Smash wiki...

Edit: fine. Whatever bird. Have your

 

[Zionaze]

i took a solid 20 from robins jab when playing as falco :V

 

[Thinkaman]

Robin has a great jab, useable projectiles, and disjoint never goes out of style. Robin is way above Zelda, or non-customs WFT/Palutena.

 

[Ikes]

anyone else been using bombs less and boomerangs more with toon link?

I've been getting weird on-the-fly setups utilizing boomerangs

I recently got a boomerang to actually knock my opponent into the second hit of f-smash which would have otherwise whiffed, pretty neat stuff, all around great projectile

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Can we talk about the Luigi Samus matchup in detail? Yes, ESAM beat a Luigi with samus. But that's one match.
Everyone is saying it's in Samus' favor but this is exactly like what happened when Dabuz went Olimar, beat a Diddy in tourney and everyone was like OMG OLIMAR IS A DIDDY COUNTER!
I don't know enough about Samus to say anything about it but maybe someone here does?

 

[Teshie U]

Zelda's jab is actually the slowest at frame 11 with Ganondorf's frame 8 jab coming second. Robin's jab is frame 4 which isn't bad and patch 1.0.6 made Robin's rapid jab better by connecting better, but I played Falco and fast fallers were screwed before and after the patch with Robin's rapid jab.

Is it better? I play that matchup often enough and I can still SDI in with all the characters I play and Uair her half the time.

Toon Link is soooo much about bombs and boomerangs. Thats really what separates the Links from the other swordmen. the ability to set up those extra traps for complexity imo. Unfortunately, toon link got stupid strong kill confirms from boomerang and bomb (and fire arrows with customs). The character is basically just sit in shield and do bomb to fair over and over.

Luigi is probably Samus best matchup in top tier, but I doubt its like a crushing defeat for Luigi. No matter how well Samus does in neutral, Luigi gets a bunch more any time he gets a clean hit. I really think Megaman counters Luigi much better than Samus for pretty much all the same reasons. Luigi can't get in easily, his projectile gets invalidated, his recovery gets wrecked. He follows up with projectiles so doesn't have to worry about weegee nairing out of combos/setups.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Can we talk about the Luigi Samus matchup in detail? Yes, ESAM beat a Luigi with samus. But that's one match.
Everyone is saying it's in Samus' favor but this is exactly like what happened when Dabuz went Olimar, beat a Diddy in tourney and everyone was like OMG OLIMAR IS A DIDDY COUNTER!
I don't know enough about Samus to say anything about it but maybe someone here does?

It's called the element of surprise.

 

[Ikes]

so I've been testing out Ryu

his true specials are really lenient to pull off. his true shoryuken requires very little precision and all of his hadouken variants can be very easily spammed

I might give him a try, see how I like him