Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Miis are just mostly still uncharted territory for everyone.

 

[Ampetrix]

Okay, time for bias-mobile 101 being used as the basis for debate. Bare with me.
This is a personal list of 15 characters in this game which I feel are either very strong, have polarising (or new mechanics we haven't learned to deal with) match up strengths or are seemingly popular/common in tournament thus far (or some combination of all three).

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I'm an Olimar main, though I'm like an average one since I get my bum handled by the higher-leveled players.

- His huge size makes Olimar's grab more reliant, and whacking him with the pikmin in the air until he dies. Olimar really comboes well against heavies with the dtilt combo and almost guaranteed(unless at high percents) followups with the dthrow combo. Easily to rack up damage, just need to figure out to set that kill move.

- Bananas are expected here. And I catch them awfully well, I don't know why, which seriously disrupt his early percent combo game. He also has good aerials, possibly even better. I'd say it's a bit on his favor since he has a good combo game and with those monkey flips and neutral game. I'd advise to strike when he's setting up that banana.

- Oh boy, two campers, you can expect a long match. You can easily cancel the dog's projectiles at the expense of your pikmin's life. Olimar has theoretically long range when he does an aerial pikmin throw, but you have to prepare for the damn cans. I'd say it's even, it depends who got the strike first.

- This matchup makes me cry, I've just faced off a Falco who used his reflector like a zair and tripper. You can get some pikmin thrown it, but you seriously have to rely on tilts and aerials. You're kill options are limited and you have to catch him offguard to a smash if he uses the reflector damn well. otherwise rack up damage up to 160% and kill him with an up throw blue pikmin.

- I've faced many of them, both good and bad, but there's one thing that I've relied on them: Punish with OoS Grabs. His Jabs are atrocious, Tilts ferocious, Smashes fantabulously awful with that super armor. No need to worry about KO punch, your pikmin will safely remove that for you. Olimar wins the match if he punishes well with the boxer's approach.

- If there's one thing that I have to say, is to kill him before he kills you and fortunately Olimar has some kill power for that. Just make sure that your smashes are fresh and keep racking up the damage and end with an fsmash. You can cancel his aura sphere with your pikmin. Just be wary and punish. Also be careful of his side B when he gets way high damage, it's sort of rangy now. Dying with him at a stock lead with high damage makes it hard to come back, make sure to steal the lead early!

- Not much to say, but damn that fair's good. This gunner has some good tilts too. We need a pioneer for the Miis so they have a chance to evolve in the meta game.

- I'd say it's even. PK fire is cancelled by your pikmin, so he has less sucess doing the down throw fair combo and has to get close to Olimar. I think Olimar has better tilts so he can keep away from the PSI Youth's combo game. Be wary of Ness death grab, as that would ALMOST ALWAYS the thing he does to you. He's gonna break combos with his Nair which is really good.

- Sort of similar to the Psychic Boy, but his Elfire's much dangerous since it stays put without a trigger. Levin Aerials hurt, but you can whack him faster. I'd say it's even, perhaps slightly favored to Olimar!

- I've faced good RosaLuma's and I used to think Olimar can handle her, but that changed my perspective. She spaces really well with a Nair > Dtilt, but can be predictable and dodged by keeping a way. Try not to get cornered or you're forced to take a grab. While Luma's almost absent in terms of projectile game, you have to use a lot of smashes to get her out. It's risky to grab, but well worth the reward if you can pull it off to keep Rosalina and Luma away. It's in Rosalina's favor.

- Olimar can't handle rushdown characters well, and Shiek's one of them. The faster the Shiek is, the harder the battle. Needles can be sort of ignored by crouching. Combos are fast, way fast. I'd advise to take advantage of her low kill power to stay a bit longer and pop out a smash. It's a tough battle.

- He's also fast, but he's predictable with the dash attacks and homing, so he can be easily punished. The worst thing that can happen is that he's predictable. Short hop aerials can work against him, keep away too with the purple pikmin. Not much to say since I lack experience here.

- Oh dear, villager. S/he can pocket your pikmin [ they say all can be pocketted, but I can only pocket purples... ], making your pikmin throws less than useful. Range aerials make it suck for you more too. Like Olimar, Villager has lag on his/her grab, so utilize that. Villager has slower, but more powerful tilts, so tilt game is even. Uair and Dair functions similarly too! I guess it's even.

- that dash attack. Yoshi's really good in the game and can easily juggle you with his aerials and grabs. Though I can't say more about his moveset since all I've seen is that dash attack approach and down special in the air. Though I am certain it's in Yoshi's favor.

- ZSS can't approach with paralyzer shots when your pikmin's around, so she'll either do side b, dash, or grab, which can be easily spot dodged. Her neutral's good, air game too. You have to rely on pikmin throws with the occasional grab to rack up damage. Like yoshi, I haven't seen much of her moveset yet, since that dash attack again -.-

Whew I guess that sums it up. Forgive me if I didn't give much considerations to the movesets but on the patterns on players use.

 

[mimgrim]

Qusetion is, are you really willing to give up the offensive utility
of default cyclone?

Its offensive utility sucks.

So yeah.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Okay, time for bias-mobile 101 being used as the basis for debate. Bare with me.
This is a personal list of 15 characters in this game which I feel are either very strong, have polarising (or new mechanics we haven't learned to deal with) match up strengths or are seemingly popular/common in tournament thus far (or some combination of all three).

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The experience.

-------------

<

Pit's ground game still outclasses Bowsers do to his disjoints on the ground, you just have to take a little extra space then you would against most of the cast. His improved reach on nair make it easier to sheild poke the big brute then ever, not to mention put together strings. Pit also gets pretty solid combos on the guy at lower percents, and can otherwise rack damage pretty easily. He can camp and gimp bowser better the most characters too. The important thing is to keep playing safe, not get baited into something with super armor, because he still hits hard. A conservative Pit will give bowser a lot of trouble.

?

Can't say, not enough experience to hazard a guess.

=<

This match is very close to even, but might shift more towards Pit's favor in the future as Duck Hunt becomes more well known/understood. Duck Hunt out camps/zones Pit at any respectable distance, but up close Pit has a distinct advantage, as the only disjoint Duck Hunt has that competes with Pits Ftlit/FSmash is his own forward smash, which is much slower and only will work on a read. Their aireals are both quick though so it feels even there. The biggest thing though is how horrible Pit Gimps DH. If you knock him off stage as Pit, the odds of him getting back are low.

?

Feels evenish, but can't say I've played it enough. Though Falcos Reflector is an annoying midrange tool.

=

Pit has to play very defensively on the ground, and is looking to get a quick Dtilit or Jab for a pop up or a shield grab for throwing him off/damage racking combo. Little Mac is much more dangerous then pit on the ground, but Pit is quick enough to disrupt it on a decent read outside of LMs jab and KO punch. As soon as LM gets toward 70%, Upperdash arm becomes a serious way to disrupt LM and keep him skyward. A little mac off stage against Pit might as well be dead.

>

Gag. Outside of an early gimp or a solidly placed FSmash, Lucario is going to have a full Aura on Pit. Sure, Pit will damage rack like a boss against him at first with Lucario having weak disjoints and punishes, but once he approaches 80-90%, that almost instantly dissapears and its all down hill from their. Pit can no longer out space him with tilts, doesn't trade well anymore, and loses most of the gimping potential he has on the pokemon.

?

No clue.

=<

This match is close to even, but if anything a slight advantage to Pit. Honestly not much has changed in the matchup between the pair. Pit can camp Ness, as down B isnt much of a deterient (curve the arrows before impact,) Mid range is a bit dicer, as PK Fire is a decent spacing tool/annoyance, but Pit's Ftlit is equally so, a PK fire more punishable. They rack damage on each other solidly. What makes the match lean towards Pit is gimping, as Ness is still quite vulnerable to it and Pit's new Orbitors take out the guesswork in deflecting PK Thunder offstage.

?

Not enough data, but I'd lean towards equal.

>

Pits strong nuetral game is completely thrown out of whack, and he is given little room to recover against the space Queen. Pit is great at daamge racking, but lacks the solid hits to easily dispel Luma and his multihits backfire as the stun while each blow is being delievered/blocked give Rosaluma extra time to retaliate. Pit can work around Luma a bit camping wise by either curving arrows or using piercing ones, but the commitment again makes it moderate risk/low reward. In the Air, Rosalina wins so long as her attacks are aimed well. Her disjoints are longer (minus a a well space Pit Fair), even if they dont cover as much area as Pits. The only thing Pit has on this matchup is his gimping game, which is strong enough to threaten her if she gets off stage. IF.

>

While I feel this not as bad as Lucario or Rosaluma, Shiek comfortable outcamps Pit, and makes for some scary punishes/gap closers that Pit has trouble with. Pit's disjoints (pivot that Ftilt!) keep this match from going crazily in her favor, but the speed and safety of her options beat out Pits. She'll win wars of attrition. Pit also doesnt have as much luck gimping her outside of dragging her down with an arrow or a lucky read.

=

This looks similiar to the sheik matchup at first, except with a huge glaring exceptions. The pit player gets to camp. Sonic wants to always approach anyway and does it fast, sure, but his defaults are poor options with Pits disjoints. Playing safely with Pit will yield good results, but sonics speed does lend him that extreme mixup up/punish potential that is extremely dangerous. Pit wins the midrange, and if you throw in customs, Pits down B is now an AOE attack that is pretty good at saying "no" to a lot of sonics options.

?

I've only played meh villagers who made the character feel like a gimmick.

?

My minimal experience makes me want to call evenish, but if there is a slight advantage, it's Yoshis now.

=

I feel these two trade very even in a lot of ways. The have tons of comparable options in nuetral/midrange, with ZSS having either faster options that are shorter then Pits or longer options that arnt as safe. Admidtly my matchup experience is also vague on this one, but my experience has been pretty tit for tat.

 

[PKNintendo]

Robin is bad, dude.

Thoron+ begs to disagree

Plus Nairo and NAKAT have both argued in favor of Robin being pretty good

 

[Conda]

The pit and Dark Pit players STILL don't have a definitive list or idea of the specific differences between them. Meanwhile the sheik and rosa (etc) boards are rocketing forward and the players have much more evolved strategies. The gap is only growing, and it's a problem.

The boards for many characters are way behind those we are currently focused on, which is hurting broad metagame development. The top characters will only become more dominant if the lesser played characters continue to have their metagame development move at a snail's pace. Tournament players who play more popular characters have a wealth of info to develop an advanced and effective playstyle around, making them much more effective than, say, a Falco main. Dark Pit players are still trying to figure out what their differences from Pit imply competitively - nobody cares to talk about it, and players of such characters are essentially in the dark.

It's an uphill battle to even choose a main that nobody cares about, as you've got barely any material to learn from. Meanwhile your opponents who main the characters we care to talk about have guides upon discussions upon more guides.

Does sheik have trouble with Ness? Don't worry, there's likely a thread about it to help you solidify your competitive play.
Does Samus have trouble with Ness? Tough luck, nobody cares to talk about it. Thus a sheik player fighting a Ness at a tournament has much more to draw from compared to a Samus player.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Robin is good! Not top-tier material perhaps but Leven aerials and Thoron+ are just super-nasty.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth forum only forum with full frame data.

Your metas are clearly lagging behind us.

STOP LAGGIN NOOBS!!!

 

[KenMeister]

The pit and Dark Pit players STILL don't have a definitive list or idea of the specific differences between them. Meanwhile the sheik and rosa (etc) boards are rocketing forward and the players have much more evolved strategies. The gap is only growing, and it's a problem.

The boards for many characters are way behind those we are currently focused on, which is hurting broad metagame development. The top characters will only become more dominant if the lesser played characters continue to have their metagame development move at a snail's pace.tournament players who play more popular characters have a wealth of info to develop an advanced and effective playstyle around, meanwhile Dark Pit players are still trying to figure out what their differences from Pit imply competitively - nobody cares to talk about it, and players of such characters are essentially in the dark.

There's value in discussing the full roster. This thread shouldn't be a quest to find the top characters, but a quest to dig deep and find contenders that we may have been ignoring.

If that's the case, shouldn't we just take a break from top tier character discussion in this thread and focus on the characters who haven't had nearly as much discussion, focus on their unique, individual strengths and potential of where they can go with it, rather than saying "this character is inferior to x character in infinite ways, therefore he sucks"? I feel like the same exact thing happened in Brawl too, which caused the metagame to stagnate pretty badly in the oncoming years. Characters like Pit, Sheik, and Lucario (out of many others) either got dropped completely or ignored pretty early on without actually, ya' know, showing what they CAN DO rather than what they can't. I feel like that sort of viewpoint is exactly why Brawl's metagame was constantly bashed on in terms of character diversity, and why people continue to ridicule competitive Brawl players to this day. I'd really like for that not to carry over into Smash 4.

 

[mimgrim]

Well I tried to talk about Weegee. But that didn't seem to go anywhere. :L

Instead of suggesting this thread to actually talk about other characters why not, you know, actually try and talk about other characters.

/CallingyououtConda

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The pit and Dark Pit players STILL don't have a definitive list or idea of the specific differences between them. Meanwhile the sheik and rosa (etc) boards are rocketing forward and the players have much more evolved strategies. The gap is only growing, and it's a problem.

The boards for many characters are way behind those we are currently focused on, which is hurting broad metagame development. The top characters will only become more dominant if the lesser played characters continue to have their metagame development move at a snail's pace. Tournament players who play more popular characters have a wealth of info to develop an advanced and effective playstyle around, making them much more effective than, say, a Falco main. Dark Pit players are still trying to figure out what their differences from Pit imply competitively - nobody cares to talk about it, and players of such characters are essentially in the dark.

It's an uphill battle to even choose a main that nobody cares about, as you've got barely any material to learn from. Meanwhile your opponents who main the characters we care to talk about have guides upon discussions upon more guides.

Does sheik have trouble with Ness? Don't worry, there's likely a thread about it to help you solidify your competitive play.
Does Samus have trouble with Ness? Tough luck, nobody cares to talk about it. Thus a sheik player fighting a Ness at a tournament has much more to draw from compared to a Samus player.

It is a problem, look at Mii swordfighter boards I believe no one has posted there in a *week*.
Mii Gunner since last weekend. Its astonishing.

If that's the case, shouldn't we just take a break from top tier character discussion in this thread and focus on the characters who haven't had nearly as much discussion, focus on their unique, individual strengths and potential of where they can go with it, rather than saying "this character is inferior to x character in infinite ways, therefore he sucks"? I feel like the same exact thing happened in Brawl too, which caused the metagame to stagnate pretty badly in the oncoming years. Characters like Pit, Sheik, and Lucario (out of many others) either got dropped completely or ignored pretty early on without actually, ya' know, showing what they CAN DO rather than what they can't. I feel like that sort of viewpoint is exactly why Brawl's metagame was constantly bashed on in terms of character diversity, and why people continue to ridicule competitive Brawl players to this day. I'd really like for that not to carry over into Smash 4.

Bro, ive brought up Shulk, Mii Brawler, Kirby, very little discussion coming back.
If you want a discussion bring up Mario and you'll get 3 pages I promise.


Almost everything in this thread I try to look into. We had Kongs Cyclone brought up, immediately went in Classic and unlocked it. It is an interesting ability. I think you can command grab it out or just space it with a retreating Sword hit like Marths F-air (more prominent on Wii U) as far as commentary about it being hard to deal with.

Even still shaya (not so subtlety?) redirected some discussion to other characters with his/her list.Of course it got misconstrued at one point to be a top 15 list.

If I had homework I could give anyone It's to check out
Gunner,Brawler,Kirby, Charizard,Paletuna and sit with them.

 

[Conda]

Well I tried to talk about Weegee. But that didn't seem to go anywhere. :L

Instead of suggesting this thread to actually talk about other characters why not, you know, actually try and talk about other characters.

/CallingyououtConda

This isn't about me, it's about discussion in general. And not even just this thread - the character specific us forums are very slow/dead for many characters. I've been active in many of them to try and stir discussion, similar to in this thread (I've posted about falco, samus, tlink, bowser jr, marth, fox, mega man, etc here).

My point is that we have to keep in mind that some characters are going to be performing poorly not just because "they're lower tier", but because those who play certain characters have such a smaller amount of resources to learn from.

A sheik could improve their matchup vs rosalina through multiple resources and videos and discussions, but a DH/miigunner/samus/pit player doesn't have those things. Especially not discussion. That is a bigger deal and has a more prominent effect than we may be acknowledging. It is effecting our perception of the metagame, and it's a problem.

So we have to take Metagame Development into consideration when looking at tournament results, discussion, and impressions. And we have to try and prevent characters from being ignored, as I and some others here have been doing. If we keep the same ten characters in the discussion loop, then their metas will continue to develop at a much greater pace than other characters, furthering the divide between character performance levels at tournaments.

If we cannot prevent this from happening, then we have to acknowledge it at the least and stop acting as if the non-top-ten are boring and not a threat. Logically, focusing on a specific subset of the roster result in those characters having the most advanced, matured, and threatening metagames.

We have to be aware of this, and not assume certain characters are great just due to design and not also metagame advances that other characters don't have the luxury of having.

 

[Terotrous]

It is a problem, look at Mii swordfighter boards I believe no one has posted there in a *week*.
Mii Gunner since last weekend. Its astonishing.

Blame Sakurai. The fact that Miis aren't allowed at all with customizations off is peerlessly stupid. Clearly they should have allowed you to play as the promotional Miis with their terrible 1111 sets at the very least.

Really, though, it never should have been possible to turn custom moves off, period. They're supposed to be a big part of the game so they should have gone all in and made them the standard. It should be custom equipment that you can enable or disable.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm just gonna say that Peach is seriously good in this game. A lot of people don't really know what she is seriously about cause people find it too hard to use her well in the 3ds. And most are running to characters that are easier to use and win with. She goes around being really technical once again in this game. And its a must to have a strong neutral game, spacing and not having people just run in attacking you and hitting you for free. She is really hard. But once you point in the practice with her in the lab for hours and get this all down, destruction. And can handle a lot of crap this game/character has.

I don't know where I would but her since I wanna fight characters at high level and know my options from both says to get a good understanding of a match up. Anything below that is just assuming based on limited experience. Which I try to sat away from. But If I had to put something down until I can get a final word on high level experience, I say she is seriously top ten without a doubt. And a possible top 5.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

You know I just had a bit of a brainwave regarding Shulk. As I main him I love playing him but I've figured out his main weakness and the reason I think he'll sit low-middle tier. I think his biggest flaw is the lack of ability to pressure shields. Unlike the top-tiers this game in Rosaluma, Shiek and Greninja who all have long-ranged or safe shield pressure with Luma, Bouncing Fish/Needles and Dair/Shuriken respectively Shulk lacks any projectiles and has the slow animations to make him very vulnerable on block. His only real tool against shields, in my opinion, is Monado Speed pivot grab. Otherwise, it's too dangerous on block to consider harassment.

The counter to this argument is that most Shulks, myself included, choose to play Speed from the get-go and leave Buster for racking up the damage once you've got them in the air or making mistakes. The point still stands, though, and I think this is why he won't get much favour.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Blame Sakurai. The fact that Miis aren't allowed at all with customizations off is peerlessly stupid. Clearly they should have allowed you to play as the promotional Miis with their terrible 1111 sets at the very least.

Really, though, it never should have been possible to turn custom moves off, period. They're supposed to be a big part of the game so they should have gone all in and made them the standard. It should be custom equipment that you can enable or disable.

You can play em everywhere basically except For Glory. So basically so long as people don't limit themselves (as no one is restricted) to just random 1v1's they can eventually accumulate Mii experience, but part of that relies on their being Mii players to begin with, If the forum is anything to go by, there really aren't a lot outside of Brawler. Partially because Brawler receives praise.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If that's the case, shouldn't we just take a break from top tier character discussion in this thread and focus on the characters who haven't had nearly as much discussion, focus on their unique, individual strengths and potential of where they can go with it, rather than saying "this character is inferior to x character in infinite ways, therefore he sucks"? I feel like the same exact thing happened in Brawl too, which caused the metagame to stagnate pretty badly in the oncoming years. Characters like Pit, Sheik, and Lucario (out of many others) either got dropped completely or ignored pretty early on without actually, ya' know, showing what they CAN DO rather than what they can't. I feel like that sort of viewpoint is exactly why Brawl's metagame was constantly bashed on in terms of character diversity, and why people continue to ridicule competitive Brawl players to this day. I'd really like for that not to carry over into Smash 4.

Lol.

Looooool.

Stop plz. Competitive brawl is jokes because of ice climbers and metaknight.

Not because certain characters didn't get developed.

 

[Kofu]

Marth forum only forum with full frame data.

Your metas are clearly lagging behind us.

STOP LAGGIN NOOBS!!!

http://smashboards.com/threads/villager-frame-data.369088/#post-17853931

Villager has almost all with the exception of customs. And we've got a whole bunch more weird stuff to catalogue than your boring sword attacks.

Don't be hatin'.

 

[Terotrous]

You can play em everywhere basically except For Glory.

As long as customs are turned on. If customs are off, no Miis. And a lot of people and tournaments are using customs off, basically just because they can.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If the Marth boards ever put in the time and effort into gitting gud instead of dissecting the game and 10k word essays on Jab, they'd be the gods they always put Marth out to be.

Jokes aside, how did the Marth boards do their frame data for now until a program is made. (or maybe even Brawl's program working for Smash4?)

 

[Jabejazz]

Jokes aside, how did the Marth boards do their frame data for now until a program is made. (or maybe even Brawl's program working for Smash4?)

Seconded, I'd gladly do my board's frame data. No actual idea how to do it, however.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Thoron+ begs to disagree

Plus Nairo and NAKAT have both argued in favor of Robin being pretty good

Neither means much tbh. Thoron+ is a good move but doesn't change the fact that Robin is a fundamentally flawed character with massive holes in his design. Nairo consistently placing below his own standards kinda proves the point - like, how can a man of his skill place outside of top 3 in his region with such consistency? That's not coincidence.

 

[popsofctown]

As long as customs are turned on. If customs are off, no Miis. And a lot of people and tournaments are using customs off, basically just because they can.

No, this isn't true. In local wireless and friend code play, you can play Miis even with customizations turned off. You can even use builds besides 1111 with customization turned off.

 

[Terotrous]

No, this isn't true. In local wireless and friend code play, you can play Miis even with customizations turned off. You can even use builds besides 1111 with customization turned off.

Interesting. That's something, at least.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm just gonna say that Peach is seriously good in this game. A lot of people don't really know what she is seriously about cause people find it too hard to use her well in the 3ds. And most are running to characters that are easier to use and win with. She goes around being really technical once again in this game. And its a must to have a strong neutral game, spacing and not having people just run in attacking you and hitting you for free. She is really hard. But once you point in the practice with her in the lab for hours and get this all down, destruction. And can handle a lot of crap this game/character has.

I don't know where I would but her since I wanna fight characters at high level and know my options from both says to get a good understanding of a match up. Anything below that is just assuming based on limited experience. Which I try to sat away from. But If I had to put something down until I can get a final word on high level experience, I say she is seriously top ten without a doubt. And a possible top 5.

I'm gonna just say...top 10 is stretching it when there's other nonsense characters who have better mobility than she does. But yeah, Brawl top tiers getting nerfed and Peach mostly staying the same makes her one of the stronger characters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Seconded, I'd gladly do my board's frame data. No actual idea how to do it, however.

My 3DS is modded for video out. I just recorded at 60 FPS and then counted the frames. I slowed down the footage in post for the .gif images.

Here's one way.

Smooth Criminal

 

[NAKAT]

Everything is opinionated you just have to believe what you want and let the results do the talking. However I do feel like players who attend offline events/are the best with their main or close/ top players, etc hold a lot more weight then those don't.

Like I'd honestly listen to someone godlike with a certain character over someone who hasn't done anything besides post.

But that of course is another opinion.

I think Robin is the hardest possible top 10 character to use. Also results at the moment show Robin doing very well in tristate and West Coast

Neither means much tbh. Thoron+ is a good move but doesn't change the fact that Robin is a fundamentally flawed character with massive holes in his design. Nairo consistently placing below his own standards kinda proves the point - like, how can a man of his skill place outside of top 3 in his region with such consistency? That's not coincidence.

Players are prone to getting gimmicked and beaten still this early. It's really difficult to hold consistentcy atm

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Neither means much tbh. Thoron+ is a good move but doesn't change the fact that Robin is a fundamentally flawed character with massive holes in his design. Nairo consistently placing below his own standards kinda proves the point - like, how can a man of his skill place outside of top 3 in his region with such consistency? That's not coincidence.

yeah, you're right, not coincidence. but you might be drawing the wrong conclusion

 

[The Seventh One]

I bet you guys never faced and will never have to face

 

[Nairo]

Robins the hardest character to use on the 3DS especially with tap jump imo on due to how to levin sword works in the air and how quick i have to be in doing the inputs quickly to get out the bronze sword and sometimes it ends up being a BS upair fair etc. I've lost many sets due to stuff like that (but no johns of course) but I can say for sure itll be easier on wii u (unless the cstick doesnt pull out the levin sword which would dumb if so) also the worst placing ive gotten is 4th which isnt bad but I can do better but we will see soon once the wii u version comes out. Robin aint bad people sleeping on her way too soon its too soon to say any character is bad still imo but no matter wat she aint a buffed ganon lmao

 

[L9L]

Qusetion is, are you really willing to give up the offensive utility
of default cyclone?

That's really the question. Default cyclone has equal or better applications then previous iterations of the move, and I think its potential is too great to give up for better recovery, even considering Luigi's below average recovery. Short hop over projectiles into cyclone can give Luigi a quick, powerful way to close the gap and start a juggle. It's one of Luigi's faster options for getting in.

Personally, I favor ice or default fireballs, straight missile, and default jump punch and cyclone on my Luigi. But Luigi is a character that still has a lot of room for creative growth, so I could see my opinion changing over time.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Dark Pit players are still trying to figure out what their differences from Pit imply competitively - nobody cares to talk about it, and players of such characters are essentially in the dark.

For what it's worth, I find the lack of curving on Dark Pit's arrows helps with making some precise shots (though it could be the circle pad making it hard to aim with Pit's bow lolz). Like if I'm against a (Toon) Link player, I shoot the arrow then arc it up or down so it just misses their Hylian Shield and hits them in the face/feet.

 

[Signia]

are looking like the undisputed top 8 right now (no particular order). There's not a whole lot of room to speculate on the top 10. If you want to claim Peach or Robin is in the top 10 (or possibly in the top 5? rofl) you should probably think about what you're claiming -- that those characters are better than some of the many known threats or other top 10 contenders, like

 

[mimgrim]

If you are using Luigi Cyclone to approach or just in neutral in general... then ew. The move is very streamlined, makes it predictable, and rather laggy, easy to punish. It's a horrible offensive tool. And if you are using it as such. Ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew. It's potential is pretty bad. At least Mach Cyclone has sheer vertical distance, you can follow your opponent down to the very floor of the stage and still make it back.

Quick Missile seems just as strong as Green Missile, or at least not that much weaker, while being faster and having more distance. It's better punish move for punishing an opponent a fair distance away because uncharged will travel about half of FD, charged travels well over all of FD and it still misfires. I see no reason not to use it over Green Missile.

SJP is pretty much the best Uspecial. Burial Header is pretty bad in general and FJP would be better if the critical hit wasn't weakened so much.

As for his neutrals. They're all pretty bad. Iceball has it niche though.

 

[PKNintendo]

Neither means much tbh. Thoron+ is a good move but doesn't change the fact that Robin is a fundamentally flawed character with massive holes in his design. Nairo consistently placing below his own standards kinda proves the point - like, how can a man of his skill place outside of top 3 in his region with such consistency? That's not coincidence.

You say that but I remain unconvinced. Your logic is flawed, and it doesn't support your argument:

Robin isn't a good character because Nairo isn't consistently placing in top 3?

1. That's a logical fallacy.
2. That isn't even true (he's placed outside of top 3 twice, out of 9 tournaments) Nairo being able to consistently place that high, is a point in Robin's favor.

In any case, i'd rather to listen to 2 very good tournament players, than a theorycrafter who narcissistically signs each of his posts.

 

[NAKAT]

are looking like the undisputed top 8 right now (no particular order). There's not a whole lot of room to speculate on the top 10. If you want to claim Peach or Robin is in the top 10 (or possibly in the top 5? rofl) you should probably think about what you're claiming -- that those characters are better than some of the many known threats or other top 10 contenders, like

Mmmmm im inclined to disagree with your order and placements but you are off to a good start.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Mmmmm im inclined to disagree with your order and placements but you are off to a good start.

I'm interested, what are your top/bottom 5 characters in this game? As a pro player who's probably been in more tourneys than at least 75% in this thread ever will, I trust you have a more informed opinion.

 

[Tagxy]

Everyone knowledgeable of the game tends to have valuable input. The biggest issue I have when discussing game mechanics with top level players is they unintentionally have a hard time separating player/competitor elements from game mechanics (i.e. I beat X character with Y therefore Y beats X). Peeps who rely too heavily on theory or dont have enough experience competing on the other hand tend to underplay or misunderstand the player/competitor element itself. Of course these are massive generalizations, everyone's trying their best to create an accurate depiction of the metagame. Ya'll might not always like what each other has to say but writing someone off completely whos put time and effort to understand something sounds more like youre hearing something you dont like. At least make the effort to explain or find an understanding.

Also Marths are just being tryhards no one else wants to put themselves through the torture of finding frame data on 3ds (good job tho).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everything is opinionated you just have to believe what you want and let the results do the talking. However I do feel like players who attend offline events/are the best with their main or close/ top players, etc hold a lot more weight then those don't.

Like I'd honestly listen to someone godlike with a certain character over someone who hasn't done anything besides post.

But that of course is another opinion.

I think Robin is the hardest possible top 10 character to use. Also results at the moment show Robin doing very well in tristate and West Coast

Ah hah, but just because someone is a great player does not make them a scholar of the game either. I have met strong players in many fighters that are not scientists and I have met many that are. Some people are just NOT good at articulating what makes a strong a character strong even though they have won tournaments with said characters. There are many players who just go on instinct and will be quick to tell you they just do what works.

Something to bear in mind. Not every good player is you NAKAT, who can actually explain themselves or makes sense when they do so.

I have met top players that even spouted blatantly incorrect information about characters even when frame data and hitbox data proved their claims false. Player skill bias is real. It's important to not let it be the end all be all. Especially if someone has huge insight on a character and what they say has merit.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm gonna just say...top 10 is stretching it when there's other nonsense characters who have better mobility than she does. But yeah, Brawl top tiers getting nerfed and Peach mostly staying the same makes her one of the stronger characters.

Speed isn't everything. (though she canbe fast with good use of QFR (Quick float release)

Also she did not remain the same as Brawl. You have to play her in a different way and she is better in this game then she is in brawl. And she has options to deal with a lot of stuff you might not be aware of.