Character Competitive Impressions

[Tagxy]

People have to not worry so much about some arbitrary "top 10" thing. The drop off might happen after top 6 or top 15 who knows. You should find a way to better articulate how good your character is.

 

[AvariceX]

I have met top players that even spouted blatantly incorrect information about characters even when frame data and hitbox data proved their claims false. Player skill bias is real. It's important to not let it be the end all be all. Especially if someone has huge insight on a character and what they say has merit.

Justin Wong still thinks Zero's lightning doesn't scale -_-. It scales, Zero just has a really dumb minimum scaled special damage of 30%

Just out of curiosity and to stay on topic, what's the word on Link lately? I've seen lots of discussion on TL but nothing on Link recently. The demo made him seem pretty good in comparison to what was available (Pikachu would get more fleshed out later), but I'm wondering if he fell off a bit when the shiny new characters showed up. My first impression of him was he could be a contender for high/mid (I don't really want to talk about tiers though) but I feel like this game just has so many really good characters that he gets outshone by them even if he's not much worse. Are there any Link mains making noise in tournament?

And yeah top 10 top 5 whatever doesn't really mean anything yet. Nothing is undisputed at this point, new tech is still being found literally everyday.

 

[Jabejazz]

Here's one way.

Smooth Criminal

Just gotta find how to exactly do that.
Some google results lead to more or less sketchy websites. Haven't seen websites this ugly since geocities, to be frank.

 

[deepseadiva]

Characters that could win a local tournament:
probably everyone

Characters that could win a regional:


Characters that could win a national:


I think that's a lot of viability personally.

 

[MisterVisceral]

Characters that could win a local tournament:
probably everyone

Characters that could win a regional:


Characters that could win a national:


I think that's a lot of viability personally.

So you consider
all to be above ?

Interesting.

 

[Dark.Pch]

People have to not worry so much about some arbitrary "top 10" thing. The drop off might happen after top 6 or top 15 who knows. You should find a way to better articulate how good your character is.

I have through many write ups and explanations with Peach. But since everyone is on this hype train I thought I share my thoughts on it. But as I said in my post, I hate doing stuff like that with numbers and not experiencing every character at high level and both players fully understanding their options. That's how a match up really shows who wins/loses/even. Thus showing the chances of a character taking a tourney.

 

[ChampKing]

Characters that could win a local tournament:
probably everyone

Characters that could win a regional:


Characters that could win a national:


I think that's a lot of viability personally.

That's a weird list. Especially with the disturbing lack of Mac, Pikachu, Jigglypuff and Falcon.

 

[deepseadiva]

I do not think those characters could win something entirely on their own.

Especially Mac.

 

[Tagxy]

lol, Meno thats a weird list. Glad its different than the typical stuff, you should explain it though especially the more controversial picks.

I have through many write ups and explanations with Peach. But since everyone is on this hype train I thought I share my thoughts on it. But as I said in my post, I hate doing stuff like that with numbers and not experiencing every character at high level and both players fully understanding their options. That's how a match up really shows who wins/loses/even. Thus showing the chances of a character taking a tourney.

Well slayers has been doing really well on the west coast. He got first and second at two tournaments recently, the tournament he lost was close sets vs Tyrants diddy I believe. In any case, the common perception I seem to get from people is to think peach is good and potentially great.

 

[Luigi player]

Characters that could win a local tournament:
probably everyone

Characters that could win a regional:


Characters that could win a national:


I think that's a lot of viability personally.

Poor Diddy.

 

[deepseadiva]

It's a very simple impression, and I'm sure everyone will have their own. Who is decent enough to defeat top players from several states? And then who are the cream of the crop of those characters that could defeat the top players from several countries?

Rather than thinking about Bowser's matchup with Yoshi or whatever.

 

[Dark.Pch]

In any case, the common perception I seem to get from people is to think peach is good and potentially great.

She is. If he is doing work over there and I been explaining all the stuff she can do here, I think that is enough to make that a legit statement.

 

[Conda]

I think we could use some guidance to help focus discussion in this thread to characters that we generally don't focus on as much as others. This would help us talk about a wider array of characters in depth and critically, and not simply say our first impressions and move on. We will all gain a better understanding of the game as a result.

The character forums for these characters may be very slow, their metagames may be under-developed, or they could simply be not understood completely. These are characters that could use the discussion and metagame conversation to help their potential be realised.

Feel free to discuss these characters for a few pages in-depth and critically, and discuss their actual competitive potential. Remember - to keep this discussion healthy and helpful to fellow posters and readers, we have to focus on Smash 4 itself. Focusing on nerfs or buffs aren't what is important and are part of what have prevented certain characters from being taken seriously enough to be discussed (ie Falco and MK).

Also, even if a character bores you, that doesn't mean a characters' meta is deserving of being underdeveloped and undiscussed. Discussing the game intelligently is interesting and helpful to us as well as readers who are trying to learn a thing or two.

So let's start with talking about these guys:
DK
Luigi
Duck Hunt

Do not worry about talking about tiers or whether or nor they are in the 'top 10'. Discuss their tools and metagame potential, as this is the kind of in-depth discussion many characters need right now to grow.

 

[L9L]

If you are using Luigi Cyclone to approach or just in neutral in general... then ew. The move is very streamlined, makes it predictable, and rather laggy, easy to punish. It's a horrible offensive tool. And if you are using it as such. Ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew. It's potential is pretty bad. At least Mach Cyclone has sheer vertical distance, you can follow your opponent down to the very floor of the stage and still make it back.

Quick Missile seems just as strong as Green Missile, or at least not that much weaker, while being faster and having more distance. It's better punish move for punishing an opponent a fair distance away because uncharged will travel about half of FD, charged travels well over all of FD and it still misfires. I see no reason not to use it over Green Missile.

SJP is pretty much the best Uspecial. Burial Header is pretty bad in general and FJP would be better if the critical hit wasn't weakened so much.

As for his neutrals. They're all pretty bad. Iceball has it niche though.

I don't disagree with mach cyclone's potential for chasing off stage, but I'd disagree that default cyclone is as bad as you're making it out to be. Streamlined, yes. Laggy, definitely. If used in neutral simply to skim along the ground and hoping your opponent forgets to shield, you'll get bopped. But it can be used to punish projectile-happy opponents or to whiff punish. Plus it can KO off the top if you use it to rise up into opponent. Not a top-tier move by any means, but you take what you can with Luigi and it's just one more tool for his kit. Not that I'd disagree if somebody was using mach cyclone over it.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Hey gaiz i been wondrin what's mewtwo like will he be aaa+s+ tier or wat

Just kiddin.

Tink is good but not spectacular. I think Link is superior cause of extra weight and better kill power. Extra speed and better aerials are a nice bonus though, so I'd only put him a slot or two beneath Link.

DK is crap imo. Slow, heavy and suffering all the problems he had in Melee/Brawl save some interesting customs which I'll admit I haven't played around with, but I don't think they're going to save him from the lower tiers cause he's just a Bowser with clunkier animations.

I'm very much an outspoken hater of Luigi. I think he's one of the worst characters in the game cause of the very insubstantial changes he received compared to most of the other characters, especially regarding his terrible recovery.

DHD is fun to play but I think his playstyle will have to change almost all the time during the meta's evolution cause people will figure out ways to counter his games every time he's played. Fortunately his customs allow him to have the fluidity to change without becoming radically different and I think that's why he's top 15.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm very much an outspoken hater of Luigi. I think he's one of the worst characters in the game cause of the very insubstantial changes he received compared to most of the other characters, especially regarding his terrible recovery.

Luigi isn't complete crap for one reason. Fireballs.

Seriously man, that nonsense is almost as good as ZSS Paralyzer. Minus the reliable followups obviously, but for pure control in midrange? Luigi's Fireball is surprisingly effective. Forces you to slow down a lot and lets him actually try to fight you.

But yeah he's mostly not that good. He does do insane damage per hit and has aforementioned fireballs though.

 

[deepseadiva]

Projectile Tier List
Needles
...
Paralyzer
...
That little twig that comes out of Villager's tree
...
...
...
..
.
Fireballs

 

[Jabejazz]

Luigi's fireballs are actually stupidly legit.

 

[NAKAT]

I'm interested, what are your top/bottom 5 characters in this game? As a pro player who's probably been in more tourneys than at least 75% in this thread ever will, I trust you have a more informed opinion.

I am in an invitational event atm. I will post once I am done. This post is a placeholder.

 

[Conda]

I am in an invitational event atm. I will post once I am done. This post is a placeholder.

Should be interesting. We've had almost nothing but 'top 5/10' discussion here, but hopefully you'll shed light on things that can get us talking constructively about characters who never get spoken about in depth, and whose character subforums are dead due to lack of popularity.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Luigi isn't complete crap for one reason. Fireballs.

Seriously man, that nonsense is almost as good as ZSS Paralyzer. Minus the reliable followups obviously, but for pure control in midrange? Luigi's Fireball is surprisingly effective. Forces you to slow down a lot and lets him actually try to fight you.

But yeah he's mostly not that good. He does do insane damage per hit and has aforementioned fireballs though.

I don't think any characters in this game are complete crap aside from Olimar, and even he has one or two useful tools. Heck, even Mii Swordsman has good damage racking and decent range.

This brings me to an idea I wanted to throw in here - instead of ranking with tiers, I wanna just rank with overall strength with three categories: strong, medium, subpar and with no real order to it all so it's just a generalized categorisation that over time can be built upon.

So I'll throw my idea in here and as I said in no particular order:
STRONG
MEDIUM
SUBPAR

Instead of the challenges of making a full community list, why not just use a model like this where strong gets assigned 1 point, medium 2 and subpar 3 then take a bunch of averages to find which rest in each bracket. Then it's much easier to form organised discussions.

 

[Gea]

I've actually been playing quite a bit of DK. I'm unsure where he really falls on the spectrum in the tier list, but...

DK suffers pretty badly from his lack of disjoints in this game. You can trade with some pretty dumb stuff. Spaced bair tapping a tiny bit too low on Link's side as Link dairs can beat it. This type of crap means DK has to be overly aware and conscious of anything he throws out. Hell, he can be punished for ftilting a shield when it's spaced. Against DDD, DK will often trade with the gordo and take damage while reflecting it with a tilt.

Additionally, counters that mutliply knockback can stupidly wreck DK. Shulk can basically 1 hit KO DK if he counters a Donkey Punch, making DK have to be far more careful with using his good tools. Ontop of other bad things, DK still suffers from being juggle bait and easily harassed when recovering by characters with good dairs. Side B can break anything that isn't a full shield, which sounds way more useful than it is. Unfortunately, landing side B rarely gets a big payoff. The problem is that you basically need a hard read for the chance at either a shieldbreak or if they get grounded, % but not death. A shame you can't really predict when they will pop out.

DK also gets hurt (though likely helped more) with the "can't regrab for ____ time" because it takes away regrab frametraps.


That said, he has some very useful tools, customs or not. Even regular spinning kong can force lots of characters to respect pressuring him or being overly aggressive on the ground. Down B, while definitely being too slow for things like being a consistent counter for dash-ins, is an excellent move for spacing pokes, anti-rolling, can pop shields under certain circumstances and followup after dtilt trip. Donkey Punch gets SA, though lots of moves can eat through the super armor. It's still his best kill option and a solid option against low % aggro characters as well. He has one of the more useful jabs since jab 1 sucks them towards you.

His bthrow can eventually kill alright. His utilt and uair are both pretty amazing. He can edgeguard better than he really has any right to. Nair is now an incredible utility aerial for him. If he actually lands a fair spike, it's death for them pretty much. His new dash attack is definitely more useful than his old one, and the low platforms on stages help him control space a little bit better without having to extend himself with a jump.

Ultimately I think his tools are cohesive enough to be a solid threat. The existing problem with DK that has pretty much always been the problem with DK is that he requires consistently outreading the opponent in order to utilize several of his tools (like groundpound) effectively. I feel like one cannot scrape by with smart options while being overwhelmed. DK either holds some control of the match or gets trounced on.

That sounded more negative than I wanted it to, and while it is tough for me to say, "DK cleanly beats ___ character" about anyone, I think his MUs aren't THAT bad. Oh, and DK vs Mac is hilarious. HILARIOUS. Really shows off his tools well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The pits are as strong as marth. They just dont kill as well. That neutral game though

 

[meleebrawler]

That's really the question. Default cyclone has equal or better applications then previous iterations of the move, and I think its potential is too great to give up for better recovery, even considering Luigi's below average recovery. Short hop over projectiles into cyclone can give Luigi a quick, powerful way to close the gap and start a juggle. It's one of Luigi's faster options for getting in.

Personally, I favor ice or default fireballs, straight missile, and default jump punch and cyclone on my Luigi. But Luigi is a character that still has a lot of room for creative growth, so I could see my opinion changing over time.

Well, here's some food for thought.

You can try combining Mach Cyclone with bouncing fireballs for a
real good arc. Couple this with the Burial Header, which allows
Luigi to descend rapidly (helping him get out of juggles), and Luigi
can be quite aggravating to hit, especially when edge-cancelling the header.
(Though it also helps that header has the fastest landing recovery of all
three.)

 

[PK Gaming]

The pits are as strong as marth. They just dont kill as well. That neutral game though

Pit's neutral game is top class. His roll/spotdodge roll is mad stupid as well.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Shulk can KO everyone if they try to hit him with something potent. Its not DK exclusive, his counter is ridic.

Played with Luigi a bit not too much of a fan, customs help out quite a bit I feel as they bring in the alternative recoveries which give him the staying power he searches for. Dthrow is sweet provides set-up for quite a long time.
I don't see him going very far in a custom-off metagame, and with them on Im still not valuing his tools.
Nothing about Weegee has really struck. Actually im kind of sugar-coating it. I really don't find Luigi to be a positive force. His dash attack is balls whoever said it was good ****ing lied

Pits coming off really well, just wish there was less lag on the Orbitars, but Im thinking of replacing them for damage orbiters anyways.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Shulk's counter is hilarious. I wish I'd seen my face the first time I discovered it's unblockable... oops.

 

[Gea]

I wasn't exaggerating when I said he can kill DK at 0% though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have to wonder how characters without reflectors are supposed to work around Duck Hunt's projectiles. Between the can, the clay pigeon, and the gunman, he can cover a lot of different angles, and his control over the can and clay pigeon in particular means he can mix up the danger zone on the fly. Trying to fight through that as, say, Marth sounds really annoying.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Working around DHD's projectiles as Zard is annoying but it doesn't even come close to how badly Villager can harass him with Counter Sapling, rockets, and well placed slingshots.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

I have to wonder how characters without reflectors are supposed to work around Duck Hunt's projectiles. Between the can, the clay pigeon, and the gunman, he can cover a lot of different angles, and his control over the can and clay pigeon in particular means he can mix up the danger zone on the fly. Trying to fight through that as, say, Marth sounds really annoying.

It's not applicable to all characters by any means but Shulk's smashes and Back Slash knock the can reasonable distances, especially when in the air. The Clay Pigeon is a bit harder but because it doesn't have a high arc (unless you have that wacky custom) you can jump over it with most characters or do one of those fancy airdodgeaerials.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Funny. Cuz nakat fought false in that match a few weeks back. Nakat did exactly what marth has been doing since melee. Took his time. Blocked correctly. Didnt use his face to kiss projectiles. Cut through gunmen and cans. Made DHD pay the price when he got in.

People tried to say marth couldnt handle projectile users in brawl but it was disproven quickly. He has the tools to handle any match.

The key is not to be stupid

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Funny. Cuz nakat fought false in that match a few weeks back. Nakat did exactly what marth has been doing since melee. Took his time. Blocked correctly. Didnt use his face to kiss projectiles. Cut through gunmen and cans. Made DHD pay the price when he got in.

People tried to say marth couldnt handle projectile users in brawl but it was disproven quickly. He has the tools to handle any match.

The key is not to be stupid

I haven't seen this match, it sounds interesting. Got a link?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I have to wonder how characters without reflectors are supposed to work around Duck Hunt's projectiles. Between the can, the clay pigeon, and the gunman, he can cover a lot of different angles, and his control over the can and clay pigeon in particular means he can mix up the danger zone on the fly. Trying to fight through that as, say, Marth sounds really annoying.

Don't even feel like I have to approach against Duck Hunt.
Legit have just watched Duck Hunts try to camp...then change their mind cus his projectile game doesn't really do anything.
Just walk and shield. Link forces approaches better than Dunk Hunt as far as I've experienced.
Like the only time DH's projectiles are worth a damn really to me are edgeguarding and if you try to rush him, so don't rush him? Or if you are, use priority to cancel them out.

 

[PKNintendo]

Man, that Robin. Such a bad character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I haven't seen this match, it sounds interesting. Got a link?

Nah it was at a local. Wasnt streamed

 

[Tagxy]

Yeah this event definitely eye opening for certain characters. ROB looking smooth, Donkey Kong looks good in some circumstances, and my goodness Robin's shield pressure is better than most melee characters.

 

[NAKAT]

My Top 5

My bottom 5

The rest of top 10

No order and just my opinion =)

 

[g0rilla]

Nakat, what makes Ness better than Yoshi, Greninja, Fox etc.?

 

[deepseadiva]

Bthrow probably.

And the lack of Brawl Marth. xD