Character Competitive Impressions

[bc1910]

It's possible for Pac to only lose to two chars and still have no results. Greninja only loses to 2 or 3 and has no results. The issue with both characters lies in their lack of polarising winning MUs against popular tournament picks. They don't have win buttons in neutral like most of the top tiers. It hurts them because even though they don't outright lose to many characters there are just too many even MUs in which they have to outplay their opponents.

 

[FullMoon]

Going on the above, what top tier character does Pac-Man actually beat?

 

[Luco]

Sorry to always compare this to him, but Ness doesn't either and right now Shaky's in top 8 in CEO - at best we have a +1 against Mario, Falcon, ZSS and maybe Pika, even then those are contentious and most of the time we're trying to outplay our opponent as well.

I dunnooo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He camps the living **** out of Luigi.

Though I don't actually think Luigi is top tier.

 

[Luco]

By the way, I was on a hike recently and I was thinking about some stuff.

Back in the days when everyone was sorting out roughly where they thought they were pre-patches, I remember the cry from a lot of 'low tier characters' (thought of as such then) were "Our character is good! We just have to play a bait and punish game!"

And I was thinking, the idea of bait and punish is mostly a concept that's relevant in neutral when both characters have the tools to bait. The idea is to let the opponent over-extend in neutral and punish them for that. But, my thought process went, "well why didn't this stand out more in reality?" And the answer I gradually came up with was that the perceived top tiers of that time (and presumably now) play the bait and punish game far better - bait and punish is in many ways a common aspect of footsies, except that most top tiers can punish better AND minimise their mistakes in neutral, to the point where it's meaningless if that low tier can punish that whiffed Fair when my top tier can do it better AND convert that punish into a 20/30% followup. Furthermore, what's there to punish when a character like Sheik can get away with a well-spaced Fair on shield for free? She doesn't have to commit to anything, so you're not really in a situation to "bait" her in the first place.

And so I was like "basically bait and punish is less exciting to do kinda decently in when most top tiers can and will do it better, and thus the claim isn't particularly outstanding."

I wish I had posted this when I first got back from the hike, my thinking would have been far more coherent but hopefully that kinda gives an idea of what I was thinking.

 

[Nu~]

Going on the above, what top tier character does Pac-Man actually beat?

We lame out Luigi and Ness.
Trampoline is a huge pain to falcon and diddy kong, and we may or may not beat sonic due to how much trampoline screws up his nuetral game.
If you don't have an answer to trampoline and/or hydrant traps, you are gonna have a bad day.

Out of these characters, Ness is the only one we have few results on while we have the most for diddy (pre patch diddy if I might add)

 

[Luco]

Also, CEO top 8 is about to happen. This will be awesome! Can't wait to see how these matches unfold.

 

[bc1910]

Sorry to always compare this to him, but Ness doesn't either and right now Shaky's in top 8 in CEO - at best we have a +1 against Mario, Falcon, ZSS and maybe Pika, even then those are contentious and most of the time we're trying to outplay our opponent as well.

I dunnooo.

That's 4 more +1s than we have.

Not sure what your point is.

Ness has better MUs, proven results and better tools in the current meta. I don't think the level he has to outplay people to win is anywhere near that of Pac and other low high/upper mid tiers. Ness is also easier to use. Not to say he doesn't take skill, he does, but yeah. Proven results > theorycrafting.

 

[Jams.]

Now that it seems generally agreed upon that Fox does not lose more than -1 to Sheik (and is most likely even in practice), what difficult matchups does Fox have? Does he lose anything more than -1?

 

[Luco]

+1's are considered to still be mostly about outplaying your opponent. My point is that Ness has to go through the same process of outplaying the vast majority of the cast. Why, then, does Ness get so many more relevant (often national) results than Pac?

EDIT: I see what you're saying. But then again, IMO better MU spread (only losing to 2 instead of four or 5 characters is massive IMO) should have a massive impact on placing, and disparity in results can only be excused so many times.

 

[Djent]

Top 8 starting now, Nick vs. Larry up first.

Hyppeeee

 

[Nu~]

+1's are considered to still be mostly about outplaying your opponent. My point is that Ness has to go through the same process of outplaying the vast majority of the cast. Why, then, does Ness get so many more relevant (often national) results than Pac?

EDIT: I see what you're saying. But then again, IMO better MU spread (only losing to 2 instead of four or 5 characters is massive IMO) should have a massive impact on placing, and disparity in resultscan only be excused so many times.

Much fewer Pac Man players and Ness has a much easier way to end stocks

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Now that it seems generally agreed upon that Fox does not lose more than -1 to Sheik (and is most likely even in practice), what difficult matchups does Fox have? Does he lose anything more than -1?

Almost everybody seems to think they lose against Fox.

I think Yoshi and Pikachu have an advantage and Sonic, Sheik, Brawler, Ness, Little Mac, Olimar and a bunch of other matchups are even. Luigi might have an advantage against Fox, I dunno yet.

 

[PEPESPAIN]

Ness MU is in our favor too

 

[Djent]

Sounds good.
I'm probably going to be a crazy person and try to flipdtool him off-stage.
good idea Y/N

Y

/hindsight

 

[FullMoon]

+1's are considered to still be mostly about outplaying your opponent. My point is that Ness has to go through the same process of outplaying the vast majority of the cast. Why, then, does Ness get so many more relevant (often national) results than Pac?

Ness has much more reliable tools both for damage racking and killing. He pretty much has the most reliable kill confirm in the game in B-Throw and PK Fire + D-Throw combos do huge amounts of damage that, while not being exactly safe in PK Fire's case, is very good.

Compare to Pac-Man, who struggles to kill and doesn't do that much damage overall (trampoline is annoying yes, but it doesn't do damage by itself) or Greninja, who lacks a good OoS option and has trouble getting in thanks to a lackluster frame data start-up wise.

Ness simply has the better tools with plenty of disjoints and fast hitboxes and high damage output and high KO power. That's why Ness is considered top tier, the only things that keep him tame are his below average mobility, somewhat lackluster range and exploitable recovery which do matter, but are flaws not as glaring as the ones Pac-Man and Greninja have, among others.

 

[bc1910]

+1's are considered to still be mostly about outplaying your opponent. My point is that Ness has to go through the same process of outplaying the vast majority of the cast. Why, then, does Ness get so many more relevant (often national) results than Pac?

EDIT: I see what you're saying. But then again, IMO better MU spread (only losing to 2 instead of four or 5 characters is massive IMO) should have a massive impact on placing, and disparity in results can only be excused so many times.

At high level, +1s (60:40 MUs) are very hard to win for the disadvantaged party. 60:40 is about as bad as you can get without a MU being unwinnable in practice between two good players. So for Ness to have even a few +1s against top tiers makes it much less about outplaying the opponent and gives him a big advantage over high tiers and below.

55:45 is the only form of advantage where outplaying someone is still a large factor for the advantaged party IMO.

I agree though that only losing to a couple of characters is a very important trait.

To touch on what Fullmoon said, I happen to think that Greninja has no glaring flaws that hold him back significantly, but he lacks that constant threat in neutral factor. Any sort of polarising strength. That "jank" factor that every character in the top 8 has. I firmly believe Greninja's future viability will hinge on how we use Hydro Pump, because that move is still pretty stupid actually, but tricky to use and massively unexplored.

 

[Nu~]

Ness has much more reliable tools both for damage racking and killing. He pretty much has the most reliable kill confirm in the game in B-Throw and PK Fire + D-Throw combos do huge amounts of damage that, while not being exactly safe in PK Fire's case, is very good.

Compare to Pac-Man, who struggles to kill and doesn't do that much damage overall (trampoline is annoying yes, but it doesn't do damage by itself) or Greninja, who lacks a good OoS option and has trouble getting in thanks to a lackluster frame data start-up wise.

Ness simply has the better tools with plenty of disjoints and fast hitboxes and high damage output and high KO power. That's why Ness is considered top tier, the only things that keep him tame are his below average mobility, somewhat lackluster range and exploitable recovery which do matter, but are flaws not as glaring as the ones Pac-Man and Greninja have, among others.

When you factor in Z drop combos and fruit shenanigans, Pac-Man does a lot more damage than you would believe. A Galaxian hit by itself can lead to a 40% combo.

 

[Djent]

Surprise! in top 8.

 

[Teshie U]

I think PacMan players overrate how useful their gimmicks are. Trampoline is a momentary obstacle once its set up, but if you stay close to PacMan without overlapping him, you can punish it on reaction and keep the pressure on him.

You can get alot of mileage out of the variety of items, windboxes, unblockables and strong but slow killing blows but when someone is aware of all of these mechanics they can be used against you and/or avoided.

Most characters can just take to the air and then play with better frame data/priority and none of his tricks matter.

 

[Luco]

I believe 55:45 is +1 territory.

So Larry's / combination beat out NRs in the end, but man there was some crazy adapting involved.

And Shaky game 1 beats Dabuz's Rosa :O

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If we take tournament results, matchup estimations and theorycraft into account I think the top 5 should consist of Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu, ZSS and Fox right now [in no particular order]. Sonic might drop out if he continues to get countered by ZSS though the character is still clearly broken by design.

I'm just waiting for somebody who is actually good at the game to show what Yoshi is capable of.

 

[Asdioh]

"I bet Dabuz is gonna adjust and not drop another game to Ness after this"
How right I was o_o

 

[thehard]

Shaky almost made that look easy. Cross-up aerials!

 

[Nu~]

I think PacMan players overrate how useful their gimmicks are. Trampoline is a momentary obstacle once its set up, but if you stay close to PacMan without overlapping him, you can punish it on reaction and keep the pressure on him.

You can get alot of mileage out of the variety of items, windboxes, unblockables and strong but slow killing blows but when someone is aware of all of these mechanics they can be used against you and/or avoided.

Most characters can just take to the air and then play with better frame data/priority and none of his tricks matter.

Maybe it's because they aren't gimmicks. They are all tools. Pac-Man can't be played linearly. Not every trap can be avoided and not every "gimmick" can be predicted.

Whether you know a trampoline exists or not, you have to find a safe way over it. It's easy to say, "stay on top of Pac-Man" but that won't happen in a real match with fruits and hydrants in your face. We won't chase you in the air once you bounce upwards if you have more priority, we'll wait for you to try and land safely on top of us

 

[Luco]

Ahhh shame. Still, good play by Dabuz, and Shaky will sit reasonably happily at 7th with his old team-mate.

Kill power is something that should be factored into MU discussions. You don't just look at a character and say "oh they win at killing so they're going to be an obvious pick for top tier", it's all about perspective. If Pac-man is winning or going even in most MUs there are other factors behind it. Perhaps his ability to control space or force approaches in the way he wants them - but if he's only losing 2 MUs then I honestly think he should be higher than all but like 4 or 5 of the top tiers whether he kills easily or not (I mean, Sheik gets by without reliable kill confirms until post-140%).

We shouldn't be looking at character traits in a vacuum. Ness has fantastic killpower. This is factored into his MU discussions and is shown easily in his matches and their results as a conclusion. If Pacman has these incredible traits that affect his MU ratings, then surely he should be doing better than the characters that have 4 or 5 losing MUs (some of which are, quite frankly, bad). If he's not, then we should question those ratings.

Doing well in 4 or 5 extra MUs but having 3 extra losing MUs (2 of which are possibly in 40:60 territory) should be worse than having the overall more even spread. Please don't get me to explain why.

 

[Vincent21]

Ludicrous.

We saw Sheik, the best character, being beaten by other top tiers. Characters who are nearly as stupid as her.

There is nothing wrong with top tiers having the best chance against Sheik, such is the nature of the beast, but there is no way she will experience a significant tier drop while she continues to dominate low, mid and most high tiers to the point of near-invalidation. From CEO, we have no evidence that anyone besides top tiers and a few select high tiers stand a chance against her (I know a few lower tiers have put up a decent fight elsewhere).

The most important thing to take from CEO is that, as the commentators said, Sheik is not infallible. She is not going to kill character variety completely, and that's good. But no amount of knowledge is going to make this character anything less than top tier in her current build.

I'm really sorry if this comes off as aggressive, I honestly don't mean it like that, and I understand this post might get a frosty reception. I just think you're getting ahead of yourself with this anti-Sheik hype.

No yeah, not only was your post in valid tone, but I was intentionally stirring with that one, as I admitted earlier. Am I'm getting good discussion back, so I regret nothing!

I'm challenging the idea of Sheik having been expected to be a dominating force in this event, and moving forward based on the most likely reason she flunked; Character knowledge. I think some people watching at home were surprised to watch this character be shut out by a now weakened Diddy along with other cast members making for hard games, and that people really don't understand what a big deal it is to have trouble closing the stock. I had a good platform to get people's attention. What can I say?

 

[thehard]

MVD doing stuff with Diddy I've never seen... that half-circle up-b on stage...bizarre but good

 

[DblCrest]

Nairo's Dark pit putting in work...
2 stocked MVD's Diddy even

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm just waiting for somebody who is actually good at the game to show what Yoshi is capable of.

Good luck with that, not gonna happen for a good year most likely. You'll get good Yoshi's, but not national level ones.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Zero doing pretty good againts Pikachu. That Up Air cancel in Final Destination was pretty amazing. That was some greninja stuff :O

And Zero won. Nothing impressive

 

[Luco]

Dat 3rd game comeback. Esam ain't ready to give up yet.

EDIT: Veto that.

 

[DblCrest]

Esam ;.;
Got one game of him off ZeRo atleast.

Now Duck Hunt vs RosaLuma.
This might take a while XD

 

[Spinosaurus]

How's the ZSS vs Sheik matchup?

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think ZSS can win the match. Anyway, Fox vs Pikachu, who do you think will win?

 

[Ikes]

I've been playing a lot of donkey kong lately

would any of you agree that even without customs he could be mid/upper mid tier?

He's got a lot of strong points though I do see some of his big weaknesses like being combo food, a big target, having a poor recovery (though im inclined to partially disagree since it is one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game and DK already has decent aerial mobility)

IDK i just think he's a bit better than he's made out to be.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Livin' like Larry Part 3

Smooth Criminal

 

[hypersonicJD]

Ikes I do agree with you. He can be mid-low tier or mid tier.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sheik and Luigi: So mindless and ez pz that even ESAM has to switch from Pika to Samus while DEHF's play2win mindset is take out fox for Luigi.

 

[Thinkaman]

Guys, ESAM is playing Samus.

What is going on?!?

Edit:

Guys, ESAM is winning with Samus.

What is going on?!?