Character Competitive Impressions

[Diddy Kong]

I think Diddy potentially has the advantage but I don't know what that has to do with what other people think about the character.

I think Diddy has a good advantage yes, Sheik really isn't that hard for Diddy. His F Air beats her aerials, and bananas are about as good at getting stage control as Needles. Plus, Diddy can rank up damage just as fast as Sheik, if not better due to higher %s at individual attacks. A Sheik player isn't often used to being outplayed, and Diddy can just bring that uncomfortable feeling to Sheik unlike anyone else.

 

[Djent]

I still don't think Pika beats Diddy. I think this MU is perpetually overrated by ESAM, while cross-up-roll-UTiltchu is actually even with Sheik at the highest level where needles are more reactable. Mid-level will still go to the ninja.

Even with at top level (IMO):
Loses slightly:
Loses by a lot:

 

[Luco]

Sounds a bit like woes.

How does Lucas's UAir compare to Ness's? I haven't been able to play lately to check but it seemed weaker and with less range.

It's got a lot less range and whiffs very easily. I was hoping to be able to leap around safely with spaced SH Uairs in this game but nope. To be fair though, Ness' Uair is pre-patch Diddy levels of arc, so it's definitely going to pale in comparison. In the words of Mik! "his headbutt is a Nair in disguise lol. I've hit people below me with that thing."

It's reasonably strong though. PK Hoohah, if the DI is read correctly, should kill most peeps at around the 110-130 range depending on the character.

In regards to and vs , it's a funny thing, but I seem to recall he lost recently to Shaky in a big tournament (or to another Ness main; all I remember is that we all heard about it and were wondering whether ZSS is ever so slightly in our favour - be aware that we were having these thoughts before that point). Bowser also doesn't do badly against Ness. Like, quite a few Ness mains think Bowser v Ness is even. So that might explain why he tried it.

I haven't seen the set though, I'll need to go and watch it.

We think Diddy is even or in our favour now iirc (most think it's even I think?)

 

[Cassio]

People thought diddy was a lot worse for the same reason they overrated sheik, people put too much faith into what Zero (and top players in general) had to say. Its good to consider but its not a replacement for real analysis.

 

[Noa.]

Can we now, for once and for all, stop pretending that Diddy is anything but a solidly top 10 character still?

Current CEO results by characters, to the best of my limited knowledge:

Winners:
Zero /
ESAM
Nairo (+ against Sol)
MVD


Losers:
Dabuz
Shaky
Larry
NickRiddle (+ surprise technically?)


9th Place:
Vinnie
Master Raven
Mr. R
StaticManny


13th Place:
Tyrant
Fresh Die Nasty
Anti
KamiKario


17th Place:
falln
Fatality
Phuzix
8BitMan
AWAL
Trela
SeagullJoe
Poltergust


25th Place:
KDB
6WX
Neos ???
Tony ???
Xaltis
TheReflexWonder
Myran
ScAtt

Neos plays Rosa. And Tony is actually the player Dao from California. He plays Diddy. He's listed as Tony though. Polt plays Luigi but I never saw him win a set with Luigi in this tournament.

But this is a pretty decent character spread. It's funny how the best character in the game didn't make top 8, unless you count zero. You'd think that would be impossible for MK during Brawl at a national.

It's surprising to not see any Luigis. But Florida has no great Luigi players. And none of the best Luigi players came (Boss, Mr. Concon, J Miller).

After that the only other high tier character missing is Villager. He still doesn't have many players in the U.S., but he does have MJG who's pretty remarkable with her. But MJG didn't make it out of pools. There are actually a lot of great players who unexpectedly did not make it out of pools.

I watched a Florida stream a couple weeks ago. Characters aside I was greatly impressed with how well MVD played against ESAM, from a player perspective it felt like his talent was close to or on ESAM's level.

This is how I'd make a general rank of talent for smash 4 (US only).

Tier 1
Zero
Nairo
ESAM/MVD/Dabuz

Tier 2
Larry, 6wx, Ito, Shaky, etc.

Also I strongly suspected we'd see NY/NJ get exposed to an extent. Theyre clearly one of the better regions but they too easily claimed (and were accepted as) the undisputed best region. I feel part of their success relied on heavier use of polarizing characters and after a couple nerfs would struggle to achieve similar success. However I do believe Nairo has stepped into his own level and Dabuz fits in his own class as well since local results seem to indicate theyre pulling away from the rest of the pack.

There's a hodgepodge of very talented players outside this mostly from SoCal, Florida, and NY/NJ (IMO between these three NY/NJ has the least amount of depth, while SoCal is the weakest at the top end). Texas has talent too but its unclear to what degree.

Anyways, kind of tangential but I thought about it because I feel MVD's skill is important to the context of diddy.

Also RE: ZSS vs Sonic, Id like to see the MU played out more with a 6wx style of sonic, but in any case good to know she can beat the typical spin to win stuff.

6wx performed a lot better against Nick than Seagull Joe or Manny. He took it to game 3 and they were both on their last stock. He was up like 40 or 50 percent but Nick Riddle pulled out a clutch uair uair up b and won the set.

 

[NickRiddle]

I had the best bracket ever!
3 Sonics is my dream!

I went Bowser against Shaky because he ****ed my ZSS up... Had to try something.

What do vs. Fox?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pivot ftilt, jab + mix-ups, dtilt, low nairs ... basically the same stuff Fox does minus dair plus zair.

It's still a tough matchup though.

 

[NickRiddle]

Sounds good.
I'm probably going to be a crazy person and try to flipdtool him off-stage.
good idea Y/N

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I had the best bracket ever!
3 Sonics is my dream!

I went Bowser against Shaky because he ****ed my ZSS up... Had to try something.

What do vs. Fox?

Can't say I blame you. I remember on this thread at some point we concluded that Bowser has a very good Ness matchup. I'm... not entirely sure why that's supposed to make any sense at all but that's what I remember.
But that's okay because one thing we all agree on is that Sonic is literally cancer.

 

[Djent]

I am excited for your rematch @ NickRiddle . I remember your rivalry from the MLG days.

@ NachoOfCheese I...kind of don't think Sonic is that cancerous anymore. He probably invalidates a few low-tiers and does well vs. Sheik, but the fact that he gets pooped on by ZSS and Pikachu limits his consistency at the highest level of play.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I am excited for your rematch @ NickRiddle . I remember your rivalry from the MLG days.

@ NachoOfCheese I...kind of don't think Sonic is that cancerous anymore. He probably invalidates a few low-tiers and does well vs. Sheik, but the fact that he gets pooped on by ZSS and Pikachu limits his consistency at the highest level of play.

Honest question: Have you been watching CEO?

 

[Diddy Kong]

People thought diddy was a lot worse for the same reason they overrated sheik, people put too much faith into what Zero (and top players in general) had to say. Its good to consider but its not a replacement for real analysis.

Truth to be told, he's worse now. But with 1.07, I believe he was still actually the best character in the game. Now, probably not but he still shouldn't be slept on.

 

[Djent]

I watched the beginning of pools and the end of semis. I'll probably get to catch most of finals today.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I for one still think people vastly underrate potential in the meta game. I really liked the way kamicario was moving with Lucario in the neutral utilizing B-reversal aura spheres to approach and I feel like he's only going to get better in the meta.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pikachu poops on Sonic?

I think ZSS is the only character backwards enough to do that.

Sonic is still cancer for just about everybody else though.

 

[Nu~]

Trampoline and Z dropped fruit help to stop both campy and aggressive sonics,

Our local Pac-tuber @PEPESPAIN believes that the matchup could be even or in our favor. But even so, I still don't like fighting that disease.

 

[Noa.]

I can never trust what a Pacman on smashboards says. All this theorycrafting and so few results.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I watched the beginning of pools and the end of semis. I'll probably get to catch most of finals today.

Can you provide with a ?

 

[Smog Frog]

from what i observed, only destroyed campy . 6wx was in a position to take it(and actually would have, if wasnt so...cheesy good at taking stocks at low % off punishes). in general destroys campy styles(i have doubts about ; can @TheReflexWonder give insight on the matchup if he can?), so it wasnt a surprise seagull and manny got bopped.

also shoutouts to @Shaky for going to basically last hit last stock both games vs zero's . best performance i've seen against zero so far.

 

[Ikes]

I still don't think Pika beats Diddy. I think this MU is perpetually overrated by ESAM, while cross-up-roll-UTiltchu is actually even with Sheik at the highest level where needles are more reactable. Mid-level will still go to the ninja.

Even with at top level (IMO):
Loses slightly:
Loses by a lot:

wait are you saying luigi and ness lose to Sheik, or Sheik loses to luigi and ness?

 

[Nu~]

I can never trust what a Pacman on smashboards says. All this theorycrafting and so few results.

http://youtu.be/K-7Q7nDoDPg
http://youtu.be/3un0V-Zi4y4

We don't have much since few pacman players exist, but we at least have some.
I could find some from Abadango as well, but it's going to be difficult.

 

[Kofu]

@ Luco yeah Ness's UAir has got some insane range, I'm surprised he doesn't give himself whiplash when he uses it. But good to know Lucas's UAir is still pretty strong.

 

[Ikes]

http://youtu.be/K-7Q7nDoDPg
http://youtu.be/3un0V-Zi4y4

We don't have much since few pacman players exist, but we at least have some.
I could find some from Abadango as well, but it's going to be difficult.

abadango pay attention those z-dropped fruits are scary

seriously though thats hella cool and ive never seen it done before
does abadango ever do that? i havent seen it before

 

[Cassio]

Similar to ZSS, Pika can force Sonic into actually playing the game thanks to jolt, so I wouldnt say he's cancer vs pika. But Id say ZSS still does better overall. Nerfs to his kill power certainly affected this MU.

 

[Nu~]

abadango pay attention those z-dropped fruits are scary

seriously though thats hella cool and ive never seen it done before
does abadango ever do that? i havent seen it before

He does it with the key, but he rarely does it during a match.

It's something we all have to practice more. It's so dangerous

 

[PUK]

I can never trust what a /insert middle tier here/ on smashboards says. All this theorycrafting and so few results. I don't like /insert character here/ and i'm lazy so i don't bother looking for result. If /insert character here/ win a major (in USA of course) i will believe it.

fixed

 

[bc1910]

I had the best bracket ever!
3 Sonics is my dream!

Said no-one else, ever

 

[TTTTTsd]

ST is about match-ups till someone pulls out Boxer or O.Sagat.

Then its about nonsense.

P. much. Also to make an addendum to your earlier post, I think Gief goes even with Boxer. Gief absolutely eats Old Boxer though, I can say from experience (unilaterally worse footsies/buttons and no super as a trade for better Dash Punch coverage on standing variant is no bueno in the Gief match). I think you could replace "Boxer" with Claw though, that character is a lot more about nonsense in ST. Boxer just wins by virtue of 5/5s and 6/4s everywhere last I checked.

On a more Smash related note, I really appreciate people taking note of Marth's buffs. He feels REALLY good now, Jab is so amazing <3. Falco is oh so massively improved as well (feel like he has a real gameplan now with his new aerial kit)

 

[Ffamran]

And Tony is actually the player Dao from California. He plays Diddy. He's listed as Tony though.

Wait... Are there two Daos? One Dao I know plays an average Falco and got whooped by Megafox at the recent Texas tournament and I believe, since he played Falco at CEO, he showed up at CEO and got whooped by Dabuz who destroyed his Falco and Diddy in pools. If they're the same person, then is he from Texas or California?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I can never trust what a Pacman on smashboards says. All this theorycrafting and so few results.

Yeah don't they claim he has a 55:45 matchup across the board? Like plz. If that were even a little bit true EVERYONE would main Pac man no questions asked. And how exactly do you examine all those matchups with only like 5 or 6 matches on record? It's all theory. And I don't buy it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah don't they claim he has a 55:45 matchup across the board? Like plz. If that were even a little bit true EVERYONE would main Pac man no questions asked. And how exactly do you examine all those matchups with only like 5 or 6 matches on record? It's all theory. And I don't buy it.

I mean, I'm willing to take on faith that Pac-Man has a lot of really horrifying traps and setups and stuff (his fruits are just too varied for that to be false, I think, and that's ignoring the hydrant and trampoline), but he seems a lot like Peach in that good Pac-Man play demands a high level of skill (be it tech skill or something else) that most people just don't have the time for. Also I'm not entirely sure if he can set up a lot of his traps on the fly, on paper it sounds like Pac-Man needs time to set himself up and I can't see the likes of Sheik, Fox, Sonic, ZSS, etc. giving him that time easily.

 

[FullMoon]

In theory Pac-Man has an answer to everything, but in practice those answer need time to be set up and so fast characters can very easily overwhelm him and not allow him to do anything that he wants to. The only time he'll have a chance to set stuff up is when he has sent the opponent offstage, in neutral I just can't see Pac-Man doing his stuff unless the opponent flat-out lets him.

 

[thehard]

I watched a Florida stream a couple weeks ago. Characters aside I was greatly impressed with how well MVD played against ESAM, from a player perspective it felt like his talent was close to or on ESAM's level.

This is how I'd make a general rank of talent for smash 4 (US only).

Tier 1
Zero
Nairo
ESAM/MVD/Dabuz

Tier 2
Larry, 6wx, Ito, Shaky, etc.

Also I strongly suspected we'd see NY/NJ get exposed to an extent. Theyre clearly one of the better regions but they too easily claimed (and were accepted as) the undisputed best region. I feel part of their success relied on heavier use of polarizing characters and after a couple nerfs would struggle to achieve similar success. However I do believe Nairo has stepped into his own level and Dabuz fits in his own class as well since local results seem to indicate theyre pulling away from the rest of the pack.

There's a hodgepodge of very talented players outside this mostly from SoCal, Florida, and NY/NJ (IMO between these three NY/NJ has the least amount of depth, while SoCal is the weakest at the top end). Texas has talent too but its unclear to what degree.

Anyways, kind of tangential but I thought about it because I feel MVD's skill is important to the context of diddy.

Also RE: ZSS vs Sonic, Id like to see the MU played out more with a 6wx style of sonic, but in any case good to know she can beat the typical spin to win stuff.

This was pre-1.0.8, but I seem to remember MVD soundly beating ESAM once and ESAM himself saying MVD was better than him in their non-customs tournaments.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I mean, I'm willing to take on faith that Pac-Man has a lot of really horrifying traps and setups and stuff (his fruits are just too varied for that to be false, I think, and that's ignoring the hydrant and trampoline), but he seems a lot like Peach in that good Pac-Man play demands a high level of skill (be it tech skill or something else) that most people just don't have the time for. Also I'm not entirely sure if he can set up a lot of his traps on the fly, on paper it sounds like Pac-Man needs time to set himself up and I can't see the likes of Sheik, Fox, Sonic, ZSS, etc. giving him that time easily.

You're 100% right. I know because back
when Pac man was my secondary I would train on For Glory (lol I was a scrub) and get BODIED in tourney by people who kept the pressure up.
In Doubles however I firmly believe PacMan will become a real threat (a la G&W). He has the tools to tank stocks and control space. And Z drop keys can be easier to obtain with a partner. The dude has potential.

 

[Luco]

Can't say I blame you. I remember on this thread at some point we concluded that Bowser has a very good Ness matchup. I'm... not entirely sure why that's supposed to make any sense at all but that's what I remember.
But that's okay because one thing we all agree on is that Sonic is literally cancer.

Actually, I'm going to let someone more experienced do the talking on this one. I can see why it's even or close to even in my head though.

 

[Nu~]

The trampoline is the main reason why we don't lose to fast characters. It allows us to ignore most character's neutral games and gives us extra time to set up traps.
For example, by placing a trampoline near the ledge and sitting behind it, the opponent can't do anything but wait for us to finish charging fruit.
Unless you have a projectile that can beat out our Power Pellet shielding.

Yeah don't they claim he has a 55:45 matchup across the board? Like plz. If that were even a little bit true EVERYONE would main Pac man no questions asked. And how exactly do you examine all those matchups with only like 5 or 6 matches on record? It's all theory. And I don't buy it.

What are you even talking about? Stop shoving words into our mouths. No one is claiming that Pac-Man is Shiek (or brawl meta knight that I know most of you just love to make an erroneous comparison to lol)

People don't main him because he doesn't look like much at a first glance, but in time, people will see what the character is capable of.

Edit: @ ParanoidDrone is also correct that he takes a lot of patience and creativity to play, which turns off most people.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

The trampoline is the main reason why we don't lose to fast characters. It allows us to ignore most character's neutral games and gives us extra time to set up traps.
For example, by placing a trampoline near the ledge and sitting behind it, the opponent can't do anything but wait for us to finish charging fruit.


What are you even talking about? Stop shoving words into our mouths. No one is claiming that Pac-Man is Shiek (or brawl meta knight that I know most of you just love to make an erroneous comparison to lol)

People don't main him because he doesn't look like much at a first glance, but in time, people will see what the character is capable of.

Edit: @ ParanoidDrone is also correct that he takes a lot of patience and creativity to play, which turns off most people.

Dude no I swear some Pac man said that on this thread. It was back when we were discussing a the Rosa matchup (which he claimed was in Pac mans favor)

 

[Pazx]

Thank you for reminding me of the weirdest damn thing that happened yesterday. Why in the world did NickRiddle throw away his spot in Winners with that Bowser against Shaky?

There's this theory going around that Bowser beats Ness (and also that ZSS loses to Ness). It probably has something to do with Bowser completely outranging him but I don't see it at all ("Bowser invalidates PKF 90:10 matchup"). Even if Bowser does have a surprisingly manageable matchup with Ness I'd imagine ZSS still fairs marginally better. Sometimes you just gotta mix things up.

 

[Luco]

The issue is, Pacman mains talk about characters that they win against or go even with and I can't help but sit here and think "well shouldn't they be winning tournaments more if that were the case?"

I know Pacman is a high tier character, I've thought that for a long time, but I see so few tournaments where Pac shines like, well, to be honest, the company he's with in high and top tier. Is this because the players aren't up to scratch (or behind the meta) or because his MUs are better in theory than they are in reality (kinda like Sheik, except Sheik actually has the results to back herself up more)? If either of them are true, it means the MU rating you're giving for Pac represents something you'll either have in future or won't be able to attain within the limits of human capacity. Your MU ratings should be reflecting what's happening now, not what may or may not happen. If you're losing MUs in tournaments, yes it's very fair to say "oh I had the tools to win that MU", but be realistic. Sometimes characters will get in far too quickly to give you time to set up anything and/or not give a damn about Pac's camping (customs Rosa, Fox, etc), and that might mean *shock horror* a losing MU.

Like, right, I could be wrong about this and Pac-man just loses hard to 1 or 2 common characters in tournament or something. But the way Pac mains talk about their character versus the lack of good results at national level is disparate, and I'd like to know why.

Sorry if this comes off more aggressive than I want it to be, that's not my intent at all. I'm just genuinely curious. Why don't you guys think Pac is getting higher more consistently (even in Japan, Abadango is the only player I know of that's doing semi-decently with Pac) at a national plane, and do you think this affects his MUs at a practical level?

EDIT: But Ness loses to Sheik, Sonic, Rosa and possibly Luigi and Megaman and I don't see many people claiming Pac is higher than Ness. Surely Pac doesn't just lose to 2 characters?

 

[Nu~]

Dude no I swear some Pac man said that on this thread. It was back when we were discussing a the Rosa matchup (which he claimed was in Pac mans favor)

Well after Pac-Man players adopted the pellet healing strategy and aggressive mid range play, we decided the matchup was even.
@BSP even put his theory into practice and went even with Dabuz after 6 games. No one claimed that pacman goes 55:45 with the entire cast. We agree that we lose to pikachu and shiek.