Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

dancing blade 1 on the ground got 3/4 frames taken off too.

Also; Diddy is still good, I'll rescind a little (or clarify). Mid-level diddy is so so so dead now. But Diddy has an amazing set of specials, with still fantastic frame data. I've said this before and I'll say it again more confidently, but he's "Brawl Marth" (without the whole lame chain grabs/grab releases) in power level and some game play focus (his best normals being fair and down tilt ). Generally low risk medium reward, requires spacing to succeed.
Is top 15 for him still feasible? Probably. But top 15 characters in the game are honestly extremely close. Top 10 just by weight of results / relevance (heck MVD has taken out vinnie and is 1 game up over RAMIN).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

(Meanwhile Diddy is continuing to dominate and is blatantly still a top tier character)

oh please, diddy lives in top 10 now

 

[Quickhero]

oh please, diddy lives in top 10 now

Well, unless top tier for you means something as strict as top 3, being the 10th best character in the entire game is still considered top tier.

 

[BiRdZ]

Well, unless top tier for you means something as strict as top 3, being the 10th best character in the entire game is still considered top tier.

I don't think Diddy is top tier, most likely high tier.

 

[bc1910]

Well, unless top tier for you means something as strict as top 3, being the 10th best character in the entire game is still considered top tier.

I don't think everyone sees it that way. For example I think there's a clear 5 character top tier of Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, Pikachu and ZSS. I think those characters are significantly better than everyone else and whilst there are plenty of other good characters, they are still high tier max. I understand this may not be a popular opinion though, and of course my top tier is missing key characters like Ness and Luigi who lots of people consider shoe-ins for top tier.

 

[thehard]

MVD just beat Mr. R with Diddy.

 

[Shaya]

MVD just beat Ramin.
Jesus.

MVD > Ramin AND Vinnie. 2 of the top Sheiks taken out by Diddy still.
ZeRo up there playing Diddy (and Sheik it seems for some specific match ups).

This is crazy/hype.
But Florida always wins in Florida nationals. It's the curse/eternal truth.

 

[Asdioh]

MVD just beat Mr. R with Diddy.

After beating Vinnie.
Like... isn't Sheik supposed to be possibly Diddy's worst matchup after the nerfs? \(o_o)/
He still has amazing tools, as I've been saying. Only top 15? lol
also that ending was tense as hell.

 

[Shaya]

"Sheik actually isn't the infallible top tier we expect her to be"

I'm pretty sure Sheik is really wishing she still had a killing back air... while dealing with characters that have strong horizontal tools.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

"Sheik actually isn't the infallible top tier we expect her to be"

I'm pretty sure Sheik is really wishing she still had a killing back air... while dealing with characters that have strong horizontal tools.

who has a positive MU against her ( I've heard kirby, but idk)?

 

[Ffamran]

ZeRo's use of single Needles causing hit stun and advancing... Why does Sheik have that kind of tool?

 

[Asdioh]

ZeRo's use of single Needles causing hit stun and advancing... Why does Sheik have that kind of tool?

Because Nintendo makes a lot of awesome design decisions, but they still make mistakes. :/

 

[Nobie]

Wario's greatest weakness by far is his stubby arms. He can throw out all of the motorcycle and bites and farts he wants, and of course his aerial mobility is fantastic, but at the end of the day he's going to have problems with large disjoints. It's why I think Dedede wins over Wario, and if Dedede can do that, I'm not sure how comfortable Wario would feel about fighting Marth (or possibly even Lucina for that matter).

 

[Shaya]

NS Seagull Joe@CEO ‏@SeagullJoeSSB 3m3 minutes ago
Lost to @VS_NickRiddle. Zss vs Sonic might be unwinnable LOL.

who has a positive MU against her ( I've heard kirby, but idk)?

Kirby doesn't. In theory land, Sheik doesn't lose to anything, in practicality world her weaknesses can be exploited and the stress of managing treading that wire (which is losing stock first is a near auto-lose) means she can lose.

I think a ton of characters who have great frame data, good mobility and real kill set ups aren't "free" for Sheik.

 

[Ffamran]

Because Nintendo makes a lot of awesome design decisions, but they still make mistakes. :/

I forgot to also mention that it does 1%. 1% usually means a multi-hit or some kind of weird follow-up hit like on Sonic's F-throw parts. Fox's projectile does 1.2%? far away, but it doesn't cause hit stun. Hell, using it up close doesn't cause hit stun, but 1 single Needle from Sheik does hit stun, has little end lag, and she can advance with them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Didn't we both agree Marth was crap? Pretty sure we did. I didn't expect you to spin around semantics like this though
You also thought he was still crap when the only buff he got was a functioning dancing blade (well, that did come with 3 frame buffs too, but we knew DB nearly straight away).
BRUH.

I'm not really certain/confident in claiming match up values for Marth at this point. My ability to play in every match up generally successfully (5,000 years of Marth playing/match up experience for every sort of crap people would 'lame' you out with) skews perspective. Prior to this patch I was pretty comfortable stating he lost to Mario and Luigi; his toolkit is good enough to be able to run near-even with most of the cast before, now it's... better/easier. With the amount of things he has now, it seems feasible this character can win tournaments / not have anything that invalidates him.

Characters with less range than him now have to worry about jab a lot, and up tilt quite a bit more as it's no longer laggy enough to be punished by air dodges into the ground (lol).

iight you got me. Though I do not think I literally said crap.

Its all good though. I imagine in a year the only chars that will be considered low tier are those with inherent mobility issues.

As far as tiers go it depends on what you are looking at. If you look at overall perception of power and tools then many times a character looks weaker or stronger then they actually are. Sheik on paper doesnt SEEM that impressive. Roy looks far scarier then her for example. But when you apply the tools to the match-ups and what needles do for her as well as her frame data and how the rest of the cast deals with her she is clearly a notch above the rest.

When I look at Marth im trying to "see" how these changes effect his match-ups and why. ZSS and Link dont give a damn about these buffs really cept for nair. His neutral is slightly better vs them but they still get pretty free grabs on block. Vs say Mario, Marth can now contain him alot better and more consistently so the match is now more even. Mario cant get easy punishes. He has to take risks. He has to respect Marths sword.

To be honest this is rather pointless conjecture. Every patch is a new meta. Give it 3 years for the patches to end then we can have a real meta.

 

[busken]

Only top tier off the top of my head that doesn't have a bad MU against Shiek would be pikachu since his mobility is pretty insane, and his frame data helps him escape pressure.

EDIT: hopefully patches end, i dont think it well end until they confirm results for smash ballot.

 

[Shaya]

ZSS is like 45:55 at worse with Sheik (imo). The kill power difference + ZSS outranging her; disgusting.

Pikachu is solid (obviously), but I think results/top opinions show slight disadvantage.

Sonic still has mostly positive results when it comes to Sheik, Sonic mains lose to other characters... not Sheiks. Prior to bthrow nerfs I think slight advantage to Sonic was a fair statement to make. Sheik lost bair at the same time though. I think 50:50 or slight sonic advantage is reasonable.

Regions with top Foxes don't have successful Sheiks. Ramin's dropped sets to Fox, ZeRo won't use Sheik against Larry, Texas has a few sprinkles of Sheiks that get mauled by MegaFox. Slight disadvantage at worse (for Fox), fair to say even, not farfetched to say slight advantage to Fox.

Rosalina results against Sheik are pretty damning. I've read enough top player opinions on it being Sheik's advantage to hold me back from making assertions. Near even for sure.

Mario.. not too many top Marios around with Sheiks, but there isn't enough to show it's a large disadvantage.

Larry now playing Ramin in loser's, we'll see how this goes.

 

[Vipermoon]

Larry now playing Ramin in loser's, we'll see how this goes.

Lol, like you said, auto-lose if Sheik loses the first stock.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Livin' like Larry

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nu~]

Sooo, fire fox new kill confirm?

That was amazing. Love to see players pull out the unexpected to win

 

[19_]

Larry is so good he can do the up b custom combo without customs.

 

[Shaya]

We have in top 8:
1 Fox
1 Pikachu
2 Diddy's
1 Ness
Either 1 Rosalina or a 2nd Sheik
Either 1 Sonic or a 2nd Zero Suit.

 

[Cassio]

Why was it felt Diddy no longer beat sheik anyways? I feel like his tools are build almost to specifically counter her. Also MVD heavily exploited something I mentioned before, Sheik has an exceptionally difficult time dealing with good rolls (mostly cross-ups) then other good characters.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

ZSS is like 45:55 at worse with Sheik (imo). The kill power difference + ZSS outranging her; disgusting.

Pikachu is solid (obviously), but I think results/top opinions show slight disadvantage.

Sonic still has mostly positive results when it comes to Sheik, Sonic mains lose to other characters... not Sheiks. Prior to bthrow nerfs I think slight advantage to Sonic was a fair statement to make. Sheik lost bair at the same time though. I think 50:50 or slight sonic advantage is reasonable.

Regions with top Foxes don't have successful Sheiks. Ramin's dropped sets to Fox, ZeRo won't use Sheik against Larry, Texas has a few sprinkles of Sheiks that get mauled by MegaFox. Slight disadvantage at worse (for Fox), fair to say even, not farfetched to say slight advantage to Fox.

Rosalina results against Sheik are pretty damning. I've read enough top player opinions on it being Sheik's advantage to hold me back from making assertions. Near even for sure.

Mario.. not too many top Marios around with Sheiks, but there isn't enough to show it's a large disadvantage.

Larry now playing Ramin in loser's, we'll see how this goes.

doesn't ZSS have better mobility than sheik?

 

[thehard]

WHY ARE ALL THE SHEIKS LOSING? WHY ARE THERE NO LUIGIS? WHY IS FLORIDA SO DOMINANT?

CEO is amazing

 

[Ikes]

I think Kirby might be this games Wolf. Having otherwise unremarkable matchup spread but being the only one or one of few who has an even matchup with the number one character. I've heard a lot of reasons why Kirby goes even or even has a slight advantage over sheik (considerably even/better air game, can crouch under needles to avoid needle setups, utilt combos and the likes work on sheik just like anyone else) and I think i can agree with this.

 

[David Viran]

doesn't ZSS have better mobility than sheik?

yes she does.

 

[FullMoon]

doesn't ZSS have better mobility than sheik?

Yeah, Greninja and ZSS are pretty much tied for best overall mobility in this game outside of tiny Mii Brawler.

 

[Djent]

Was ESAM vs. Dabuz streamed? Sad I had to miss that one.

Turns out @Shaky should have said FL > NY/NJ.

 

[Shaya]

@ Baby_Sneak

Yep.
Sheik has needles, arcing aerials (easier to hit with) and a regular grab over ZSS.
Everything else ZSS has is as good or better by a non-trivial magnitude.

WHY ARE ALL THE SHEIKS LOSING? WHY ARE THERE NO LUIGIS? WHY IS FLORIDA SO DOMINANT?

CEO is amazing

I've been watching top players react to needle firing this entire time. *amazing*.
Sheik's neutral game looking pretty non-dominant when you got that reaction speed.

 

[A_Kae]

For specifics:

• Sheik
  Run Speed: 2.016
  Walk Speed: 1.4
  Air Speed: 1.1
  Fall Speed:1.75
  Fast Fall Speed: 2.8

• ZSS
  Run Speed: 2.1
  Walk Speed: 1.4
  Air Speed: 1.2
  Fall Speed:1.7
  Fast Fall Speed: 2.72

There's a bit more to it than that, but those are the basic stats.

 

[san.]

ZSS is like 45:55 at worse with Sheik (imo). The kill power difference + ZSS outranging her; disgusting.

Pikachu is solid (obviously), but I think results/top opinions show slight disadvantage.

Sonic still has mostly positive results when it comes to Sheik, Sonic mains lose to other characters... not Sheiks. Prior to bthrow nerfs I think slight advantage to Sonic was a fair statement to make. Sheik lost bair at the same time though. I think 50:50 or slight sonic advantage is reasonable.

Regions with top Foxes don't have successful Sheiks. Ramin's dropped sets to Fox, ZeRo won't use Sheik against Larry, Texas has a few sprinkles of Sheiks that get mauled by MegaFox. Slight disadvantage at worse (for Fox), fair to say even, not farfetched to say slight advantage to Fox.

Rosalina results against Sheik are pretty damning. I've read enough top player opinions on it being Sheik's advantage to hold me back from making assertions. Near even for sure.

Mario.. not too many top Marios around with Sheiks, but there isn't enough to show it's a large disadvantage.

Larry now playing Ramin in loser's, we'll see how this goes.

*sigh* feels like 2010 all over again.

 

[Shaya]

*sigh* feels like 2010 all over again.

Ban Sheik?
(I don't get your tone/point you're making here)

And by Ban Sheik I mean
"we're losing on purpose so we don't get nerfed, amirite?"

Anyway

2 Diddys (winner's SIDE)
1 Pikachu
1 Fox
1 Ness
1 Rosalina
Half a Sheik
And either 1 sonic or a 2nd ZSS.

I think we'll be seeing Diddy first match for ZeRo vs ESAM's Pikachu.
Nairo vs MVD... MVD is so hot right now I'm not really certain who'll win. If Diddy's base tools are still strong enough for Sheik, they're probably strong enough for the Zero Suit (we abhor his forward air).

 

[Kofu]

*Often I can string Nairs and Uairs together and get the opponent to kill percents reasonably easily, and then I'm sitting there for ages working out how to get the kill.

Sounds a bit like woes.

How does Lucas's UAir compare to Ness's? I haven't been able to play lately to check but it seemed weaker and with less range.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

CAN NOT WAIT FOR MVD AND NAIRO WOOOOOOO :D

btw, who does ESAM uses? I forgot about him

 

[BiRdZ]

CAN NOT WAIT FOR MVD AND NAIRO WOOOOOOO :D

btw, who does ESAM uses? I forgot about him

EASM uses Pikachu

 

[A_Kae]

CAN NOT WAIT FOR MVD AND NAIRO WOOOOOOO :D

btw, who does ESAM uses? I forgot about him

ESAM is always pikachu

 

[BiRdZ]

So if I remember correctly, it's Zero vs EASM, Nairo vs MVD, and losers is Larry Lurr vs NickRiddle, and Dabuz vs Shaky. Hype matches incoming.

 

[Dagon97]

I have new hope for Little Mac after Sol almost beat Nairo in pools.
Sheik is looking a lot worse than people thought + the developing meta. Who is best now?