Character Competitive Impressions

[TheReflexWonder]

The jank with this character doesn't end. Ever since the dev team took out Pac-Man's ability to drop hydrants through the stage, massive glitches are appearing everywhere in his moveset.

And I love it all!

Does that keep the Hydrant in a constant fall state?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well being better than his Brawl incarnation isn't saying much; 30th on the tier list (rank E) is pretty awful. Honestly there's no way he could be as bad as his Brawl version because he doesn't have the grab releases anymore.

Which is kind of the point. He's better than his Brawl incarnation but not by a whole bunch, unlike Ness. Like Sonic, Yoshi, and Sheik in Brawl, I think he'll have a niche in mid tier tournaments with at least one person being stupidly good with him and consistently getting in the top 16 in major tournaments. Like Ike when the game first came out, I think Lucas' trade offs are questionable, where aspects of him are unquestionably better but they made certain aspects worse for some reasons. His throws are stronger and he has much better grab set ups but his grab is worse. PK freeze and PSI Magnet are more functional but PK thunder is slower and PK fire is harder to short hop. His tether is much better but PKT2 is easier to manipulate and is more predictable. His aerials seem better but his tilts (particularly dtilt) are worse. It's a weird mixed bag.

I don't think any of the DLC characters are especially good. Mid tier at best. They hit hard but struggle to get in and appear to lose to the same stuff everyone else does. Roy is probably the best of the three by virtue of his speed.

I still think Ryu's going to be a monster once more people get him down. It may be awhile though because I feel as though his learning curve is what's keeping a ton of people from swarming to him. He reminds me a lot of Wario or Olimar in that not a lot of people are going to really give him a chance until somebody freakishly good comes along and shows what they're capable of.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Everyone's giving Ryu a chance, though. At first glance, he just gets outspaced and camped too hard, and all of the big advantages people like to cite go out the window when he gets grabbed.

EDIT: Also, his large hitlag multipliers make SDI more effective against him than anyone else, and they also make his moves less safe on shield and powershield when they're not being canceled into other options.

 

[Nu~]

Does that keep the Hydrant in a constant fall state?

Yeah. The hydrant is trying to continue its downward path, but since the dev team patched the hydrant, it just stays there in suspended motion

This should probably put Pac-Man at one of, if not the best ledgeguarder in the game combined with his trampoline that limits get up options and fruit for every get up angle.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah. The hydrant is trying to continue its downward path, but since the dev team patched the hydrant, it just stays there in suspended motion

Unique to Smashville/Battlefield, I'm guessing? They need to tighten up the thin lips on those levels.

 

[Nu~]

Unique to Smashville/Battlefield, I'm guessing? They need to tighten up the thin lips on those levels.

Nah, works on town and city as well. It may work on every stage, but I'm still testing.

 

[Luco]

Of course the character from an 80s game that glitches merely when you get too far in the game is going to be the most glitch character in smash too.

Also I'm not entirely convinced all of Lucas' aerials are better (Nair and Fair used to AC, apparently they don't now?).

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

The Wizard Foot can help Ganondorf to get down when so close to the Blast-Line. I tried doing the same with the Falcon Kick a few times, but he fell too fast and I couldn't recover with Falcon Dive. Is it my lack of timing or is the attack is really too fast?

 

[Firefoxx]

The Wizard Foot can help Ganondorf to get down when so close to the Blast-Line. I tried doing the same with the Falcon Kick a few times, but he fell too fast and I couldn't recover with Falcon Dive. Is it my lack of timing or is the attack is really too fast?

You have to start Falcon Kick at the top corner of the screen (like, in magnifying glass range) to be able to act fast enough out of the end lag to recover/not sd if you don't aim for the stage itself.

 

[momochuu]

I wish that meme could die in a purgatory flame

i still wonder if people that use that "joke" actually think its even a little bit funny

 

[Djent]

Hey all,

I made a thread to compile all Japanese results for this game. While posting them here can be pertinent to MU and character discussion, I wanted to organize them better + post them where they actually belong. I'll still drop some commentary in here as it is relevant, but I will no longer be cluttering this thread with detailed results lists.

RE: Umebura 17, I think it's obvious that is shaping up to be the best doubles character even before Vanish Bucket is in play. Which is kind of terrifying. She was on 5/6 of the top placing teams at this event.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Smash 4 doubles is one huge ****ing mess in general imo. Very fun but probably not suited for competitive play tbh.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Everyone's giving Ryu a chance, though. At first glance, he just gets outspaced and camped too hard, and all of the big advantages people like to cite go out the window when he gets grabbed.

EDIT: Also, his large hitlag multipliers make SDI more effective against him than anyone else, and they also make his moves less safe on shield and powershield when they're not being canceled into other options.

I can understand the difficulty in assessing Ryu, mostly because his game is vastly different than any other character in this game.

But I think his reward is what prevents him from being anywhere near bad. It's absurd how you can do a Frame 3 move and convert into a kill move, regardless of SDI or other things. It doesn't fix his flaws but I don't think his flaws hold him to a "mid tier at best" position. Nowhere near Top Tier though, I'll wager. Same with Roy, he's super good onstage but his recovery and lack of a spammable safe option keep him from being top, but high/bottom end of high tier is also somewhere where I'd think him. They're all viable (except Mewtwo oh jesus gawdddd)

 

[Djent]

Smash 4 doubles is one huge ****ing mess in general imo. Very fun but probably not suited for competitive play tbh.

I concur. This game is like a reverse Brawl; glorious singles and jank-ass doubles.

 

[Asdioh]

Smash 4 doubles is one huge ****ing mess in general imo. Very fun but probably not suited for competitive play tbh.

3v3 with smashballs on low is among the most fun I've had in this game, and arguments could be made for it being less janky than this 2v2 nonsense lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I can understand the difficulty in assessing Ryu, mostly because his game is vastly different than any other character in this game.

But I think his reward is what prevents him from being anywhere near bad. It's absurd how you can do a Frame 3 move and convert into a kill move, regardless of SDI or other things. It doesn't fix his flaws but I don't think his flaws hold him to a "mid tier at best" position. Nowhere near Top Tier though, I'll wager. Same with Roy, he's super good onstage but his recovery and lack of a spammable safe option keep him from being top, but high/bottom end of high tier is also somewhere where I'd think him. They're all viable (except Mewtwo oh jesus gawdddd)

It's really not that different; hit confirms are hit confirms. Many characters, both both good and bad ones, have Jabs and D-Tilts that do this. Ryu's generally have poor range and he doesn't have good movement or a shorthop airdodge to get around that. People are hyping up his combo potential and KO setups, but if your reliable punishes aren't easy to manage in neutral, it doesn't matter much.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's really not that different; hit confirms are hit confirms. Many characters, both both good and bad ones, have Jabs and D-Tilts that do this. Ryu's generally have poor range and he doesn't have good movement or a shorthop airdodge to get around that. People are hyping up his combo potential and KO setups, but if your reliable punishes aren't easy to manage in neutral, it doesn't matter much.

There are characters who can jab into a guaranteed kill? I'm....actually a bit curious. I'm aware that there are jabs that actually DO kill (lol Rosalina) but....I'm pretty sure Ryu is the only one who can natively cancel his moves and get free combos (even with SDI factored in). Ryu's elbow infinite is actually a thing even with SDI if you set the C Stick to attack and walk forward during it as well, forgot to mention that vs. fastfallers. You can't do it in place but you can walk forward with it IIRC.

I mean I don't disagree, some chars have really fast kill confirms like Ryu light normals, but I think Ryu's damage overall, his reward on everything, and his ridiculous punish game (which does exist) keep him from being a bad character. The same way Roy's mobility (IMO) makes him a strong viable character. I'm well aware of Ryu's faults and I agree that they WILL hold him back early on, but I think the options Ryu THEORETICALLY provides keep him from being irrelevant.

I guess we'll both have to see down the line, but I can't disagree with you about Ryu's problems. Those are all factual and people should listen to those, they're what Ryu is going to struggle with the most.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There are characters who can jab into a guaranteed kill? I'm....actually a bit curious. I'm aware that there are jabs that actually DO kill (lol Rosalina) but....I'm pretty sure Ryu is the only one who can natively cancel his moves and get free combos (even with SDI factored in). Ryu's elbow infinite is actually a thing even with SDI if you set the C Stick to attack and walk forward during it as well, forgot to mention that vs. fastfallers. You can't do it in place but you can walk forward with it IIRC.

I mean I don't disagree, some chars have really fast kill confirms like Ryu light normals, but I think Ryu's damage overall, his reward on everything, and his ridiculous punish game (which does exist) keep him from being a bad character. The same way Roy's mobility (IMO) makes him a strong viable character. I'm well aware of Ryu's faults and I agree that they WILL hold him back early on, but I think the options Ryu THEORETICALLY provides keep him from being irrelevant.

I guess we'll both have to see down the line, but I can't disagree with you about Ryu's problems. Those are all factual and people should listen to those, they're what Ryu is going to struggle with the most.

Jigglypuff gets Jab -> Dash Attack and Jab -> Rest (the latter if she's close enough, and only on certain characters) at mid-to-high percents. Wario gets D-Tilt to all sorts of stuff, including Waft, at mid-to-high percents (I made a big chart on this a few weeks ago). Diddy probably gets D-Tilt -> U-Smash (Frame 5 U-Smash, lol) at high percents.

Ryu's U-Tilt string on fastfallers is only an infinite if you can properly react to whether or not the opponent will be moving behind you, I imagine. SDI to be nearer to or further away from Ryu is a 50/50 that should happen on every other U-Tilt or so.

Zelda's punish game can theoretically be quite severe and effective, as well (and now that I think about it, she probably still gets D-Tilt -> stuff like she did in Brawl); the problem is the limit to how reliable that ends up being in normal play. Regardless of the fact that I'm making this comparison to Zelda, my "mid tier at best" comment doesn't mean that he's an outright bad character.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yoshi, Fox and Link all have jab (or double-jab) to Smash confirms. Yoshi can also jab to down-B, but I don't believe that's 100% guaranteed.

 

[san.]

I can understand the difficulty in assessing Ryu, mostly because his game is vastly different than any other character in this game.

But I think his reward is what prevents him from being anywhere near bad. It's absurd how you can do a Frame 3 move and convert into a kill move, regardless of SDI or other things. It doesn't fix his flaws but I don't think his flaws hold him to a "mid tier at best" position. Nowhere near Top Tier though, I'll wager. Same with Roy, he's super good onstage but his recovery and lack of a spammable safe option keep him from being top, but high/bottom end of high tier is also somewhere where I'd think him. They're all viable (except Mewtwo oh jesus gawdddd)

Ryu's light jab seems to be frame 4 and light dtilt and utilt frame 5. I don't think he has any frame 3 moves. Coming from an Ike main, not having a frame 3 jab isn't that great. That 1 frame difference makes you much more susceptible to those 5 frame tilts and 6 frame jabs that likely outrange the jab.

Many characters have confirm setups. Some just happen to be easier to land and/or execute than others.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Jigglypuff gets Jab -> Dash Attack and Jab -> Rest (the latter if she's close enough, and only on certain characters) at mid-to-high percents. Wario gets D-Tilt to all sorts of stuff, including Waft, at mid-to-high percents (I made a big chart on this a few weeks ago). Diddy probably gets D-Tilt -> U-Smash (Frame 5 U-Smash, lol) at high percents.

Ryu's U-Tilt string on fastfallers is only an infinite if you can properly react to whether or not the opponent will be moving behind you, I imagine. SDI to be nearer to or further away from Ryu is a 50/50 that should happen on every other U-Tilt or so.

Zelda's punish game can theoretically be quite severe and effective, as well (and now that I think about it, she probably still gets D-Tilt -> stuff like she did in Brawl); the problem is the limit to how reliable that ends up being in normal play. Regardless of the fact that I'm making this comparison to Zelda, my "mid tier at best" comment doesn't mean that he's an outright bad character.

When my friend comes over this weekend I'll test for Ryu's elbow infinite vs. like, say Fox I suppose since he's the butt of every fastfaller litmus test in this game. Mostly to check if Ryu's elbow hitbox will hit even if he SDIs in (I imagine it is dependent on movement + placing and a lot of really complex silly factors)

Also @ san. Trifroze tested Ryu's frame data IIRC and his jab is Frame 3, actually! http://smashboards.com/threads/ryu-startup-landing-lag-frame-data.406417/ Unless this is wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[Ffamran]

Ryu's light jab seems to be frame 4 and light dtilt and utilt frame 5. I don't think he has any frame 3 moves. Coming from an Ike main, not having a frame 3 jab isn't that great. That 1 frame difference makes you much more susceptible to those 5 frame tilts and 6 frame jabs that likely outrange the jab.

Many characters have confirm setups. Some just happen to be easier to land and/or execute than others.

Edit: I read Ryu as Roy... At least Lucas isn't called Rucas... Carry on everyone...

Jab's frame 5, Utilt's frame 6, and Dtilt's frame 7. Also, Indy confirmed that Blazer only has super armor when used on the ground unlike Marth and Lucina's Dolphin Slash and Ike's Aether who are invincible or have super armor whenever. So, if Roy's off stage and recovering, go behind him and snap his spine.

Roy Frame Data​

Hi everyone. This is the thread where I will be posting Roy's frame data, along with damage outputs, when he releases. I have a capture card so it should be pretty darn accurate.

Jabs, Tilts, and Dash Attack​

Jab

• Damage: 7.5% at the whole blade, 4.5% at the very tip
• Hits on: F5
• FAF: F22

FTilt

• Damage: 12.5% from the hilt to the middle, 9% from the middle to the tip, 8% at the very tip
• Hits on: F8
• FAF: F31

UTilt

• Damage: 12% at the whole blade, 7% at the very tip
• Hits on: F6
• FAF: F38

DTilt

• Damage: 11% at the whole bade, 6.5% at the very tip
• Hits on: F7
• FAF: F21

Dash Attack

• Damage: 13% at the whole blade, 9% at the very tip
• Hits on: F12
• FAF: F49

Smashes and Aerials​

FSmash

• Damage: 20% from the hilt to the middle, 17% from the middle to the tip, 12% at the very tip
• Hits on: F14
• FAF: F54

USmash

• Damage
  • Setup hit: 1%, Fire
  • Weak hits: 2% ×4 (aerial target), 2% ×3 (grounded target), Fire
  • Strong finisher: 10%, Fire
• Hits on
  • Setup hit: F12
  • Finisher: F30
• FAF: F58

DSmash

• Damage
  • First swing: 15% at the whole blade, 10% at the very tip
  • Second swing: 17% at the whole blade, 11% at the very tip
• Hits on
  • First swing: F6
  • Second swing: F21
• FAF: F62

NAir

• Damage
  • First swing: 6% at the whole blade, 4% at the very tip
  • Second swing: 8.5% at the whole blade, 5% at the very tip
• Hits on
  • First swing: F6
  • Second swing: F13
• FAF (landing lag): F43 (14F)

FAir

• Damage: 11% at the whole blade, 7% at the very tip
• Hits on: F10
• FAF (landing lag): F29 (16F)

BAir

• Damage: 12% at the whole blade, 9% at the very tip
• Hits on: F8
• FAF (landing lag): F35 (20F)

UAir

• Damage: 9% at the whole blade, 6% at the very tip
• Hits on: F5
• FAF (landing lag): F41 (17F)

DAir

• Damage: 15% sweetspotted, 10% sourspotted
• Hits on: F16
• FAF (landing lag): F51 (29F)

Grabs, Throws, and Pummel​

Grab

• Grabs on
  • Standing: F7
  • Dashing: F8
  • Pivot: F9
• FAF
  • Standing: F29
  • Dashing: F36
  • Pivot: F34

Pummel

• Damage: 2%
• Hits on: F6
• FAF: F15

FThrow

• Damage: 5%
• Hits on: F15
• FAF: F31

BThrow

• Damage: 5%
• Hits on: F8
• FAF: F44

UThrow

• Damage: 6%
• Hits on: F13
• FAF: F43

DThrow

• Damage: 5%
• Hits on: F16
• FAF: F41

Specials​

Flare Blade

• Damage
  • Uncharged: 6%, Fire
  • Fully charged: 50%, 10% recoil, Fire
• Hits on
  • Uncharged: F23
  • Fully charged: F262
• FAF
  • Uncharged: F44
  • Fully charged: F283

Double-Edge Dance

Spoiler: Damage

• First swing
  • Side: 3% from hilt to middle, 2% from middle to tip
• Second swing
  • Up: 3% from hilt to middle, 2% from middle to tip
  • Side: 3% from hilt to middle, 2% from middle to tip
• Third swing
  • Up: 4% from hilt to middle, 3% from middle to tip
  • Side: 4% from hilt to middle, 3% from middle to tip
  • Down: 4% from hilt to middle, 3% from middle to tip
• Fourth swing
  • Up: 7% from hilt to middle, 5% from middle to tip, Fire
  • Side: 6% from hilt to middle, 4% from middle to tip, Fire
  • Down
    • Weak hits: 2% ×4 from hilt to middle
    • Strong finisher: 5% from hilt to middle, 3% from middle to tip, Fire

Blazer

• Damage
  • Setup hit: 5.5% (ground startup), 4.5% (aerial startup), Fire
  • Weak hits: 1% ×3, Fire
  • Strong finisher: 8% (ground startup), 6% (aerial startup), Fire
• Hits on
  • Setup hit: F10 (ground startup), F9 (aerial startup)
• Super Armour: F4-F10 (ground startup only)
• Landing lag: 30F

Counter

• Counter from: F8-F29
• Multiplier (Base damage): ×1.35 (8%), Fire
• Hits on: F5
• FAF
  • Success: F38
  • Failure: F59

 

[san.]

When my friend comes over this weekend I'll test for Ryu's elbow infinite vs. like, say Fox I suppose since he's the butt of every fastfaller litmus test in this game. Mostly to check if Ryu's elbow hitbox will hit even if he SDIs in (I imagine it is dependent on movement + placing and a lot of really complex silly factors)

Also @ san. Trifroze tested Ryu's frame data IIRC and his jab is Frame 3, actually! http://smashboards.com/threads/ryu-startup-landing-lag-frame-data.406417/ Unless this is wrong, but I doubt it.

I used http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu and just assumed it was the correct data.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Uhhh, while I appreciate the Roy info, we were talking Ryu @ Ffamran .

Still, I'm interested in giving Roy a fair shake so this data is nice for me!

On the note of Aerodrome's page, I reference Trifroze because his is the most complete dump of Ryu's data atm, although if we're assuming Aerodrome's using actual game data than there's no debate, but I'm unsure cause it's still not complete. Dunno anymore now!

 

[Ffamran]

Uhhh, while I appreciate the Roy info, we were talking Ryu .

Still, I'm interested in giving Roy a fair shake so this data is nice for me!

Ahem, Ryu, Roy, Roy Koopa, and if the world hated us, Rucas instead of Lucas. Hell, Falco gets autocorrected as Falcon despite the fact Falco or Falko is a German name and Falco was a well-known Austrian singer. Petition for Roy to be replaced by Eliwood please. Oh, and if Ryu Hayabusa ever gets in, he needs to be called Ryu Hayabusa or just Hayabusa since it would be a pain to remember which Ryu we were talking about.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm still waiting on Rival Schools/Project Justice Roy. Keep sweetening the deal, Capcom.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm still waiting on Rival Schools/Project Justice Roy. Keep sweetening the deal, Capcom.

That would be incredible. Either that or the teacher dude from Rival Schools, or Kyosuke.

Any of these are acceptable.

In the meantime been messing around with Roy's D-Throw and F-Throw. F-Throw is so good. F-Throw -> Run covers like, any option afterwards provided you react properly. I know it was discussed as a 50/50 earlier but I think it's a very vast mixup throw depending on your opponent's fallspeed.

 

[Zelder]

Kyosuke would be the freshest character possible short of an Inkling.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I used http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu and just assumed it was the correct data.

Uhhh, while I appreciate the Roy info, we were talking Ryu @ Ffamran .

Still, I'm interested in giving Roy a fair shake so this data is nice for me!

On the note of Aerodrome's page, I reference Trifroze because his is the most complete dump of Ryu's data atm, although if we're assuming Aerodrome's using actual game data than there's no debate, but I'm unsure cause it's still not complete. Dunno anymore now!

Yeah, Trifroze's Jab 1 is right, I've been a bit busy and Ryu's page was something I threw up in 10 mins to see what his FAF frames were.

I should probably, y'know, complete that page.

It surprises me the variance of data from the 3 sources so far.

I'll see what I can do and maybe finish and put up complete data tonight!

 

[Gamegenie222]

How can you forget Ryu from Breath of Fire nerds are slipping.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So Ryu DOES have a Frame 3 Jab! Awesome!

Also @ KuroganeHammer I think you should leave Ryu's page as is, I think the Charizard moves are going to be future customs :V.

Either way thanks for coming in here and clearing it up!

Also going to take about Ike, I barely play him and I've noticed his buffs already. He can't be a bad character now, it is literally impossible. They've fixed a lot of his really big issues to some extent and I can't discount him now. Pretty much all three major FE Swordsmen (Roy, Ike, Marth) are all really good as of this patch. If people keep ranking Ike as low tier maybe eventually he'll become a god or something lol.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

So Ryu DOES have a Frame 3 Jab! Awesome!

Also @ KuroganeHammer I think you should leave Ryu's page as is, I think the Charizard moves are going to be future customs :V.

Either way thanks for coming in here and clearing it up!

Also going to take about Ike, I barely play him and I've noticed his buffs already. He can't be a bad character now, it is literally impossible. They've fixed a lot of his really big issues to some extent and I can't discount him now. Pretty much all three major FE Swordsmen (Roy, Ike, Marth) are all really good as of this patch. If people keep ranking Ike as low tier maybe eventually he'll become a god or something lol.

I've got data that says Frame 2.

Could it be possible...?

I wonder if the jab and other moves can come out longer depending on how long you hold the A button...?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I've got data that says Frame 2.

Could it be possible...?

I wonder if the jab and other moves can come out longer depending on how long you hold the A button...?

Whoa......

Well, if his jab is frame 2 that's even better. That's Mario jab speed wow.

I mean, it could work on the same logic as SRK but if you hold A you get a strong attack so...maybe his jab is LITERALLY a Frame 2 jab.....that would be unbelievable! Like, this is Master Core data/data of some kind, right? Holy smokes.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Whoa......

Well, if his jab is frame 2 that's even better. That's Mario jab speed wow.

I mean, it could work on the same logic as SRK but if you hold A you get a strong attack so...maybe his jab is LITERALLY a Frame 2 jab.....that would be unbelievable! Like, this is Master Core data/data of some kind, right? Holy smokes.

Yes that is how his moves work. Heavy is first, but if you let go of the button it transitions into a light attack.

Holy ****

Varying frame data?!

Edit: why am I at work, I need to test this NOW

 

[san.]

I've got data that says Frame 2.

Could it be possible...?

I wonder if the jab and other moves can come out longer depending on how long you hold the A button...?

I think it goes down to frame 2, BUT....

Here's the interesting thing. No matter how quickly I tried to press the A button, when I used Ryu, his jab either lost to or clanked with Falcon's. But when I used C-stick set to attack and jabbed, it seemed to come out frame 2(or 3, it sometimes clanked). Attack stick seems to make the attack come out as soon as possible.

When using the A button, it's super difficult to get faster than frame 3-4.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes that is how his moves work. Heavy is first, but if you let go of the button it transitions into a light attack.

Holy ****

Varying frame data?!

I mean I'm aware of press and hold but....does how long you tap actually affect the tap normal? This character's precision levels are literally off the wall.

So Ryu has varying frame data...within his frame data, if this is all correct. Good lord that's complicated. I guess your best bet is to average it out (reasonable input, etc.) and use that number. On average Jab is frame 3 IIRC, so that would be what I'd go with.

 

[T-nuts]

How can you forget Ryu from Breath of Fire nerds are slipping.

That would be awesome.

On the topic of Ryu's weaknesses, one thing I've seen brought up but not really discussed is his aerial mobility. I don't mean his forward movement speed in the air, which is pretty good, I mean his relative inability to change directions in the air once he starts moving. Now, I haven't fought a good Ryu yet, but i feel like this almost has to be at least somewhat exploitable. Wouldn't it be harder for him than most characters to safely land after being juggled? And can he handle aerial combat against a character that can weave like Jiggs or Wario?

I'm kind of assuming he wants to stay on the ground and use his strong anti air options, but I've also seen people talking about using f-air as an OoS option. If that fair fails to connect, how does Ryu avoid a hard punish on landing?

Like I said, haven't fought a good Ryu yet, so maybe this is more of an issue in theory than in practice.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think it goes down to frame 2, BUT....

Here's the interesting thing. No matter how quickly I tried to press the A button, when I used Ryu, his jab either lost to or clanked with Falcon's. But when I used C-stick set to attack and jabbed, it seemed to come out frame 2(or 3, it sometimes clanked). Attack stick seems to make the attack come out as soon as possible.

When using the A button, it's super difficult to get faster than frame 3.

OMG OMG THIS IS SO EXCITING THANKS FOR THE PSEUDO CONFIRMATION

 

[TTTTTsd]

That would be awesome.

On the topic of Ryu's weaknesses, one thing I've seen brought up but not really discussed is his aerial mobility. I don't mean his forward movement speed in the air, which is pretty good, I mean his relative inability to change directions in the air once he starts moving. Now, I haven't fought a good Ryu yet, but i feel like this almost has to be at least somewhat exploitable. Wouldn't it be harder for him than most characters to safely land after being juggled? And can he handle aerial combat against a character that can weave like Jiggs or Wario?

I'm kind of assuming he wants to stay on the ground and use his strong anti air options, but I've also seen people talking about using f-air as an OoS option. If that fair fails to connect, how does Ryu avoid a hard punish on landing?

Like I said, haven't fought a good Ryu yet, so maybe this is more of an issue in theory than in practice.

Fair's landing lag is pretty negligble, if he Fairs forward OoS he can jump again and try to avoid being punished. I really recommend Fair OoS against tall people and any other shield option against Mario height or shorter. Rule of thumb but yeah. If they shield your Fair OoS because it's pre-emptive it's also a theoretical punish. In the air he's bad unless he's not in disadvantage. If it whiffs he's in a bad position, yeah. It's a great shield option against anyone of normal height, otherwise I recommend shield drop True SRK heavy, roll, or just SRK OoS.

 

[AvariceX]

So... more confirmation of what I've already suspected - that tilt-stick is practically a necessity for Ryu?