Character Competitive Impressions

[Asdioh]

Toon Link is actually kinda broken. Not much you an do against a good one unless your character is very fast or has very good range.

Go on? I almost never see Toon Links these days, but I'm thinking I need a counterpick for Sonic because he's just too obscenely fast for most characters to deal with, and Toon Link crossed my mind. Then again "unless your character is very fast" obviously applies to Sonic, so maybe not a good idea then.

I don't even know what to do about Sonic anymore. The local Sonic main's reign of terror has been ended by ZSS, but regardless of what character you use, I think you just need above-average reaction time to deal with Sonic, and I don't know how much reaction time can be improved.

Results from my customs on tournament this weekend http://challonge.com/HavenshineSmashInvitational I don't think they post results on smashboards but placings were like 1. ZSS, 2. Villager, 3. Pac Man/Mario 4. Fox, 5. Sonic, 5. Marth

 

[Teshie U]

Toon Link's kill confirm game off of a high priority projectile is extremely powerful. The only thing keeping it from being OP is the timer on bombs preventing stalemates like diddy holding the same banana for 30 seconds.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I don't even know what to do about Sonic anymore. The local Sonic main's reign of terror has been ended by ZSS, but regardless of what character you use, I think you just need above-average reaction time to deal with Sonic, and I don't know how much reaction time can be improved.

Google says the average reaction time is .215 seconds, or 12.9 frames. (Round up to 13 I guess.) Since that's average, I imagine dedicated/skilled players can improve that a bit but only to a point. Anything 10 frames or below I'd be comfortable calling "unreactable".

Toon Link's kill confirm game off of a high priority projectile is extremely powerful. The only thing keeping it from being OP is the timer on bombs preventing stalemates like diddy holding the same banana for 30 seconds.

I'm suddenly reminded of a customs match, Toon Link vs. whoever, and Toon Link was using the short fuse bombs. I'm pretty sure most of the damage he took was from his own bombs, it was kind of funny. And a bit sad, but mostly funny.

 

[Teshie U]

Yea, he killed himself eventually too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Really? I mean, his spam is kinda stupid and he gains great reward off of it, but I didn't expect him to be that good. Especially when you consider his rather poor options against shield.

When a toon link comes at me, bombs a blazing or tries to keep me out, I just F-air a hydrant towards his face and run behind it to protect me.

Pretty sure mega man can do the same with skull barrier and falco with his reflector.

Toon Link's kill confirm game off of a high priority projectile is extremely powerful. The only thing keeping it from being OP is the timer on bombs preventing stalemates like diddy holding the same banana for 30 seconds.

There also isn't really any such thing as a "disadvantaged" position for Toon Link. He can make the transition from disadvantaged to neutral pretty easily. Keeping up against Toon Link is a pretty painful affair as the room for error is pretty low against Toon Link [one mere Bomb can lead into a kill confirm] whereas Toon Link himself tends to have a more generous room for error due to his ability to move back and forth between neutral and disadvantaged. Some characters are simply not able to keep up with that kind of gameplay and I actually believe Luigi to be one of them.

Go on? I almost never see Toon Links these days, but I'm thinking I need a counterpick for Sonic because he's just too obscenely fast for most characters to deal with, and Toon Link crossed my mind. Then again "unless your character is very fast" obviously applies to Sonic, so maybe not a good idea then.

I don't even know what to do about Sonic anymore.

I don't actually think Toon Link is a particularly good choice against Sonic but then again I'm really not sure who is. Despite all the nerfs he received over time he is still a fundamentally overpowered character. Sonic mains seem to be of the opinion that Fox is a disadvantaged matchup but I don't trust their opinions on these things. Results indicate that Sonic has issues against Yoshi and ZSS and the upper hand against Sheik.

 

[Djent]

@ Kofu Ranai, Abadango, and aMSa will be there at least.

Also the Google RT data is probably a bit generous for the general population (though perhaps accurate for gamers). People only compulsively test their reactions if they're involved in something that requires them, and that involvement is already a selection hurdle.

 

[Teshie U]

Only thing Sonic really has on sheik is rage. Her level of frame safety doesn't really care how quickly you can get to her

 

[Asdioh]

Toon Link himself tends to have a more generous room for error due to his ability to move back and forth between neutral and disadvantaged

This is how I feel about Sonic. Any time you start a combo on him, there's a good chance he'll be able to Spring away and reset to neutral, and Sonic loooves neutral. At least, against most characters.

Results indicate that Sonic has issues against Yoshi and ZSS and the upper hand against Sheik.

Really? I was thinking Sheik would have a good matchup against him, mainly because of needles. I need something that can stop dashgrabs and spindash, besides just shielding it and hoping you can catch him on the way down, after he jumps away. Kirby's Jab clashes with Spindash... but only sometimes. If you hold A for the rapid Jab1, it may not clash, depending on the timing. You might just get hit in between jabs. To solve this I guess you can just hit A at the right time (like many characters have to do, since most characters can't just hold A for a rapid Jab1 like Kirby, Falcon, Fox etc. can) but that requires good reaction time, which I don't trust myself to have consistently in a tournament setting.

How does Greninja do against Sonic?

 

[Thinkaman]

Team attack should be at a ~0.6x damage ratio for competitive play, including knockback growth.

Thanks, I'll take my Nobel prize now.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

@ NachoOfCheese Even I disagree with the Eventhubs Tier List by now. Roy at 2nd place? No, he's not that good, not by a long shot. He's a solid high or upper middle tier at best and worst. And besides, I'm lovable, and some actual good things come out once in a while, you just have to find it.

@SolidSense Maybe I should stop posting. I guess this board doesn't want comic relief when they need it.

(Just so I don't get a warning, I want to say that Link's N-Air is probably one of the better edge-guarding attacks in the game. It's got decent power and knockback, and if used off stage at higher damages, it lands a good KO.)

Ik man we all love you don't worry
Don't stop posting here dude

 

[Ryu_Ken]

For Sonic, i always go against him with either Link or Ganon. For Link i only use Jabs, tilts, fsmash1, projectiles, and his grab in order to play patiently and defensively until I get Sonic to kill%. For Ganon I make use of ftilt and Nair as well as command grab, and wizkick in hard reads to get Sonic in a disadvantaged state as quickly as possible so that I can seal the stock. Don't know how practical my methods are since they've done the job pretty well on FG (and against my bro), so... fire at me, I guess. :/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Only thing Sonic really has on sheik is rage.

He doesn't struggle nearly as much at getting the KO, especially in this specific matchup. That in tandem with rage is a huge deal.

Really? I was thinking Sheik would have a good matchup against him, mainly because of needles.

Needles probably save Sheik's ass in this matchup fwiw. Without them I'd wager she'd get murdered by Sonic.

I've yet to hear about an instance where Sheik actually wins this matchup in high level play. 6wx beat Nietono, Komorikiri beat Rain, Octo beats the Sheik players that are around his level of play [such as Shu] and afaik Mr r considers Sonic to be Sheik's hardest matchup. Of course it's sacrilegious to even think about Sheik losing matchups so you're not really supposed to go there but yeah, I don't think Sheik has an advantage against Sonic. Let's just leave it at that for now.

 

[migul]

He doesn't struggle nearly as much at getting the KO, especially in this specific matchup. That in tandem with rage is a huge deal.



Needles probably save Sheik's *** in this matchup fwiw. Without them I'd wager she'd get murdered by Sonic.

I've yet to hear about an instance where Sheik actually wins this matchup in high level play. 6wx beat Nietono, Komorikiri beat Rain, Octo beats the Sheik players that are around his level of play [such as Shu] and afaik Mr r considers Sonic to be Sheik's hardest matchup. Of course it's sacrilegious to even think about Sheik losing matchups so you're not really supposed to go there but yeah, I don't think Sheik has an advantage against Sonic. Let's just leave it at that for now.

I hear it's actually Pikachu, but ok

 

[TTTTTsd]

Going on paper I'd say Sheik doesn't win vs. Sonic (I don't think she loses either) I think it's just one of her harder MUs because of how everything works. Sheik having an actual LOSING MU is probably going too far, but even is very plausible and something I could see in the case of Sonic especially, even with his kill power nerfs (it may have ARGUABLY been in his favor pre-patch with his old B-Throw among other things, U-Smash nerf is kind of a thing but mostly inconsequential, it does hurt his kill power a smidge but IDK if it factors into the Sheik MU greatly because trapping Sheik's landings is kind of weird)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Toon Link is actually kinda broken. Not much you an do against a good one unless your character is very fast or has very good range.

Toon Link can't do anything to shield until you're at B-throw KO range. The only thing stopping him from being a complete joke is Bomb Toss is faster than reaction time in close range, so he at least forces preemptive shields in close range or people to guess with Z catching items. Without that he would be the worst character in the game by far. His moveset is meh, his grab and his throws suck, and he has almost no edgeguard game when his aerials are terrible for hitting anything below him.

But to be serious, he's not that good. Even factoring that Bombs can confirm into stuff, he has almost no way to get past patient defenses.

Also Toon Link contrary to your arguments does have a disadvantage state. He's really floaty and his aerials don't have much range, and Bombs can be caught while juggling him. He's also not exceptionally hard to edgeguard, as his Up-B does not protect him very well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Going on paper I'd say Sheik doesn't win vs. Sonic (I don't think she loses either) I think it's just one of her harder MUs because of how everything works. Sheik having an actual LOSING MU is probably going too far, but even is very plausible and something I could see in the case of Sonic especially, even with his kill power nerfs (it may have ARGUABLY been in his favor pre-patch with his old B-Throw among other things, U-Smash nerf is kind of a thing but mostly inconsequential, it does hurt his kill power a smidge but IDK if it factors into the Sheik MU greatly because trapping Sheik's landings is kind of weird)

Yeah I agree. I'm pretty sure Sonic had the advantage before the patch and now it's about even.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I think this would be a good time to bring up Link vs Tink. Link has better edgeguarding tools and more range than Tink does, but struggles a bit with Tink's annoying hit-and-run playstyle. I feel this MU is like the one in melee: both have an equal amount of strengths and struggles.

 

[Illuminose]

On paper, Sheik has all of the tools to stuff Sonic. Sonic doesn't really have the tools to get in on Sheik safely, and Sheik has superior frame data as well as needles to stuff Sonic's spin dash. The issue is that Sheik has to play completely on point all the time against Sonic (this is something that Mr R has emphasized) and can be punished pretty heavily for mistakes, which can be simple things like whiffed needle tosses/fsmashes and overextensions that Sonic's sheer run speed allows him to catch. It's a matchup that Sheik has to be really patient in because pinning down Sonic and confirming kills can take a while. In practice I think it's about even because players will make mistakes, and Sonic will get opportunities for punishes.

 

[TTTTTsd]

On paper, Sheik has all of the tools to stuff Sonic. Sonic doesn't really have the tools to get in on Sheik safely, and Sheik has superior frame data as well as needles to stuff Sonic's spin dash. The issue is that Sheik has to play completely on point all the time against Sonic (this is something that Mr R has emphasized) and can be punished pretty heavily for mistakes, which can be simple things like whiffed needle tosses/fsmashes and overextensions that Sonic's sheer run speed allows him to catch. It's a matchup that Sheik has to be really patient in because pinning down Sonic and confirming kills can take a while. In practice I think it's about even because players will make mistakes, and Sonic will get opportunities for punishes.

Yup, and pre-patch these issues were expounded when Sonic had a RIDICULOUSLY good for his run speed kill throw in B-Throw (esp. with rage) which made damage building vs. Sonic really hard. MU is even cause they nerfed his dumb killing power in certain areas but before you had to play on point to stand a chance and one pivot grab near the ledge (or even a shield grab) + any small amount of rage could end stocks reliably.

Thank god B-Throw was nerfed lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think this would be a good time to bring up Link vs Tink. Link has better edgeguarding tools and more range than Tink does, but struggles a bit with Tink's annoying hit-and-run playstyle. I feel this MU is like the one in melee: both have an equal amount of strengths and struggles.

Link doesn't spam things quite as rapidly as TL, so he can't really zone TL quite as recklessly as he would other characters. This forces him to approach, which kinda sucks for Link.

However, I believe post patch, Link wins this matchup. His far superior grab game is just way too huge of an advantage to discount ESPECIALLY given how huge of a threat it is in midrange. Link is by far a better character than TL right now. He has a low% combo game out of grab, MUCH better trap setups into KOs thanks to the changes to both D-throw and D-tilt (not to mention his still superior Jab cancel game), and actually a noticeably above average edgeguard game like you mentioned. Furthermore even though Link doesn't really "outspam" TL, his zoning and camp game is overall better because he has more tools at long range that beat reaction time (Link's arrows for most purposes are WAY WAY superior than TLs because they actually can't be powershielded on reaction).

 

[Ikes]

I don't even know what to do about Sonic anymore. The local Sonic main's reign of terror has been ended by ZSS, but regardless of what character you use, I think you just need above-average reaction time to deal with Sonic, and I don't know how much reaction time can be improved.

Results from my customs on tournament this weekend http://challonge.com/HavenshineSmashInvitational I don't think they post results on smashboards but placings were like 1. ZSS, 2. Villager, 3. Pac Man/Mario 4. Fox, 5. Sonic, 5. Marth

I'm not entirely sure, but since a lot of sonics playstyle relies on speed rather than any sort of truly high damage output, couldn't Little Mac get the advantage in this matchup playing a defensive game? since all of this smashes have super armor and would power through spindashes, seems like the type of thing that could shut down a lot of Sonic's mobility.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm not entirely sure, but since a lot of sonics playstyle relies on speed rather than any sort of truly high damage output, couldn't Little Mac get the advantage in this matchup playing a defensive game? since all of this smashes have super armor and would power through spindashes, seems like the type of thing that could shut down a lot of Sonic's mobility.

The trouble is that Sonic's mobility allows him to avoid many Mac's moves and put him in disadvantaged positions really easily. One Dash Attack or grab is really rough to deal with.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

@ A2ZOMG the problem is getting Tink in a disadvantaged position. I can see how Link can win this MU once he has the upper hand with all of his dthrow combos, setups, and traps, but neutral can be really frustrating for him. Have the buffs helped him in this regard or does he still need some hard reads?

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG the problem is getting Tink in a disadvantaged position. I can see how Link can win this MU once he has the upper hand with all of his dthrow combos, setups, and traps, but neutral can be really frustrating for him. Have the buffs helped him in this regard or does he still need some hard reads?

The range buff on Link's grab (which applies to his standing, dash, AND pivot grab) is a very big deal. I don't know how else to explain it. The amount of space you can control with Link's grab post patch is kinda insane, and combined with the small ending lag buffs, this actually makes Link's grab way way safer when your opponent has to deliberately space in certain ways just to simply avoid it. Throw in the massive reward, you forget that you aren't playing Brawl Olimar.

He's STILL punishable if the opponent reads it, sure. But it's noticeably more on the opponent to make that deliberate guess to be in position specifically to punish a whiffed grab. Keeping in mind that Link's anti-airs are noticeably stronger than those of most tether grabbers.

 

[Zigoon95]

I don't know if this could help, but here in Italy one of our top players is a Toon Link main. He managed to win the biggest Smash 4 tournament in Italy so far. Here's the video of the Grand Finals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipqca5FhiUA

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't know if this could help, but here in Italy one of our top players is a Toon Link main. He managed to win the biggest Smash 4 tournament in Italy so far. Here's the video of the Grand Finals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipqca5FhiUA

I saw that set. His competition was a Ganon player, lol. That Ganon player actually beat him in Winners Semis.

For the record, I believe Ganondorf actually has the advantage vs Toon Link, and he's just mid tier.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

The range buff on Link's grab (which applies to his standing, dash, AND pivot grab) is a very big deal....

Ah, I see. It's much easier to put Tink into a disadvantage than I thought considering how the grab buff makes many of Tink's attacks UNSAFE ON SHIELD. Given that Tink has pretty abysmal options to use to break out of traps/combos along with the fact that he can't really edgeguard or protect his recovery well, I can see this MU 60/40 in Link's favor.

 

[Radical Larry]

TL vs Link, Link has the better D-Air hands down. Only in part due to it actually being safe to edge-guard with in all cases; higher knockback, better meteor properties and ending faster? I'll take that.

 

[BSP]

Team attack should be at a ~0.6x damage ratio for competitive play, including knockback growth.

Thanks, I'll take my Nobel prize now.

Do you mean all team attacks? Wouldn't that encourage throwing out powerful moves even with your partner at risk because the enemy team will get hurt more?

I think a better solution to fix G&W's bucket for teams without neutering it for singles is to have any attack from his teammate that fills the bucket receive a damage penalty. IE only 25% of the power that would usually be stored actually gets stored. That way, the strategy isn't completely obsolete as you can still get an insane bucket, but you can't do in such a way that skews risk/reward too much. Same for pocket I guess, but less of a penalty.

 

[|RK|]

I think at this point, Nintendo should change the way Oil Panic works instead of waiting time and time again for busted strategies to emerge and then modifying the projectile.

They don't balance around doubles with Team Attack on. That's really not even going to be considered.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Another option for Little Mac, except for the part where showing this off makes it not work consistently. At least it helps him get back on-stage safely due to the threat of it:

 

[moofpi]

@ Kofu Ranai, Abadango, and aMSa will be there at least.

Also the Google RT data is probably a bit generous for the general population (though perhaps accurate for gamers). People only compulsively test their reactions if they're involved in something that requires them, and that involvement is already a selection hurdle.

Yay! Based Abadango.

Ranai scares me though, you don't think he'll go custom Villager do you? I know Japan normally doesn't do customs but you have to wonder.

 

[Djent]

I kind of doubt it, but I don't think he needs customs to be a shoe-in for top 8.

 

[moofpi]

If Ranai doesn't know the custom match ups he will definitely have a harder time, but I don't think he would need customs to do well if he knows how to fight customs. Americans have been practicing how to fight ADHD no-skillager, but I don't think they know how to fight an aggro Villager of Ranai's caliber.

 

[Meru.]

Now when you say "online ladder" do you mean For Glory or does Japan have its own version of Anther's?

Japan has its own version of Anther's.

Online play?

That explains Greninja being low =V

That, and the fact no one plays him offline.

 

[Nu~]

Well, MikeKirby got rekt by Vinnie...
Doesn't seem like the Kirby V. Shiek theory holds much water

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Well, MikeKirby got rekt by Vinnie...
Doesn't seem like the Kirby V. Shiek theory holds much water

That or Vinnie's Sheik is rlly good. >.>

 

[Kofu]

@ Kofu Ranai, Abadango, and aMSa will be there at least.

So Ranai IS going. I thought someone (you?) mentioned he was. I'm excited for this. The guy has gone undefeated the last few tournaments, right? And Villager a nice buff this time (a relatively minor one given the difficulty of landing grabs for him but at least he gets more reward from a low-percent grab now).

 

[Shaya]

Vinnie is one of the best Smash players in the world (and for Smash4 it's taken him time to get that ball rolling). He really is pushing Sheik right now as this almost sole bastion of pragmatic meta advancement (ZeRo is extremely smart and a reaction god; playing almost anyone and being able to win, Rain has chosen to develop the camping/walling Sheik + isn't in our minds that much in the West, Ramin/Europe are in a similar situation). He shows what top level execution and mechanics with Sheik result in; Vinnie is working his ass off.

With that in mind, Kirby doesn't have what it takes when the weight of approaching is still on Kirby's shoulders, he has no reliable punishes, he has no kill set ups. Crouching does not help characters approach, Kirby is in a mobility crisis that he isn't overcoming at top level IMO.

But yeah, Vinnie is at top level. MikeKirby while being the best Kirby isn't on that level, yet. And the character could very well be holding him back.

 

[Radical Larry]

So me and @ Nu~ went against each other, with me and him as multiple characters, and I can confidently say that the trampoline glitch is NOT broken. In fact, it's almost useless like I originally theorized. The only thing is, is that it keeps the opponent away from Pac-Man, but it's no benefit to Pac-Man whatsoever since there aren't a lot of set ups that will allow it to function. Pac's frame data and the damage of the opponent, as well as placement of Trampoline....it's not worth it.

Secondly, I proved to him Link has a lot of things in his arsenal that makes him one of the more dangerous opponents. And that I could survive long amounts of time with great DI. The reason I lost a couple matches was because I didn't feel like I was being fair to others to go against each other. (And I could have won a 3 v 1, but a 2 v 1 is also decent).

Anyways, Pac-Man trampoline glitch, just like the Samus Infinite combo, almost useless against the right opponent.