Character Competitive Impressions

[Seagull Joe]

Hey, Seagull. What do you think of the new patch?

I like it.

 

[|RK|]

Yo, NAKAT just broke out Lucas in Grand Finals to take a game off Ally.

Also Nairo phone coaching

This is the best.

EDIT: Make that two games

 

[Patriot Duck]

Dang, Nakat could have reset the bracket if not for that unfortunate SD. Otherwise that was a pretty good showing of Lucas in a tournament setting.

 

[Shaya]

Lucas not having the same offstage/recovering issues as Ness is pretty big for him.
And what is the grab start up? It seemed to be pretty reliable for NAKAT.

AND another thing, is it just me or is running through people easier this patch? I've been confirmation biasing this in my sleep and the amount of dash through pivot grabs NAKAT got seemed... well... seamless. Kinda like in Brawl....

 

[Djent]

That was a great set. While there's obviously a good deal of transfer from , it's also evident that has his own set of not entirely overlapping strengths. I think it's telling how the latter found some success when the former (and NAKAT's other characters) failed. Ally couldn't edgeguard from the ledge with fireballs as easily and nair O-netted NAKAT a lot of strings. It's too bad Lucas lacks that monstrous fair, but I think the tradeoffs will be worth it in at least some MUs.

 

[FullMoon]

Good to hear Nakat is giving Lucas some well deserved spotlight after Ryu and Roy pretty much stole the hype.

 

[Ikes]

Brawler's a zippy little scrapper who tries to weave back and forth to get hits, whereas Gunner is a powerful zoner who creates traps. I could see that.

Scrapper, Controller, and now a Brute? I love it.

 

[Antonykun]

Scrapper, Controller, and now a Brute? I love it.

I guess a really good way to view that miis would be that the miss are representation of their archetypes

Brawlers such as Mario and Little Mac have low damage and range but make up for it with with combos and mobility

Swordfighters such as Link and Shulk have a strong emphasis on spacing and rewards usually in the form of dph or Knockback on said spacing but lack anywhere mobility and/or dps and often have terrible disadvantage states and have really bad frame data with the Mii in particular having a frame 5 d-tilt being his fastest move

Gunners like Samus and Megaman are keep away gods and trap masters while having some of the better spectrum of recoveries in terms of distance but they deal terrible dps AND dph while often having poor mobility

there are of course other archetypes in the game like the puffball ( {?}) and the Fatty () that i doubt we will see a mii of any time soon and Characters who are fusions of different Mii Archetypes such as Robin being a Swordfighter and a Gunner with more extreme versions of each archetypes weakness (Terribad mobility, recovery, and Frame Data IIRC)

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

@Ray_Kalm just got third in a 100 man tournament going only Ganon..

He lost to Sheik again twice

From the Ontario S4 Arcadian... jfc check out the sets on EvenMatchupGaming's channel they were nuts

https://gfycat.com/InsignificantImpartialHound

Ray proceeded to eat his soul later that set:

https://gfycat.com/FavoriteBareDove

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfeYe4lohsA

 

[Ikes]

@Ray_Kalm just got third in a 100 man tournament going only Ganon..

He lost to Sheik again twice

From the Ontario S4 Arcadian... jfc check out the sets on EvenMatchupGaming's channel they were nuts

https://gfycat.com/InsignificantImpartialHound

Ray proceeded to eat his soul later that set:

https://gfycat.com/FavoriteBareDove

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfeYe4lohsA

YOU DONT TAKE GANON OFFSTAGE BRO

YOU DONT DO THAT

 

[Trieste SP]

i just realized the patches are trying to turn Swordfighter into a power character
which makes sense when you compare him to brawler and gunner

Yep, I really like the buffs that he had in the patches. It definitely makes him more viable. To think most of us thought he was the worst character in the game not too long ago.

 

[webbedspace]

Umebura 17 doubles ends in VanishBucket dittos. Thoughts?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Umebura 17 doubles ends in VanishBucket dittos. Thoughts?

I think that G&W/Villager + "teammate with an appropriately abusable projectile" is inherently nuts and I don't expect that to change any time soon due to the relative ease of setting it up.

EDIT: @ |RK| what stream was that on?

EDIT 2: NVM found it. Vod with timestamp.

 

[Radical Larry]

@NachoOfCheese Even I disagree with the Eventhubs Tier List by now. Roy at 2nd place? No, he's not that good, not by a long shot. He's a solid high or upper middle tier at best and worst. And besides, I'm lovable, and some actual good things come out once in a while, you just have to find it.

@SolidSense Maybe I should stop posting. I guess this board doesn't want comic relief when they need it.

(Just so I don't get a warning, I want to say that Link's N-Air is probably one of the better edge-guarding attacks in the game. It's got decent power and knockback, and if used off stage at higher damages, it lands a good KO.)

 

[wedl!!]

pre-buffs swordsman was pretty close to being the worst character in the game, although his kit on paper was pretty decent. at least he got them. ( cries)

smashville hometown club:
basically any character that exploits the close blastzones or is relatively mobile

I know but its like seeing that one kid who was a **** to you in Middle school grow up to be an antisocial weeb who talks to other people about anime for hours on end
True story.

what does that even have to do with anything lmao

 

[Djent]

Umebura 17 doubles ends in VanishBucket dittos. Thoughts?

I think at this point, Nintendo should change the way Oil Panic works instead of waiting time and time again for busted strategies to emerge and then modifying the projectile.

 

[Kofu]

I think at this point, Nintendo should change the way Oil Panic works instead of waiting time and time again for busted strategies to emerge and then modifying the projectile.

No.

Or rather, what, did you have in mind? The move is the most functional it's ever been. If it goes back to only getting one level for a super-strong projectile I'm going to cry.

 

[Zelder]

OH WHATS THAT EVENTHUBS? WARIO IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME? WELL GOSH GOLLY **** LOOK AT THIS ************ ALL THE WAY IN B+! HUH WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT!

EAT A ****ING **** EVENTHUBS

Sorry, I was just Salty over eventscrubs putting him in bottom 3.
So thanks tier list r/smashbros

This is the most deeply embarrassing post I've ever seen.

So did you guys see the new Shi-G tier list? They left off the DLC characters cuz they're so fresh, but apparently it came out yesterday if I'm reading this correctly.

http://imgur.com/ZQH4gcR

Thoughts/angry posts in disbelief?

Edit: Also, important to note: this is a 1.07 tier list, not 1.08. So, kind of useless, but still interesting maybe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is the most deeply embarrassing post I've ever seen.

So did you guys see the new Shi-G tier list? They left off the DLC characters cuz they're so fresh, but apparently it came out yesterday if I'm reading this correctly.

http://imgur.com/ZQH4gcR

Thoughts/angry posts in disbelief?

Based almost entirely just on Japanese results I assume and effectively not factoring the patch? Because our overall competitive analysis...not to mention results in other parts of the world don't line up in several areas.

Actually who in the world has been doing anything with Mario in Japan? Shi-G almost never shows anything for him, and he hasn't exactly done spectacularly in what little they have.

 

[PUK]

OMG Ike will be buff again. Pls japanese people open your eyes, i'm not racist but still...

 

[san.]

Edit: Oh, it's still the 1.07 version that I saw previously. Nevermind

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think at this point, Nintendo should change the way Oil Panic works instead of waiting time and time again for busted strategies to emerge and then modifying the projectile.

Well, you could do one of several things:

• Nerf the damage multiplier. The easiest solution by far but also the laziest. And if overdone it could leave G&W without a meaningful spill unless filled with something like Charge Shot or PK Flash.
• Remove the ability to bucket explosions. I'm honestly not sure why explosions count as energy now (Ness and Lucas can absorb them too) but Vanish falls under this category.
• Revert to filling one stack per projectile instead of letting strong projectiles fill multiple stacks. I'm personally not in favor of this since it helps keep the enemy honest instead of basically getting a couple of "freebie" attempts.
• G&W loses stored oil upon respawn. (One level? All of it? Partial charge only, leaving a full bucket intact? There are options here.)

This is the most deeply embarrassing post I've ever seen.

So did you guys see the new Shi-G tier list? They left off the DLC characters cuz they're so fresh, but apparently it came out yesterday if I'm reading this correctly.

http://imgur.com/ZQH4gcR

Thoughts/angry posts in disbelief?

It always surprises me when Japanese players put Rosalina so much lower than American ones. I mean, A- is still nothing to sneeze at but she's still in 12th place here assuming each row is ordered. Also surprised to see Dedede so high and Ike so low, I would assume it's a symptom of heavy/low representation, respectively, especially given Ike's buffs in 1.0.8.

On a related note I really hate the use of +/- in addition to letters. This specific list limits it to A+/A/A- but it's something I don't like to see in tier lists. Granularity means nothing if there isn't a proper explanation for each level.

 

[Zelder]

Well it is a Japanese tier list after all. At least I'm almost 100% sure it's a tier list. And it's not like this is unprecedented; the Japanese tier list and the American tier list for Brawl diverge on some key points.

 

[bc1910]

That list seems hugely questionable to me even for a 1.07 list (Mario 3rd? Greninja below D3, G&W and Bowser?) but I'm gonna put it down to the Japanese meta being vastly different to the rest of the world's.

 

[Djent]

@ Kofu As it currently stands, Oil Panic cannot be highly useful in singles without being busted in 2v2 and beyond. I'd rather it get reverted to Brawl status while G&W receives other buffs (including maybe a bit of extra weight to make up for Bucket Breaking's absence) than have it remain as it is now. @ ParanoidDrone 's suggestions are also pretty good.

http://imgur.com/ZQH4gcR

My only interest in Japan's tier lists at this point is to predict which characters will get nerfed and buffed. I see they're overrating Pally in default (which means she probably won't get anything in return when Infinite Lightweight eventually gets axed...ugh). Pikachu is still criminally low, so here's to hoping ESAM wins EVO so the rat gets the nerfs he deserves. Those two placements are particularly out of whack, but I "main" those characters so they stick out to me.

 

[Nu~]

I need to see these Japanese toon links because his position just looks crazy

 

[Smog Frog]

...what is doing anything over in japan for them to think he's a+ with ? why the **** is so low? why is so low even though they have the best in the world over there? why is not up there with ?

i do, however, agree with placement. seeing people think he's top 5 in the game with ,, and the like is preposterous. imo

 

[Mario766]

I can't wait for JP Ike to be considered bottom 5 still for more buffs.

Ike has literally 0 JP players. btw

 

[Diddy Kong]

In a competitive sence, am kind of conflicted... One side of me wants nerfed Diddy to win as many matches and tournaments as possible, but the other side wants him to be left completely on his own by all top players so he "might" one day be buffed again to where he was in version 1.07. Yeah, I could say 1.05 to, but that **** might've let to a Diddy ban...

Anyway, where do we rank the character which is my username incarnated this time now?

 

[Smog Frog]

i still think he's top 10. only difference imo is that now you need to use thoughtful banana play in order to be a decent , before you could just rely on his bonkers normals and get far.

 

[Teshie U]

http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...5-128-entrants-megafox-is-unstoppable.407046/

top 12 including Charizard, Bowser and Roy.

 

[Kofu]

@ Kofu As it currently stands, Oil Panic cannot be highly useful in singles without being busted in 2v2 and beyond. I'd rather it get reverted to Brawl status while G&W receives other buffs (including maybe a bit of extra weight to make up for Bucket Breaking's absence) than have it remain as it is now. @ ParanoidDrone 's suggestions are also pretty good.

I don't disagree. It's kind of an insane move inherently but even now its usability is very limited for singles. I wouldn't say no to a few buffs in other places though

Well, you could do one of several things:

• Nerf the damage multiplier. The easiest solution by far but also the laziest. And if overdone it could leave G&W without a meaningful spill unless filled with something like Charge Shot or PK Flash.
• Remove the ability to bucket explosions. I'm honestly not sure why explosions count as energy now (Ness and Lucas can absorb them too) but Vanish falls under this category.
• Revert to filling one stack per projectile instead of letting strong projectiles fill multiple stacks. I'm personally not in favor of this since it helps keep the enemy honest instead of basically getting a couple of "freebie" attempts.
• G&W loses stored oil upon respawn. (One level? All of it? Partial charge only, leaving a full bucket intact? There are options here.)

My opinions on each of the ideas.

• Possibly. This could be compensated to some degree by slightly increasing the knockback (I don't know if BKB or KBG would be better to increase here)
• I could see this working although it would make me sad. And while it's relatively consistent there are a few outliers that you can't absorb for some reason, like the Junior Clown Car explosion and missile explosions (and Ganon's UTilt )
  
• With the move's number now I would be opposed to this completely unless they greatly reduced the lag from collecting a projectile. As it stands there's over a second of lag from collecting levels one and two, meaning that even a character like Zelda can bait you into catching Din's Fire then run over and punish.
• I'd be opposed to this from a practical standpoint as well as that the move has never functioned like this.

Oil Panic is completely useless against the following characters (nothing bucketable):
(loldittos) (possibly and , I don't know if Exploding Attack and Shuriken of Light can be bucketed; as long as she doesn't pull a Bob-omb)

It's mostly useless against these characters, especially if they know what they're doing (niche uses, possibly only from customs):


You can get quick buckets off of these but they're weak and aren't much of a deterrent (spam):


Oil Panic limits the opponent to some extent in these matchups (zoning tools):


Oil Panic can be a legitimate threat in these matchups (chargables/lots of opportunities):


The risk/reward for the move just isn't worth it in most matchups unless you get hard reads sometimes or they can't move well. I know Vanish isn't the only move that is an exploit for Oil Panic but personally I'd tweak it a bit, too.

Additionally, Djent, do you know which big-name Japanese players are coming to Evo? I'd like to know who to look out for.

 

[LimitCrown]

Oil Panic is a problem in double battles only when Team Attack is on, which is usually the case in competitive play. I'm not sure about whether there is a way to change the move without making it clearly worse.

 

[Meru.]

Based almost entirely just on Japanese results I assume and effectively not factoring the patch? Because our overall competitive analysis...not to mention results in other parts of the world don't line up in several areas.

Actually who in the world has been doing anything with Mario in Japan? Shi-G almost never shows anything for him, and he hasn't exactly done spectacularly in what little they have.

That list seems hugely questionable to me even for a 1.07 list (Mario 3rd? Greninja below D3, G&W and Bowser?) but I'm gonna put it down to the Japanese meta being vastly different to the rest of the world's.

I need to see these Japanese toon links because his position just looks crazy

This list is not representative of Japan's meta game.

The Japanese tier list is based a lot on the impressions people have of the characters and many of these impressioms come from play on the online ladder. This isn't very strange considering their online ladder is absolutely stacked and people take it quite seriously.

This explains high placings like Mario. Tbh I didn't expect him to get this high, but there are a few very strong Mario players on the ladder, and Mario is played a lot in general. There are also like two very good Samuses, hence why she's so high. Same goes for Olimar, the number 4 on the ladder is an Olimar player and he's really, really good with him. The number 2 is a Bowser Jr., which explains his generous placing. A billion of people play Toon Link so he also leaves an impression easily.

Less popular characters (Rosalina, Ness, Peach, Greninja) stand out less and thus leave less of an impression, resulting in relatively low placings on the tier list.

tl;dr it's a list entirely based on mere impressions. A lot of Japanese don't agree with the list.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Additionally, Djent, do you know which big-name Japanese players are coming to Evo? I'd like to know who to look out for.

I'm not who you're asking, but I know Abadango is going at least.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I need to see these Japanese toon links because his position just looks crazy

Toon Link is actually kinda broken. Not much you an do against a good one unless your character is very fast or has very good range.

 

[FullMoon]

This list is not representative of Japan's meta game.

The Japanese tier list is based a lot on the impressions people have of the characters and many of these impressioms come from play on the online ladder. This isn't very strange considering their online ladder is absolutely stacked and people take it quite seriously.

This explains high placings like Mario. Tbh I didn't expect him to get this high, but there are a few very strong Mario players on the ladder, and Mario is played a lot in general. There are also like two very good Samuses, hence why she's so high. Same goes for Olimar, the number 4 on the ladder is an Olimar player and he's really, really good with him. The number 2 is a Bowser Jr., which explains his generous placing. A billion of people play Toon Link so he also leaves an impression easily.

Less popular characters (Rosalina, Ness, Peach, Greninja) stand out less and thus leave less of an impression, resulting in relatively low placings on the tier list.

tl;dr it's a list entirely based on mere impressions. A lot of Japanese don't agree with the list.

Online play?

That explains Greninja being low =V

 

[Firefoxx]

Doubles is filled with bull**** strats, that's kinda the whole point. Policing that bull**** with patches seems futile to me. If BucketAbuse teams are that much of a concern, then ban those team compositions. Same for Villager pocket nonsense and any other team that is somehow too broken for doubles.

 

[Nu~]

Toon Link is actually kinda broken. Not much you an do against a good one unless your character is very fast or has very good range.

Really? I mean, his spam is kinda stupid and he gains great reward off of it, but I didn't expect him to be that good. Especially when you consider his rather poor options against shield.

When a toon link comes at me, bombs a blazing or tries to keep me out, I just F-air a hydrant towards his face and run behind it to protect me.

Pretty sure mega man can do the same with skull barrier and falco with his reflector.

 

[Makorel]

The Japanese tier list is based a lot on the impressions people have of the characters and many of these impressioms come from play on the online ladder. This isn't very strange considering their online ladder is absolutely stacked and people take it quite seriously..

Now when you say "online ladder" do you mean For Glory or does Japan have its own version of Anther's?