Character Competitive Impressions

[Zage]

Seeing as you need extremely precise timing for it to work, and you still need to get your opponent there. The problem is Pac-Man's frame data and the fact of DI and placement of the trampoline; you can only have one place to put it, directly on the ground. Anywhere else and it won't work. Then you have characters with projectiles who will be happy to see a small gap between them and Pac-Man and go along starting to use their projectile game.

The characters who can really actually punish are ones who can perform punish aerials, projectiles and can get to the opposite side. Remember, it'll be very hard for Pac Man to actually really pull this off against a highly skilled player. You have to think of the things that can make this obsolete. Remember how the "Samus Infinite" was debunked months back

I still don't follow. If you get knocked into the trampoline, you're dead, there is no way to survive sans Pac-Man messing up the input for the glitch. You cannot mash out of hitstun, no matter how hard you try.


If you walk/jump into it, you have to use your second jump (Some have to immediately jump or they'll be forced to use their recovery) or they die.

Even assuming if Pac-man misses the timing for the glitch, There isn't a single character in the game that has a projectile that's fast enough to punish anything remotely that safe. Unless you're going to count Fox's lasers, which in case I'll gladly take the 2% in exchange for possibility of deleting a stock.

I just don't see how Pac-Man is being punished for this even remotely, unless you're Up-B'ing directly next to your opponent and flubbing the glitch, but why would you do that?

 

[Mr. Johan]

How long does the opponent stay in that Trampoline-stun, I guess I'll call it, if it's used on them in midair? Do they suffer any lag at all?

If they do, and they go through the same lag as they would going trough the stage, then Pac-Jump can be a threatening offstage option for characters with committing recoveries, like Pika Skull Bash and Ike Quick Draw and Diddy Monkey Flip and whatnot. Throw it out in their line of fire beforehand, and they've got to avoid it and thus limit their trajectory for Pacman to exploit, or get hit, drop down, and then get hit by Pacman anyway.

 

[Nu~]

Depends on the character. Greninja could just come out and aim for the ledge or use one of Hydro Pump's sprays to push Pac away from him so he can land safely, Sheik's vanish is pretty hard to punish due to the reappearing windbox, Peach could just float inside the stage and come out near the ledge, etc.

Oh and I guess recovering from within the stage is not an option for Ness/Lucas since PK Thunder is likely going to hit a wall.

Yet another reason why greninja doesn't care much about the trampoline

Edit: btw, this is tested with the opponent being knocked into the trampoline while suffering hitstun, correct?

 

[FullMoon]

Oh yeah if a character like Fox or Lucario that get punished for landing with their recoveries too easily are inside the stage, they can also just aim their recoveries at the ledge and they should theoretically be able to safely return unless they don't snap the ledge for some reason such as going too far. Characters with vertical recoveries like Mario, Robin and the Links don't have that luck though.

So this exploit is at it's best if it catches you at the center of the stage since it really limits your character's options if they don't have their double jump. Close enough to the ledge it should be possible to recover even without your double jump.

And some characters just don't care about falling at all like Villager, Olimar (depending on number of Pikmin) and probably Wario, Pikachu and ROB.

So far the only character I can see that's screwed by this glitch no matter what is and Helicopter Kick unless they fall very close to the ledge. The rest I think can use their double jump and still live depending on the stage.

I kinda wish I could research this further but my sister can't spend all day with me on this.

Edit: btw, this is tested with the opponent being knocked into the trampoline while suffering hitstun, correct?

I didn't test it like that but I think in a big stage like Final Destination and Battlefield the hitstun probably won't last that long so that they can't use their recovery or double jump while inside the stage.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hilariously, this could be a Kong Cyclone counter. Whoda thought.

 

[Nu~]

@ Zage
Is the hitstun small enough for them to jump out in time?

 

[Makorel]

How does this trampoline glitch work on stages that go all the way to the bottom like Omega Wily's Castle?

 

[Nu~]

How does this trampoline glitch work on stages that go all the way to the bottom like Omega Wily's Castle?

You stay inside of the stage once you fall in as if the stage wasn't there.
You can recover if your vertical recovery is good enough.

 

[DunnoBro]

Can we make a "don't let them go to smashville" list?

People really gotta know when to get out of their safe zone. Especially when it's most of the top tier characters best stage.

 

[Zage]

@ Zage
Is the hitstun small enough for them to jump out in time?

That depends on alot of factors. What move you used, how stale/fresh it is and the opponents % being some of them. You'll have to judge it.

IMO, It follows the same logic as stun locking someone with fair after d-throw. Go for it if you think they can't jump out, do something else if you think they will. You also don't need to preemptively Up-B to get the glitch to work, so you can just wait for visual confirmation that they made contact with the trampoline.

 

[FullMoon]

How does Pac-Man do in Lylat Cruise? That seems like it would be the best stage to drop off characters with bad recoveries.

Also this glitch is pretty useless if used on a stage where you can go through the stage's ground naturally such as Delfino, Skyloft and Wuhu (when transitioning), Halberd and Kongo Jungle I'd believe.

 

[Nu~]

How does Pac-Man do in Lylat Cruise? That seems like it would be the best stage to drop off characters with bad recoveries.

Also this glitch is pretty useless if used on a stage where you can go through the stage's ground naturally such as Delfino, Skyloft and Wuhu (when transitioning), Halberd and Kongo Jungle I'd believe.

Lylat is normally annoying because the trampoline disappears for some reason when we use it near the blast zone on that stage. It's fine for us onstage though because the slants allow us to item toss fruit easily.

For this glitch, I would gladly pick it.

 

[Ikes]

with all of these infinites people have been posting, mostly those that use footstools, is there any actual place for them in competitive play? they seem too complicated and requiring of precision to actually be worthwhile. Except for the Pikachu one, that one is just easymode IMHO.

also, wouldnt this make Pac Man somewher around S tier if this doesnt get patched?

EDIT:

oh...

 

[|RK|]

Gentlemen's to Suzaku - so good lol.

 

[DunnoBro]

Main characters I think abuse smashville and should not be allowed to start there are:

Sheik
Ness
Pikachu
Mii Brawler
Villager (Maybe)

Others like Sonic, Fox, and Mario also tend to like it a lot, but have enough stages they like that good players will generally try to get you to their personal pick. Though as a general rule of thumb, players are most experienced with smashville so striking it can still be advantageous.

If you're a fast faller who dthrow > luigi cyclone doesn't work on consistently, striking it vs luigi is good too. But if dthrow > cyclone does work on you, T&C is likely where you'll end up and you can be cheesed out by the low ceiling pretty consistently.

 

[Zelder]

f

with all of these infinites people have been posting, mostly those that use footstools, is there any actual place for them in competitive play? they seem too complicated and requiring of precision to actually be worthwhile. Except for the Pikachu one, that one is just easymode IMHO.

also, wouldnt this make Pac Man somewher around S tier if this doesnt get patched?

EDIT:

oh...

That infinite doesn't work outside of practice mode.

 

[Gamegenie222]

The Pac man trampoline glitch remind me of the Mortal Kombat 4 continue screen which if you never seen the first time when your younger it can be scary. Your jumps are your continues when you succumb to it use them correctly or die.

IF you don't know what I'm talking about look it up on YT.

 

[Djent]

It's kind of depressing to think that our perceptions of top- and high-tiers could be strongly colored by lazy striking preferences. But it could be true.

/ are still redonkulous in their respective metas, though.

 

[Antonykun]

Main characters I think abuse smashville and should not be allowed to start there are:


Villager (Maybe)

clearly you know something i don't

 

[Ulevo]

Main characters I think abuse smashville and should not be allowed to start there are:

Sheik
Ness
Pikachu
Mii Brawler
Villager (Maybe)

The flaw in this line of thought is that if you ban Smashville, you are going to be dealing with those characters on a stage worse than Smashville. I fail to comprehend why no one understands this. Regardless if it is three or five stage strike, if you ban Smashville on Sheik, you are going to Battlefield, which is arguably worse. If you ban Smashville on Pikachu, you are going to Battlefield, Dreamland, or Lylat, depending on ruleset, which are all worse.

Allowing these characters to play on Smashville is not a matter of stage select laziness.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Zage and @ Nu~ By punishing with projectiles, I mean that the opponent would be far away from Pac-Man if they realize he's deploying the glitch. Characters with projectiles would try keeping Pac-Man on the opposite side of where they're at by any means necessary until the trampoline runs out, so that they wouldn't lose a possible stock.

Though characters can pretty much recover from this, and some may even try punishing Pac-Man because of this with their recovery moves. Let's not forget that some characters can and will hit Pac-Man with their recovery moves. The opponent doesn't go that deep into the ground, so they can most likely recover.

But really you two, by punish with projectiles, I never meant hitstun, I meant like keeping Pac-Man the hell away from you.

 

[DunnoBro]

The flaw in this line of thought is that if you ban Smashville, you are going to be dealing with those characters on a stage worse than Smashville. I fail to comprehend why no one understands this. Regardless if it is three or five stage strike, if you ban Smashville on Sheik, you are going to Battlefield, which is arguably worse. If you ban Smashville on Pikachu, you are going to Battlefield, Dreamland, or Lylat, depending on ruleset, which are all worse.

It's pretty matchup specific to be sure if there is worse or not (except in the case of mii brawler. smashville is bar none his best starter) but in general, those characters are pretty ridiculous on smashville. Unless your character likes playing there too, it should be avoided, or considered heavily when CPing/striking.

In the case of sheik and pikachu, you do have other bans to cover battlefield. (Though I'm not entirely certain how they function with dreamland now)

 

[Ulevo]

It's pretty matchup specific to be sure if there is worse or not (except in the case of mii brawler. smashville is bar none his best starter) but in general, those characters are pretty ridiculous on smashville. Unless your character likes playing there too, it should be avoided.

In the case of sheik and pikachu, you do have other bans. (Though I'm not entirely certain how they function with dreamland)

Again, it is not a matter of choice or match up. If you ban Smashville, you are going to wind up on an unfavourable stage. This is not the consequence of Smashville, this is the consequence of banning the medium of the stage list (Smashville) against a high or top tier character that excels on a multitude of stages. The fact that they're really good on Smashville is irrelevant.

Why do you think ESAM bans Smashville? Because he knows that most players are comfortable playing on that stage, and that even though it is a good stage for Pikachu, Lylat Cruise and Battlefield are even better, and you do not get three bans to get rid of all of them.

 

[Ffamran]

Can we make a "don't let them go to smashville" list?

People really gotta know when to get out of their safe zone. Especially when it's most of the top tier characters best stage.

Kind of unrelated, but this is a question I've been meaning to ask: what about counter-picking yourself? I don't mean in the horrible way of a Little Mac agreeing to go to Duck Hunt and getting camped by someone on the tree, but a player banning stages good for them and advising other players about stages bad for their character. The plot twist is the player knows exactly what the bad things can happen on those stages and might even excel on bad stages by being on edge all the time. Then the horrible thing happens where the player sucks on stages good for them.

 

[DunnoBro]

Again, it is not a matter of choice or match up. If you ban Smashville, you are going to wind up on an unfavourable stage.

Winding up on an unfavourable stage is matchup specific. DK, Bowser, Roy, etc, would much rather play sheik on BF than smashville.

Why do you think ESAM bans Smashville? Because he knows that most players are comfortable playing on that stage, and that even though it is a good stage for Pikachu, Lylat Cruise and Battlefield are even better, and you do not get three bans to get rid of all of them.

Nah, it's because of matchups. Hence why he still usually starts on smashville from what I see, and doesn't ALWAYS ban smashville. Though, it does seem like pikachu makes too potent use of stages in general for him to be considered strictly a "smashville abuser" comparable to mii brawler or ness.

 

[Ulevo]

Winding up on an unfavourable stage is matchup specific. DK, Bowser, Roy, etc, would much rather play sheik on BF than smashville.


Nah, it's because of matchups. Hence why he still usually starts on smashville from what I see, and doesn't ALWAYS ban smashville. Though, it does seem like pikachu makes too potent use of stages in general for him to be considered strictly a "smashville abuser" comparable to mii brawler or ness.

Why would a heavy with a wide hurtbox want to play Sheik on a stage that has platform pollution? How are they going to land? I think you are very wrong in this regard but I will avoid the topic since I do not main either character. Roy is quite new, so I will leave that alone.

Can you give me a scenario where a character can viably ban Smashville against Sheik or Pikachu, and out of the four other stages, ban one other and be placed on a stage that is not worse off?

 

[DunnoBro]

Can you give me a scenario where a character can viably ban Smashville against Sheik or Pikachu, and out of the four other stages, ban one other and be placed on a stage that is not worse off?

Custom Duck hunt vs sheik. He dominates the long-range due to mega gunmen negating default needles, but with so much free space for her to escape to, he can't really take advantage of her weakness of people being below her for him to get a kill. FD and smashville are only good if he can camp the opponent out, but he can't camp sheik out, so he has to force approaches and make the most of her disadvantaged state.

Platforms, and small stages help this alot. (In the case of T&C, the lower ceiling and nicely placed high platforms help too)

This also softly applies to default, but T&C is a lot more neutral there. Only really better than smashville for DHD due to the lower ceiling.

Generally, characters who NEED to abuse sheik's disadvantaged state due to their lack of neutral potency want to avoid fd/smashville and want more aggressively paced stages. (bowser's slam kills absurdly early on T&C due to the HIGH platforms and low ceiling. This and bowser's hitboxes are why I think bowsers like platforms)

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu

Smashville is frequently considered one of Pikachu's worst stages, with only FD arguably being worse. Town And City is about the same, maybe a little better overall since the platforms are more useful for netting KOs (something non-customs Pikachu can struggle with against a defensive opponent).

Lylat Cruise, Battlefield, Castle Siege, and Dreamland are GREAT stages for Pikachu, and if someone lets me go to one of those stages, screw Smashville lol

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Anyone else think 's priority is absolutely ridiculous? When I'm playing against him, nearly none of my combos work because he can just attack right though them.

 

[Nexin]

Anyone else think 's priority is absolutely ridiculous? When I'm playing against him, nearly none of my combos work because he can just attack right though them.

From my experience, Ryu seems to have very good frame data on many of his attacks, so there is a chance that he is breaking your combo by using an attack that comes out faster than your moves. His Focus Attack works the exact same way as it did in SF4, meaning that he can absorb one hit of any power without flinching.

I'm still trying to learn Ryu myself, but right now it seems that his biggest issue is his lack of range. Ryu's best combo starters require him to be very close to his opponent in order for them to hit. For now, if your character is able to wall him out in the neutral, that may be your best option against him.

 

[FullMoon]

The range on this recovery is simply unreal lol.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

(B+) (9.82 | ±0)

OH WHATS THAT EVENTHUBS? WARIO IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME? WELL GOSH GOLLY **** LOOK AT THIS ************ ALL THE WAY IN B+! HUH WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT!

EAT A ****ING **** EVENTHUBS

Sorry, I was just Salty over eventscrubs putting him in bottom 3.
So thanks tier list r/smashbros

 

[NachoOfCheese]

f



That infinite doesn't work outside of practice mode.

This.

OH WHATS THAT EVENTHUBS? WARIO IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME? WELL GOSH GOLLY **** LOOK AT THIS ************ ALL THE WAY IN B+! HUH WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT!

EAT A ****ING **** EVENTHUBS

Sorry, I was just Salty over eventscrubs putting him in bottom 3.
So thanks tier list r/smashbros

dude it's been long established that eventhubs is secretly run by a government agnency that gets all of their information from Radical Larry.
Jk tho literally everything radical Larry says makes 200x more sense than that tier list.

 

[Kofu]

OH WHATS THAT EVENTHUBS? WARIO IS THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME? WELL GOSH GOLLY **** LOOK AT THIS ************ ALL THE WAY IN B+! HUH WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT!

EAT A ****ING **** EVENTHUBS

Sorry, I was just Salty over eventscrubs putting him in bottom 3.
So thanks tier list r/smashbros

Who cares if a site with very limited competitive merit thinks Wario is bottom tier? I don't think any competitive player considers Wario low, they think he's definitely high.

 

[Ikes]

I think Little Mac and Ryu is gonna be one hell of a matchup. both of them having super strong frame data, kill potential, and neutral game is gonna be so fun to watch.

 

[Antonykun]

i just realized the patches are trying to turn Swordfighter into a power character
which makes sense when you compare him to brawler and gunner

 

[Quickhero]

i just realized the patches are trying to turn Swordfighter into a power character
which makes sense when you compare him to brawler and gunner

I think it's just a ton of hate mail stating how they can't make characters like Dunban good in Smash because of some of the really low reward moves Mii Swordfighter had.

I think he's just been getting buffed so that Sakurai doesn't have to release new characters to please the fans. It's a conspiracy, I tell you!

 

[Kofu]

i just realized the patches are trying to turn Swordfighter into a power character
which makes sense when you compare him to brawler and gunner

Brawler's a zippy little scrapper who tries to weave back and forth to get hits, whereas Gunner is a powerful zoner who creates traps. I could see that.

 

[NairWizard]

dude it's been long established that eventhubs is secretly run by a government agnency that gets all of their information from Radical Larry.
Jk tho literally everything radical Larry says makes 200x more sense than that tier list.

To be honest though, this topic wouldn't be the same without @ Radical Larry , and I would be sad to see him stop posting here.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

Who cares if a site that is run by ****ing oysters thinks Wario is bottom tier? I don't think any competitive player considers Wario low, they think he's definitely high.

I know but its like seeing that one kid who was a **** to you in Middle school grow up to be an antisocial weeb who talks to other people about anime for hours on end
True story.