Character Competitive Impressions

[Asdioh]

I was supposed to mm a sheik player yesterday but he left, and my region has basically no sheiks. Everyone uses all the other top tiers except maybe rosalina instead!
Did go against bloodcross' Fox though.. it was close...ish... :/
maybe pivot uptilts are the future and I need to change my control scheme. And then not mess up because if I miss the frame perfect input, I get a dash attack, and that's not good!

 

[Nu~]

So me and @ Nu~ went against each other, with me and him as multiple characters, and I can confidently say that the trampoline glitch is NOT broken. In fact, it's almost useless like I originally theorized. The only thing is, is that it keeps the opponent away from Pac-Man, but it's no benefit to Pac-Man whatsoever since there aren't a lot of set ups that will allow it to function. Pac's frame data and the damage of the opponent, as well as placement of Trampoline....it's not worth it.

Secondly, I proved to him Link has a lot of things in his arsenal that makes him one of the more dangerous opponents. And that I could survive long amounts of time with great DI. The reason I lost a couple matches was because I didn't feel like I was being fair to others to go against each other. (And I could have won a 3 v 1, but a 2 v 1 is also decent).

Anyways, Pac-Man trampoline glitch, just like the Samus Infinite combo, almost useless against the right opponent.

I didn't even go for the glitch lol. I find it unfair in a friendlies match. You also lost against my Pac-Man with your link. The fast arrows are useless against a hydrant and trampoline ruins your day if you try to approach.
Played around, had some fun, and meteor trampolined your Ganon at 60%.
It was fun, but didn't prove much.

My other friends just didn't have a lot of custom move experience. Smash ladder people don't like customs, and my friends didn't unlock theirs yet.

Nothing has changed in my mind about link. Except that falco gets rekt by meteor bombs offstage. I still only see link as a high mid tier at best even with customs.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

So now that the hype has died down a little bit and people don't think all the DLC is broken anymore, what is the consensus on Ryu? I have only seen Roy and Lucas in tournament. A lot of Falcon mains I knew are switching to Roy, and we know @NAKAT used Lucas and almost reverse 3-0'd Ally in tourney, but I haven't seen much on Ryu. My general impression is that he's not really the King of Combos considering Luigi is a playable character, but I can say he's the King of Damage Output. His Fair is Frame 6, does 15% and KOs. That's pretty incredible imo. Bair does like 16%? Bruh.

But yeah how's he looking?

 

[FullMoon]

I lost an online tournament to a Ryu today and I have to say Focus Attack -> inputed Shoryuken is a very painful experience.

 

[DanGR]

So now that the hype has died down a little bit and people don't think all the DLC is broken anymore, what is the consensus on Ryu? I have only seen Roy and Lucas in tournament. A lot of Falcon mains I knew are switching to Roy, and we know @NAKAT used Lucas and almost reverse 3-0'd Ally in tourney, but I haven't seen much on Ryu. My general impression is that he's not really the King of Combos considering Luigi is a playable character, but I can say he's the King of Damage Output. His Fair is Frame 6, does 15% and KOs. That's pretty incredible imo. Bair does like 16%? Bruh.

But yeah how's he looking?

What tournament was this?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What tournament was this?

Grand finals of this: http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete/v/6390345

 

[Ffamran]

Grand finals of this: http://www.twitch.tv/events2compete/v/6390345

It just got uploaded on Youtube too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQAWChMF4Es.

Edit: No (recorded matches of) Falco at all in that tournament... ;_;

 

[Antonykun]

So now that the hype has died down a little bit and people don't think all the DLC is broken anymore, what is the consensus on Ryu? I have only seen Roy and Lucas in tournament. A lot of Falcon mains I knew are switching to Roy, and we know @NAKAT used Lucas and almost reverse 3-0'd Ally in tourney, but I haven't seen much on Ryu. My general impression is that he's not really the King of Combos considering Luigi is a playable character, but I can say he's the King of Damage Output. His Fair is Frame 6, does 15% and KOs. That's pretty incredible imo. Bair does like 16%? Bruh.

But yeah how's he looking?

My impressions on Ryu is going to be this, if they haven't dropped him already, at least half of his day 1 player base are going to drop him.
Like Shulk he is a character only 10% of the population can hope to manage let alone be the ones who can actually play him

 

[Ikes]

My impressions on Ryu is going to be this, if they haven't dropped him already, at least half of his day 1 player base are going to drop him.
Like Shulk he is a character only 10% of the population can hope to manage let alone be the ones who can actually play him

my brother describes him as a "better doctor mario"
and it kinda shows, his doc skill transferred really well as he learned the rest of Ryu's odd game

 

[Antonykun]

my brother describes him as a "better doctor mario"
and it kinda shows, his doc skill transferred really well as he learned the rest of Ryu's odd game

explains why @ TTTTTsd is so willing to talk about Ryu tbh

 

[TTTTTsd]

explains why @ TTTTTsd is so willing to talk about Ryu tbh

LOL it's probably true. He's everything Doc was (I enjoyed Doc a lot) except good. Amazing shield options, struggles to get in (although not as bad as Doc), and is strong when he gets in.

The difference is when Ryu's STRONG he's really STRONG, Doc is just passable lol. I still play Doc a bit hahaha.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I feel like Doc is a really good character to learn. I have a friend who uses him a lot and he randomly went Sheik in tourney and was wrecking shop. I told him I didn't know he had a Sheik and he says "I don't. I just did what I do with Doc"

 

[TTTTTsd]

TBH Doc teaches you a lot about a few things, mostly what it's like to have bad mobility and understanding your options.

IDK if it PERFECTLY transfers over but he's a good char to learn if you want to understand your options in a limited scope. It's hard to explain but he's a good stepping stone char IMO.

 

[A2ZOMG]

LOL it's probably true. He's everything Doc was (I enjoyed Doc a lot) except good. Amazing shield options, struggles to get in (although not as bad as Doc), and is strong when he gets in.

The difference is when Ryu's STRONG he's really STRONG, Doc is just passable lol. I still play Doc a bit hahaha.

The main trouble I have with Ryu is juggling and edgeguarding with him is actually surprisingly difficult. Mostly because his mobility is really weird given you can't weave that much naturally.

It's not like Doc where more normal weaving means you don't need to think as hard in generic punish situations. Standard airdodge bait -> Up-B, and then there's his low edgeguards with Tornado and D-air which are conservatively within the top 20 of the cast in terms of raw effectiveness. Doc is pretty inarguably devastating in those kinds of common situations.

But yeah, Ryu does have really, really ridiculous punishes.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

TBH Doc teaches you a lot about a few things, mostly what it's like to have bad mobility and understanding your options.

IDK if it PERFECTLY transfers over but he's a good char to learn if you want to understand your options in a limited scope. It's hard to explain but he's a good stepping stone char IMO.

Well yeah. The only characters I can think of where EVERYTHING carries over are Pit and Dark Pit. Please understand.

 

[Kofu]

TBH Doc teaches you a lot about a few things, mostly what it's like to have bad mobility and understanding your options.

IDK if it PERFECTLY transfers over but he's a good char to learn if you want to understand your options in a limited scope. It's hard to explain but he's a good stepping stone char IMO.

Recovery aside (or maybe it's a part of it) Doc feels like a very... mid-strength character overall. That's obviously not enough for Smash but learning him probably helps a lot with fundamentals. A decent projectile, a reflector, good aerials, good damage, fast attacks good grab game, but iffy/bad mobility, short range and lack of disjoints, and poor recovery combine to make him feel very balanced. Powerful in the right hands (BAir, FAir, SJP, and USmash are all scary) but certainly not overpowered.

Ryu feels a little weird to me, probably because his attacks FEEL like they should KO earlier thanks to the high hitlag (to give them that extra SF flavor). I'm not good with him but he's got a lot going for him. Focus Attack legitimately seems like one of the best attacks in the game and true shoryuken is absurd (when I was practicing it in training it didn't seem any stronger, IDK if I was doing it wrong but I believe it's supposed to have more damage right?).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Oh yeah, today I found out that Kirby can crouch under Focus Attack. Mike Kirby did it like 5 times against this one dude on stream. It was just friendlies tho.

 

[Antonykun]

i remember now that i told myself a long time ago
"No, Mario is not the Ryu of Smash 4, Doc is, with Mario actually being Ken"

Now i can say i was right

 

[NairWizard]

Today I won a sizable local (and a small doubles side event) with 100% Ryu. This marks only the second time that I've ever won singles without using Pikachu for a single game (the other was the first time I used customs Mario, who is still ridiculous by the way). I won a close WF set 3-2 against a ZSS, then I won 3-0 against a Ness in GF.

Ryu is very good. He has flaws and bad matchups--and his bad matchups are against really good characters so they are relevant--and I'll probably talk more about my opinions on those matchups in another post, but despite that he has all the tools that he needs to be a major tournament threat and will be my running secondary from now on because he excels in all of Pikachu's onerous matchups minus Sheik. At this point I think that Ryu is in the bottom part of High Tier. His trapping game, reward, anti-air game, footsies in neutral, and options in disadvantage make him a competitive pick against every character in the game, while his linear recovery, slow ground/walk speed, and hitlag on shield make him somewhat exploitable by several of the commonly perceived top characters in the game.

He's a great character, perfectly designed and balanced for smash 4. Pick him up. There's no way that you will regret doing so.

 

[Pyr]

He's a great character, perfectly designed and balanced for smash 4. Pick him up. There's no way that you will regret doing so.

I don't regret playing Ryu until I accidentally tatsumaki off the stage because I did a qcb motion while jumping at someone/trying to do something and then pressed A, then fall to my death with my body full of shame.

Having A do specials was fine in concept. In practice, though... Really wish it'd be a B-Exclusive input. Prob just me though.

 

[Radical Larry]

I didn't even go for the glitch lol. I find it unfair in a friendlies match. You also lost against my Pac-Man with your link. The fast arrows are useless against a hydrant and trampoline ruins your day if you try to approach.
Played around, had some fun, and meteor trampolined your Ganon at 60%.
It was fun, but didn't prove much.

My other friends just didn't have a lot of custom move experience. Smash ladder people don't like customs, and my friends didn't unlock theirs yet.

Nothing has changed in my mind about link. Except that falco gets rekt by meteor bombs offstage. I still only see link as a high mid tier at best even with customs.

But Link completely rekt Roy up a new level.

And then there was Ganondorf, who, if I remember correctly, got early KOs with Warlock Punch extremely fast, and one time airborne (That trickshot on Battlefield). I even went a match where I used Ganondorf's least favored custom moves (3333) and used them to a more proper way. Still mad about that trampoline meteor. And then my Little Mac wasn't something you could be laughing about; he was absolutely dangerous to you with his F-Smash > U-Smash combo.

But yeah, I forgot to set Link up with his 1213 moveset, which would have made him more of a beast than one would think. But yeah, I also remember the match where the opponent Link tried to recover, only to get hit by my meteor bomb, and on the way down after hitting the second one with the sword, he ends up getting hit by that and KO'd. It was hilarious.

But really, from the looks of it, you tried going for the glitch. I might have won, but you were pretty damn good.
(And I used 3 Flame Chokes on one of your friends on Dreamland...and KO'd him thrice. The first two were meh, but the third one was just challenging it.)

 

[Noa.]

Today I won a sizable local (and a small doubles side event) with 100% Ryu. This marks only the second time that I've ever won singles without using Pikachu for a single game (the other was the first time I used customs Mario, who is still ridiculous by the way). I won a close WF set 3-2 against a ZSS, then I won 3-0 against a Ness in GF.

Ryu is very good. He has flaws and bad matchups--and his bad matchups are against really good characters so they are relevant--and I'll probably talk more about my opinions on those matchups in another post, but despite that he has all the tools that he needs to be a major tournament threat and will be my running secondary from now on because he excels in all of Pikachu's onerous matchups minus Sheik. At this point I think that Ryu is in the bottom part of High Tier. His trapping game, reward, anti-air game, footsies in neutral, and options in disadvantage make him a competitive pick against every character in the game, while his linear recovery, slow ground/walk speed, and hitlag on shield make him somewhat exploitable by several of the commonly perceived top characters in the game.

He's a great character, perfectly designed and balanced for smash 4. Pick him up. There's no way that you will regret doing so.

I have a question. Who was the Ness player? And where do you live? Just wondering.

 

[Nu~]

But Link completely rekt Roy up a new level.

And then there was Ganondorf, who, if I remember correctly, got early KOs with Warlock Punch extremely fast, and one time airborne (That trickshot on Battlefield). I even went a match where I used Ganondorf's least favored custom moves (3333) and used them to a more proper way. Still mad about that trampoline meteor. And then my Little Mac wasn't something you could be laughing about; he was absolutely dangerous to you with his F-Smash > U-Smash combo.

But yeah, I forgot to set Link up with his 1213 moveset, which would have made him more of a beast than one would think. But yeah, I also remember the match where the opponent Link tried to recover, only to get hit by my meteor bomb, and on the way down after hitting the second one with the sword, he ends up getting hit by that and KO'd. It was hilarious.

But really, from the looks of it, you tried going for the glitch. I might have won, but you were pretty damn good.
(And I used 3 Flame Chokes on one of your friends on Dreamland...and KO'd him thrice. The first two were meh, but the third one was just challenging it.)

My week old Roy needs work for real. I wish my friend unlocked his link customs, although he's in the middle of a crisis between being a good link and being a good custom link. He wants to be good without having to rely on customs (something that many anti-customs people say)

That little Mac was annoying as hell and I would have gone Pac-Man to lame you out with the trampoline, but that just wouldn't be fun. Stayed Roy and payed the price.
Definitely need to work on timing my hydrant right when I come down against a Ganon. That usmash is no joke.

I want to fight that optimal link of yours with my favorite Pac-Man set (1132)
I was practicing my freaky fruit since I haven't used it much lately. Not having a bell or key hurts, but the strawberry and cherry kill confirms may be worth it in some matchups.

Edit: Honestly, I never went for the glitch. I just like planting trampolines on the stage to mess up approaches.
And I don't know why he kept running into warlock punch...I roared in laughter every time he died from it though. Guess he didn't respect it enough, weird.

 

[moofpi]

@ Shaya I enjoy your opinions and I realized the first time I saw Vinnie for real in a GF match against Nairo right before 1.06 dropped that his Sheik was just different and realized a lot of technical potential of the character when other great Sheiks are content on just getting the Fair chains and such. "Most vicious Sheik I'd ever seen" is how I described him when I was sharing the video.

But I appreciate MikeKirby's loyalty to Kirby and pushing his metagame because he is truly a great character in this game (especially with customs). Does the copy ability of needles aid Kirby more in this match up than his Inhale or Jumping Inhale?

@ NairWizard So a common complaint I hear about Ryu is the accidental inputs during aerials that activate his special moves at bad times, especially Tatsumaki off stage or into a horribly punishable situation. I feel like the obvious answer is git gud and don't miss inputs, but that's kind of difficult in aerial chases and exchanges in smash. So just wondering, how do you make sure you don't accidentally activate specials when doing A-button attacks? Also do you have a different control set up? Thanks

 

[TriTails]

TBH Doc teaches you a lot about a few things, mostly what it's like to have bad mobility and understanding your options.

IDK if it PERFECTLY transfers over but he's a good char to learn if you want to understand your options in a limited scope. It's hard to explain but he's a good stepping stone char IMO.

Yeah. I play Doc a bit and he feels better as a starter character than Mario. But I main Luigi and his Sun-to-Pluto air mobility gap from Mario so IDK.

But to me, learning Luigi actually is a pretty deep training. When playing this character, you are forced to stay with the most awkward mobility in the entire game (I'm not going to freaking hold back. It really is). This character excels at SHACs, but he has the worst aerial mobility in the game and bottom 5 range. He has one of the better punishes in the game, but lack of traction torments you. Your mobility 90% comes from your dashing speed, but his DA sucked. You want to juggle, but you miss and can't get back to the ground because floatiness, 2nd slowest airspeed and none of his moves hits downward properly.

IMO, Luigi teaches you on how to eat a plate of one of the worst mobility, coupled with the fact that you have bottom 5 range and traction, and your floatiness primarily makes you a juggling pin. It's like push-ups. At first, you may see it as easy. Then you tried it for the first time and couldn't get more than 5 counts. But then because of your noodle arms problems you kept on trying and enduring it. And eventually you can get past 20 counts (Which is a point I actually almost achieve. Welp. I'm a ******) and you tried other sports, and you can at least learn them well because of your boosted power from days of push-ups training.

I see the same for Luigi. At first, you may think all you need to do is to 'Fireball spam. Grab. Downthrow. Dbl F-air. Repeat. Derp'. But then you try the character and find out on how helpless you are when juggled, how hard it is to get in with people with projectiles because taking to the air isn't an option (Except for like Greninja), and how hard it is to actually pull of the HooHahNado as well as punsihing due to your bad traction.

Although. It has its downsides too. You dashgrab too much if you make a habit out of it. But personally, learning Luigi has been fun to me, even though the character is skewed in terms of strength and weaknesses. I just hope Luigi can get something like revamps to 'faster but weaker Mario' because we are currently lacking in that type and Luigi being stronger than Mario feels awkward.

Welp. Forgive me's long post. I just realized how long it is lol.

 

[Ikes]

I've been playing a lot of Little Mac lately and god damn is he solid. If you follow ZeRo and AceStarThe3rd's advice you can really see where a lot of little mac players are going wrong and holy **** is he actually super well rounded and good. I've even found ways to incorporate his aerials into his gameplay, like approaching with nair or following up low% dthrows with fair or bair depending on DI. Even on battlefield, you can make some serious mixups by tomahawking onto platforms your opponent is camping and just get a dthrow on them, at high percents if you read their DI and bait an air dodge, you can land an easy KO Up B.

All in all I think Little Mac is gonna see some serious tournament presence soon enough.

Though I will say his Lucas matchup is gonna be rough. All Lucas really has to do is wall him out with PK Fire which is pretty rough to punish considering its range and KB. Though if you can manage to pressure Lucas and create a good opening, your options to punish him are absolutely tremendous.

Also Jab 1 into KO punch is a pretty valid mixup if they dont spot dodge, since if you land the B input fast enough, they probably wont have enough time to react to you dropping the jab. not a true combo, but I wanted to mention it.

 

[bc1910]

So now that the hype has died down a little bit and people don't think all the DLC is broken anymore, what is the consensus on Ryu? I have only seen Roy and Lucas in tournament. A lot of Falcon mains I knew are switching to Roy, and we know @NAKAT used Lucas and almost reverse 3-0'd Ally in tourney, but I haven't seen much on Ryu. My general impression is that he's not really the King of Combos considering Luigi is a playable character, but I can say he's the King of Damage Output. His Fair is Frame 6, does 15% and KOs. That's pretty incredible imo. Bair does like 16%? Bruh.

But yeah how's he looking?

Ryu still seems amazing to me. Probably the best character of the DLC, potentially one of the best characters in the game. He has yet to win anything big AFAIK but it's only been a week, in time I expect good Ryu players to take a lot of tournaments. I agree that he's like Shulk in that only a small amount of people will have the patience and skill to learn him to his full potential, but I think Ryu offers higher reward to his players for the time they put into him because he's more viable than Shulk. What's interesting is that in all fairness, whilst I don't expect this to happen I can see Ryu moving down the tier list because his specific weaknesses (linear recovery, poor mobility, very punishable on shield) can be abused quite easily by the best characters. If he does move down, it will only be due to the strength of certain top tiers. Overall I have very few qualms about putting Ryu in the top 10, but he doesn't crack my personal top 5 (Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, Pikachu and ZSS in that order).

I should mention that I think that, in time, people will learn to respect the **** out of Focus Attack and Ryu won't net so many kills through it. However because it demands so much respect, he will benefit from being less pressured by certain characters up close, including top tiers like Sheik and Fox.

Roy is potentially the best swordsman in the game still, but pretty unorthodox due to his sweetspot mechanics (stating the obvious I know, I just mean he plays totally differently to all the other swordsmen but is probably the most viable overall). His mobility is great, he punishes quite hard and has a very solid combo game plus some good out of shield options. I think he struggles against projectile harassment from certain characters, and his recovery is very exploitable. I see him at the bottom of high tier, maybe top of mid, we'll see how he develops. He doesn't have that "jank" factor where he can get kills off tiny mistakes at 30%, but he's ready to end you with Fsmash by the time you hit 80.

Lucas is definitely solid. I think NAKAT has proved that and I'm glad all that bottom 5 rubbish has subsided. He has a predictable but effective neutral; PK Fire and Zair are the only safe options and Lucas has below average mobility, but both of those attacks are really good options. His throw game is unreal, balanced only by his terrible grab game, but his grab is still fast enough to catch landings and punish a large number of attacks on shield. His recovery is probably better than 3.02 PM Lucas which is to say, amazing, though I'm not sure if zap jumping works in this game but he didn't even need that in PM. I think Lucas' placement is similar to Roy's, he seems like a sleeper high tier to me. I think very highly of Lucas.

 

[Luco]

You guys make me so excited to play this character. Hopefully in a few hours!! <3

Ness' magnet has like, almost no end lag anymore. Oh my goodness this is so sexy, TRY FAKING ME OUT NOW MARIO BROS!!

Seriously, if anyone is used to Ness' old magnet end lag, go try it out now. You'll really notice the difference, gah it's so good! :D

Also Larry, I can't shake the feeling you think that we're joking, but we're actually not. You've become one of the staple (if zanier) members of this thread - you're definitely a regular here in my eyes.

 

[Solfiner]

Ryu still seems amazing to me. Probably the best character of the DLC, potentially one of the best characters in the game. He has yet to win anything big AFAIK but it's only been a week, in time I expect good Ryu players to take a lot of tournaments. I agree that he's like Shulk in that only a small amount of people will have the patience and skill to learn him to his full potential, but I think Ryu offers higher reward to his players for the time they put into him because he's more viable than Shulk. What's interesting is that in all fairness, whilst I don't expect this to happen I can see Ryu moving down the tier list because his specific weaknesses (linear recovery, poor mobility, very punishable on shield) can be abused quite easily by the best characters. If he does move down, it will only be due to the strength of certain top tiers. Overall I have very few qualms about putting Ryu in the top 10, but he doesn't crack my personal top 5 (Sheik, Rosa, Sonic, Pikachu and ZSS in that order).

I should mention that I think that, in time, people will learn to respect the **** out of Focus Attack and Ryu won't net so many kills through it. However because it demands so much respect, he will benefit from being less pressured by certain characters up close, including top tiers like Sheik and Fox.

Roy is potentially the best swordsman in the game still, but pretty unorthodox due to his sweetspot mechanics (stating the obvious I know, I just mean he plays totally differently to all the other swordsmen but is probably the most viable overall). His mobility is great, he punishes quite hard and has a very solid combo game plus some good out of shield options. I think he struggles against projectile harassment from certain characters, and his recovery is very exploitable. I see him at the bottom of high tier, maybe top of mid, we'll see how he develops. He doesn't have that "jank" factor where he can get kills off tiny mistakes at 30%, but he's ready to end you with Fsmash by the time you hit 80.

Lucas is definitely solid. I think NAKAT has proved that and I'm glad all that bottom 5 rubbish has subsided. He has a predictable but effective neutral; PK Fire and Zair are the only safe options and Lucas has below average mobility, but both of those attacks are really good options. His throw game is unreal, balanced only by his terrible grab game, but his grab is still fast enough to catch landings and punish a large number of attacks on shield. His recovery is probably better than 3.02 PM Lucas which is to say, amazing, though I'm not sure if zap jumping works in this game but he didn't even need that in PM. I think Lucas' placement is similar to Roy's, he seems like a sleeper high tier to me. I think very highly of Lucas.

Wait, people seriously thought/think that Lucas is bottom 5...?

 

[bc1910]

Wait, people seriously thought/think that Lucas is bottom 5...?

Yeah. In this very thread.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wait, people seriously thought/think that Lucas is bottom 5...?

When I first got him I thought he was underwhelming but then I noticed that it was because I was playing him like I did in Brawl. I think he's better than his Brawl counterpart but I see him more of a niche character and that Ness is much better all around. I see him as basically being this game's Sonic , a character that can be insanely good in the right hands but, because of their weaknesses, probably won't get a strong following. They'll probably be 1 or 2 noteworthy Lucas players who stick around until the next game comes out, probably upsetting a major tournament or two along the way.

 

[Zelder]

Well being better than his Brawl incarnation isn't saying much; 30th on the tier list (rank E) is pretty awful. Honestly there's no way he could be as bad as his Brawl version because he doesn't have the grab releases anymore.

 

[bc1910]

Incidentally, I know some Brawl Sonic players who say that purely from a moveset point of view, he hasn't been massively improved in Sm4sh, it's just that the area where he has been improved (kill power) is really important and has been improved a lot. The stuff people often complain about like Spin Dash and laming out hasn't changed much from Brawl, apparently. Sonic was also improved a lot from the changes around him, like the removal of chain grabs, grab release combos and increased hitstun.

stuff

Totally off topic but I am constantly misreading your name as Fat Monica.

 

[xTheSilverStar]

Greninja can hitstun cancel the first hit of Shuttle Loop with Shadow Sneak and both escape the second hit and hit MK with it, so MK basically is at risk every time he uses his main kill move in the air

It doesn't quite happen here, but this is pretty much how it goes, just have Greninja get hit by the first hit of Shuttle Loop and the result is the same.

This is pretty much the only MU where the hitstun cancelling is good for something amusingly enough.

Meanwhile in Nintendo HQ:
Person 1: "A new Greninja tech has been discovered, we need a patch!!!!"
Person 2: "I'm on it, Better Nerf Greninja more, just in case"
Person 1: "Sounds like a plan"

 

[FullMoon]

It's amazing that people still think that meme is funny.

Though I am surprised Shadow Sneak hitstun cancel wasn't patched out.

 

[san.]

Incidentally, I know some Brawl Sonic players who say that purely from a moveset point of view, he hasn't been massively improved in Sm4sh, it's just that the area where he has been improved (kill power) is really important and has been improved a lot. The stuff people often complain about like Spin Dash and laming out hasn't changed much from Brawl, apparently. Sonic was also improved a lot from the changes around him, like the removal of chain grabs, grab release combos and increased hitstun.



Totally off topic but I am constantly misreading your name as Fat Monica.

You could also grab armor through Sonic's everything in Brawl. Now, half the time your grab is the one that gets interrupted.

 

[Antonykun]

Meanwhile in Nintendo HQ:
Person 1: "A new Greninja tech has been discovered, we need a patch!!!!"
Person 2: "I'm on it, Better Nerf Greninja more, just in case"
Person 1: "Sounds like a plan"

dude greninja got nerfed once in 3 balance patches (even though that shadow sneak thing should have probably left)
I wish that meme could die in a purgatory flame

oh i got ninja'd by the greninja main, how fitting

speaking of greninja he's an example oh having the stats of one archetype but playing like another. he's clearly a brawler but he lacks overall safety on his moves but his amazing mobility and servicable projectlie often means he plays like a tricky gunner

Roy is another example, this time of a Swordfighter who plays like a Brawler

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't think any of the DLC characters are especially good. Mid tier at best. They hit hard but struggle to get in and appear to lose to the same stuff everyone else does. Roy is probably the best of the three by virtue of his speed.

 

[Nu~]

The jank with this character doesn't end. Ever since the dev team took out Pac-Man's ability to drop hydrants through the stage, massive glitches are appearing everywhere in his moveset.

And I love it all!

 

[FullMoon]

The jank with this character doesn't end. Ever since the dev team took out Pac-Man's ability to drop hydrants through the stage, massive glitches are appearing everywhere in his moveset.

And I love it all!

Oh man I'm so glad I don't need to recover on the ledge against Pac-Man.