Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

Also his inputs, while more complex than most Smash things, are far from "obtuse." They're fairly intuitive and not difficult at all with a bit of practice, and that's not even considering the fact that they gave him Negative Edge to make buffering specials out of hold commands even easier! He still has his DP shortcut as well. I don't think his commands are a big problem for him =P

Right, no I agree that they are very tame and not really much of a barrier.

I just think the novelty is helping fuel this narrative of Ryu = high skill overpowered monster.

It's no secret that Smash as a community has always had this weird dual inferiority complex to the fighting game genre and e-sports as a whole.

• We dream of one day being accepted as a big successful fighting game, when we're playing a game that has outsold every other game in the genre.
• We insist that we are a legit e-sport, when we are a couple magnitudes behind the real e-sports.

So suddenly you have a traditional fighting game homage with "tricky" button inputs as a small gimmick, and everyone goes nuts.

Short range never stopped Fox or Luigi from being amazing for that matter. Ryu has all the right mobility specs, grab data, extremely solid negative state, and even shield break threat. Only problem is hitlag modifiers on several moves.

Fox has the best punish in the gmae in a large variety of situations. Ryu's would be okay but his run speed seems lacking.

Luigi has a reliable kill out of grab, a projectile that can be used to approach (and compensate for his poor speed), and the fastest overall moveset in the game including great aerials.

Ryu does not compare that closely to either. He's much more analogous to cannons like LM, Ganon, or even Mewtwo.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Tested Ryu's collarbone breaker on a shield, you can't grab him out, but you can roll after the first hit and save your shield if you want. I don't know how threatening that is now, realistically.

Also my thoughts on Ryu being good don't (or they don't aim to) represent any sort of narrative. It's...just what I think of the character. Like, I'm sorry if it sounds like that but, it's not meant to. I also don't think he's like, overpowered at all (his recovery while great has a hole, blahblah other stuff) but I do think he's very good.

But yeah shield break isn't really a concern unless they respect you too much or mash out a grab thinking they can grab you out of it.

 

[HeroMystic]

That's a pretty poor generalization to make.

The button inputs are far from the reason why I believe Ryu is a solid tournament character. I don't confuse "fun" with "good".

 

[meleebrawler]

That's a pretty poor generalization to make.

The button inputs are far from the reason why I believe Ryu is a solid tournament character. I don't confuse "fun" with "good".

Learning to manage the "light/heavy" variations of his moves is more complicated than any directional input anyway.

I'm not sure if anyone agrees with me but in my preliminary experience with I find he struggles a bit with platforms, more
specifically he doesn't shark very well thanks to that tiny uair, and shoryu is risky.

 

[Thinkaman]

That's a pretty poor generalization to make.

The button inputs are far from the reason why I believe Ryu is a solid tournament character. I don't confuse "fun" with "good".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone who feels optimistic about Ryu is being hoodwinked and bamboozled by these newfangled button commands.

I'm just saying that I think it is one of the vectors feeding this echo chamber of "Ryu is broken!"

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Legit question: does Tasumaki go through projectiles like in Street Fighter?

Also, I think we need at least 2-3 weeks to figure Ryu out. Then everything will proceed in Sm4sh as normal. For the time being, I'm just relishing in all the hype and drama Ryu has spawned.

 

[meleebrawler]

Legit question: does Tasumaki go through projectiles like in Street Fighter?

He can fly over low ones but he can still be hit if they're aimed well.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Legit question: does Tasumaki go through projectiles like in Street Fighter?

Well, Tatsu counts as an aerial I assume, so any projectile that does under 10% will be eaten by it if they come into contact with his leg hitbox. Tested vs. Luigi fireball. (Fresh damage)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, Roy is pretty good, probably high tier. Counter goes active on f6 and hits approximately as hard as Power Vision, up-B from the ground has super armor starting on f4 and kills around 100% (it has far more KO power from the ground). A lot of his stuff is deceptively safe when you factor in how the range plays out (a lot of characters get really puny punishes on whiff fsmash just because by the time they get all the way past that gargantuan range he's almost free to act), and his kill power is just crazy (he seriously kills as easily as Ganon, on a typical character fsmash strong hit uncharged kills at center stage around 90% with middling rage). His jab is also one of those moves that is way better than it seems at first; he can play the disjoint zoning game honestly better than Marth because he has a jab. We also tested it, and his run speed is nearly identical to Sheik's except with big grab range. His uthrow is a Marth-esque kill throw ("okay"), dthrow is shenanigans, and I don't know why he has the other two throws. Either way, he's a solid and robust character, likely the best swordsman in the cast.

Ryu is definitely not broken. I think he's interesting and has potential, but his mobility is pretty garbage. I have no idea what to do with him about run-away Sonic other than always be right on 50-50s which is pretty poorly sustainable. Ryu's footsies are god-like, but his vertical game is bad too so basically he wants to fight characters on a flat stage who have to box with him. Any way to force him out of that comfort zone hurts him a lot; I think he has enough tools he can probably deal (that bair is so good) but he does have issues. I think he's pretty much what Little Mac should have been all along. He can do really well, but man, he can do so badly. Also having to c-stick everything is obnoxious; those special moves being on A as well as B is really questionable design even if you can work around it.

Lucas seems comically bad. I'm honestly not sure why they even added him in. Like, am I missing something, or is his dair now useless? Does he have any good moves aside from jab, fsmash, and fair?

 

[bc1910]

Ryu's moveset is the reason many people, myself included, think he's good.

I think the most important things about his inputs realistically are not that they are different, but that he has different versions of B-moves like Shoryuken which are almost always better than the normal B-moves when you use different inputs. Also with his light and heavy hold-the-button thing, giving him more attacks than most characters. The changes the inputs make to his moveset are important, not the inputs themselves.

@ Amazing Ampharos All of Lucas' throws are extremely good (the grab is bad though). I think Ftilt and Uair are good too. I think he's a good character.

 

[adom4]

So, Roy is pretty good, probably high tier. Counter goes active on f6 and hits approximately as hard as Power Vision, up-B from the ground has super armor starting on f4 and kills around 100% (it has far more KO power from the ground). A lot of his stuff is deceptively safe when you factor in how the range plays out (a lot of characters get really puny punishes on whiff fsmash just because by the time they get all the way past that gargantuan range he's almost free to act), and his kill power is just crazy (he seriously kills as easily as Ganon, on a typical character fsmash strong hit uncharged kills at center stage around 90% with middling rage). His jab is also one of those moves that is way better than it seems at first; he can play the disjoint zoning game honestly better than Marth because he has a jab. We also tested it, and his run speed is nearly identical to Sheik's except with big grab range. His uthrow is a Marth-esque kill throw ("okay"), dthrow is shenanigans, and I don't know why he has the other two throws. Either way, he's a solid and robust character, likely the best swordsman in the cast.

Ryu is definitely not broken. I think he's interesting and has potential, but his mobility is pretty garbage. I have no idea what to do with him about run-away Sonic other than always be right on 50-50s which is pretty poorly sustainable. Ryu's footsies are god-like, but his vertical game is bad too so basically he wants to fight characters on a flat stage who have to box with him. Any way to force him out of that comfort zone hurts him a lot; I think he has enough tools he can probably deal (that bair is so good) but he does have issues. I think he's pretty much what Little Mac should have been all along. He can do really well, but man, he can do so badly. Also having to c-stick everything is obnoxious; those special moves being on A as well as B is really questionable design even if you can work around it.

Lucas seems comically bad. I'm honestly not sure why they even added him in. Like, am I missing something, or is his dair now useless? Does he have any good moves aside from jab, fsmash, and fair?

Roy's F-throw is good for tech chasing mid %, B-throw is kinda meh though.

 

[Yonder]

Lucas impressions:

Decent character.

Zair is great range wise, covers a lot of distance. Throws are amazing and kill early but whiffing them results in a massive amount of lag. D tilt is noteworthy as it sets up to so many moves like grab, f smash, f tilt, etc. Dair is the most miserable, pathetic excuse for a spike ever it's so bad you shouldn't even bother using it offstage against anyone but Mac. Down B is great to slow momentum, and it even spikes slightly better than dair. U smash covers lots of space of course, I don't know if it kills as early as brawl though. Err...that's all I got, probably a solid upper mid tier, nothing special. Just never use dair it's awful.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Roy's F-throw is good for tech chasing mid %, B-throw is kinda meh though.

Yeah, we looked into that and it seemed okay, but dthrow and a 50-50 between poking non-action with the sword or up-B to beat out an airdodge or nair seems a lot stronger even at the percents dthrow doesn't actually combo. Dthrow is just mix-ups for days, and if you're wrong on that defense, you take almost 20% and die early. Roy's dthrow is actually crazy good, and that's the main reason I wouldn't fthrow very often (as a surprise tactic I think it's okay though).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Luckily Lucas has a second meteor in his bair, and it should be much stronger.

I was mucking around with Ryu a bit and trying to do dtilt > Tatsu-whatever, but kept getting Hadouken instead since it read a QCF + B input. Then I remembered that Tatsu's input is QCB + B and the cancel worked, although I can't remember if it was a combo.

My point is that his alternate inputs look like they can both help and annoy the player depending on what they want to do.

 

[TTTTTsd]

IDK where I am on Ryu but I think he is, at the very least.....a very good character that I plan on playing since he seems pretty tournament viable IMO.

 

[Pazx]

Went ahead and tested it. If you SDI properly you can wiggle away from it before it becomes an actual infinite. I imagine with really good (not one handed) SDI, you could get out of there pretty easily because of the hitlag loool. And yes, I tested it on Fox.

Will it setup into kill confirms regardless? Why yes, yes it will.

Remember, always test for SDI when stuff like this is a thing. CPUs generally don't properly SDI out of anything. Two sticked SDI would probably send Fox pretty far away from Ryu enough to gain his bearings.

Ryu's hitlag is another thing not often talked about, but it's a pretty noticeable difference that gives you more reactionary time to properly DI/SDI out of things when Ryu hits you. Worth noting I think.

Dual-stick (S)DI doesn't work in this game and never has to my knowledge.

 

[|RK|]

I'm loving D-Throw to up-B. Return of my Melee main (I mean, I played Kirby there too, but he was extremely bad).

 

[hype machine]

ZeRo thinks falcon got nerfed because Him and m2k placed 1st and 2nd at Chokagai (Japanese tournoment)while using falcon in some matches, apparently sakurai was there as well. Just theory crafting but I also think Sakurai nerfs characters who wins tournoments not wether they are good or not

 

[Pyr]

Ah... But can the first hit of Roy's Up-B instakill Jigs like it used to be able to? This is what I need to know. (at work, so I can't test)

 

[Firefoxx]

I

ZeRo thinks falcon got nerfed because Him and m2k placed 1st and 2nd at Chokagai (Japanese tournoment)while using falcon in some matches, apparently sakurai was there as well. Just theory crafting but I also think Sakurai nerfs characters who wins tournoments not wether they are good or not

And I think ZeRo has too high of an opinion of himself and that Falcon deserved that u-air nerf regardless

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dual-stick (S)DI doesn't work in this game and never has to my knowledge.

Ah, you can't? I see. I was just making sure in case you could, but good to know! Just didn't want to leave any bases unchecked.

 

[Zorai]

https://twitter.com/himo9/status/610152383797166081

Are we banning Ryu yet?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Already posted and confirmed to be a false infinite. Check a page or two back, no SDI testing was applied even though you can SDI out of that due to increased hitlag on Ryu's moves.

 

[FullMoon]

D-Air is probably the move I use the least when I play Lucas. I just can't find much use for it.

 

[Ulevo]

Worth noting that Roy's up throw serves as a kill throw, and any combos he gets out of down throw are artificially stronger because of just how good his pummel is. I do not know how many of you saw the recent pummel tier list video published, but Marth had one of the best, and Roy is equally as good at least. At mid % I am able to get at least 6% before throwing against a mashing opponent in to a combo.

I do not know how strong Roy is, but he is definitely a good character.

 

[san.]

Ike's new fair hitbox begins here, credit to @Rango

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHf4qnwUkAAAf75.jpg:large

 

[bc1910]

I'm starting to think Roy is as strong as Lucas, possibly stronger, I'm finding it hard to decide. I think they're both good, honestly. Lucas seems to be getting some mixed reactions which surprises me since he seems very strong in some key areas.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I'm in love with Roy. Don't care where he ends up on the tier list. Just love the explosions everywhere.

 

[Firefoxx]

Ike's new fair hitbox begins here, credit to @Rango

Damn, that's actually a pretty big buff

 

[bc1910]

Oh, and where does everyone think Diddy will end up? To recap, the confirmed changes are his Uair hitbox being significantly smaller, Uthrow down to 5% from 8% and Dthrow up to 7% from 6% but with more knockback so it stops comboing a lot earlier, it no longer combos at all at kill percent. Oh and I think Dtilt's damage was nerfed?

Uair apparently has a little more ending lag (2 frames, like the nerf his Fsmash got) but it's probably better to wait for confirmation on that.

His throw game is quite a bit weaker now and Uair is quite a bit worse. I feel he'll end up high tier though and probably still a top 15 character, he still has great frame data and hitboxes on most of his moves and Dthrow still allows for excellent damage racking combos at low to mid percents. It's his high percent game that has suffered mostly, although I guess many aspects of his game are a little weaker since he used Uair for so many things.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It seems that Roy and Ryu are both pretty much agreed on as being REALLY good characters. Nice to see the DLC pick up the pace, Mewtwo could be viewed as relatively disappointing (even if he was interesting for a bit) so it's nice to see two really viable chars. Verdict on Lucas is still shaky IMO, I have no idea what to make of him.

 

[Ulevo]

The Diddy nerf is unfortunate. No one was complaining about the character after the last patch and the only competent player winning anything was Zero. Really unnecessary.

It seems that Roy and Ryu are both pretty much agreed on as being REALLY good characters. Nice to see the DLC pick up the pace, Mewtwo could be viewed as relatively disappointing (even if he was interesting for a bit) so it's nice to see two really viable chars. Verdict on Lucas is still shaky IMO, I have no idea what to make of him.

I think he is bad.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Diddy nerf was unnecessary imo.

 

[FullMoon]

Lucas has some really great punish power, if you leave yourself open he can really bring the pain. An Up-Smash read is all it takes for Lucas to turn the tables and it's not even that hard to land.

Having 2 very reliable kill throws is really good too, and his D-Throw is amazing.

 

[Thinkaman]

Lucas seems comically bad. I'm honestly not sure why they even added him in. Like, am I missing something, or is his dair now useless? Does he have any good moves aside from jab, fsmash, and fair?

This is an excellent question, and I think I have an answer!

Zair. Zair is bananas.

Lucas zair has no lag (literally zero?) and does jsut enough hitstun to true combo into d-tilt or jab, or rarely f-smash. It's not like Brawl Samus; fishing strictly for harassment damage is not a winning strat, Lucas has to convert hits into damage.


Lucas also has great throws (including followups to d-throws), held back by poor grabs. However, d-tilt and his jab can encourage blocking, so grabs aren't entirely unreasonable. Nair is also an okay move with minimal ending lag and landing lag.

All this "Lucas is better than Ness" talk is non-sense, but Lucas does not seem bad. Dair is just a joke on non-floaty characters, which is sad.

 

[HeroMystic]

Diddy's U-air nerf was nice if only because it was a really dumb hitbox in the first place.

Everything else wasn't needed.

 

[Ffamran]

Whoa... Why does Ryu's moves have hit lag?

 

[Pyr]

Does Lucas's Down Smash still fill G&W's bucket? It did in Brawl IIRC. Could be miss-remembering.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Whoa... Why does Ryu's moves have hit lag?

To give them that meaty SF2 feel. As described in the direct, everything with Ryu was done to make him feel like an SF char. They did a good job.

 

[Ffamran]

To give them that meaty SF2 feel. As described in the direct, everything with Ryu was done to make him feel like an SF char. They did a good job.

I know, but whoa, hit lag might bite him back. Lucario's hit lag could take a pointer from Ryu, though...