Character Competitive Impressions

[san.]

Mii swordfighter's 12->14% bair change transforms him into a much better character IMO. Swordfighter had a huge weakness landing, and the bair change now gives him one of those, as well as a decent aerial kill move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ A2ZOMG Tipman murders Ryu out of everything.

Probably doesn't beat command DP though. You have to semi-spike Ryu in the first place to have that setup. Ganon however probably does surprisingly well against Ryu because he has a command grab.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why does Shoryuken have a truck of a hitbox in front of it? Makes spacing against him to force bad reactions impossible for non-disjoint characters.

Bruh

Rising

Dragon

FIST

 

[TTTTTsd]

Probably doesn't beat command DP though. You have to semi-spike Ryu in the first place to have that setup. Ganon however probably does surprisingly well against Ryu because he has a command grab.

This. I mean, Ryu is amazing (probably Top 5) but I don't think he's without his actual problems. Mostly doofy recovery (incredible horizontal, VERY lackluster vertical + susceptible to Sheik needles offstage, anything of the sort) and the way he moves in the air.

I can't see a bunch of Ryus coming in and taking every event, s'what I mean =P. He's definitely SUPER good though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yo...Marths jab is REAL

 

[warionumbah2]

Inb4 little Mac is a soft counter to Ryu

Its funny cuz Dudley beat him in SF3.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Its funny cuz Dudley beat him in SF3.

He doesn't beat him in SF4, does he? I tried him out in that game, and he feels pretty okay to me.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Overall though I'm really enjoying Ryu in Smash 4. I feel like he clicks with me, and has everything I want in a char + SF was like, my first fighting game ever (good old Champion Edition on the Genesis 6 button pad...those were the days...)

To talk about more options with Ryu, SRK can hit through platforms near the ledge kind of like Marth's Up+B. If you ledgedrop, jump up and time a hadouken perfectly, it can glide across the ground too. Mostly superficial but maybe good with Shakunetsu?

 

[The Light Music Club]

So Roy is like 1000000000X better than he was in melee. So happy. I think I might stop playing Pikachu, and have my mains as Palutena, Roy, and Dr. Mario now. Not 100% sure. I like Roy's early combo of down-throw up-tilt up-tilt at low percents.

 

[Blobface]

I might be biased because Ganon seems to have a lot of things Ryu doesn't do well against (disjoints, semi-spikes, command grabs, etc.), but Ryu just doesn't seem that great to me. Definitely high-tier, but certainly not some kind of character-invalidating top-tier monster.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I might be biased because Ganon seems to have a lot of things Ryu doesn't do well against (disjoints, semi-spikes, command grabs, etc.), but Ryu just doesn't seem that great to me. Definitely high-tier, but certainly not some kind of character-invalidating top-tier monster.

He's probably not broken enough in neutral to invalidate characters (hitlag modifiers imo are his main weakness), but his reward is stupid good and AFADC gives him a lot of mobility and ways to get out of bad situations for free. Plus has legit shield break threat and an 8 frame D-air meteor Smash + invincible uppercut. I'd say clearly top tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Apparently, Charizard's Uthrow is rivaling Mewtwo's.

Without DI, Charizard's kills sooner. With DI, Charizard's kills later.

 

[Ikes]

I've got a pretty bold claim to make.

Lucas will surpass Ness in the tiers by a strong margin.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've got a pretty bold claim to make.

Lucas will surpass Ness in the tiers by a strong margin.

Can't be a strong margin considering that Ness is generally considered top 10

Don't really see room for Lucas to be more than one spot above Ness either, judging by the company that's up there.

 

[LiteralGrill]

HOWS ABOUT ANOTHER BOLD CLAIM!?!?!?!?

I think Mewtwo might have some chance against Ryu, though it might not be any more than even. His charge shot eats through his projectiles and specials, and forces him to approach where if he makes a mistake Mewtwo can punish. If his light weight makes that too tough (which could be likely) Maybe Samus, Lucario, or other characters with something strong behind them could possibly have a place.

 

[Ikes]

HOWS ABOUT ANOTHER BOLD CLAIM!?!?!?!?

I think Mewtwo might have some chance against Ryu, though it might not be any more than even. His charge shot eats through his projectiles and specials, and forces him to approach where if he makes a mistake Mewtwo can punish. If his light weight makes that too tough (which could be likely) Maybe Samus, Lucario, or other characters with something strong behind them could possibly have a place.

Ryu seems to struggle to some degree against projectile users/disjoints. I imagine he'll have some weird low/mid tier matchups, probably going even with mewtwo, Toon Link (Who I might be biased towards but he's got a lot of options for ruining approaches and rushdown playstyles, two things that Ryu somewhat relies on as a very aggro character), Link possibly, though his poor mobility might get the better of him here, Pac Man seems like it could be iffy, not sure how this one would go, Olimar could potentially beat out Ryu if he plays extra safe, since he has so many disjointed moves and very potent kill ability (with blue pikmin uthrow and purple pikmin smashes this could potentially be even or maybe in Olimar's favor)

I definitely think that Wario has the tools to really give Ryu a hard time, what with his incredibly potent commend grab that eats through disjoints like butter (so Ryu, being someone with few disjoints and only one projectile, will struggle especially with this), Bike is really good as a projectile and tossed item (ESPECIALLY burying bike, which deals the same damage as stock bike, but with more HP and heavier gravity so it hits more, also burial is very potent here since it seems to be much more difficult to mash out of), The only thing Wario would have to watch out for here is his lackluster range, so if a Wario plays defensively and forces Ryu's approach, I can see this being in Wario's favor.

I definitely think that Ryu has all the attack options and kill potential to be A/maybe even S tier, so these matchups are mainly just speculation. Someone mind looking into these for me? Especially wanna see how he fares against Wario and Mewtwo here.

 

[HeroMystic]

I might be biased because Ganon seems to have a lot of things Ryu doesn't do well against (disjoints, semi-spikes, command grabs, etc.), but Ryu just doesn't seem that great to me. Definitely high-tier, but certainly not some kind of character-invalidating top-tier monster.

Command grabs mean Ryu's mix-ups are more limited since he can't abuse FADC. However, Command Hadoken is legit pressure and Tatsu gives him a surprising amount of speed with a moving hitbox, and he still gets insane reward off a hit confirm that rivals Ganondorf and he doesn't have the drawback of having poor air speed (though he does have poor control). Even if he doesn't invalidate anyone I don't see him losing to any character that isn't a super campy Sheik.

The fact that FA super armors through any attack that isn't multi-hit gives him a lot of freedom, even against high disjoints. I don't see any CQC character except maybe Luigi beating him, and I'm thinking that can just be even instead.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So the distance on Lucas's PKT2 is INSANE. I was offstage in the magnifying glass on Miiverse and made it back easily with just that.

 

[Staticky]

so does sheik but she's still S tier

it's not the effort taken to use a character but rather how good they are at peak levels of performance. when a purchased character exceeds everyone else at peak performance, it's pay to win.

So your saying League of Legends is pay to win? LOLOLOL

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon got nerfed pretty hard, uair was his only reliable way of killing vertically and now it's gone. Does 2% less damage and kills 25% later than before.

 

[FullMoon]

Man Lucas's Up, Forward and Back throw all kill.

Forward Throw kills Ness at 140% at the ledge and 10% earlier with 100% rage. Not that great but it helps in a pinch.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Can someone link me to the patch notes thread? Has that much changed?

Y'know besides 3 additional characters.

 

[Ffamran]

Falcon got nerfed pretty hard, uair was his only reliable way of killing vertically and now it's gone. Does 2% less damage and kills 25% later than before.

It kills less, right? Falco's kills about 30% later now, lost a sour-spot, the body hit, that could be used to hit confirm things in the air and on the ground, and it acts like other flip kick Uairs where it sends people depending where he hits, but since Falco does a front flip, he's likely going to send people more horizontal if he's hitting from the front while Captain Falcon can send people more vertical because he kicks from front to back - more likely to catch people and send them up -, and oh, it does 1% less damage with probably the knockback screwed to hell and back. Falco's Uair is a weaker kill option and became more generic instead of this powerful, average speed Uair that could make use of its sweet-spot and sour-spot. Captain Falcon at least has the speed to abuse it, Falco's going to have hell when people DI away from him as he slowly drifts away from them. It wasn't even Falco's reliable way to deal damage or even a reliable kill option since Falco needed to be at the right position in a dangerous area, near the ceiling, to Uair someone through.

 

[Superbat]

Falcon got nerfed pretty hard, uair was his only reliable way of killing vertically and now it's gone. Does 2% less damage and kills 25% later than before.

Falcon will survive. He still has his bonkers air dodge frame traps and 7+ Other kill options.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bold Claim: Ryu's dismal reach will compromise his neutral to an extent and leave him mid-tier at best. People gushing over his numbers, fancy acronyms, and obtuse inputs will be underwhelmed when he proves to be just a mid-point between Little Mac and Ganon.

Bold Claim 2: Lucas's zair and throw options are sick, but the faster fall speeds of Smash 4 inhib his aerial game. This combined with worse frame data (including no more quick pivot grab) will leave him lacking.

Bold Claim 3: Roy is way better than in Melee, but so was Mewtwo. His poor aerial game and crappy jab will never redeem a character whose central paradigm is antithetical with ideal spacing.

Summary: 3 overrated mid tiers.

 

[Trifroze]

Also one thing I found with Ryu is that even though he has very low landing lag and high damage output on his aerials, they aren't safe on shield because every time he connects he freezes into the air for like half a second.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bold Claim: Ryu's dismal reach will compromise his neutral to an extent and leave him mid-tier at best. People gushing over his numbers, fancy acronyms, and obtuse inputs will be underwhelmed when he proves to be just a mid-point between Little Mac and Ganon.

Bold Claim 2: Lucas's zair and throw options are sick, but the faster fall speeds of Smash 4 inhib his aerial game. This combined with worse frame data (including no more quick pivot grab) will leave him lacking.

Bold Claim 3: Roy is way better than in Melee, but so was Mewtwo. His poor aerial game and crappy jab will never redeem a character whose central paradigm is antithetical with ideal spacing.

Summary: 3 overrated mid tiers.

@ Thinkaman Thoughts on the Marth/Lucina/Ike/Charizard/Link buffs?

 

[IndigoSSB]

I was hoping for a buff for Falco. Now I'm sad.

I don't know if it's a bold claim, but I think Shiek beats Ryu in the matchup. It's just a feeling for now, I need to test the character a bit more.

 

[Ikes]

Can't be a strong margin considering that Ness is generally considered top 10

Don't really see room for Lucas to be more than one spot above Ness either, judging by the company that's up there.

Ness could also go down. that's a possibility.

and as it stands, I feel that Lucas is better than Ness, simply because he has more aggressive options than Ness does (that and two kill throws)

 

[Thinkaman]

@ Thinkaman Thoughts on the Marth/Lucina/Ike/Charizard/Link buffs?

Haven't looked at Link at all, not even sure what the buffs are.

Ike's changes seem... nontrival, but I'm not sure they will move him much. I'll want to play around with/against f-tilt in particular more to see.

Marth/Lucina jab change seems great for them.

Charizard throw changes are a pretty big deal, but unlikely to move him past mid.

I like the Zelda changes too, they help her pretty significantly. Nair and usmash are two of Zelda's only moves that are reasonable to land.

 

[FullMoon]

Well looks like Fox has competition now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

To confirm on that move from Ryu, that trick usually only works on Fastfallers. Did they test how SDI and DI affected it, because that sort of thing was like, the "Rosalina infinite vs. Falcon" where SDI broke it. I imagine it's even easier to SDI/DI out when you have the increased hitlag that Ryu incurs.

Can we test this on a non-CPU opponent so misconceptions don't occur?

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Well looks like Fox has competition now.

Ryu is definitely gonna get nerfed in the next patch.
Dangit Japan, why can't you keep your mouth shut?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Went ahead and tested it. If you SDI properly you can wiggle away from it before it becomes an actual infinite. I imagine with really good (not one handed) SDI, you could get out of there pretty easily because of the hitlag loool. And yes, I tested it on Fox.

Will it setup into kill confirms regardless? Why yes, yes it will.

Remember, always test for SDI when stuff like this is a thing. CPUs generally don't properly SDI out of anything. Two sticked SDI would probably send Fox pretty far away from Ryu enough to gain his bearings.

Ryu's hitlag is another thing not often talked about, but it's a pretty noticeable difference that gives you more reactionary time to properly DI/SDI out of things when Ryu hits you. Worth noting I think.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Focus Attack is probably one of the best counters in the game (if it's considered one). If the opponent gets caught in it, SRK will kill confirm at mid-high%. This makes approaching Ryu at high% very intimidating.

 

[DanGR]

Bold Claim: Ryu's dismal reach will compromise his neutral to an extent and leave him mid-tier at best. People gushing over his numbers, fancy acronyms, and obtuse inputs will be underwhelmed when he proves to be just a mid-point between Little Mac and Ganon.

Not too bold a claim, imo. His hitboxes are really small in some key areas.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm okay with wherever Ryu ends up but I can't see him as an outright bad character lol. I'm playing him regardless cause he's a lot of fun but he's got a lot of options at his disposal that are very, very good.

Also his inputs, while more complex than most Smash things, are far from "obtuse." They're fairly intuitive and not difficult at all with a bit of practice, and that's not even considering the fact that they gave him Negative Edge to make buffering specials out of hold commands even easier! He still has his DP shortcut as well. I don't think his commands are a big problem for him =P

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Anyone been talking about how characters with low ducks (wii fit, kirby, etc) can duck under all forms of hadouken?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bold Claim: Ryu's dismal reach will compromise his neutral to an extent and leave him mid-tier at best. People gushing over his numbers, fancy acronyms, and obtuse inputs will be underwhelmed when he proves to be just a mid-point between Little Mac and Ganon.

Short range never stopped Fox or Luigi from being amazing for that matter. Ryu has all the right mobility specs, grab data, extremely solid negative state, and even shield break threat. Only problem is hitlag modifiers on several moves.

 

[FullMoon]

Anyone been talking about how characters with low ducks (wii fit, kirby, etc) can duck under all forms of hadouken?

Yup, Greninja can duck under all of them, just barely though.