Character Competitive Impressions

[Ulevo]

@ Seagull Joe

How do you feel about the Meta Knight match up after the nerfs. Previously Sonic was viewed as one of if not our worst match up. Some players feel it's much closer to even now. I would like to hear a Sonic's perspective on this, though I am not sure if you regularly play any decent Meta Knights.

 

[Antonykun]

its weird seeing Seagul joe and Gheb having a conversation all i think is a pidgeot and an arcanine talking.
anyways on Sonic vs Villager I think i see what you mean. The absolute biggest issue with sonic as villager is that he will never die in a timely manner and that is so frustrating

 

[warionumbah2]

To my knowledge, Seagull only played against Unknown who isn't good at using MK.

Would be shocked if he played any other MK.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I love how kirby is mid-low tier and he's pretty much the only character there that goes even besides the other top characters

feels good to play kirby

Metagame

Sagat in Vanilla SFIV steam rolls a ton of characters but Dhalsim who is low tier had slight advantage vs him and has had advantage in EVERY game they have ever appeared in together. Sim's archetype simply beats Gats.

Just because a character is low tier doesn't mean they auto lose to a top tier.

It's how the chars traits and abilities interact at the highest level of play.

That is metagame.

 

[HeroMystic]

Sonic is not -2 vs Fox wtf

For what it's worth, Espy believes Fox wins vs Sonic solidly as well.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Metagame

Sagat in Vanilla SFIV steam rolls a ton of characters but Dhalsim who is low tier had slight advantage vs him and has had advantage in EVERY game they have ever appeared in together. Sim's archetype simply beats Gats.

Just because a character is low tier doesn't mean they auto lose to a top tier.

It's how the chars traits and abilities interact at the highest level of play.

That is metagame.

Another example is Pichu having a good matchup against Fox but

Come on

Pichu

 

[Emblem Lord]

Get a grab.

Have fun.

Yeah...pichu

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@ Seagull Joe I'm curious as to why you think Sonic has a +3 advantage over Ike. Ike's actually one of the few characters who can safely challenge his spin dash thanks to how fast Ike's b-air and u-air are.

@ Seagull Joe

Ike is tied for 9th fastest air speed, and has the same run speed as Kirby. The fact you think Ike is slow in the air suggests that this is one MU that does not fall in your range of "I've played 80% of this MUs".

Ike vs Sonic is the MU in SSB4 I have the most off line experience in. By a fair margin. As in I have a 100% win record against Sonics with my Ike in tournament.

Its was a 50-50 MU before customs and before the most recent patch. Ike has very little problems dealing with Spin Dash and all of its mix ups in general. Ike can also play fast enough with his auto-canceling aerials and Jab/Dtilt/Grab game to not leave Sonic with much (or anything) to punish much like how Sonic is fast enough to leave Ike with minimal chances to land a hit. Both can wrack up damage on the other quickly if they DO get in and land a solid hit finally. Their tools worked in a way that the winner was strictly whoever could get inside the other person's head better.

With the patch however, Sonic is not going to have an easy time killing at all. Half of the time I died it was to Bthrow. That is no longer the case. I firmly believe that its now probably 55-45 Ike's favour. Customs gets interesting in terms of Sonic's Side B customs vs Ike's CQC and I haven't gotten to play that one out. Given how Ike's CQC works however it most likely clanks or beats Sonic's Side B whenever he doesn't have invincibility/intangibility/whatever is going on with his customs.

 

[san.]

From before the patch, I considered Ike vs Sonic anywhere from 4:6 to 45:55, leaning more to 4:6. Ryo barely loses to Static Manny and other top Ikes don't seem to have very much difficulty in the MU when I spoke to them. I was consistently barely edging out vs. my local Sonic main until the last tournament I went to (he recently beat Meekspeedy and took a game off Static Manny as well), but that tournament had customs customs: not using my own customs, underestimating flaming spin dash's boost movement and damage, and getting outplayed.

After the patch, I think it's closer to -1 than -2. People are also starting to learn optimal DI directions.

I also think Gunner doesn't lose to Sonic. Grenades limit Sonic's movement and he has to deal with a lot of disjointed attacks. That's enough for a -1 at worst without going into anything more complex.

 

[Deathcarter]

@ Seagull Joe

Ike is tied for 9th fastest air speed, and has the same run speed as Kirby. The fact you think Ike is slow in the air suggests that this is one MU that does not fall in your range of "I've played 80% of this MUs".

Ike vs Sonic is the MU in SSB4 I have the most off line experience in. By a fair margin. As in I have a 100% win record against Sonics with my Ike in tournament.

Its was a 50-50 MU before customs and before the most recent patch. Ike has very little problems dealing with Spin Dash and all of its mix ups in general. Ike can also play fast enough with his auto-canceling aerials and Jab/Dtilt/Grab game to not leave Sonic with much (or anything) to punish much like how Sonic is fast enough to leave Ike with minimal chances to land a hit. Both can wrack up damage on the other quickly if they DO get in and land a solid hit finally. Their tools worked in a way that the winner was strictly whoever could get inside the other person's head better.

With the patch however, Sonic is not going to have an easy time killing at all. Half of the time I died it was to Bthrow. That is no longer the case. I firmly believe that its now probably 55-45 Ike's favour. Customs gets interesting in terms of Sonic's Side B customs vs Ike's CQC and I haven't gotten to play that one out. Given how Ike's CQC works however it most likely clanks or beats Sonic's Side B whenever he doesn't have invincibility/intangibility/whatever is going on with his customs.

I have a very hard time believing that Ike goes even with Sonic much less has an advantage over him even with the patch. Mostly because I have no idea how Ike is even able to approach Sonic in this matchup if the Sonic gets the lead and decides to cheese.

 

[Seagull Joe]

From before the patch, I considered Ike vs Sonic anywhere from 4:6 to 45:55, leaning more to 4:6. Ryo barely loses to Static Manny and other top Ikes don't seem to have very much difficulty in the MU when I spoke to them. I was consistently barely edging out vs. my local Sonic main until the last tournament I went to (he recently beat Meekspeedy and took a game off Static Manny as well), but that tournament had customs customs: not using my own customs, underestimating flaming spin dash's boost movement and damage, and getting outplayed.

After the patch, I think it's closer to -1 than -2. People are also starting to learn optimal DI directions.

I also think Gunner doesn't lose to Sonic. Grenades limit Sonic's movement and he has to deal with a lot of disjointed attacks. That's enough for a -1 at worst without going into anything more complex.

I'll agree with anything San says.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For what it's worth, Espy believes Fox wins vs Sonic solidly as well.

It's an even matchup.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's an even matchup.

Until you have a supporting argument I'll opt to listen to the one who fights one of the best Foxes in the US on a weekly basis.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Seagull lives in MD/VA right?
I'm not 100% aware of any Yoshi mains there nor do I see any in the xanadu results, so I'm genuinely curious who he's playing against to think Yoshi beats Sonic. Especially since he's getting 1st-3rd at the events there and not showing any signs of losing to a Yoshi to keep him out of top 5 at these tournaments.

 

[Ffamran]

Seagull lives in MD/VA right?
I'm not 100% aware of any Yoshi mains there nor do I see any in the xanadu results, so I'm genuinely curious who he's playing against to think Yoshi beats Sonic. Especially since he's getting 1st-3rd at the events there and not showing any signs of losing to a Yoshi to keep him out of top 5 at these tournaments.

There's Bonz who's all right as a player and @DunnoBro said he was going to use Yoshi over Duck Hunt yesterday. Rice played as Yoshi in Cali and almost won against Zex's Sheik in grand finals after sending Zex to losers finals or something that I don't remember well. Rice uses a ton of characters, so if he focused entirely on Yoshi, I could see him winning, but when he's spread out to using Mario, Dr. Mario, Marth, Greninja, Yoshi and maybe more, that can limit him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Palutena has some neat properties that I think I'm gonna give a real try. In the early days, I compared her to Wario, but now that I have a feel for other characters, I'm thinking more of an offensive Jigglypuff. There are a lot of things that frustrate me about Jigglypuff that Palutena seems to have the right stuff for, such as an unpredictable empty jump -> grab, the ability to threaten camping opponents, and real movement speed. Perhaps a Palutena that focuses on not getting hit, rather than hitting the opponent, would be able to pick apart opponents in a way that Jigglypuff often struggles to do.

 

[busken]

Why was the general gameplay and advice thread locked?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Until you have a supporting argument I'll opt to listen to the one who fights one of the best Foxes in the US on a weekly basis.

That's good with me.

I'm still right though ;P

 

[deepseadiva]

is such a strange amalgam of character traits. A slow jab - but its still incredible due to how it functions. Invincible-on-call moves (one of which is an aerial). This crazy usmash that reaches to like the ceiling. One of two character that can kill with a grab. A Din's Fire that ignores shields. Fastest-character-in-the-game mode. But like the worst tilts in the game.

Like wtf what is this woman.

 

[bc1910]

is such a strange amalgam of character traits. A slow jab - but its still incredible due to how it functions. Invincible-on-call moves (one of which is an aerial). This crazy usmash that reaches to like the ceiling. One of two character that can kill with a grab. A Din's Fire that ignores shields. Fastest-character-in-the-game mode. But like the worst tilts in the game.

Like wtf what is this woman.

I don't get what you mean by one of two characters that can kill with a grab? Ness and Mewtwo both have excellent kill throws, Luigi of course has Hoo Haa v2.0, and then there's the "good Up Throw kill %" characters (Link, Greninja, Marcina) who can kill with their Up Throws at around 150%. A few back throws like Sonic's and DK's will start killing near the ledge at that percent too, although they're not as good as the Up Throws.

It seems to me that plenty more than two characters can kill with a grab in this game. I might be misunderstanding you though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Palutena has some neat properties that I think I'm gonna give a real try. In the early days, I compared her to Wario, but now that I have a feel for other characters, I'm thinking more of an offensive Jigglypuff. There are a lot of things that frustrate me about Jigglypuff that Palutena seems to have the right stuff for, such as an unpredictable empty jump -> grab, the ability to threaten camping opponents, and real movement speed. Perhaps a Palutena that focuses on not getting hit, rather than hitting the opponent, would be able to pick apart opponents in a way that Jigglypuff often struggles to do.

I tried her out to but never reay got the Wario vibe from her...maybe her fair is pretty similar. If you're exploring characters I suggest Mario. He feels really good .

 

[deepseadiva]

No you're right @ bc1910 . I was just thinking Ness, but Luigi has one as well, right right.

Don't know when Mewtwo's throws kills.

The up throw kills I wouldn't say are "real" kill throws, since 150% seems very generous (maybe against like Rosalina and Jigglypuff). I call those seal-the-deal throws and those are really just KO caps for them to make sure no one lives past 180% against them (which is incredibly useful, I don't want to downplay them).

 

[Smog Frog]

up throw kills closer to around 130. while it sounds late for a kill throw, this is without rage AND its a vertical kill move, so you can kill from anywhere on the stage. imagine how broken bthrow would be if it was a vertical kill move.

 

[bc1910]

Oh okay, fair enough. Mewtwo's Uthrow kills Mario at about 130% from anywhere on FD, which is really nice. It can actually make it a better kill throw than Ness' Bthrow depending on positioning, and because people are getting better at (or basically relearning) horizontal vectoring which can allow you to live Ness' Bthrow for longer than you'd think. Whereas vertical vectoring was removed so you can't do anything but DI Mewtwo's Uthrow, which doesn't let you live very much longer.

I think those throws are on the cusp of being "kill throws" and "fallback throws". They shouldn't be your main method of killing, but having the option to kill with an Uthrow at the mid-100s is something a ton of characters wish they had, so as you said they shouldn't be downplayed.

I was being a little generous but honestly not much; Greninja's Uthrow with no rage kills Mario at 161%. You can kill Jigglypuff and Rosalina as early as 130% with some of those throws. And once again, them being up throws is really useful with vertical vectoring removed. Rage makes them even better. Heavies can live to 180% (with no rage) that's true, but they're in the minority.

 

[Kofu]

I need to update my throw kill percent thread, not only with Mewtwo's throws and modified ones like ROB's, Kirby's, and Charizard's, but also positional KO percents (and possibly rage-influenced ones) as suggested by several people.

 

[the king of murder]

I don't get what you mean by one of two characters that can kill with a grab? Ness and Mewtwo both have excellent kill throws, Luigi of course has Hoo Haa v2.0, and then there's the "good Up Throw kill %" characters (Link, Greninja, Marcina) who can kill with their Up Throws at around 150%. A few back throws like Sonic's and DK's will start killing near the ledge at that percent too, although they're not as good as the Up Throws.

It seems to me that plenty more than two characters can kill with a grab in this game. I might be misunderstanding you though.

Dont forget Ikes D-throw which kills Shiek and lighter charas at like 120-140% with rage.

 

[Megamang]

Ike's throws seem to be much improved this time around. How is his grab game? I assume it has improved with his speed increase, since empty hopping into grabs probably works better now. How is his dash-grab and shield-grab range?

 

[san.]

Ike's throws seem to be much improved this time around. How is his grab game? I assume it has improved with his speed increase, since empty hopping into grabs probably works better now. How is his dash-grab and shield-grab range?

Dash grab is better and has decent range, but since Ike doesn't slide with his standing grab, dash shield grab is worse. Overall, this makes it quite a bit harder since a dash powershield grab used to be all but guaranteed. Ike's normal grab range is mediocre, so he really needed the slide to make it seem like it had much more reach. Luckily, he's not as hungry for a grab in this game with the existence of dtilt that works as a ground spacer and combo starter.

Jab to grab only works with rage on the fastfallers, but it has a high success rate on middle gravity opponents. Grabs are guaranteed out of nair and air dodge frame traps though.

Pivot grab is still good, and doesn't require a boost pivot input to get decent slide anymore. Overall, it's more difficult getting the grab than it used to be, but there's quite a bit more reward on throws.

 

[Asdioh]

Have we talked about customs Villager lately? Do people feel like his sapling/ledgeplay have reliable counterplay available for every character, or does his ability to play defensively on the ledge heavily hurt the options of a lot of characters? When ADHD first used it, there was a bit of outcry, but then people "learned how to beat it" and I haven't seen too much of Villagers playing like that lately, but I think that's because it's a very "boring" style of play, and most people aren't willing to go through with it, even though it's strong.
NL recently went and made this http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink/b/658298958 but does it really help? Every character is capable of hitting Villager when he's on the ledge without invincibility, this is obvious. But once the Villager starts walling with all his other moves, does it not become much harder?

I'm curious what the consensus is on this lately.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think it's likely gonna become pretty unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[Djent]

There are a lot of things that worry me about 's long-term viability, mainly because her lack of good tilts combines with the weaknesses in her jab (slow startup) and grab (long endlag) to create a dependency on strong options with serious drawbacks. She could deal with bad tilts if these other issues didn't exist, but as it stands she just isn't "safe." I think @ TheReflexWonder is at least partially right about passive play for this reason. I think it's theoretically optimal more because of what she can't do than because of what she can.
On the positive side, she definitely fears nothing about ledge-camping. A YMCA metagame would probably be kind to her.

 

[Firefoxx]

Customs Villager is likely what will open the door to putting restrictions on customs in one way or another. Places that don't want customs will point to Villager as the prime example of everything wrong with the meta. Places that like customs will likely ban the combo of Explosive Balloon Trip and Counter Timber in an attempt to combat backlash against customs. But EBT is so good at facilitating planking by itself that I'm not sure it'll be enough

 

[Smog Frog]

just shut up and deal with it. if you cant be bothered to learn to beat it, why are you bothering coming to tournaments?

my .02

 

[Asdioh]

I think it's likely gonna become pretty unhealthy for the metagame.

Heh, yeah. I rambled more about this subject here if you care to read http://smashboards.com/threads/kirby-the-amazing-cats.369252/page-30#post-19182424

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Palutena is safe enough, IMO. She struggles to react to a lot in neutral because of a reliance on Jab and Dash Attack, but empty jump/F-Air mix-up is rather good even by itself. Dash Attack has invincibility in the front early on, which helps. I wonder how much it'll matter in the end, but Reflect being unblockable and having what appears to be a weak windbox is kind of cute. High grab end lag doesn't matter so much if you don't miss, and it is fast with good range.

 

[Pyr]

just shut up and deal with it. if you cant be bothered to learn to beat it, why are you bothering coming to tournaments?

my .02

Because the solution to abuse of a mechanic isn't always "get better and deal with it" when game health is concerned.

 

[Smog Frog]

how is it threatening game health? its just boring.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Heh, yeah. I rambled more about this subject here if you care to read http://smashboards.com/threads/kirby-the-amazing-cats.369252/page-30#post-19182424

Pretty much. If the Villager goes into optimal variation of options, it gets really dumb for a load of characters.

 

[Hippieslayer]

just lgl the sonuva ***** if thats what it takes to save customs from drowning in scrub tears

 

[Espy Rose]

That's good with me.

I'm still right though ;P

"Right" is an awfully strange way of saying "incredibly wrong."