Character Competitive Impressions

[Yikarur]

Sheik is not Yoshis worst MU, She is in a permanent fear of getting killed early and has to adjust her gameplay to that. Fair spacing can get beaten by upsmash because fair is not disjointed etc.

Slush is overdramatizing most of the time. Yoshi is at least Top10 at the moment.
He has one of the strongest damage outputs in the game and above average killing power.
It's often hard to get the killmove but Yoshi has some possibilities to set-up a kill; Egg Throw Combos, uptilt to upair, jab to dsmash, egg lay read. Yoshi got it probably easier than other "Killproblem" Characters.
Yoshi has a shallow learning curve at the beginning because Yoshi has tons of autocombos, broken Egg Toss etc. and seems extremely powerful in the beginning. But when people learn the Match-up you'll realize that the Yoshi Skill ceiling is enormously high because all the things that seemed broken before are bad against any good players that know how to play the MU.
And I think this is where Slush is stuck at the moment with his pessimism. Yoshi seems really bad when playing against people who know the MU while still playing the old game. Yoshis need to advance their game, which is not easy because not much people know how to play the MU so they are rarely forced to change.

If people know the Yoshi MU a lot of MUs get very difficult for Yoshi but Yoshi still remains Top10 in my opinion.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You make it seem like I'm not trying to improve or anything. I almost go even with the top players in my city now compared to back then I'd just plain lose.
I still think a top 10 list would be Sheik fox sonic luigi diddy zss c.falcon mario pikachu etc. in no order outside of top 2
With Ness Villager Yoshi and maybe Peach Wario barely scrapping around that area. If customs on, it'd be hard to tell but MiiB would take a top 3 spot immediately.

I'd like to say comfortably I'm a top 5 Yoshi in terms of western (NA EU etc.) that go to tournaments regularly, especially considering the state I'm in and the players I have to go up against. And to be quite frank, I wouldn't see you in the top 5 if we're gonna take some light jabs at each other.
I will of course admit I'm not anywhere near the level of Aiba or Yoshidora, but they're not doing very well either in terms of people on this board and silly community voted leddit tier lists saying/throwing him high up like top 2/5 before.

Pessimism or not, the results globally shows characters that're better in neutral or just plain have better frame data or hitboxes than him wins most of the time.
Or we have silly stuff like Samus GnW beating Yoshi lol (going off shigaming channel mostly btw) Not counting the recent videos dropped two days ago of a Yoshi losing to Ocean, Aiba lost to Umeki's peach.
Again not underplaying peach as a character, but showing that the best Yoshi players are having problems with other characters/players cause one of the two or even both are better than Yoshi/the player.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fwiw I don't think anybody is actually that good with Yoshi yet. Aiba and Yoshidora are okay but it's not like they're on par with the likes of Ranai, Rain or Komorikiri skillwise - and these two are pretty much the best Yoshi players right now so there's way more room for improvement for Yoshi than for the 'big three' [Diddy, Sheik, Sonic] - or most of the good characters for that matter.

Sonic is one of those characters I think I see beating Sheik on nearly every occasion I've personally seen from high level players.

I know, right? Pre-patch Sonic actually kinda destroyed Sheik because she couldn't finish off his stocks to save her life and he'd KO her with rage bthrow at like 80%. Sheik's biggest buff in the patch was the nerf of Sonic's bthrow.

People really really really overrate Needles.

In the Sonic match-up? Maybe.
In geneal? lol no.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Tbh I only rank Aiba and Yoshidora above the rest of all of us because they have wins against good players over in their region and have some decent results.
Most Yoshi's like raptor yika me slice dren etc. have results but we're not exactly taking huge names but having decent results like 4th-9th place.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

they have wins against good players over in their region

I don't actually know for sure whether that's the case or not either. Yoshidora may have beaten somebody decent at some early wifi tournament during the 3DS days or something but that's the only time I think he ever did something. Slice taking a match off Mr.r's Sheik is probably the biggest achievement a Yoshi player has reached so far.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I sadly can't read the text, so never able to find any info if aiba beat anyone noteworthy (umebura 14 for example).
But could've sworn there was a time yoshidora beat rain and nietono online before diddy patch hit.

 

[Blobface]

What is the trade off for Dark Fists? Does it have less distance when recovering? Because even then, it sure as hell is a better recovery move since trying to gimp ganon becomes a very risky thing at even moderate %. It seems to be a straight upgrade. Which is fine, ganon could use it when many others are getting them from customs. And it fits his character.

Dark Fists starts up a bit slower and doesn't have a grab. The first drawback is basically insignificant since it's only 1-2 frames and it actually increases the distance traveled since you have more time to move. The second drawback can actually be significant against other recoveries with Super Armor, most notably custom Little Mac where Dark Fists isn't as important and having the ability to grab him out of guard breaker is good for edgeguarding.

Other than that, yeah, it's strictly better than Dark Dive in nearly every other matchup.

Not a Ganon main, but... It starts up slower (stalls in the air for a moment before rising) and it seems harder to sweetspot the ledge with. Considering the Montana hitbox at the end, though... And the armor on start...

Distance seems the same, or a bit better, though.

It's not any more difficult to sweetspot the ledge, but most Ganon's intentionally don't* so that the full uppercut comes out and hits people near the ledge with the "Montana Hitbox" (I love this, Ganondorf grabs a state and smacks you with it).

*Holding down on the control stick prevents you from grabbing the ledge until you stop holding down.

 

[HeroMystic]

How does Mario gimp Sheik if she decides to recover vertically to the ledge? Sweetspotting N-air is hard enough, and gimping that Vanish is going to be hard. Screw up, and you're getting stage-spiked by the explosion. Unless we are talking customs here (Then again, what FLUDD can hit belowledge?), where Mario can just go 'Super Windbox Bros.' with Gust Cape.

Mario mains, feel free to disagree since my knowledge about the red clad plumber isn't so great.

We're not gimping Sheik unless we cape her Vanish, customs or not. Sheik's recovery has too much distance and it's too safe from directly below.

Mario has a pretty grand time killing her on stage, however. Even Up-B is a decent kill option.

 

[Radical Larry]

Warlock Thrust isn't as bad as it seems; it's got heavy end lag, which is a turn off to most people, but it's fast on start up and deals some decent damage, and has decent range. The attack is meant to disrupt opponents and allow you to rack up a bit more damage to allow for a KO. It's never meant for a KO at all.

Dark Vault also isn't bad; low damage is a turn off to people, but remember, it has heightened recovery height and some horizontal distance at least. It's also good for stage spiking opponents, since you have two opportunities to grab them; though it's advised to use it at 40% or more damage for it to really make an impact.

Wizard's Assault might go completely downward, but it still has a meteor that is actually further down now, and this attack is meant to help with Ganondorf's vertical recovery and acts similar to Falcon Kick. Slow start up, but if it hits, it is quite a good thing.

3 of Ganondorf's most underrated customs in a nutshell. There's got to be something these can be used for in tournaments aside from gimmicks.

 

[DunnoBro]

Custom Ganondorf is probably a better character than roughly half the cast, although he's a tough character to accurately rank because he pretty much ignores the "rules" of Smash, in a way similar to Lucario. He can lose most of the match and then kill you in 2-3 reads (except he doesn't need to take on percents for that), but we've all heard this a hundred times. What customs do for him is give him a good recovery and a way to punish most projectiles and commitments through Wizard's Dropkick, and Dark Fists is a powerful multipurpose kill move with decently fast hitbox and superarmor that can effectively be used as a counter. I think it also has more recovery utility than his regular up b, and hits opponents through the stage. As a side note I think the sword punch also destroys Luma pretty hard.

It's honestly kind of depressing top players are telling me my custom ganon is better than my custom DHD

Boss and ChuDat at least think custom ganon is better than custom DHD.

One big thing people need to start doing with ganon is getting used to holding down so he doesn't grab the ledge with dark fist. This lets him put out that strong ass hit as a ledge grab mix-up that can potentially kill, or at least lock people in shield/scare them away from your ledge get up options. And also actually follow up on someone that went too deep and got popped up by fist, often ganon will just grab the ledge before the strong hit if you don't hold down. (Manondorf gave up several super pivotal kills by not knowing this last time)

 

[Radical Larry]

Dark Fists has always been a great attack for Ganondorf. Akin to Warlock Punch, this thing can KO early, but unlike the Punch, it needs significantly more damage (whereas Punch can KO at no damage at all).

Also, what do you guys think?
Do you think Warlock Punch or Warlock Blade is better?

In my opinion, Punch is better. Even though it has slower speed and shorter range, that's basically it. Warlock Punch can KO at 0% damage, whereas Blade will not KO near as low. Warlock Punch can break shields or severely pressure them, same as Blade. If anything, the low SA also makes it seem that Blade is just a small nerf in Ganondorf's arsenal.

 

[Antonykun]

'Sheik is Luigi's worst MU'

is laughing. Hard.

Luigi VS Sheik is perfectly manageable. Sure, she exploits Luigi really well. But don't forget her fast falling speed means combo fodder for Luigi, and Luigi can kill her in about 2-3 solid strings. And also, Luigi is probaly the only one that can challenge Sheik's aerials, given his own very fast yet powerful aerials. And F3 N-air is pretty golden in here.

People act like Sheik is a wolf to a rabbit to Luigi, when it really isn't...



Bolded parts. I need explanation.

why the heck is megaman everyone's worst mu? (exaggeration?)

 

[Radical Larry]

why the heck is megaman everyone's worst mu? (exaggeration?)

Mega Man has trouble with Link, Toon Link and any character with a reflector, as well as Falcon, Ganondorf and others.
With Ganondorf, all you have to do is catch Metal Blade, and that makes the MU more manageable. (I did that in a match and resorted to special moves as I didn't want to throw the Metal Blade).

 

[Thinkaman]

One big thing people need to start doing with ganon is getting used to holding down so he doesn't grab the ledge with dark fist. This lets him put out that strong *** hit as a ledge grab mix-up that can potentially kill, or at least lock people in shield/scare them away from your ledge get up options. And also actually follow up on someone that went too deep and got popped up by fist, often ganon will just grab the ledge before the strong hit if you don't hold down. (Manondorf gave up several super pivotal kills by not knowing this last time)

Dark Dive was always banal
but Dark Fist's hitbox is rather quite tall
I hold down when I'm cheeky
and kill them at sixty
and say "Oh hey look, it's BBrawl!"

 

[Antonykun]

Mega Man has trouble with Link, Toon Link and any character with a reflector, as well as Falcon, Ganondorf and others.
With Ganondorf, all you have to do is catch Metal Blade, and that makes the MU more manageable. (I did that in a match and resorted to special moves as I didn't want to throw the Metal Blade).

as a villager main this post makes me raise an eyebrow. IDK about the hylian shield or holding the metal blade but if megaman vs reflectors is the same as villager vs reflectors then megaman doesn't lose to reflectors but rather the one using a reflector

 

[Radical Larry]

as a villager main this post makes me raise an eyebrow. IDK about the hylian shield or holding the metal blade but if megaman vs reflectors is the same as villager vs reflectors then megaman doesn't lose to reflectors but rather the one using a reflector

Mega Man is a primarily projectile based character with little physical attacks. He's not like Villager, who can pocket, as he has no reflector of his own. Instead, once it's reflected close range, it'll hit.

As well, Hylian Shields will automatically block any of Mega Man's projectiles.

Lastly, if you hold the Metal Blade, he can't take another one out, making it (somewhat) easier with some characters who need to attack Mega Man.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dark Dive was always banal
but Dark Fist's hitbox is rather quite tall
I hold down when I'm cheeky
and kill them at sixty
and say "Oh hey look, it's BBrawl!"

BBrawl had it too? I just remember doing this in brawl minus, though it's even better than the brawl minus dark dive since it didn't set up for the strong hit lol

 

[Thinkaman]

BBrawl had it too? I just remember doing this in brawl minus, though it's even better than the brawl minus dark dive since it didn't set up for the strong hit lol

Yeah, I regard it as one of my better ideas. Ganon was my favorite project; this was no secret.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah, I regard it as one of my better ideas. Ganon was my favorite project; this was no secret.

Apparently nintendo thought it was a pretty good idea too =p

 

[bc1910]

Anyway, I guess it's cause Slush mains Yoshi and most mains if not all know their weaknesses, so when someone says, Yoshi's Dash Attack is annoying, Slush would argue it's punishable. Dabuz is like this too with Rosalina and Seagull with Sonic. It's not so much as downplaying, but knowing your character enough to say what are their strengths and weaknesses and in some cases what people see as a massive strength might be an okay strength and what seems to be a weakness is actually a strength or even what people see is a strength is actually a weakness.

I do think you're right, but there's a difference between blatant downplaying and being realistic, like Dabuz and Seagull. Dabuz is very realistic about Rosalina's power, I mean yes he's kind of wrong when he says she's around #10 customless but he's pretty spot on about her strengths and weaknesses otherwise. He basically acknowledges that she's this amazing character who's a lot worse when she loses her space pillow, and suffers from her basic traits (tall/light/floaty) more than anything else.

Seagull is realistic too, he's very aware of Sonic's strengths and weaknesses and is honest about the fact that Sonic only has around 3-4 dodgy MUs and everyone else should be at least even, or slightly in his favour. Which is refreshing since even some very knowledgeable Sonic mains either refuse to admit how powerful their character is, or try to conjure up weaknesses he doesn't really have. I'm always getting told how "amazing" it is that most jabs clank with Spin Dash because Sonic is bad up close, from people who are in denial about the fact that a) his jab combo, tilts and grab are perfectly fine tools up close and b) he can just run away when you clank with Spin Dash.

 

[Appledees]

Mega Man has trouble with Link, Toon Link and any character with a reflector, as well as Falcon, Ganondorf and others.
With Ganondorf, all you have to do is catch Metal Blade, and that makes the MU more manageable. (I did that in a match and resorted to special moves as I didn't want to throw the Metal Blade).

Stop playing against awful Megamans please

if you seriously think reflectors or just holding his metal limits Megaman's ability to do anything then you are very ignorant of his abilities. The only character you mentioned that actually gives Megaman a difficult time is Falcon cause of his amazing speed to not really give a **** about his projectiles and his much better CQC game against Megaman.

also I didn't know this was the early 3ds days where people thought the Hylian Shields made Megaman worthless

 

[Anomilus]

Mega Man is a primarily projectile based character with little physical attacks. He's not like Villager, who can pocket, as he has no reflector of his own. Instead, once it's reflected close range, it'll hit.

As well, Hylian Shields will automatically block any of Mega Man's projectiles.

Lastly, if you hold the Metal Blade, he can't take another one out, making it (somewhat) easier with some characters who need to attack Mega Man.

...Oh yeah, Radical Larry.

Okee, Mega Man is primarily a mid-range fighter, not a long-range fighter. Unless he's spamming F-Smash - and he shouldn't, Mega Man rarely cares if his opponent has a reflector or is Villager. Being a mid-range fighter, Mega Man would LIKE for his opponent to use their reflector constantly (unless it's Falco), because if the opponent's been conditioned into whipping out a reflector every time they suspect a projectile, Mega Man gets a free grab.

If Mega Man isn't far enough for a grab, he's usually far enough to neutralize any of his reflected projectiles DARN IT THIS IS DAY ONE CRAP WHY AM I STILL HAVING TO BRING THIS UP!?

...*ahem*

Anyhoo, Toon/Link is a bit more troubling MU, but the Hylian Shield rarely has anything to do with it. Sure T./Link can just hold their ground and neutralize projectiles, but it just creates a stalemate; Neither character has to approach (being compelled to approach is not the same thing as being forced to approach). Once both players decide to actually fight, things get a bit more tricky. Link's projectile game isn't easily neutralized by Mega Man, but he doesn't really keep Mega Man out easily either. Once Mega Man's in his optimal range he can pester Link with lemons and try to force a mistake. Link's goal is to force Mega Man into a bad position using boomerangs and bombs. Toon Link on the other hand has his mobility and is a bit more direct in trying to land an attack.

Lastly, Mega Man losing his Metal Blade is only an issue if the MM user can't adapt to an opponent who now can't use their normals easily. MM still has six other projectiles and will just abuse that fact until his opponent drops or discards the blade.

 

[GeneralLedge]

why the heck is megaman everyone's worst mu? (exaggeration?)

Dude you hang out in the Mii Sword forum, you should know that Gale Strike shuts down practically every projectile he has. AND we have a cape. And SoL's Iframes. And deep off-stage tools. Grounded Hero Spin might be a good answer to Mega-upper too, or Stone Scabbard for a defensive answer.

Def. not the second-worst character's worst MU.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I do think you're right, but there's a difference between blatant downplaying and being realistic, like Dabuz and Seagull. Dabuz is very realistic about Rosalina's power, I mean yes he's kind of wrong when he says she's around #10 customless but he's pretty spot on about her strengths and weaknesses otherwise. He basically acknowledges that she's this amazing character who's a lot worse when she loses her space pillow, and suffers from her basic traits (tall/light/floaty) more than anything else.

Seagull is realistic too, he's very aware of Sonic's strengths and weaknesses and is honest about the fact that Sonic only has around 3-4 dodgy MUs and everyone else should be at least even, or slightly in his favour. Which is refreshing since even some very knowledgeable Sonic mains either refuse to admit how powerful their character is, or try to conjure up weaknesses he doesn't really have. I'm always getting told how "amazing" it is that most jabs clank with Spin Dash because Sonic is bad up close, from people who are in denial about the fact that a) his jab combo, tilts and grab are perfectly fine tools up close and b) he can just run away when you clank with Spin Dash.

I think was the 3rd best character in the previous patch. Currently I still think he's top 5 or top 7 at worst.

He is even with , , , and .

He loses to 45-55 under 100%, but he also beats 55-45 over 100%. It's really weird. Rage matters so much in this matchup that it's downright silly. She is fairly light, which makes her die from Bthrow at the edge around 100% in rage still. 's worst matchup is easily . can snuff 's approaches so easily as well as match his speed for the most part. just sucks at approaching and offstage. I'd say the matchup is 40-60.

Here's my firm belief for ALL of his matchups to stop posting long drawn out paragraphs. Consider this scale based on even, small (dis)advantage, (dis)advantage, and large (dis)advantage (This is considering no customs):

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

 

[Appledees]

Any reason why Megaman is at a small disadvantage against Sonic?

Not doubting you of course but I always felt that Megaman with his tool set had alot of ways to stop some of Sonic's approaches. I always felt like Megaman had the slightly advantage or goes very evenly against him.

also before the patch was Diddy vs Sonic even or was it more or less the same now?

 

[Antonykun]

I think was the 3rd best character in the previous patch. Currently I still think he's top 5 or top 7 at worst.

He is even with , , , and .

He loses to 45-55 under 100%, but he also beats 55-45 over 100%. It's really weird. Rage matters so much in this matchup that it's downright silly. She is fairly light, which makes her die from Bthrow at the edge around 100% in rage still. 's worst matchup is easily . can snuff 's approaches so easily as well as match his speed for the most part. just sucks at approaching and offstage. I'd say the matchup is 40-60.

Here's my firm belief for ALL of his matchups to stop posting long drawn out paragraphs. Consider this scale based on even, small (dis)advantage, (dis)advantage, and large (dis)advantage (This is considering no customs):

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

you think that villager only has a small disadvantage? care to explain? i think Sonic is a +3 on villlager but maybe theres something i'm missing

 

[Quickhero]

@ Seagull Joe I'm curious as to why you think Sonic has a +3 advantage over Ike. Ike's actually one of the few characters who can safely challenge Sonic's spin dash thanks to how fast Ike's b-air and u-air are.

 

[Nu~]

I think was the 3rd best character in the previous patch. Currently I still think he's top 5 or top 7 at worst.

He is even with , , , and .

He loses to 45-55 under 100%, but he also beats 55-45 over 100%. It's really weird. Rage matters so much in this matchup that it's downright silly. She is fairly light, which makes her die from Bthrow at the edge around 100% in rage still. 's worst matchup is easily . can snuff 's approaches so easily as well as match his speed for the most part. just sucks at approaching and offstage. I'd say the matchup is 40-60.

Here's my firm belief for ALL of his matchups to stop posting long drawn out paragraphs. Consider this scale based on even, small (dis)advantage, (dis)advantage, and large (dis)advantage (This is considering no customs):

-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:

Mega man at +1?
This is interesting...explain. Many mega man mains believe that sonic is in their favor

Also...
What would you, as a Sonic main, do against a Pac-Man that gets the percent lead, then camps the ledge with a trampoline in front of him and a hydrant on top of the trampoline.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'd say Sonic has better than a +2 against Jigglypuff. If he gets a percent lead, that's game over.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Can't say I disagree with Joe on Sonic vs. D3.

Smooth Criminal

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sonic is not -2 vs Fox wtf

 

[Trifroze]

So is there any data on grab ranges for Smash 4 anywhere yet?

 

[Seagull Joe]

you think that villager only has a small disadvantage? care to explain? i think Sonic is a +3 on villlager but maybe theres something i'm missing

I'd be willing to agree on +2, but I don't think essentially shuts down .

I'd say Sonic has better than a +2 against Jigglypuff. If he gets a percent lead, that's game over.

That's true for any matchup has really.

Sonic is not -2 vs Fox wtf

You're right. It might be -3.

Mega man at +1?
This is interesting...explain. Many mega man mains believe that sonic is in their favor

Also...
What would you, as a Sonic main, do against a Pac-Man that gets the percent lead, then camps the ledge with a trampoline in front of him and a hydrant on top of the trampoline.

just isn't scary to me. He throws easily powershieldable projectiles and has obvious kill moves. I could see it as even, but it's not super difficult either.

can't kill in any reliable fashion ever. If he camped the ledge then I'd ledgetrump him and punish or just FH Dair into the trampoline. He's too slow to catch and his item throwing gameplay isn't scary either.

Any reason why Megaman is at a small disadvantage against Sonic?

Not doubting you of course but I always felt that Megaman with his tool set had alot of ways to stop some of Sonic's approaches. I always felt like Megaman had the slightly advantage or goes very evenly against him.

also before the patch was Diddy vs Sonic even or was it more or less the same now?

I think just wins in ability to kill, approach, and damage output.

@ Seagull Joe I'm curious as to why you think Sonic has a +3 advantage over Ike. Ike's actually one of the few characters who can safely challenge his spin dash thanks to how fast Ike's b-air and u-air are.

just sucks. Having fast aerials doesn't make up for being incredibly slow in the air and on the ground. I'd be hard pressed to believe can punish spindash over and over again with Uair or Bair. Maybe once if the spindash is outright blatant.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How many of those matchups have you actually played, Joe?

 

[Ffamran]

So is there any data on grab ranges for Smash 4 anywhere yet?

There are hitbox sizes and coordinates in Dantarion's data dump, but how those translate to hitboxes would need to be made with those hitbox circle thingies.

just sucks. Having fast aerials doesn't make up for being incredibly slow in the air and on the ground. I'd be hard pressed to believe can punish spindash over and over again with Uair or Bair. Maybe once if the spindash is outright blatant.

Ike's air speed is pretty decent if not fast. Did he gain a buff to air speed from Brawl? I don't remember since it's been a while and I'm pretty sure he gained a running speed buff since he's slightly - I think one step down - slower than Samus and noticeably faster than Falco. So, Ike's average, but fairly mobile for a heavyweight.

 

[Lavani]

The data dump's grabboxes don't necessarily indicate actual grab range. Marth's grabs have lesser number's than Wii Fit Trainer's, but his grab is better than hers in actuality. Likewise with Bowser>Greninja, though Greninja does win in disjoint while Bowser's arm is outstretched.

I got the grabbox size data together for all characters months ago just to find out it was all useless information that didn't represent the game accurately

 

[Ikes]

Some comments.

What.

Have you seen his U-smash?

This got me. True bleeping story .


Why.
Why didn't you mentioned the almighty 's edgeguarding tool.

Why.

DAWN TAWNT.

pikachu as a whole has decent kill power, up smash kills at normal kill percents, down smash kills at a bit higher near the edge, nair doesnt kill but is great for keeping your opponent offstage and ive gotten some people into the upper blast zone when they were near it by nairing, utilt can lead into nair on many occasions (not guaranteed but it's worked for me on many occasions), uair also works well for pushing people into the upper blast zone, the only aerial i can think of that doesnt have any reliable kill potential is dair and maybe bair

bair is great though cause it can lead into other aerials on many occasions and it's so easy to pull people offstage with it

ive baired into fair offstage for kills before and it is stupidly satisfying, though i wouldnt recommend relying on that to kill

I personally believe that is still a polarizing character just because of how ridiculous her MU ratio is:

After patch, it's either even or in her favor
Even or slightly in her favor
in her favor since she's is one of the few if not only characters who do not care about his neutral shenanigans
Greatly in her favor since she has everything to beat captain falcon reliably and is consistent in doing so (one of his worst MU)
boards consider their worst MU
very bad for Luigi if plays the MU correctly (considered his worst MU)
I have no clue since he doesn't get any noticeable nor do I never fight any, but I can prolly concur that it's in her favor
in her favor (although really the only heavy that can somewhat play against her)
in her favor
in her favor
in her favor
in her favor
Even
in her favor
have horrible MU or bad MU against her (considered their worst MU)
only character that has any noticeable advantages against and even then it's 45:55 at best or I dare say Even considering just how crap Lucario Neutral is against her
in her favor greatly (platforms really screw him over in 1v1)
in her favor
I don't really know
Slightly in sheik favor ?
bad, very bad, she has everything that Robin hates
in her favor
bad for samus
in her favor
in her favor
in her favor
bad for palutena
bad for zelda
The rest of the cast I have not enough knowledge or I just forgot to include them in :[.

There's no surprise why sheik is so dominating/polarizing in smash 4.

• God-Like Frame Data from various aspects such as rolls, avoiding some combos, (Fox comes to mind) and the fact that a lot of her moves auto-cancel or comes out fast.
• Very High Speed + Safety = Nightmare for heavier/campy characters.
• Needlez... did I mention needlez?
• Bouncing Fish
• Greatly benefits from platforms and low ceilings (uair kills) generally she has advantageous on every stage
• Nearly impossible to gimp if not impossible
• Infinite options/combos
• Virtually no lag or noticeable lag to properly punish for (even when shielding she can just go ham at you not to mention her tomahawk is very good)

While she does have weaknesses (very few) in fact since her not killing early doesn't mean jack if you can't touch her or if you get needle camped to death by her, these weaknesses for a lot of the characters cannot be properly exploited due to smash 4 mechanics and the fact she' so safe on everything she does making it very hard for some characters to even do anything. I really don't know what the Smash 4 team was thinking when they decided to make character that is both rush-down/campy, is very safe, and also having one of the best projectiles all in 1 package. Sheik's effectiveness never came from her Kill-Power but from her being able to adapt to any situation, controlling the pace of match (due to needles), and being on of the best edgeguarders and combo character in the game. I am not hating on sheik either heck I am a sheik main and I do believe her character design is one of the most balanced in the game, a true competitive character one in which you have to truly use and learn in order to be effective , however her environment she's in (Smash 4) makes her so unfair against the rest of the cast, if other characters had better movement options or lag cancels then yes she wouldn't be that threatening however since this is not the case, I believe will get even more nastier as her meta progresses. Also ZeRo's Sheik seems like the pinnacle of her metagame. I really do find her to the most complex and interesting characters to analyze in smash 4 however

Also sorry about the long post, but I currently do not know how to use spoilers since this is my very first post on the forums, however I been lurking quite a while now :O

I love how kirby is mid-low tier and he's pretty much the only character there that goes even besides the other top characters

feels good to play kirby

 

[Nu~]

can't kill in any reliable fashion ever. If he camped the ledge then I'd ledgetrump him and punish or just FH Dair into the trampoline. He's too slow to catch and his item throwing gameplay isn't scary either.

I actually meant standing next to the ledge with a trampoline right in front of him. Not sitting on the ledge.

You---------------trampoline+hydrant-Pacman--ledge

Also, do you mean his zoning game isn't threatening to sonic, or in general?

For the former, I can somewhat agree
But if it's the latter...yeah, no.

 

[PUK]

Ike's air speed is pretty decent if not fast. Did he gain a buff to air speed from Brawl? I don't remember since it's been a while and I'm pretty sure he gained a running speed buff since he's slightly - I think one step down - slower than Samus and noticeably faster than Falco. So, Ike's average, but fairly mobile for a heavyweight.

He's as fast as ROB in the air, but what makes him as fast as mario more or less is the fact that he can AC quick draw.
Ike doesn't have so much issue with sonic if he bans smashville and Final destination.
Oh and NeutralB love sonic's recovery with passion.

 

[Seagull Joe]

How many of those matchups have you actually played, Joe?

Like 80% of them.