Character Competitive Impressions

[Unknownkid]

Anyway, I guess it's cause Slush mains Yoshi and most mains if not all know their weaknesses, so when someone says, Yoshi's Dash Attack is annoying, Slush would argue it's punishable. Dabuz is like this too with Rosalina and Seagull with Sonic. It's not so much as downplaying, but knowing your character enough to say what are their strengths and weaknesses and in some cases what people see as a massive strength might be an okay strength and what seems to be a weakness is actually a strength or even what people see is a strength is actually a weakness.

Can't the same be said about DKwill with Kong Cyclone and Antonykun with ADHD style Villager? I mean Dkwill went out of his way to post frame data to SG Joe in twitter. We have VoID and K0rean post a Indepth Sheik video to counter Kong Cyclone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cqupvoLTCE

Antonykun agrues that Villager is terrible at camping you even though we see it countless times. Maybe it will be best to go to the lab and test moves work best against these "punishable" traits, skills, abilities.

 

[David Viran]

This reminds me of all the people who think flip jump is stupid and unpunishable. Well it is a stupid move but not in the way they are talking about.

 

[Quickhero]

This reminds me of all the people who think flip jump is stupid and unpunishable. Well it is a stupid move but not in the way they are talking about.

I hope you aren't trying to say that Flip Jump is a move that it is incredibly easy to punish and/or that it's a bad special period.

I don't know what high standards some people on this site have if that's what you actually meant.

 

[Ffamran]

This reminds me of all the people who think flip jump is stupid and unpunishable. Well it is a stupid move but not in the way they are talking about.

Someone asked for a video showing it's punishable on shield, but nobody answered. And I know you can catch it about midway when she's at the peak of Flip Jump's arc. Benefits of maining a character with hops.

 

[David Viran]

I hope you aren't trying to say that Flip Jump is an easily punishable move or that it's a bad special period.

I don't know what high standards some people on this board have if that's what you actually meant.

No flip jump is amazing but some people call it nigh unpunishable. Hit her out of it or just air dodge into it if they spam it.

 

[Luco]

But Yoshi has a command grab as well as his regular one, which means shield isn't always the best option. And if you use it enough, or even just show that you're willing to take that risk, people are going to be less inclined to shield over doing other things.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

No flip jump is amazing but some people call it nigh unpunishable. Hit her out of it or just air dodge into it if they spam it.

Hit her out of it... there is barely vulnerable flames, it is hardly practical to start planning to slap flip jumps unless its thrown around *that* predictably* you're better off just waiting for her next option and dealing with that. The thing is another extension of this unattractive roll/dodge aspect of the game.

 

[David Viran]

Hit her out of it... there is barely vulnerable flames, it is hardly practical to start planning to slap flip jumps unless its thrown around *that* predictably* you're better off just waiting for her next option and dealing with that. The thing is another extension of this unattractive roll/dodge aspect of the game.

That's what I was talking about people always talk about how zss players spam it against them and they can't punish it. Before 1 month ago there was a thread everyday about how to punish flip jump spamming. It's more of a better air dodge than a roll or anything and it was in brawl too.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hit her out of it... there is barely vulnerable flames, it is hardly practical to start planning to slap flip jumps unless its thrown around *that* predictably* you're better off just waiting for her next option and dealing with that. The thing is another extension of this unattractive roll/dodge aspect of the game.

Seriously, it's not even worth challenging that move. It's like you take all the risk for very little reward. I'll just sit in shield.

 

[TriTails]

Really? I hit ZSS out of her Flip Jump all the time with Cyclone (Speak for yourself toots. This is the original Luigi Cyclone and not the Kong one ), U-air, and F-air.

Still an annoying move, though. But is there's actually ANY invincibility frames? Seriously, I never noticed it.

 

[PUK]

I think @Lavani found that ZSS is fully intangible during the first third of the move or something like that.

 

[TriTails]

Oh. So the part where she jumps out. And they say knowledge is power!

Thanks.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Whoever made flip jump never heard of end-lag.
Probably was left in charge of Sheiks Fair too.

 

[TriTails]

At least Luigi's F-air has F7 execution and BLEEPING 22 FRAMES OF LANDING LAG THIS GAME IS STUPID!

Although, I agree Flip Junp is a bit overtuned. Just... what da **** she is supposed to be here one second. Next second I got a kick to the back and I go flying with her taking minimal lag. Honestly, if you don't know how to deal with this move this is just about as annoying as LM tanking everything with smashes and punish you for landing a hit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

No flip jump is amazing but some people call it nigh unpunishable. Hit her out of it or just air dodge into it if they spam it.

And then there's Rosalina, who can dodge it all day but it will still bounce off of Luma. (Bouncing Fish does the same thing.)

It's amazing how Luma is sometimes Rosalina's biggest enemy in specific situations.

 

[Trifroze]

Guess this is a good time to throw this thought here: people often underrate their "top 15" mains until they seriously pick other characters, especially ones that are considered mid to low tier, and realize just how much more weaknesses they have. The best thing about balance in Smash 4 is that no character comes without clear downsides; ground mobility, aerial mobility and deceleration/acceleration, range and hitboxes, approach options, defensive options, options in disadvantage, options in advantage, recovery, damage output, kill power, grab game, frame data whether it's startup, endlag or landing lag and a bunch of more specific factors all have their own considerable effects in how a character plays, and no one excels in all of those. Floatiness isn't automatically good or bad, quick fall speed isn't automatically good or bad and same with weight and gravity or the lack of those. I can list some popular top/high tiers and their weaknesses right now:

- damage output is low despite combos, kill power among the worst in the game
- damage output is low despite combos, recovery very gimpable when forced low
- range and kill power both among the worst in the game, very light weight makes it hard to stay out long
- disadvantage is bad due to floatiness and long aerials, can be rushed down pretty bad by some characters like MK, bad approach options if forced to attempt that
- even though he's fast, you can react to him from long range and he's not the fastest at midrange, plus all his approach options are unsafe and punishable
- most of her useful hitboxes are very high up and so is her shorthop, all grab variations are very slow
- approach options aren't the best, massive gravity and fall speed while being light means bad disadvantage while dying early
- requires getting in to function and bad mobility makes it difficult, recovery completely depends on preserving second jump
- poor range and damage output despite combos, recovery isn't that good distance wise
- fairly slow grab with no combo or kill throws, approaches are mostly unsafe and punishable
- easily gimpable recovery, considerable gravity and fall speed while having no practical hitboxes to hit below him means terrible disadvantage, the majority of his most praised kill moves are very committing or require a setup
- even more easily gimpable recovery, approach options are unsafe and mobility poor
- can't get anything going if killed early, slow and committing kill moves

On the other hand, if you focus on strengths you could instead say stuff like:

"down throw is op why does he combo me from 0 to 60"
"why is he so strong while having speed like that"
"wow i died to fsmash at 30%"
"howe2getin"
"can't touch this ****ing thing and keep getting gimped"
"wow i died to bthrow at 90% nerf"

The former thoughts happen when you use the character, the latter thoughts happen when you play versus the character. The more annoying it feels the more likely they are high tier in this game though, but also it may mean you really need to practice the matchup. I could go on and on and I kinda did more than I planned to, but this should get the point across. There are some characters that have arguably less polarizing weaknesses but they also usually have less polarizing strengths. I'd personally put Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic and maybe ZSS and Pikachu in that category, and expect them to be top 5-6 eventually because of that.

 

[Blobface]

Its pretty fantastic/hilarious that up-tilt increases his overall frame speed average by almost 50% by it self

Of course it does. It is the VOLCANO KICK after all. Everyone knows that it takes Volcanoes exactly 81 frames to erupt.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You should've prolly made a list for the other characters good things about them too, trifroze.

 

[Antonykun]

here's a quick list of move that I know hit villager after ledge invincibility.
Down Smash
(offstage luma?)
Forward Smash (usually angled)

Up Smash
(off stage luma?)
Neutral B (bad/no pocket)
(grenade launch explosion the actual shots get pocketed)(explosive flame)(luma warp?)
Neutral B (can be pocketed)
(shot put)(Gale Strike)(pocketed bowling ball/tree/pot)
Side B
(headache maker)(hits balloon an the pillar hits villager) (not custom)(can be pocketed)
Down B
(tree growth you can actually water the mirror's sapling and then they get hit by the tree)

ok i think you understand

btw for customs villager mirrors, water your opponent's tree

 

[deepseadiva]

Is that post supposed to be readable

 

[Firefoxx]

here's a quick list of move that I know hit villager after ledge invincibility.

Forward Smash

Neutral B (can be pocketed)
(pocketed bowling ball/tree/pot)

Down B
(tree growth you can actually water the mirror's sapling and then they get hit by the tree)

btw for customs villager mirrors, water your opponent's tree

I was actually thinking about this earlier today, isn't Villager just the ultimate answer to customs Villager? That seems like a character with really great options to deal with a planking opponent and the ability to basically ignore the trip sapling and use it in your favor is pretty amazing

 

[TheZyzyva]

Ffamran makes the best point, we always recognize our own characters weaknesses better than others. At the same time we dont know as well the weaknesses of others, resulting oftentimes in us underrating our own mains. See: Diddy main calls Sheik best character. I mean I practically spat out my pop when I heard M2K call Ness the 3rd best. Ill bet Luco did as well. Its just what happens when you hear such an absurd statement.

This problem is made worse when personal experience exasperates the issue, when you feel personally held back by weaknesses that are, at least to you, so glaringly obvious. Without the same level of knowledge for other fighters, its constantly going to feel like an uphill battle for you. Until you know what its like maining a few different characters, and discovering where your actually main rests outside a vacuum, every molehill will feel like a mountain.

In regards to Slush, I dont know what his own experiences are like, what other characters hes familiar with, but I would certainly trust him when it comes to hard Yoshi facts, and take any opinion with some salt. If he says DA is punishable, Ill learn how to punish it, but if hes saying his aerials are bad, Ill read his reasoning and make my own decision. He has reasons for thinking that Im sure, but he also might not realize how good he actually has it.

In short, perspective is important to keep in mind when regarding ones perception, and that we cant know how broad that perspective is.

 

[Antonykun]

Is that post supposed to be readable

that post is a very long way of saying there's a lot of ways to deal with ledge camping villager

I was actually thinking about this earlier today, isn't Villager just the ultimate answer to customs Villager? That seems like a character with really great options to deal with a planking opponent and the ability to basically ignore the trip sapling and use it in your favor is pretty amazing

well using villager to answer to villager is like answering a question with a slightly worded verson of the same question but yes, Villager has a strong anti zone game so its no surprise that villager does so well against this strategy

 

[Firefoxx]

As if on cue, Ninjalink is labbing out how to beat custom Villager with every character

http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink

 

[thehard]

Ninjalink breaking down custom Villager: http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink

Coincidence @ Antonykun ?

Edit: WOWW @ Firefoxx

 

[TriTails]

Some comments.

- kill power among the worst in the game

What.

Have you seen his U-smash?

"wow i died to fsmash at 30%"

This got me. True bleeping story .

that post is a very long way of saying there's a lot of ways to deal with ledge camping villager

Why.
Why didn't you mentioned the almighty 's edgeguarding tool.

Why.

DAWN TAWNT.

 

[Antonykun]

As if on cue, Ninjalink is labbing out how to beat custom Villager with every character

http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink

Ninjalink breaking down custom Villager: http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink

Coincidence @ Antonykun ?

Edit: WOWW @ Firefoxx

shame twitch eats my computer, well tell me anything i missed/actually doesn't stop villager
@ TriTails i meant to list every single move but the list got so freaking long and i think i made my point

 

[TriTails]

@ TriTails i meant to list every single move but the list got so freaking long and i think i made my point

I'm only kidding. Though, it can somehow work.

Hit it though, and even your godly Up-B can't save you .

And by the way, Luigi's D-tilt hits Villager at the ledge. Pretty sure a lot of D-tilts also do, but that'd make the list even longer.

 

[Trifroze]

What.

Have you seen his U-smash?

List 5 characters that are clearly worse at killing than Pikachu outside of gimps though. His usmash is good although a worse version of Fox's, his fsmash is good but requires a read, down b requires a read/unguaranteed setup and dash attack, uthrow and fair are basically the same as Sheik's fair, they get the stock off if everything else fails.

 

[FullMoon]

Once you get at Up-Smash kill % is when Pikachu tends to leave himself most open trying to fish for a kill. The Up-Smash has enough end lag for you to be able to punish easily after shielding it. Going from my experience at least, it's pretty easy to know when Pikachu is going for the Up-Smash kill and I often live to over 130% against him.

His Up-Throw is good for killing once all else fails though so unlike Sheik he at least has a kill throw.

 

[Antonykun]

List 5 characters that are clearly worse at killing than Pikachu outside of gimps though. His usmash is good although a worse version of Fox's, his fsmash is good but requires a read, down b requires a read/unguaranteed setup and dash attack, uthrow and fair are basically the same as Sheik's fair, they get the stock off if everything else fails.

Yep all i could think of is
(1111)

 

[Luigi player]

- even more easily gimpable recovery, approach options are unsafe and mobility poor

Just picking this one out because I want to say something about it.
Ness is seemlingly the only character in the game that can instantly move while airdodging as soon as possible after getting hit. This is great against combos and makes you feel good and free. It's really annoying to try to airdodge a followup, but you're stuck in place during it and get hit anyway. Ness doesn't have that problem.

Now that this awesome Ness-goodie is out of the way... his doublejump arc grants him some type of mobility, and I don't think his aerialmobility really is bad. Unless you're talking about runspeed etc., he's kinda slow on the ground. Good thing he has his good aerials to catch opponents with. He wishes he had his awesomly fast Brawl dashgrab... I really miss it.

 

[TriTails]

List 5 characters that are clearly worse at killing than Pikachu outside of gimps though. His usmash is good although a worse version of Fox's, his fsmash is good but requires a read, down b requires a read/unguaranteed setup and dash attack, uthrow and fair are basically the same as Sheik's fair, they get the stock off if everything else fails.

- range and kill power both among the worst in the game

Kill power isn't the same as ability to kill. U-smash KOs like a pro, and it has strong kill power. Landing it is a different story, but for killing power, Pika's got the bean.

Now if you wrote, "Pikachu can't kill/end stocks reliably". Then yes, that is true.

 

[deepseadiva]

Yall need to stop equating "the character has smash attacks" to "KO power".

 

[Sinister Slush]

In regards to Slush, I dont know what his own experiences are like, what other characters hes familiar with, but I would certainly trust him when it comes to hard Yoshi facts, and take any opinion with some salt. If he says DA is punishable, Ill learn how to punish it, but if hes saying his aerials are bad, Ill read his reasoning and make my own decision. He has reasons for thinking that Im sure, but he also might not realize how good he actually has it.

In short, perspective is important to keep in mind when regarding ones perception, and that we cant know how broad that perspective is.

Well again he's like the new Mario where he's the balanced character to use.
Great things hindered by long cooldowns or slow startups. Good damage rack up but no kill set ups for two examples.
I'd rank him top 15, but before Diddy patch and even 3ds days, people were ranking him top 3/5 without any tournament results and just basing it off his "amazing and annoying" frame data, cause of that he got unneeded nerfs ala Little mac.
Which isn't all that good frame data btw compared to Luigi Sheik or Diddy for three good examples lol

Quite literally 0 reason to throw him up there compared to many other characters that were obviously better that weren't in peoples top 5 during the Vectoring era (which ****ed Yoshi hard) and then patch before Diddy nerfed.

As for other characters, I toy with Shulk and Greninja.

 

[Djent]

It's kind of disgusting how the limitations @ Trifroze mentioned for are mitigated (or in the case of kill power, completely eliminated) with customs. I think that if anything makes the gap between top and bottom tiers wider in a customs-ON game, it'll be stuff like this.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm only kidding. Though, it can somehow work.

Hit it though, and even your godly Up-B can't save you .

And by the way, Luigi's D-tilt hits Villager at the ledge. Pretty sure a lot of D-tilts also do, but that'd make the list even longer.

Villager can btw tech off walls if he goes down by a down taunt so don't let him pick omegas and duck hunt

 

[Kofu]

@ Antonykun are you sure 's FSmash hits Villager on the ledge? It hits pretty high up and you can't angle it. Down Air does hit him though. Additionally, fully charged Jet Hammer from hits ledge hangers. Crazy impractical (especially since I'm pretty sure it HAS to be fully charged) but insanely powerful.

 

[Megamang]

It's kind of disgusting how the limitations @ Trifroze mentioned for are mitigated (or in the case of kill power, completely eliminated) with customs. I think that if anything makes the gap between top and bottom tiers wider in a customs-ON game, it'll be stuff like this.

While heavy skull bash is a little ridiculous, on average characters with worse options are going to benefit from everyone gaining options. I mean sure, shiek's custom needles have their niche uses, but her needles are so damn good its not necessary. Palutena is completely changed by two customs.

 

[Antonykun]

@ Antonykun are you sure 's FSmash hits Villager on the ledge? It hits pretty high up and you can't angle it. Down Air does hit him though. Additionally, fully charged Jet Hammer from hits ledge hangers. Crazy impractical (especially since I'm pretty sure it HAS to be fully charged) but insanely powerful.

I could be wrong but do remember that her giant head is really high up