Character Competitive Impressions

[TriTails]

Don't everyone need a read to get kills...?

 

[Ulevo]

Don't everyone need a read to get kills...?

No. To give you an example, if I as Meta Knight throw out my dash attack against you in neutral within a certain space, I can cross you up. However, if you fail to shield in time or try to intercept me and mess up, I get a free Shuttle Loop. That leads to a kill. In this instance I'm not trying to read you, I'm fishing for a kill by putting you in to a situation where you have to react or choose properly in a poor situation.

As a Luigi main you should know you don't have to read someone to get a kill. Anytime you throw out a Fireball at a set range you force them in to a situation where whether they block or get hit they get grabbed, which leads in to a kill combo.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know how developed the other character boards were, and subsequently how developed each character was, so I could be quite wrong on this. That being said, I feel Marth placing well was largely due an underdevelopment of other characters overall and the Marth community putting in a lot of work. Marth was overrated in Brawl as a character in my opinion.



If you have to get a read to get kills, you have a hard time killing people.

And yet here we see once again the Marth community puttin in a ton of work. We were the first board to have full frame data for our character and one of the first boards to have a thread concerning his advanced metagame.

And yet his results are nowhere near what they were in Brawl.

I wonder why?????

 

[Ulevo]

And yet here we see once again the Marth community puttin in a ton of work. We were the first board to have full frame data for our character and one of the first boards to have a thread concerning his advanced metagame.

And yet his results are nowhere near what they were in Brawl.

I wonder why?????

It's quite obvious why. I'm just saying that the discrepancy between Marth and other characters in Brawl was exaggerated because the time, studying, and lab work done by Marth mains compared to other character meta was likely rather large. It's quite obvious that this time around his shackles a little too heavy.

 

[Antonykun]

Don't everyone need a read to get kills...?

some reads are easier than other but yeah you don't just kill a guy at high level with out making a read/bait

 

[Pyr]

Anytime you throw out a Fireball at a set range you force them in to a situation where whether they block or get hit they get grabbed, which leads in to a kill combo.

This is only true if your jab or oos options suck. You shouldn't be losing to a wigi that looks for a grab for every kill. Seriously. Getting hit by the fireball doesn't stun for very long at all.

Anyway why are you playing at that set range anyway? You make it sound like it's free of Luigi. It's only free if you let it be free.

 

[TriTails]

No. To give you an example, if I as Meta Knight throw out my dash attack against you in neutral within a certain space, I can cross you up. However, if you fail to shield in time or try to intercept me and mess up, I get a free Shuttle Loop. That leads to a kill. In this instance I'm not trying to read you, I'm fishing for a kill by putting you in to a situation where you have to react or choose properly in a poor situation.

Thanks.

But by the way, killing with Luigi is not that easy. People can just get hit and F-tilt. BAM! You can't grab. Though, you can sometimes get a free B-air, which kills.

some reads are easier than other but yeah you don't just kill a guy at high level with out making a read/bait

Uh... I don't quite understanding what are you trying to say here.

 

[Smog Frog]

unless you have (near) guaranteed things. , , , , , , , , , (get that uair->knee down and you're ending stocks at 70%), (customs), , , probably have some sort of (nearly)guaranteed things. hallehoohah, jab->grab, SPIN2WIN->bair, many things, many things->helicopter kick, stuff->rest, many things->shuttle loop, things, banana->whatever(usually fsmash), many things, many things->upper cutter, many things->many things, stuff->boost kick, bombs-> fair. i mean yeah it takes some sort of read to get things to start in the first place, but many of these chars have some sort of safe button into a kill move of some sort. gets a shoutout because of many moves linking into kill moves(usmash, fair, uair, dsmash) and many of these buttons are safe(utilt, dtilt, nair, etc) so has a somewhat skewed risk/reward.

 

[Antonykun]

Thanks.

But by the way, killing with Luigi is not that easy. People can just get hit and F-tilt. BAM! You can't grab. Though, you can sometimes get a free B-air, which kills.


Uh... I don't quite understanding what are you trying to say here.

I mean, even you have guaranteed kill set ups off something, you still have to land the something, which requires a read or conditioning ect. some characters do not have the luxury of kill set ups (Swordfighter vs Villager for example) and require a hard read to get a stock

 

[TriTails]

Ugh. This is hurting my head. Which one is it? Need read or don't need read?

 

[Pyr]

A Schrodinger's book level of read solves that issue. But seriously it doesn't take a read only if your opponent let's you do whatever for free. It stands to reason that a read, no matter how minor, is necessary to get a kill, either off of a string or combo.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ugh. This is hurting my head. Which one is it? Need read or don't need read?

Well, a Read is something where you need to position and time your attack. You need a Read to get your opponent KO'd, but it's not necessarily the only way to KO your opponent. Just do what you feel is right to do.

 

[Nysyr]

I would generally call a move that requires a read to kill someone as one that can be reacted to either because it is slow or because it requires you to be extremely close to your opponent. This is pretty much all moves except those that have/had guaranteed setups; Diddy's old Hoo Hah for example.

Some require bigger reads than others, like you will probably never land anything other than ASC -> JCUS or side-B kills with Lucario unless your opponent did an extremely punishable move.

Edit: Kill throws are generally something I would say doesn't require a read as it is something your opponent needs to react to in a normal neutral situation rather than taking advantage of something in a disadvantaged state of your opponent.

 

[Vipermoon]

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know how developed the other character boards were, and subsequently how developed each character was, so I could be quite wrong on this. That being said, I feel Marth placing well was largely due an underdevelopment of other characters overall and the Marth community putting in a lot of work. Marth was overrated in Brawl as a character in my opinion.



If you have to get a read to get kills, you have a hard time killing people.

Okay so let's review Brawl Marth. His 8 frames of landing lag on 3 of his aerials gave him a POSITIVE advantage on shield and we're not even talking his very generous autocancel. His aerials did a lot of damage and were very strong. They came out on frames 4, 5, 6, and 7. A frame 6 spike is kind of broken. His dancing blade was extremely reliable. He had a broken up B with frame 1 invincibility out of shield (in the current game Marth only gets frame 1 inv. in the air) Not to mention his Up B had great hitbox range and kill power. Then there were the combos. We're talking about a character with some of the only combos and throw combos in Brawl. Fthrow to Fsmash, Fair, Nair, Dair, another Fthrow. Whatever you want. Then there's the grab release combos. Grab release to anything, like a frame 6 Dair spike. This is easily attainable with a long grab range...

Invite a character to Smash with disjointed hitboxes all over the place in addition to generous frame data and you get a solid, semi-broken character like Melee and Brawl Marth.

Smash 4 Marth has none of that except a useable shield breaker, counter, and slightly increased range and disjoint on many moves. He has more startup, end lag, landlag, less autocancel. You name it and it was nerfed. Smash 4 Marth loses to rolling, shielding, and camping due to having less approach options. But I love playing as Marth, he is a lot of fun. So I live through it and am thankful that there are still many people supporting his metagame. So with customs and lab workers maybe Marth can hang in there and make it to mid-tier. I'm honestly not expecting anymore patch buffs either.

 

[Hippieslayer]

What was Vinnie doing vs Cpt Awesome? :S

Like why no piercing needles? Like why not keeping track of the timer?

 

[Antonykun]

this thread has a weird relationship with brawl. Anyways Mii Swordfighter has combos beyond the simple down throw up air apparently.

 

[Jams.]

I have a question for Pac Man mains. Throughout this thread, I've heard the general sentiment that Pac Man has a difficult time with Rosalina, though it's only 40:60, while maintaining 45:55 or better with the rest of the cast. On the other hand, I've also seen the general sentiment that Pac Man is not a top 10 character.

How can this be the case? A matchup spread that good is indicative of a top 5, or even top 3 character, yet I haven't seen anyone put Pac Man remotely close to there. One 40:60 matchup, which is perfectly winnable, against a top tier character doesn't suddenly exempt a character from top 3/5/10 status. In addition, from my browsing of this thread, he seems to have even matchups or advantages against some top tiers, and also doesn't struggle against any mid or low tiers. Could a Pac Man main please explain why he isn't top 10/5/3 with such a good matchup spread?

 

[Zage]

I have a question for Pac Man mains. Throughout this thread, I've heard the general sentiment that Pac Man has a difficult time with Rosalina, though it's only 40:60, while maintaining 45:55 or better with the rest of the cast. On the other hand, I've also seen the general sentiment that Pac Man is not a top 10 character.

How can this be the case? A matchup spread that good is indicative of a top 5, or even top 3 character, yet I haven't seen anyone put Pac Man remotely close to there. One 40:60 matchup, which is perfectly winnable, against a top tier character doesn't suddenly exempt a character from top 3/5/10 status. In addition, from my browsing of this thread, he seems to have even matchups or advantages against some top tiers, and also doesn't struggle against any mid or low tiers. Could a Pac Man main please explain why he isn't top 10/5/3 with such a good matchup spread?

He isn't top 10 because his Match-up spread isn't that great, good, but not great.

He is also a character that favors neutral and has the tools to constantly reset the game to neutral (Trampoline and Hydrant) or press his advantaged state. However, there are alot of characters that can blow past that (Speedy fastfallers, characters that can one-hit the hydrant with safe moves) forcing him into the disadvantaged state which, in my opinion, is among the worst in the game.

 

[Shaya]

It's quite obvious why. I'm just saying that the discrepancy between Marth and other characters in Brawl was exaggerated because the time, studying, and lab work done by Marth mains compared to other character meta was likely rather large. It's quite obvious that this time around his shackles a little too heavy.

Marth stayed consistent, heck only got better results towards the end of Brawl's life time (at a national level, his peak across all levels was in mid 09 to mid 10). Marth's crippling flaw was RCO. At top or high level Marth was combative, if not abusive, against every high/top tier bar ICs (although at the peak of what we saw with ICs, I don't see how any character bar MK or Marth could even stand a chance). I was pretty adamant about my match up perspectives and still maintain them as such. If I look at abilities only, Marth was third maybe fourth behind Diddy, if I weigh up how much he got ****ed by RCO (i.e. I would say if you incurred RCO and are above 100% you may as well just suicide, and pre-100% was still likely to have you take a lot of damage and stay trapped at the ledge) he could be even as bad as 10th.
Unlike what opinions I hold in Smash4, I'm pretty certain I was never proven wrong with A LOT of tournament sets under my belt with high level players in mind. There were no Western Marth mains who weren't in either myself or @C.J.'s pocket for consistent match up advice and theory that was shown in practice. We did our best to keep RCO issues on the down low, but I still would never not tell someone who asked how to deal with Marth about that.

Anyway, didn't exactly want to go diatribe mode with a past game here, but mother of god I will fight to the death ANYONE on this, and I'm pretty sure EL knows this (But I do respect his position on why he thinks Marth was overrated).

Post patch, I could see Marth boasting 40:60s with Sheik and Diddy (ZSS probably not too far away either). I personally believe he has more issues with Mario and Luigi then people give credit for due to "Brawl" feelings. The rewards both of them get from grabs are crazy (in the can never ever land type of way), he doesn't wall either of them out; their damage per hit is a lot higher than him and the safety in their kill power is an issue.

 

[Vipermoon]

Post patch, I could see Marth boasting 40:60s with Sheik and Diddy (ZSS probably not too far away either). I personally believe he has more issues with Mario and Luigi then people give credit for due to "Brawl" feelings. The rewards both of them get from grabs are crazy, he doesn't wall either of them out.

THIS.

 

[Ffamran]

In the end all that matters is there at least one person showing what he is capable of at high level. In Brawl it was NEO and Mikeneko. They placed at majors. That's fine. They both more or less had the optimal style with him and saw results though Mikeneko was more passive and NEO more aggressive.

In this game I feel the dedication is there, but his flaws cap him.

Adding my thoughts to this fantastic post, if I could prove that Falco was even low tier, I would be happy. Why? 'Cause that doesn't mean he's trash. He's workable even if he's at the lower end of the spectrum. Then again, what the hell are tiers when the game has 53 characters with another and potentially several more on their way? That would take years to figure out a decent tier list much less a MU spread since there's so many characters, so many of them who don't fight the others, and so much to look at as people develop new tricks, techniques, usage of moves, and hell, let's add laziness since nobody's going to figure out the Mii Gunner MU if nobody bothers to actually play them.

Trela showed Mii Swordfighter, Charizard, and Mewtwo are capable, Aerolink and Trevonte showed Palutena is capable, aMSa showed Greninja is capable post-patch, Abadango showed Pac-Man was capable, Ryuga showed Ike is capable, Boss, J. Miller, and False showed Luigi is capable, Ally showed Mario is capable, John Numbers showed Wii Fit Trainer is capable, Zan showed Toon Link is capable, Pink Fresh, Slayerz, Gluten, and lloD showed Peach is capable, Rice showed Dr. Mario is capable, Will showed DK is capable, Nairo showed the Pits and Zelda are capable, and we all know about Rosalina, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Fox being capable. What more do you need? Sure, some might not be as capable, but they're capable, they're not getting shut down, and they're standing on their own, so what more do you need? It's not even a year and characters should all be capable. If it was 5 freaking years, then there better be a list of who's not capable since potential would be much lower than now.

Also having a huge fanbase can actually skew your results. If you have an army, but most of your army is full of weaklings well is that doing you any good? Of course it isn't.

Or if your army was mostly made up of tier elitists. Once Falco lost his jankiest, broken-***, and dirtiest tools from Melee and Brawl, people just skipped town. That part of the army was the reason why Falco dropped so low because their vocal opinion was that Falco was *** compared to everyone. That army is the reason I'm a Falco main - just pure hatred and rage against them. Silly reason to main a character, but anger is one hell of a fuel.

Honestly you shouldnt even need to examine tournament results. Just LOOK at their tools and see if the char is busted or not. It just takes a little insight and experimentation. But this community has a perpetual erection for tournament results so I am forced to use them in my arguments.

The sad part is that most characters are looked at for one or a few moves. When Sheik's Bair was nerfed, it was all hell. Yes, she's nerfed, yes, she lost a killing tool, but that doesn't automatically make her drop down to unusable. Diddy's lost his powerful Uair and Fair, but that doesn't mean he drops down low tier since those are two moves out of his 27? moves and that doesn't count his customs. Those are overreactions, but they exist and they kill characters. Case in point: Meta Knight, Marth, Falco, and Greninja.

Falco being defined by Blaster in Brawl for a lot of people doesn't help. At least he had Reflector in Melee, but by Brawl, it was all Blaster and Blaster was poorly designed from the get-go. The fact it auto-canceled when he had a projectile that stunned was already stupid, so let's make it so he can shoot twice before auto-canceling in Brawl... Now it doesn't auto-cancel and the end lag remains similar from Melee and Brawl which makes it a horrible projectile when you factor in his air speed, lightweight, and poor horizontal movement. Falco always had the tools to fight up close, but nobody bothered when they could camp the entire game. That part of him never hit the spotlight (for the masses) and was apparently forgotten in Smash 4 since he had a strong up close game since Melee. Blaster just made it easier for him to get close, but it was too good and overshadowed his up close game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Whether you need a read to get a kill or not depends on your character. Having one amazingly powerful KO move doesn't mean anything if that's he only option you have. That's Mario's crippling flaw. Sure, his usmash is a great KO move but if he's not able to land it he simply won't close down his opponent's stock because nothing else can really cut it. You either need a reliable setup into your main KO move or you need a couple of bread and butter moves that randomly start killing at certain percent. Falco's bair is a good example for that - even if you're good at covering yourself against his smashes he still has some pocket options left which makes him OK at getting a KO even though he doesn't have anything that compares with Mario's usmash.

 

[Trifroze]

You either pick a character because you like them or you want to win.

It only gets complicated when, we as humans get attached to certain archetypes or soulless pieces of data and feel "loyalty" (This concept disgusts me, as there is nothing to be loyal too. Marth isn't going to shake my hand because I been playing him since melee. He doesn't exist.)

Well that's awfully shallow. Not everyone needs physical acknowledgment or reward in every situation to feel positive. You can go too far in everything, but the action of doing something by itself or valuing a certain idea often feels a lot more rewarding, and feels are really the only method of measurement since that's why we ultimately do anything at all.

 

[outfoxd]

Duck Hunt Dog is another example of a character crippled by a reliance on reads. He has interminable set ups for damage but little that reliably ends stocks at a reasonable percentage, like Dunnobro said earlier. And its worse because his smashes are slow and also unreliable, so players can't even count on a succession read all the time.

I've pinballed people to nearly 200% sometimes before losing my stock anyway, though I suppose a lot of that is my fault.

 

[Djent]

Falco always had the tools to fight up close, but nobody bothered when they could camp the entire game. That part of him never hit the spotlight (for the masses) and was apparently forgotten in Smash 4 since he had a strong up close game since Melee. Blaster just made it easier for him to get close, but it was too good and overshadowed his up close game.

I think most people who followed Japan's scenes closely knew this. Masha, Aki, and especially SLS made this aspect of his game impossible to ignore.

I think Falco has settled into the "viable low tier" spot in most people's minds. That's where he belongs for the time being IMO.

 

[mimgrim]

Or if your army was mostly made up of tier elitists. Once Falco lost his jankiest, broken-***, and dirtiest tools from Melee and Brawl, people just skipped town. That part of the army was the reason why Falco dropped so low because their vocal opinion was that Falco was *** compared to everyone. That army is the reason I'm a Falco main - just pure hatred and rage against them. Silly reason to main a character, but anger is one hell of a fuel.

You know, I had a conversation with someone on the Greninja social who shared a similar mentality that you are expressing here and why it is a bad mentality.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-pond-greninja-social-thread.368762/page-52#post-19140626

Start with that post of his, then read mine right below it then scroll down to where he quotes mine then again mine right under his.

The mentality against people who go for the best, or one of the best, character(s) in a game is really ****ing stupid at times. There's nothing wrong with them "jumping ship" or what have you, they clearly just have a different kind of mindset (that is neither better or worse then your's or mine or anyone else's mindset).

 

[oldkingcroz]

Everyone is in it to win, right? Some people would just rather win with style opposed to winning as a top-top tier. Either way, both people still have the same goal. I dunno why there would be hate coming from one side to the other.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Or if your army was mostly made up of tier elitists. Once Falco lost his jankiest, broken-***, and dirtiest tools from Melee and Brawl, people just skipped town. That part of the army was the reason why Falco dropped so low because their vocal opinion was that Falco was *** compared to everyone. That army is the reason I'm a Falco main - just pure hatred and rage against them. Silly reason to main a character, but anger is one hell of a fuel.

This is ironically why I sympathize with Mii Sword so much and try to play him when I can, at least once per session. The elitist mob ran him over and refuse to look back.

And yet, every once in a while when I win as Mii Sword, my opponent goes into hissy-fit salt mode and insists I was cheating. What a strange sub-meta.

 

[Thinkaman]

Passing thought relative to this discussion:

Certain characters and playstyles are more socially acceptable as top characters.

If Marth, Fox, Diddy, Link, Ganon, or ZSS was/is a dominant character, no one will care much.

If Villager, Pac-Man, DHD, WFT, Sonic, or a Mii was equally dominant, there would be riots.

 

[Ffamran]

You know, I had a conversation with someone on the Greninja social who shared a similar mentality that you are expressing here and why it is a bad mentality.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-pond-greninja-social-thread.368762/page-52#post-19140626

Start with that post of his, then read mine right below it then scroll down to where he quotes mine then again mine right under his.

The mentality against people who go for the best, or one of the best, character(s) in a game is really ****ing stupid at times. There's nothing wrong with them "jumping ship" or what have you, they clearly just have a different kind of mindset (that is neither better or worse then your's or mine or anyone else's mindset).

My issue is the trashing on the characters that ****** me off. Falco, bad, fine whatever, play another character or deal with it. I don't care who you use, but trashing on a character and making people second guess themselves is what annoys me to no end. People do this to all characters, good, bad, or average. There are Diddy players who've been told to stop playing their favorite character from Donkey Kong Country because Diddy happens to be amazing in Smash 4, there are players who are mocked for playing as Link because of his play style as a projectile user and his past standings in tiers, people are mocked for playing as characters of different genders, and there are people who hate Villager, Sonic, Rosalina, and Duck Hunt and call them toxic characters. It's that mentality that I dislike, the jerk, butthurt, and superiority or inferiority if they're trying to justify their low tier hero status complex.

They're opinions, yes, even if they're just mean and people shouldn't listen to them, people are affected by them. Why and who you play, I don't care. If people just said, "Falco's bad. Guess I'll have to find another main", then that's fine. People might think he's bad and might try him out or just continue on, but it's the comments like, "Falco sucks now! Can't do **** and can't kill", "I want Melee Falco back. This semi-clone is worthless", and, "Looks like he's the worst character in the game", that are unnecessary and hurtful. What's worse is that it spreads from toxic and stupid YouTube comments to reddit, Smashboards, and tournament commentary. Hearing constant negative opinions on a character is likely going to hurt their reputation severely, especially if they're just parrot calls that perpetuate misinformation. Most people won't look into facts like frame data or even if a good player places well with a character unless it's "groundbreaking" like J. Miller winning with Luigi against a Diddy player who I don't remember and even then, it might mean little like Ito taking a match off of ZeRo's Captain Falcon with Meta Knight.

People will be people, so nothing can be helped. I just happened to be enraged by people trashing on characters, specifically Falco. And like I said, it's silly for me to be like this, but whatever.

 

[DunnoBro]

Passing thought relative to this discussion:

Certain characters and playstyles are more socially acceptable as top characters.

If Marth, Fox, Diddy, Link, Ganon, or ZSS was/is a dominant character, no one will care much.

If Villager, Pac-Man, DHD, WFT, Sonic, or a Mii was equally dominant, there would be riots.

It sucks miis would be so controversial not because of playstyle but just because they're miis.

 

[Thinkaman]

-snip-

All of this.

It really warps the perceptions of character capabilities at the bottom. We saw this in Melee, where the bottom tiers were god-awful but even then not as bad as the regularly scheduled Two Minute Hate made them out to be.

In Brawl, we saw this with Ganondorf. Yeah, Ganon was pretty bad! But not half as unplayable garbage as people implied; and that goes double for the characters just above him.

Now in Smash 4, yes. Zelda is a bad character, and probably the worst in the game for 1v1. But man, Zelda is pretty great for 52nd place, all things considered.



But can I still trash talk Sonic? In my defense, he started it.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Yet I'm still not 100% certain why Miis are as controversial for being Miis as they are. Movesets? Just pretend there's 12 characters instead of 3 I guess. Sizes? The only thing Mii size does is determine how shot-in-the-foot you are playing them. Just expect a 0/0 sized Mii. If they're using 50/50, you have a slight advantage. 100/100 might trip you up because of the ****ty movement speed and crappy jump height, but just pretend they're always walking and shorthopping.

I'll never quite understand why Miis are banned by sizes like the game is a goddamn betting poll or something. Can nobody adapt to the game? Like seriously, can we examine how well people can adapt or not adapt at Smash Bros constantly? Is that not what "reading" is, in itself?

 

[warionumbah2]

The hype for Ito's MK taking a game off ZeRo came and went like a gust of wind. Same with Mii sword fighter.

 

[Ffamran]

But can I still trash talk Sonic? In my defense, he started it.

Not my problem since I don't play as Sonic much and there's a difference between trash-talking and outright spewing **** on a character because of who, what, and where they are. If Sonic is being played campy, then hate the player and not the character since Sonic can rushdown and play very aggressively as 6wX showed the world.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Incidentally, I'm 99% certain any character can be played offensively or defensively, dependent on the player. Which really means that the player themself dictates how a character functions. Which leads me to wonder if character hate is just player hate masked by the game itself.

Less "Sonic is a campy ass" and more "This guy using Sonic is a campy ass".

And then you open up a can of worms wondering if the campy Sonic guy would do better playing a character more inherently campy like I don't know Village or DHD or Mii Gunner or something.

 

[Thinkaman]

Incidentally, I'm 99% certain any character can be played offensively or defensively, dependent on the player. Which really means that the player themself dictates how a character functions. Which leads me to wonder if character hate is just player hate masked by the game itself.

Less "Sonic is a campy ***" and more "This guy using Sonic is a campy ***".

And then you open up a can of worms wondering if the campy Sonic guy would do better playing a character more inherently campy like I don't know Village or DHD or Mii Gunner or something.

We've talked about this before in thread, but the difference between "offensive" and "defensive" options are often unclear and subjective in the first place.

The best working definition I can suggest is that offensive options beat doing nothing, and defensive options lose to doing nothing. (Often in the form of a frame disadvantage.)

Safe projectile spam is, imo, still ultimately an offensive action. (Because safety doesn't matter to the subject.)

 

[Trifroze]

It sucks miis would be so controversial not because of playstyle but just because they're miis.

I think it's mostly brawler and that's because he relies on one really op move to kill and the lightest one isn't balanced at all in terms of weight, mobility and lag.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck Hunt Dog is another example of a character crippled by a reliance on reads.

Dogs can't read

I honestly believe duck hunt has one of the worst set of smashes in the game. 2nd after sheik maybe. Laggy, weak, no shield damage, the awkward hitboxes that lead to them just not connecting the strong hit, incapable of punishing rolls consistently/hard since none of them hit anywhere inside him or linger at all.

People make a big deal about fsmash but they ignore the angling is random, people fall out, and unlike megaman's it's super low to the ground and has no shield push or lingering properties so it can't catch rolls or ledge get-ups well at all.

It's even worse he DESPERATELY needs rage mode to kill at decent percents with his aerials, but rage mode makes his smashes less likely to work.

I honestly can't stand using default duck hunt anymore.

 

[Firefoxx]

Incidentally, I'm 99% certain any character can be played offensively or defensively, dependent on the player. Which really means that the player themself dictates how a character functions. Which leads me to wonder if character hate is just player hate masked by the game itself.

Less "Sonic is a campy ***" and more "This guy using Sonic is a campy ***".

And then you open up a can of worms wondering if the campy Sonic guy would do better playing a character more inherently campy like I don't know Village or DHD or Mii Gunner or something.

People say that Sonic is campy because the best strat with Sonic looks campy. He can punish anything from anywhere, so why stand next to your opponent? Its much safer to be halfway across the stage and you get the same rewards as you would for being next to them. Same thing goes for optimal Falcon play. But Falcon has lots of follow-ups that often lead to KOs in a way that people find aesthetically pleasing, so people get hype for Falcon but hate Sonic despite them having similar gameplans