Character Competitive Impressions

[PUK]

mt. rushmore of tech requirements:

Megaman really?
is more technical

 

[Firefoxx]

Greninja isn't that much of a technical character, tbh.

True, but he does get a hell of a lot out of perfect pivoting since his up and down tilts are so great and set up everything in his arsenal.

Megaman really?
is more technical

I mean, Oli/Alph is pretty technical, but lemon spam isn't the only thing Megaman is out there doing. Occasionally he presses B.

(I kid, MM's spacing game is actually kinda hard to maintain)

 

[Nu~]

Guess Pac-Man isn't technical. News to me.

Megaman really?
is more technical

You forgot:
= win

 

[David Viran]

True, but he does get a hell of a lot out of perfect pivoting since his up and down tilts are so great and set up everything in his arsenal.

Zss gets PP ftilt and utilt which are pretty good but PP dsmash is where it's at. People need to dsmash more.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's not always that simple with characters in fighting games or anywhere that has a choice like that.

To what part of my post are you referring too?

Also, my point stands. Marth is not good.

@ Y Yonder Marth has a ton of tourney representation. You just don't see it because he gets knocked out before top 8. Every other day Marth mains are posting tourney results in his forum. Do not confuse weak with unpopular. They are not the same. Marth has an army of people playing and a very dedicated community. More than enough for anyone to come to the conclusion that lack of representation is not why he isn't placing in the money.

 

[Antonykun]

Guess Pac-Man isn't technical. News to me.

You forgot:
= win

Pac man isn't so much technical as he is really creative and intuitive

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Greninja isn't that much of a technical character, tbh.

His technical requirement is movement I think. He has some super duper weird dashes, so dance trotting and perfect pivoting is HARD AS *BLEEP*

 

[Nu~]

Pac man isn't so much technical as he is really creative and intuitive

Very true. But he can come off as very technical to people who play characters like captain falcon and diddy.

So many people have dropped Pac-Man because they claim that they have to memorize so much and that he has too many options. Why are you memorizing? Use your imagination!

And the endless possibilities with this character is one of the greatest reasons why I main him.

 

[Luco]

Pac man isn't so much technical as he is really creative and intuitive

Mamash agreement.

In Brawl, ZSS had glide toss and a few CGs and outside of that it was more what you did with her tools that was what gave her the illusion of being super technical. You'd see someone like Salem using his items in creative ways and creating walls and then grabbing people for free because they couldn't punish him. Her mobility allowed her to be really creative about what she did, she could do some beautiful followups off Dsmashes (most of which still apply in S4) that could be mixed up at will, like pivot grabbing or footstooling ---> stuff. For the most part, her success came from an abundance of tools that she could use creatively - items, multiple ways to recover, guaranteed followups, etc.

Characters like Peach or Lucas on the other hand were incredibly technical. Lucas had insane options... IF you could master B-reverse zap jumps utilising the wavebounce, allowing you to pull off magnet pulls that made PKT unnecessary. Or Z-cancelling into stuff consistently, or mastering the Dtilt lock or thundersliding as a surprise option... players like FAE showed off this insanely flashy Lucas whilst flicking their controllers in a way that would make you think they're playing Melee instead.

 

[Smog Frog]

with you have to be super precise about . like . also fading back with lemons can be difficult since his manufacturers forgot to lube him up. his friction is too great.

 

[BBC7]

G&W will probably be high up,maybe midtier. He has some interesting shenanigans,usmash gives him invincibility frames(4 to 26)on his head and he does really well against energy-projectile characters like Lucario and Samus.Not to mention the 9 is op. The reason im saying midtier is that if you hit a 1,you can get punished badly because of that 12% penalty and Oil Panic cant absorb arrows or stuff like that.

If you're going to talk about how good G&W is, I wouldn't use Standard Judge and Bucket as your main support. Sure, he has the novelty of gambling for kills, but it isn't his defining feature that will win him games, nor is it the ability to absorb projectiles for an OHKO move. Both are gimmicks that are excellent if they work, but are not reliable enough to define the character at a competitive level. Personally, I find his disjointed aerials and neutral game to be much more interesting.

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's how Ganondorf's F-Tilt works for edge-guarding: Make sure to grab the ledge, because if you don't sweetspot or grab it, you're screwed against Ganondorf's F-Tilt.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja isn't technical in the sense that there's really not much complicated to do about the character. Compared to the likes of Pac-Man, Shulk and Peach, he's pretty straight-forward.

What makes Greninja hard is that he's a very weird and "non-standard" character that does require good spacing and timing in order to work well. The main thing that's hard about Greninja is getting used to how he works, once you do get the feel for him, he becomes a pretty simple character to play with since he doesn't have things like Shulk's arts and MALLC or Peach's float shenanigans.

Of course when you factor in things like Greninja's ridiculous footstool combos and PP distance, then he gets pretty crazy.

 

[Woohoo982]

If you're going to talk about how good G&W is, I wouldn't use Standard Judge and Bucket as your main support. Sure, he has the novelty of gambling for kills, but it isn't his defining feature that will win him games, nor is it the ability to absorb projectiles for an OHKO move. Both are gimmicks that are excellent if they work, but are not reliable enough to define the character at a competitive level. Personally, I find his disjointed aerials and neutral game to be much more interesting.

Oh yeah,I forgot about those op aerials of his.His tilts aren't bad either,and Fire can combo into at LEAST one or two non-dair aerials. Again-G&W for mid-high tier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

To what part of my post are you referring too?

Also, my point stands. Marth is not good.

@ Y Yonder Marth has a ton of tourney representation. You just don't see it because he gets knocked out before top 8. Every other day Marth mains are posting tourney results in his forum. Do not confuse weak with unpopular. They are not the same. Marth has an army of people playing and a very dedicated community. More than enough for anyone to come to the conclusion that lack of representation is not why he isn't placing in the money.

The last part I bolded.

The why pick him part, it ca be more complicated and not a simple answer.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The last part I bolded.

The why pick him part, it ca be more complicated and not a simple answer.

You either pick a character because you like them or you want to win.

It only gets complicated when, we as humans get attached to certain archetypes or soulless pieces of data and feel "loyalty" (This concept disgusts me, as there is nothing to be loyal too. Marth isn't going to shake my hand because I been playing him since melee. He doesn't exist.)

 

[Quickhero]

You either pick a character because you like them or you want to win.

It only gets complicated when, we as humans get attached to certain archetypes or soulless pieces of data and feel "loyalty" (This concept disgusts me, as there is nothing to be loyal too. Marth isn't going to shake my hand because I been playing him since melee. He doesn't exist.)

I'm curious as to what you think on playing a character for nostalgia. What if you play said character because he brings fond memories and playing him reminds you of some good times, and thus you will still play him despite the difficulty in winning as him in comparison to other characters. Do you consider that as liking someone? Or just being extremely loyal?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You either pick a character because you like them or you want to win.

It only gets complicated when, we as humans get attached to certain archetypes or soulless pieces of data and feel "loyalty" (This concept disgusts me, as there is nothing to be loyal too. Marth isn't going to shake my hand because I been playing him since melee. He doesn't exist.)

Sometimes people really like a concept or a character's playstyle.

I don't mind someone wanting to main someone in each iteration no matter how good or bad but w/e that is their choice in the end.

 

[webbedspace]

You either pick a character because you like them or you want to win OR you relish being a Low Tier Hero who pleases the crowd with a rare character pick and the underdog status that comes with it. (All three of these are noble goals.)

 

[Blobface]

To what part of my post are you referring too?

Also, my point stands. Marth is not good.

@ Y Yonder Marth has a ton of tourney representation. You just don't see it because he gets knocked out before top 8. Every other day Marth mains are posting tourney results in his forum. Do not confuse weak with unpopular. They are not the same. Marth has an army of people playing and a very dedicated community. More than enough for anyone to come to the conclusion that lack of representation is not why he isn't placing in the money.

Out of curiosity, have Marth players been doing better customs on or customs off?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You either pick a character because you like them or you want to win OR you relish being a Low Tier Hero who pleases the crowd with a rare character pick and the underdog status that comes with it. (All three of these are noble goals.)

nothing noble about being a low tier hero FOH with that garbage.

Man I've been playing Mario for the last couple of days and I'm liking him.I'm finding it pretty hard to kill people with him....Does he have any kill set ups ? But this character is intriguing me I looked at his frame data and holy hell man, His frame data is extremely impressive. Also his uair is ridiculous. I think that maybe his best move....I think Mario is a threat in the meta.

 

[Vipermoon]

Out of curiosity, have Marth players been doing better customs on or customs off?

ON.

Crescent Slash is one of the best customs in the game. It's a great mindgame move, has a lot of invincibility and takes you perfectly to platform height (like Smashville platform). Combos off of Fthrow, Fair, Bair, hell maybe even jab and Ftilt. Who knows with how new this game is. But most of all, it combos into GRAB RELEASE on many characters. We're talking Brawl-like shenanigans now.

 

[Firefoxx]

nothing noble about being a low tier hero FOH with that garbage.

Man I've been playing Mario for the last couple of days and I'm liking him.I'm finding it pretty hard to kill people with him....Does he have any kill set ups ? But this character is intriguing me I looked at his frame data and holy hell man, His frame data is extremely impressive. Also his uair is ridiculous. I think that maybe his best move....I think Mario is a threat in the meta.

If he had kill set-ups everyone would know about them cause there are a billion Mario's everywhere. I think the only thing he has that's close to a "set-up" is jab lock to f-smash

 

[Vipermoon]

nothing noble about being a low tier hero FOH with that garbage.

Man I've been playing Mario for the last couple of days and I'm liking him.I'm finding it pretty hard to kill people with him....Does he have any kill set ups ? But this character is intriguing me I looked at his frame data and holy hell man, His frame data is extremely impressive. Also his uair is ridiculous. I think that maybe his best move....I think Mario is a threat in the meta.

If he had kill set-ups everyone would know about them cause there are a billion Mario's everywhere. I think the only thing he has that's close to a "set-up" is jab lock to f-smash

I think Mario has the best frame data around and is definitely one of the more "broken" characters in the game. Master his combos into Fair spike (one of the probably 200 combos this character has) then yeah you have his kill setup. Not that he has trouble killing and doing damage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

nothing noble about being a low tier hero FOH with that garbage.

Man I've been playing Mario for the last couple of days and I'm liking him.I'm finding it pretty hard to kill people with him....Does he have any kill set ups ? But this character is intriguing me I looked at his frame data and holy hell man, His frame data is extremely impressive. Also his uair is ridiculous. I think that maybe his best move....I think Mario is a threat in the meta.

Where the hell have you been?

 

[Yonder]

I think Mario has the best frame data around and is definitely one of the more "broken" characters in the game. Master his combos into Fair spike (one of the probably 200 combos this character has) then yeah you have his kill setup. Not that he has trouble killing and doing damage.

His and Luigi's are the best I think. Diddy's too. I hear Samus has great frame data too? And Kirby has the least landing lag in the game.

 

[Firefoxx]

His and Luigi's are the best I think. Diddy's too. I hear Samus has great frame data too? And Kirby has the least landing lag in the game.

Samus' frame data is the most misleading. Great start-up times, bad end lag

 

[Browny]

You either pick a character because you like them or you want to win.

It only gets complicated when, we as humans get attached to certain archetypes or soulless pieces of data and feel "loyalty" (This concept disgusts me, as there is nothing to be loyal too. Marth isn't going to shake my hand because I been playing him since melee. He doesn't exist.)

I pick characters because I want to style on people with swag combos.

Also you sound like a completely different person from the Brawl EL when it comes to justifying how good/bad marth is. To be honest Marth had the same issue there, he had a disproportionately high amount of players in tournaments compared to his relatively low tournament rankings. I guess in smash 4 it really is hard to envision some skill ceiling with Marth.

 

[Ffamran]

His and Luigi's are the best I think. Diddy's too. I hear Samus has great frame data too? And Kirby has the least landing lag in the game.

Samus is fast, but I don't know about end lag. Her Uair is amazing and it's frame 5 - 1 frame faster than Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's godplayer Uair. So, she might be fast on the draw, but if her end lag is average or bad, then she needs to be on point at all times. Not to mention taking into account auto-cancel frames if she has any.

Meanwhile, Zelda not only has average to bad frame data - slowest jab in the game -, her end lag is fairly bad if not average. Yeah... Bad character design as in maybe she's amazing on paper, but Din's Fire's helpess state, the horrible sour-spots for Fair and Bair, Dtilt basically being her jab which means air targets will hurt her, nonexistent aerial approach or poking game, Ftilt being slow and having dead zones, and slow mobility kills her in practice.

Also, I thought Sheik's landing lag was the lowest, but Dair might skew that. Lucario's landing lag is fairly good from what I remember. Well, I'll need to check Kirby then. The Pits' landing lag makes me sad...

 

[Yonder]

Actually come to think of it, I remember in the frame data thread [http://smashboards.com/threads/list...to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/#post-18476853] that Mario's frame data overall is better that 81% of the casts. The rest were not calculated in that fashion so I have to wonder now...who truly has the frame data better than 100% of the cast? Anyone wanna calculate? I would...but I fail at math. Very curious. Bonus marks for someone who calculates who has the worst overall frame data too.

 

[Vipermoon]

His and Luigi's are the best I think. Diddy's too. I hear Samus has great frame data too? And Kirby has the least landing lag in the game.

Luigi is good for a different reason. See he has broken fireballs and 10 options after a downthrow into kills. And for the life of me I can't figure out how Luigi's Fair does 9 damage when Sheik's does 5. But horrible mobility, punishable recovery, and no grip on the ground (like for shield pushback) keeps this character at bay. Diddy never had broken frame data. He lags a bit in some cases and has a lot of landing lag after Fair and Uair. Now that he can't kill we no longer have an answer to Rosalina. Kirby however has plenty of kill power and really good frame data plus the lowest landing lag in the game. And with multiple jumps and the greatest down air ever I don't see how everyone keeps sleeping on him.

 

[David Viran]

Samus is fast, but I don't know about end lag. Her Uair is amazing and it's frame 5 - 1 frame faster than Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's godplayer Uair. So, she might be fast on the draw, but if her end lag is average or bad, then she needs to be on point at all times. Not to mention taking into account auto-cancel frames if she has any.

Meanwhile, Zelda not only has average to bad frame data - slowest jab in the game -, her end lag is fairly bad if not average. Yeah... Bad character design as in maybe she's amazing on paper, but Din's Fire's helpess state, the horrible sour-spots for Fair and Bair, Dtilt basically being her jab which means air targets will hurt her, nonexistent aerial approach or poking game, Ftilt being slow and having dead zones, and slow mobility kills her in practice.

Also, I thought Sheik's landing lag was the lowest, but Dair might skew that. Lucario's landing lag is fairly good from what I remember. Well, I'll need to check Kirby then. The Pits' landing lag makes me sad...

If we didn't count dairs zss would be the lowest.

 

[san.]

We don't have cooldowns and safety on shield, so we'll have to wait for that.

 

[Smog Frog]

Actually come to think of it, I remember in the frame data thread [http://smashboards.com/threads/list...to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/#post-18476853] that Mario's frame data overall is better that 81% of the casts. The rest were not calculated in that fashion so I have to wonder now...who truly has the frame data better than 100% of the cast? Anyone wanna calculate? I would...but I fail at math. Very curious. Bonus marks for someone who calculates who has the worst overall frame data too.

. everything he has is <12 frames in startup and has very little ending lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I pick characters because I want to style on people with swag combos.

Also you sound like a completely different person from the Brawl EL when it comes to justifying how good/bad marth is. To be honest Marth had the same issue there, he had a disproportionately high amount of players in tournaments compared to his relatively low tournament rankings. I guess in smash 4 it really is hard to envision some skill ceiling with Marth.

In the end all that matters is there at least one person showing what he is capable of at high level. In Brawl it was NEO and Mikeneko. They placed at majors. That's fine. They both more or less had the optimal style with him and saw results though Mikeneko was more passive and NEO more aggressive.

In this game I feel the dedication is there, but his flaws cap him.

And Marth in Brawl was pretty darn consistent with his placings. Doing well in regionals and majors. (top 8)

Also did you forget I was the only Marth main saying Marth was no better then 7th in Brawl? Other Marth mains advocated he was 5th sometimes higher which was hogwash of the highest order. I am objective about my character. I do not know of the EL you speak of. Perhaps it is a caricature you and so many others created as the face of the Marth community during the Brawl era. It would certainly explain alot of the hostility that was aimed in my general direction during discussions such as this back then. But I digress, I have no interest in rehashing the past.

Also having a huge fanbase can actually skew your results. If you have an army, but most of your army is full of weaklings well is that doing you any good? Of course it isn't.

Also by your logic Pika is jokes in Brawl because only ESAM did anything with him.

Honestly you shouldnt even need to examine tournament results. Just LOOK at their tools and see if the char is busted or not. It just takes a little insight and experimentation. But this community has a perpetual erection for tournament results so I am forced to use them in my arguments.

My primary argument if I had my way, would always be...match-ups. Brawl Marth lost to Metaknight, IC's, maaaaaaaaaaaaybe Diddy and D3. That's it basically. Maaaaaaaaaaaybe Rob. Maaaaaaaaaaybe DK. (both virtually even imo) And D3, DK and ROB didn't matter in the meta so you didn't see them.

Smash 4 Marth loses to the most relevant top tiers. It's a totally different ball game.

 

[Asdioh]

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky mikekirby showing why kirby beats sheik
2 stocked vinnie game one

edit:
really close and cool games though, they kinda show what I was talking about!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Where the hell have you been?

Better late than never. ....

 

[meleebrawler]

Luigi is good for a different reason. See he has broken fireballs and 10 options after a downthrow into kills. And for the life of me I can't figure out how Luigi's Fair does 9 damage when Sheik's does 5. But horrible mobility, punishable recovery, and no grip on the ground (like for shield pushback) keeps this character at bay. Diddy never had broken frame data. He lags a bit in some cases and has a lot of landing lag after Fair and Uair. Now that he can't kill we no longer have an answer to Rosalina. Kirby however has plenty of kill power and really good frame data plus the lowest landing lag in the game. And with multiple jumps and the greatest down air ever I don't see how everyone keeps sleeping on him.

Kirby's aerials aren't that fast on startup except bair, if you're getting pressured by dair > smash a lot you're giving it too much respect.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's frame data is better than Mario's (Normals-wise). Simply looking at their F-airs should tell you easily.

And also, Mario does not struggle killing. All you need to do is to tech-chase read with an U-smash and they're done.

. everything he has is <12 frames in startup and has very little ending lag.

B-air
SJP
Green Missile
Luigi Cyclone
Dash attack

Would like to have a word with you.

Luigi is good for a different reason. See he has broken fireballs and 10 options after a downthrow into kills. And for the life of me I can't figure out how Luigi's Fair does 9 damage when Sheik's does 5. But horrible mobility, punishable recovery, and no grip on the ground (like for shield pushback) keeps this character at bay.

Horrible mobility's a stretch. Bad mobiliy is more like it.
And also, Jumpless Cyclone is beautiful.

Now that Diddy can't kill

What the hell are you going on about.

What makes Luigi good is on how powerful yet fast his aerials are. He can pull out 2 F-airs outta one shorthop and it auto-cancels. His kill set-ups are also fairly simple (Though, hard to do in some cases), Fireballs being one of the best projectiles in the game, one of the highest attack speed out there, and how brutal his combos are if you don't DI, and some more other things.

And in order to makee this character not broken, they had to 'limit' him with horrible traction, 2nd slowest air speed, and rather slow dashing speed (Pretty dang sure Luigi runs faster than Mario in games. Where's this 'character representation' that Mr. Sakurai had going on about!?). If he had an actual air speed I'll guarantee you all this character will be top tier and maybe even broken if they manage to take off his traction issues.

But sadly, those weaknesses WILL hold him back, and I'm not even sure if he'll even hit top tier in any Smash game unless his design is changed drastically.

Y'know... Like, he's the faster but weaker Mario, like how he is in SM64DS or Olympic Games... Although, why the hell did they make him as 'MUCH slower AND WEAKER' Mario in 64 I have no clue.

 

[Ulevo]

In the end all that matters is there at least one person showing what he is capable of at high level. In Brawl it was NEO and Mikeneko. They placed at majors. That's fine. They both more or less had the optimal style with him and saw results though Mikeneko was more passive and NEO more aggressive.

In this game I feel the dedication is there, but his flaws cap him.

And Marth in Brawl was pretty darn consistent with his placings. Doing well in regionals and majors. (top 8)

Also did you forget I was the only Marth main saying Marth was no better then 7th in Brawl? Other Marth mains advocated he was 5th sometimes higher which was hogwash of the highest order. I am objective about my character. I do not know of the EL you speak of. Perhaps it is a caricature you and so many others created as the face of the Marth community during the Brawl era. It would certainly explain alot of the hostility that was aimed in my general direction during discussions such as this back then. But I digress, I have no interest in rehashing the past.

Also having a huge fanbase can actually skew your results. If you have an army, but most of your army is full of weaklings well is that doing you any good? Of course it isn't.

Also by your logic Pika is jokes in Brawl because only ESAM did anything with him.

Honestly you shouldnt even need to examine tournament results. Just LOOK at their tools and see if the char is busted or not. It just takes a little insight and experimentation. But this community has a perpetual erection for tournament results so I am forced to use them in my arguments.

My primary argument if I had my way, would always be...match-ups. Brawl Marth lost to Metaknight, IC's, maaaaaaaaaaaaybe Diddy and D3. That's it basically. Maaaaaaaaaaaybe Rob. Maaaaaaaaaaybe DK. (both virtually even imo) And D3, DK and ROB didn't matter in the meta so you didn't see them.

Smash 4 Marth loses to the most relevant top tiers. It's a totally different ball game.

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know how developed the other character boards were, and subsequently how developed each character was, so I could be quite wrong on this. That being said, I feel Marth placing well was largely due an underdevelopment of other characters overall and the Marth community putting in a lot of work. Marth was overrated in Brawl as a character in my opinion.

And also, Mario does not struggle killing. All you need to do is to tech-chase read with an U-smash and they're done.

If you have to get a read to get kills, you have a hard time killing people.