Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

/. the reps they do have(if any)are probably mediocre. but lets hope serynder() keeps getting better. he's literally the only rep i can name.

Zan is the Toon Link the Toon Links need, but doesn't deserve.

 

[Browny]

Mewtwo has so many unorthodox ways to alter his movement in the air it's kind of silly. The simplest one
is basically using his confusion jump to elude a landing trap and/or change direction to better challenge his opponent.
But he also has a semi-viable means of essentially double-jump cancelling with disable (confusion can work too,
but do you really want to waste the one hop?). A disciplined player could use it to control the height he gets from his second
jump or fool opponents on the ground, particularly with it's deceptive range. And then of course there's shadow ball recoil.

Mewtwo has a double aerial momentum shift with confusion, and b reversed shadowball.

Not sure how many characters have the ability to switch directions while falling 3 times (3rd being the double jump) and that alone is a pretty strong ability. I find that b reversing first then saving the confusion hop for later can really throw people off.

 

[Djent]

The best is probably Manzoku.

 

[Planet God Venus]

I think it should be called the Ike effect more than anything, since he's the most extreme example of this. He became fast as hell because his aerials are just so freaking good with f-air and u-air having almost no landing lag, (Not to mention that they can keep up with SONIC) having a really good combo game with it (for a heavy, at least), and a really good u-smash. He clearly has the data to become the best swordsman, yet Ryuga and Ryo are like the only people that consistently play Ike and even they are seldom seen.

Falco has this effect, but I feel like it also is the fact that Falco has genuine problems with his neutral game (albeit not so much for a Falco main not to be able to manage) since they removed most of his options in the neutral from Brawl.

My state isn't popular lol.

 

[Vipermoon]

So deceleration is pretty much natural air friction? And these values are different than accel, and not necessarily proportional?

Not proportional. Quite random, actually.

 

[Antonykun]

Believe me Ganondorf loves his rage.

It's very difficult to get an idea of where Mewtwo is competitively because, well he's barely had any time to develop. It hasn't even been a month.

Which actually makes me wonder: which character has the least-developed meta right now?

Besides Mewtwo!

Tie between gunner and Swordfighter

 

[Radical Larry]

Jigglypuff's worst MU anyone?
I think it's either Ganondorf, Bowser, Marth or Lucina. (Boy, I wonder why...)

 

[Shaya]

The best is probably Manzoku.

I hadn't seen this yet, my Japanese notable player correspondent missed this; he beat Brood :O I'll make sure he finds himself on the next iteration

I've also seen Zan do something really good lately with footstooling out of up tilt (works to a notable percent) into down air which from 0% is like 60%. And from that stage up tilt up air and whatever is still very much real. Bombs into fair for kill set ups.
My thoughts of TL being towards low tier is remedied a little from this, if he has a reliable way to get a percent lead like that his game play changes a lot to not always being an ineffective zoner (because he couldn't really force the approach in the first place and his chip damage from projectiles is really really low).

 

[deepseadiva]

So I've been experimenting with Bowser Jr.(Larry) and I think he has loads of potential. His Mecha Koopa is a strong zoning tool and while his cannon isn't the best projectile, it isn't useless by any means. His side B is just mind games waiting to happen and his edge guarding game is really good especially with his up B. His ariels are really good. His up air being a good juggling tool while his forward and back air have have good priority, and his forward air can be used for both comboing and killing. I personally can see him in high to high mid tier, but I would like to know what everyone else thinks of him?

The kids are burdened with bad grab and no good GTFO move, which gets them comboed to death. Also no really easy to land KO move (though usmash is very fast).

I think those are huge problems.

But their combo game my god. If you haven't seen a talented Jr like Tweek I highly suggest it. Hitting with Clown Car is basically as good as a Luigi dthrow. With that kind of pressure, and the situations Mechakoopa creates, there's a very interesting trap based character.

 

[wm1026]

The kids are burdened with bad grab and no good GTFO move, which gets them comboed to death. Also no really easy to land KO move (though usmash is very fast).

I think those are huge problems.

But their combo game my god. If you haven't seen a talented Jr like Tweek I highly suggest it. Hitting with Clown Car is basically as good as a Luigi dthrow. With that kind of pressure, and the situations Mechakoopa creates, there's a very interesting trap based character.

It is true their grab isn't the best, but at least it isn't the worst. As far as a GTFO move, I try to use short hop neutral air and you can also jump cancel their side B to cut down on start up, so there's that. Also I have seen Tweek(part of the reason I began experimenting) and the combos.. I feel once someone gets Jr.'s traps down they will be deadly. I feel his smashes are good but they are a little more risky that some others. Like his down smash will definetly kill but the end lag is just horrid. They fixed his forward smash in the last patch so people can't just fall out of it anymore which is amazing. I use it when I read a regular ledge get up because of its multi hit properties will usually catch them and I can often net the kill that way. His up smash doesn't seem to have much in horizontal range but it is quick like you said. I just feel that the koopalings are good characters that almost no one is talking about and that's a real shame :/

 

[Nobie]

The way I see G&W, he's sort of like Reverse Ganondorf. With Ganon everyone says, "If you can get a few good reads you can take a stock" but with G&W you have a character who can consistently win in neutral and even get a few follow-ups, but it can all go tumbling down if he eats a few good reads because his killing power is decent but not quite strong enough aside from a couple of moves. It's this odd feeling where, even if G&W might be on the lower half of the tier list, he always seems like he has a chance just because of high mobility and evasion, crazy hitboxes, and she9igans, like how Ganondorf is never out of the running because of sheer power.

 

[Conda]

Low tier tourney: http://www.twitch.tv/pidgezero_one/v/4869958

 

[Antonykun]

Low tier tourney: http://www.twitch.tv/pidgezero_one/v/4869958

im always curious about low tier tourneys, what are the cutoffs? I have to wonder if anyone swordspiders...

 

[Yonder]

Believe me Ganondorf loves his rage.

It's very difficult to get an idea of where Mewtwo is competitively because, well he's barely had any time to develop. It hasn't even been a month.

Which actually makes me wonder: which character has the least-developed meta right now?

Besides Mewtwo!

Off the top of my head that I can think of, these are characters that have basically no representation in tournaments:

Bowser, Link, Zelda, Toon Link,Samus, Marth, Ike, Robin, Kirby, Falco, Jigglypuff, Doc, and Mii Gunner.

Everyone else I think has at least one noteworthy player. Of course, a bunch of those characters I listed probably have some representation...but I don't know of them. Again, off the top of my head.

 

[Shaya]

Bias n'all, but I think there are quite a few Marths out there representing, maybe not purely or loyally, but yeah.
The character really isn't strong enough to win tournaments, but is capable and has been shown to cause upsets (Nicko [I think] vs K9 for example; Mr E against Vinnie and Dabuz?)

Marth was a threat on a regional and even national stage in Brawl, but at the least he's definitely still a threat at local level. I really do enjoy playing Marth again all of a sudden though with this patch, things have stopped feeling like "I have no answer", it's just a matter of using a weaker character/having a handicap vs stronger ones.

 

[HeroMystic]

Samus has Depth, Xyro, Chozox, and a few others. I'm sure ChozoX is the most familiar but there's plenty of others.

 

[Ffamran]

Off the top of my head that I can think of, these are characters that have basically no representation in tournaments:

Bowser, Link, Zelda, Toon Link,Samus, Marth, Ike, Robin, Kirby, Falco, Jigglypuff, Doc, and Mii Gunner.

Everyone else I think has at least one noteworthy player. Of course, a bunch of those characters I listed probably have some representation...but I don't know of them. Again, off the top of my head.

Bowser has Ash23 if you're a VGBC watcher along with Oco Le Troof and Exist while Kato, Scourge, and Big Sean for Cali's scene, Zelda has Nairo whenever Nairo wants to use her, Toon Link people already said, but they're not people know if Toon Link's mentioned, Ike would have had known players had Apex not been I guess, unfavorable is the word, to the Ike players, Ryuga, Ryo, San, and Blitz, Robin has Trela?, Kirby has Mike Kirby - come on, man, it's in his name! -, and Dr. Mario has Rice if you're familiar with the Cali scene. Of all those names, only Nairo, Trela, Mike Kirby, and maybe Rice are well-known names. Everyone else depends on whether or not you follow/live in the scene or you're part of that character's community and follow everything that's going on.

So, that leaves Link, Falco, Jiggles, and Mii Gunner. I think Link has Izaw for a notable player who's done amazing things with Link, but that's pretty much it from what I know, Falco doesn't have a notable main player, but he has notable secondary players like GimR, I'm not sure on Jiggles and Mii Gunner.

 

[Radical Larry]

I do play a downright scary Link, but I know others play him amazingly as well.
When used in the right hands, Link becomes one very scary character on most opponents.

 

[Pazx]

alright larry

Here are the rules for BTB2

Wii U

• Legal characters: (D and E tier of the Japanese tier list. This is subject to change depending on the April patch.)
• Starter stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville. 1-1 striking.
• Counterpicks: Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Lylat Cruise, Town and City, Duck Hunt, Halberd. 2 stage bans. DSR applies.
• Customs are off. Miis are 1-1-1-1, dimensions follow EVO rules.
• 2 stock 6 min

 

[pidgezero_one]

huh why am I being quoted

Those are the characters from japan's tier list which we decided to use over reddit's tier list

 

[Luco]

@berserker. How are you feeling about Shulk in this tournament? Actually this applies for everyone, seeing as this appears to be a relatively large difference in how Japan thinks of Shulk vs. how the west thinks of Shulk.

Also @ pidgezero_one ! <3 *tacklehugs*

 

[andimidna]

Poor Dedede couldn't even win a low tier tournament then lol
Rip in pasta

 

[pidgezero_one]

@berserker. How are you feeling about Shulk in this tournament? Actually this applies for everyone, seeing as this appears to be a relatively large difference in how Japan thinks of Shulk vs. how the west thinks of Shulk.

Also @ pidgezero_one ! <3 *tacklehugs*

hi hi :D

 

[Vinnie]

Bias n'all, but I think there are quite a few Marths out there representing, maybe not purely or loyally, but yeah.
The character really isn't strong enough to win tournaments, but is capable and has been shown to cause upsets (Nicko [I think] vs K9 for example; Mr E against Vinnie and Dabuz?)

Marth was a threat on a regional and even national stage in Brawl, but at the least he's definitely still a threat at local level. I really do enjoy playing Marth again all of a sudden though with this patch, things have stopped feeling like "I have no answer", it's just a matter of using a weaker character/having a handicap vs stronger ones.

Mr. E never beat me btw Shaya.

 

[webbedspace]

Poor Dedede couldn't even win a low tier tournament then lol
Rip in pasta

Don't worry, here's a good Dedede set to take your mind off it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@berserker. How are you feeling about Shulk in this tournament? Actually this applies for everyone, seeing as this appears to be a relatively large difference in how Japan thinks of Shulk vs. how the west thinks of Shulk.

Shulk has like no representation whatsoever and I see him all over the place. One time he pops up in low/bottom tier and then you'll randomly see him in high tier in a different tier list. He's probably the biggest wildcard in the game atm, I don't even think anybody has figured out how to play that character yet. He's a ???-tier character and will remain one for a while.

 

[webbedspace]

I feel like Pac-Man is an even bigger wildcard - I've seen at least a dozen Shulks but only like four Pac-Mans, total. (But of course, since one got 9th at Apex, no one really wants to put him lower than low-mid.)

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Shulk is wierd, but I love him when I team with Kirby.

 

[Shaya]

Mr. E never beat me btw Shaya.

My bad, I'm thinking of that set you SLAUGHTERED him in :>

 

[Woohoo982]

The way I see G&W, he's sort of like Reverse Ganondorf. With Ganon everyone says, "If you can get a few good reads you can take a stock" but with G&W you have a character who can consistently win in neutral and even get a few follow-ups, but it can all go tumbling down if he eats a few good reads because his killing power is decent but not quite strong enough aside from a couple of moves. It's this odd feeling where, even if G&W might be on the lower half of the tier list, he always seems like he has a chance just because of high mobility and evasion, crazy hitboxes, and she9igans, like how Ganondorf is never out of the running because of sheer power.

G&W will probably be high up,maybe midtier. He has some interesting shenanigans,usmash gives him invincibility frames(4 to 26)on his head and he does really well against energy-projectile characters like Lucario and Samus.Not to mention the 9 is op. The reason im saying midtier is that if you hit a 1,you can get punished badly because of that 12% penalty and Oil Panic cant absorb arrows or stuff like that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

uhhhh, no. Marth is not "hella good". He is straight mid tier. Probably top of mid tier with CS as grab release vs good chars gives him true kill combos at the ledge.

You cannot be top 15 and have the majority of your match-ups be even and lose to top tiers. That's not how tiers work. That's not how competitive metagame works.

Ever. In any fighting game.

Who does the Emperor of Altea beat that is relevant in this game? He arguably goes even with Rosaluma, Mario, Fox, Luigi, Pikachu and Yoshi. He does not beat them. He loses to Sheik, ZSS, Diddy and Sonic.

That does not translate to hella good. Doesn't translate to terrible either. Marth ends up like so many other mid tiers. Decent, but why play him?

It's not always that simple with characters in fighting games or anywhere that has a choice like that.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashbrosspain a just made it to GFs in (what i assume) to be a spanish national.

edit:

gfs. is it a super fighting robot ditto?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Shulk has like no representation whatsoever and I see him all over the place. One time he pops up in low/bottom tier and then you'll randomly see him in high tier in a different tier list. He's probably the biggest wildcard in the game atm, I don't even think anybody has figured out how to play that character yet. He's a ???-tier character and will remain one for a while.

Shulk is bad he's not some mystery needed to be figured out he just sucks.

Shulk sucks because of slow moves unsafe moves and poor aerial mobility. He has good range on moves but that's it. His monado arts don't make up for his weaknesses and monado cancel is ok.

 

[Browny]

So do any of you theorycraft PhDs have a video showing how zss flip jump on shield is actually punishable.

no johns, serious question.

 

[Djent]

RE: the recently-discovered Palutena setup I alluded to earlier: still inconsistent on small/medium characters. Bleh.

gfs. is it a super fighting robot ditto?

Well I did hear BattleBots was starting up again.

 

[Cassio]

Judging by Trela's AMA he seems to really believe in Shulks ability to be top tier, but with currently untapped potential. Hes a character I could see progressively move up as the game advances.

 

[Smog Frog]

mt. rushmore of tech requirements:

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shulk is bad he's not some mystery needed to be figured out he just sucks.

Shulk sucks because of slow moves unsafe moves and poor aerial mobility. He has good range on moves but that's it. His monado arts don't make up for his weaknesses and monado cancel is ok.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Thanks for proving my point.

If you say so....

 

[mimgrim]

mt. rushmore of tech requirements:

Greninja isn't that much of a technical character, tbh.