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Nahhhh. I'd say definitely has better matchups here and there maybe even more in terms of quantity, but has the quality matchups on lock. Also Luigi has that death nair which is IMO super critical.
I'm glad people are speaking of them very highly now. I remember when all of yall were calling him worst in game. What a journey.
Once again I don't understand why someone is lumping me in with the general opinion of this thread. I've never once considered Mario one of the worst and I don't even consider Doc one of the worst.
Putting that aside I think Mario is strong. His Mobility is the real deal. I've played around with him before but I think I'm going to dive in deeper with him. Although I can't see him being better than Luigu.
Mario isn't better than Luigi on default settings unless Luigi gets a major nerf to either fireballs, F-air, or D-throw. Both of them lose to Rosalina but Luigi with his top boxing and KO confirm ability does noticeably better against most of the other top threat characters, and probably the main dumb matchups Luigi does noticeably worse in are like Little Mac and Pac-Man where you basically are absolutely forced to approach from the air, which Luigi does suck noticeably at.
I've tried getting autoreticle after footstool a few weeks ago. I haven't been able to do it. .. you probably need platforms. Also probably not very practical.
What is the best option if diddy kong dashes towards you with no banana? Should I roll away? Jump? Spot dodge? With no prior conditioning, what should I do?
What is the best option if diddy kong dashes towards you with no banana? Should I roll away? Jump? Spot dodge? With no prior conditioning, what should I do?
Mario isn't better than Luigi on default settings unless Luigi gets a major nerf to either fireballs, F-air, or D-throw. Both of them lose to Rosalina but Luigi with his top boxing and KO confirm ability does noticeably better against most of the other top threat characters, and probably the main dumb matchups Luigi does noticeably worse in are like Little Mac and Pac-Man where you basically are absolutely forced to approach from the air, which Luigi does suck noticeably at.
Yeah I know that you're really not that high on Mario. It was strange to here someone who thinks Mario is better. Boss of course didn't explain his reasoning, I know that there's a couple of mario bros players around here and was looking for insight. I think I'm going to give mario a legit try as a 2nd (really haven't tried too much with him). Who is the best Mario player currently?
Yeah I know that you're really not that high on Mario. It was strange to here someone who thinks Mario is better. Boss of course didn't explain his reasoning, I know that there's a couple of mario bros players around here and was looking for insight. I think I'm going to give mario a legit try as a 2nd (really haven't tried too much with him). Who is the best Mario player currently?
Most of Mario's noticeably bad matchups are sorta non-meta. Really, the things he loses to are good spacing and gimps/juggle KOs. So thus probably some of his hardest matchups are actually vs the Pits, who are not widely considered top tier, but they have strong midrange, and good offstage options (and a F-throw KO option, which is not talked about enough competitively). Most of the sword/disjoint characters aside from Toon Link and Shulk do noticeably well against him.
Rosalina obviously especially with Luma has both good spacing and gimp options/juggle KOs. Some claim it's decent for Mario given he can instakill Luma with B-throw, but at the same time Mario also has trouble easily killing Rosalina due to her air mobility making it hard to chase her. Plus her U-smash is also really gross.
I would argue the best Mario is either Botastic or Ally, from what I've seen.
Most of Mario's noticeably bad matchups are sorta non-meta. Really, the things he loses to are good spacing and gimps/juggle KOs. So thus probably some of his hardest matchups are actually vs the Pits, who are not widely considered top tier, but they have strong midrange, and good offstage options (and a F-throw KO option, which is not talked about enough competitively). Most of the sword/disjoint characters aside from Toon Link and Shulk do noticeably well against him.
Rosalina obviously especially with Luma has both good spacing and gimp options/juggle KOs. Some claim it's decent for Mario given he can instakill Luma with B-throw, but at the same time Mario also has trouble easily killing Rosalina due to her air mobility making it hard to chase her. Plus her U-smash is also really gross.
I would argue the best Mario is either Botastic or Ally, from what I've seen.
Xzax Kasrani is all one whole tag, and he mains Diddy (he only seems to pull out Mario vs Zero). Tearbear hasn't played Mario in months (he mains Falcon). The thread unfortunately is terrible at keeping track of notable players that aren't at majors or in the Northeast.
Rosalina has Mega Man's ability to change directions, and she's also floaty while not being slow in the air like Luigi. Go check Toomai's posts if you don't believe me. That part of Rosalina's air mobilty + disjointed D-air make it really hard to chase her with U-smash.
Xzax Kasrani is all one whole tag, and he mains Diddy (he only seems to pull out Mario vs Zero). Tearbear hasn't played Mario in months (he mains Falcon). The thread unfortunately is terrible at keeping track of notable players that aren't at majors or in the Northeast.
Texas and Socal are pretty well represented. The list isn't great at tracking players who's scenes don't upload tournament results (or actually post results for me to add).
I felt like that set was a much better example of Earth being an amazing Pit player...I was not impressed at all by Nariyasu. Even factoring that the Pit matchup is hard for Mario...I really just didn't think Nariyasu made very good decisions in either of the matches that set.
Though he has the most useless side special (outside recovery) in the game. 3% damage, almost no knockback, predictable and punishable, that's bad. However, it's a good recovery method and possible method to save yourself from a KO (if timed).
Though I will say that he can heavily skid whenever he turns from a dash; you can cancel that out with a jump, and this can lead into some cool results. I always use this to gain space, similar to Wavedashing, but with far more space.
Side-B has little lag if used immediately after a short hop and is a combo starter if spaced properly. At low percents you can SH side-B into U-tilt which can then lead into more U-tilts or Jab cancels -> stuff. At high percents (kill percents) you can follow up with an U-Air for the stock.
Also tipper D-tilt -> U-air at kill percents seems legit on most of the cast.
and probably the main dumb matchups Luigi does noticeably worse in are like Little Mac and Pac-Man where you basically are absolutely forced to approach from the air
I'm not sure if that's where he wants to approach however. With short ranged aerials and poor aerial mobility, I think for approaching, Luigi prefers the land.
In Little Mac's case, F-tilt and D-smash are preeety stupidly hard for Luigi to punish on the ground, so obviously he needs aerials in neutral. However whiffing is not something you want to do against someone with as much mobility as Mac, especially when you're a floaty character.
And as @Nu~
stated, the Trampoline and Hydrant literally just force you to jump in order to even get close to Pac-Man.
Luigi likes playing footises with aerials, and I mean sure, his aerials are amazingly good. He absolutely hates being forced to actually approach from the air given his air mobility is so easily countered.
Personally, I use SH double chop -> Jab to approach (Not closing distance). And if my fingers want to cooperate, Jab -> D-tilt -> Jab -> D-tilt is a pretty good combo.
Yeah, trying to get off the habit of Fireball -> Dash grab. There's many more potential in Luigi than just Down throw double F-air.
Who can reliably and consistently bust through Pac-Man's supply of Namco products?
Robin's the only one who can play the "Nope." Card and just blast everything with Thoron if Pac wants to pitch a tent, but is there anyone who can muscle through it with mobility alone?
Who can reliably and consistently bust through Pac-Man's supply of Namco products?
Robin's the only one who can play the "Nope." Card and just blast everything with Thoron if Pac wants to pitch a tent, but is there anyone who can muscle through it with mobility alone?
When you said "muscle", it occurred to me Ganon kills the hydrant instantly with EVERYTHING (except like...Jab and grounded Wizkick). That alone prevents the matchup from being really awful for him.
Who can reliably and consistently bust through Pac-Man's supply of Namco products?
Robin's the only one who can play the "Nope." Card and just blast everything with Thoron if Pac wants to pitch a tent, but is there anyone who can muscle through it with mobility alone?
Sonic...can run through hydrant for whatever reason and outmaneuvers us pretty well.
I don't believe that anyone else can get through as effectively as he can.
Pac-Man shouldn't pitch a tent anyway. With his CQC options, he's better off mixing his offense and defense
Considering pac-man has a wider variety of projectiles than megaman, I doubt there is one clear answer to all of it, aside from getting really really close to him (but don't get naired).
Considering pac-man has a wider variety of projectiles than megaman, I doubt there is one clear answer to all of it, aside from getting really really close to him (but don't get naired).
Who can reliably and consistently bust through Pac-Man's supply of Namco products?
Robin's the only one who can play the "Nope." Card and just blast everything with Thoron if Pac wants to pitch a tent, but is there anyone who can muscle through it with mobility alone?
Rosalina can "lolnope" fruit and hydrants with Gravitational Pull. If Pac Man is feeling cheeky he can throw a power pellet at her while it's still in effect to heal...I don't actually know how much but I think it's like 2%? (But honestly if that's the worst he can do to punish it then I call that a win. That said I'm sure there's something worse he can do.) Luma Warp is a good long range "hi something's in your face" button.
Also GPull works on stationary hydrants unless that got changed in 1.0.6.
Rosalina can "lolnope" fruit and hydrants with Gravitational Pull. If Pac Man is feeling cheeky he can throw a power pellet at her while it's still in effect to heal...I don't actually know how much but I think it's like 2%? (But honestly if that's the worst he can do to punish it then I call that a win. That said I'm sure there's something worse he can do.) Luma Warp is a good long range "hi something's in your face" button.
Also GPull works on stationary hydrants unless that got changed in 1.0.6.
Gonna slap this here too because it's my duty to be an annoying, angry bird. Huh, that description fits Daffy and Falco. No wonder I main Falco and love Daffy.
So, I compiled Falco's end lag data and it's actually similar to his Melee and Brawl end lag data. No IASA yet, but Falco technically hasn't been nerfed in any major way, but Blaster, his main way of forcing approaches and keeping himself safe at a distance.
Normals
Move|Hit Frames|Total Frames
Jab 1|2-4|22
Jab 2|10-12|32
Rapid Jab Finisher|5-6|39
Dash Attack|8-17|39
Utilt|5-16|36
Ftilt|6-8|27
Dtilt|7-9|27
Up Smash|8-19|49
Side Smash|17-20|48
Down Smash|7-9|46
Grab|8-9|31
Dash Grab|10-11|39
Pivot Grab|11-12|37
Aerials
Move|Hit Frames|Total Frames|Landing Lag
Nair|3-23|48|15
Uair|10-14|37|15
Fair|12-36|58|32
Bair|4-11|37|15
Dair|16-31|51|26
Here's the thing, from the Japanese frame data, Fox's Blaster startup is the same as Falco's, 11 on the ground and 9 in the air. Personally, Fox could have had a quicker draw since his Blaster is more for tacking on damage than anything, but whatever. Fox's Blaster shoots consecutively faster, does not stun, etc. His end lag data on the ground is 42 and in the air, it's 40. Thanks to Zelkam, Fox's ground IASA for his Blaster is 33. Luigi's Fireball startup is 17 and the end lag is 40 while Mario's Fireball and Dr. Mario's Pill have the same startup, but 52 frames of end lag. In Brawl, Wolf's Blaster, I believe, has 11 frames of startup and its IASA was 45 and with his air speed, he could weave in and out with Blaster and his Blaster wasn't as spammy (but his Bair was ) as Brawl Falco's. Let's head back to Falco in Smash 4. Falco's Blaster end lag on the ground is 58 and in the air, it's 49. It does 3%, travels about the length of FD, but it takes a second for him to put away his Blaster on the ground and almost a second for him to put away his Blaster when shot in the air. Falco's Blaster startup is faster than Luigi's, but the end lag is atrocious and Luigi can sort of weave in and out with Fireballs to cover his approach and (Dr.) Mario has good air speed to compensate for the end lag. Falco doesn't have good air speed like Wolf or (Dr.) Mario and having the most end lag kills and he does less damage than them with his Blaster.
Auto-canceling made Falco's Blaster good in Melee, maybe too good. In Brawl, auto-canceling, an increased rate of fire that allowed him to short hop double laser, and the lasers fast travel speed made it broken. Without auto-canceling, Falco doesn't have a good projectile, especially with that kind of end lag. It already has a slow rate of fire which in my opinion, could have stayed the same pre-patch 1.0.4 as the problem wasn't how fast it was firing, but the end lag. Reduce the laser's travel distance to Brawl Fox's or about half of FD and even reduce the rate of fire and increase the start-up slightly, but reduce the end lag to about 45-50 frames for the grounded Blaster and 37-40 frames for the aerial Blaster and Falco already has a better projectile without being broken. He doesn't need that massive distance, rate of fire, or even quick draw; what Falco needs is a safe way of protecting himself from afar and a safe way of forcing approaches.
Edit: @PEPESPAIN is playing on stream here, he's the dude who's been making Pac-Man vids. I'm beginning to think Spain only has FD and Omega's legal, though...
Edit 2: I was wrong about stages, but could a pac-main explain counterpicking FD as Pacman against Sonic?
I'd take him to Battlefield if I were the Pac-Man. The platforms don't really help Sonic against Pac's stuff in my experience. Maybe there's some Pac-Man **** I don't know.
definitely has better matchups here and there maybe even more in terms of quantity, but
(or actually post results for me to add).
