Character Competitive Impressions

[NachoOfCheese]

Jab -> jab -> usmash isn't guaranteed for Fox on Diddy Kong but the matchup is still kinda even now that Diddy can't kill Fox at fraudulent % anymore. Sheik also has never been the main problem for Fox - Sonic and Yoshi were the ones that would truly beat Fox. With Sonic's back throw being nerfed hard that matchup could be even too now.

4/6: Yoshi
45/55: Sheik, Pikachu, Luigi
5/5: Sonic, Wario, Olimar, Diddy + a bunch of other characters

Mii Brawler has the potential to be a bad matchup for Fox too but I don't have enough exp in that one. Fox is pretty OP.

I'm seeing fox's double jab combo a lot more now. It's becoming a legit problem.
But yeah, I agree that the Yoshi matchup is pretty hard for Fox. I've always had trouble with it. But damn for such a solid character we sure don't see a lot of Yoshi...

 

[Radical Larry]

Fox is good for racking up damage, and his KO ability is poor outside U-Smash and smashes near the ledge. His B-Air might be a good option, but if it's blocked, it leads Fox open to punishes. U-Air isn't a good tool, as most characters can D-Air/D-Spec Fox after using good DI. I think the damage-orientation on his character is a flaw.

Oh, that and his falling speed makes him susceptible to juggling and combos quite easily, possibly leading into early stocks against him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Honestly I think Marth is hella good now. Imo he's barely missing top 15, (and most certainly not top 10) but his edgeguard game is actually quite amazing against a lot of the cast and Dancing Blade properly comboing makes things like kill-confirms a real thing and actually makes me comfortable with Dolphin Slash over Crescent Slash. Also jab is a really good tool in neutral ESPECIALLY with perfect pivots and f-tilt as well.

Marth doesn't do terrible against Sheik either, since whenever Sheik gets too close and even gets to grab range just bop Sheik with Dolphin Slash. That existed earlier, but with Marth having a much better neutral game in general it becomes a lot more noticeable that a high level Sheik Sheik doesn't have a MASSIVE advantage against Marth by just waiting and just getting that one f-air with little risk, but now Sheik actually has to think a bit more carefully against Marth. Marth vs Fox was never a bad match-up for Marth tbh and obviously Marth does a bit better vs Diddy but everyone does.

uhhhh, no. Marth is not "hella good". He is straight mid tier. Probably top of mid tier with CS as grab release vs good chars gives him true kill combos at the ledge.

You cannot be top 15 and have the majority of your match-ups be even and lose to top tiers. That's not how tiers work. That's not how competitive metagame works.

Ever. In any fighting game.

Who does the Emperor of Altea beat that is relevant in this game? He arguably goes even with Rosaluma, Mario, Fox, Luigi, Pikachu and Yoshi. He does not beat them. He loses to Sheik, ZSS, Diddy and Sonic.

That does not translate to hella good. Doesn't translate to terrible either. Marth ends up like so many other mid tiers. Decent, but why play him?

 

[Quickhero]

uhhhh, no. Marth is not "hella good". He is straight mid tier. Probably top of mid tier with CS as grab release vs good chars gives him true kill combos at the ledge.

You cannot be top 15 and have the majority of your match-ups be even and lose to top tiers. That's not how tiers work. That's not how competitive metagame works.

Ever. In any fighting game.

Who does the Emperor of Altea beat that is relevant in this game? He arguably goes even with Rosaluma, Mario, Fox, Luigi, Pikachu and Yoshi. He does not beat them. He loses to Sheik, ZSS, Diddy and Sonic.
That does not translate to hella good. Doesn't translate to terrible either. Marth ends up like so many other mid tiers. Decent, but why play him?

You're right, hella good is incorrect. I type more emotionally late at night so I apologize for that.

What I meant was, he's a lot better now with the buffs and he feels like a character that, while still struggling against Sheik/ZSS/Diddy/Sonic, he has reasonable means of beating them and is reasonable to solo now. I think he has it quite well now, especially as more tech like the d-air ledge trump gets discovered and allows Marth to improve as a character.

He has the means to do well in this metagame, so while he's not top 15, (I said barely missed it, but ye I understand what you were saying ) he still does quite well in this metagame and the patch did well to buff his weaknesses. Besides, high mid tier is around 20 anyways. So I don't think saying near or in top 20 is unreasonable.

 

[Blobface]

About Kong Cyclone: people I feel drastically underestimate the endlag of it because the endlag is shared between the air and the ground. It has 26 frames of end lag after the last hitbox (for reference, the landing lag of Ganon's fair is 23 frames). The armor ends even earlier.

Secondly, when DK auto cancels on a platform, he puts himself in a terrible position. How is he supposed to get down? Even if you can't hard punish, you can pressure the position he puts himself in.

Finally, the two most prominent DK players have been doing better with customs than without, but they haven't abruptly shot up the ranks or anything. I would say they're only doing about as well as they would if DK was a better character. Even then, DK has access to plenty of other excellent custom options.

Now with all that said, Kong Cyclone is a pain to fight. There are some situations, based on where you're positioned on a stage, where you simply cannot punish it. But there's little actual evidence to actually support the idea that it's "broken".

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Fox is good for racking up damage, and his KO ability is poor outside U-Smash and smashes near the ledge. His B-Air might be a good option, but if it's blocked, it leads Fox open to punishes. U-Air isn't a good tool, as most characters can D-Air/D-Spec Fox after using good DI. I think the damage-orientation on his character is a flaw.

Oh, that and his falling speed makes him susceptible to juggling and combos quite easily, possibly leading into early stocks against him.

True, except Bair autocancels throughout the whole animation. It's one of Fox's only moves that's hard to punish when spaced and timed well. It's fairly safe on block.
Also, Fox has reliable setups into up air in his 4 frame dash attack and 3 frame up tilt. But you're right about everything else, Fox can be juggled easily if the foe has disjoints, and his weight and fall speed can screw him over. But that never stopped him in Melee XD (that was a joke, I know Melee is very different).

 

[GeneralLedge]

Bottom line: I fear that in EVO people may lose to DKs using this move who are actually not nearly as good as their opponents. Thoughts?

To be frank, if you lose/can't adapt to a single move you probably don't deserve to win EVO, anyway. If you were really good/better than your opponent you'd (usually?) win. If your opponent knows that spamming a move will beat you, then regardless of the 'spamming', they still beat you.

I've had so many people on anthers give me poor scores because I won using the same move over and over. Because it worked, damn it. And christ sakes Diddy did this for six months anyway, let someone else have a turn.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've been meaning to bring this out but the other day I was watching xanadau and on stream boss said Mario was better than Luigi. Does anyone else thing this way?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I'm seeing fox's double jab combo a lot more now. It's becoming a legit problem.
But yeah, I agree that the Yoshi matchup is pretty hard for Fox. I've always had trouble with it. But damn for such a solid character we sure don't see a lot of Yoshi...

I think the Yoshi/Fox matchup is about even, maybe 55/45 in Yoshi's favor. Yoshi might appear a little more often now that Sheik and Diddy got slightly toned down. Unfortunately, Sheiks are still absolutely everywhere and they destroy Yoshi, so it's not a very approachable competitive scene for everyone's favorite dinosaur.

I don't think there's even a single MU in the top tier where Yoshi actually has a completely advantageous MU. I think it's about even with Rosalina, Villager, Mario, Luigi, Mega Man, Pikachu and Diddy and a total loss against Sheik and Sonic.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Which Mario covers Zelda?

Honestly that matchup is annoying for both of them. She can gimp their recoveries fairly easily with D-air and F-smash is good for keeping both of them out. Mario lands slightly easier, but Doc has Jab2 -> Up-B on her. You can probably pick either, I think it's about even either way.

 

[Radical Larry]

True, except Bair autocancels throughout the whole animation. It's one of Fox's only moves that's hard to punish when spaced and timed well. It's fairly safe on block.
Also, Fox has reliable setups into up air in his 4 frame dash attack and 3 frame up tilt. But you're right about everything else, Fox can be juggled easily if the foe has disjoints, and his weight and fall speed can screw him over. But that never stopped him in Melee XD (that was a joke, I know Melee is very different).

True.

Though he has the most useless side special (outside recovery) in the game. 3% damage, almost no knockback, predictable and punishable, that's bad. However, it's a good recovery method and possible method to save yourself from a KO (if timed).

Though I will say that he can heavily skid whenever he turns from a dash; you can cancel that out with a jump, and this can lead into some cool results. I always use this to gain space, similar to Wavedashing, but with far more space.

 

[Goesasu]

Hopefully

I still feel that Robin still suffers mightily against rushdown, and his worst matchups haven't really worsened all that much. A more reliable kill jab is great, and that new tomb technology is cool, but Sheik and friends still serve his/her *** on a silver platter.

I hope i'm wrong though,I really wanna see the tactician's metagame advance

fire wall and speed thunder works wonders against rushdown. Gliding elwind also cover one of his major weakness, predictability and the slowness of his recovery.

This customs are his kit to fight against the meta.

@Noble fire wall covers the blind spot in front of robin.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin has complete horizontal control during Elwind, so he can bob and weave where he needs to to avoid interceptions. And combined with his double jump, floatiness, and decent air speed, he can hang out offstage for longer than people would expect, and so can avoid brazen edgeguarding attempts.

Gliding Elwind can see use against those who can trace Robin the entire time he's offstage like Jigglypuff, where the sudden horizontal shift can get him past the wall of aerials at a moment's notice, but he's more likely to run Elwind than not in the grand scheme.

Fire Wall is a very decent sidegrade though, not just for ground rushers but also aerial juggernauts like Wario as well, and Speed Thunder is virtually a strict upgrade in a majority of matchups.




It just doesn't really matter when Sheik's Needles are transcendent for no rational reason.

 

[wedl!!]

@ Scarlet Jile yoshi doesn't really win matchups as much as he does just be an annoying piece of ****. this is probably because of his poor neutral; once he's in he's really good, but getting there is a problem. other characters () are just a lot safer in neutral, which means a ton in a neutral-centric game.

@ Mr. Johan speed thunder is mad good and makes up for a chunk of reflet's problems. having a really fast projectile on a rather lethargic character otherwise is actually so much of an improvement that trading off the damage doesn't actually matter that much in the long run.

(gotta go fast.)

 

[Mr. Johan]

Of course, Speed Thunder is definitely worth the tradeoff in many cases.

That said, I will always be bemused by the objective truth that the Thunder in Speed Thunder and Vanilla Thunder are, indeed, worse than Falco lasers. =P

 

[Hippieslayer]

Bottom line: I fear that in EVO people may lose to DKs using this move who are actually not nearly as good as their opponents. Thoughts?

I know that in EVO people will lose to players who are not nearly as good as their opponents because they are using weaker characters than their opponents. Bans anyone? Nah only with customs.

 

[Luco]

Ness I believe beats Marth out (if only a little now), goes even with Fox and even-ish with Yoshi, maybe slightly Yoshi's favour, for what it's worth.

... Y'know, cause, you left him out on your lists!

...

... It's okay I'll show myself out.

Spoiler

But legit, do people not consider him top tier anymore? Is he just unpopular?

 

[GeneralLedge]

I think people just forget Ness exists.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Bottom line: I fear that in EVO people may lose to DKs using this move who are actually not nearly as good as their opponents. Thoughts?

Logistically this will more than likely effect mid to low level players the most, the best top players can probably beat the cylone. The issue there is those mid-low level players are the people who keep our tournaments buzzing, prize pools high, and in the end really are a huge factor in our scene staying alive and growing. So if this ends up being a HUGE detriment to those players and turns them off competitively there's going to be a problem.

The tournaments on reddit right now have that problem, I see tons of folks complaining about the cyclone constantly and how there is one player who enters and ONLY uses it to try to win. He's came out in first place several times now and now a community that normally wanted customs on has many people asking to ban it or to have them host customs off tournaments. (Though to be fair this is /r/smashbros we're talking about, so take it for what you will.)

 

[Shaya]

Ness is one of those characters most players don't want to see commonly. Rage + Back Throw is probably the scariest thing in the game now Diddy Up Throw Up Air at 70% isn't killing.
Will someone please think of the children? Keep Ness in school so he can become a lawyer or doctor; not a fighter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Vg4uyYwEk

Anyway talking about Kong Cyclone, kinda... A friend of mine is working on his DK with customs off now (our region is possibly transitioning towards customs off in the near future, we've given it a good shot [since the game came out] but our players on average aren't maintaining support) and I really can't help but think people underrate his default... I got done for 20-30% damage on so many occasions (coming in from below recovering [kinda like how Luigi/Doc use their tornados] or as an anti-edge guard), quite a gem. Meanwhile Kong Cyclone probably wouldn't be giving him more "literally" but slows down the pace of the game and tends to be nearly all the DK is focusing on (in terms of controlling stage position/etc).

 

[mimgrim]

I've toyed around with Ness on and off as consideration for a secondary, he's definitely one of those characters that I seem to enjoy play as and think he feels really good to play as. But I don't really know if he, or any of the other characters I've been toying around with on and off, covers Greninja good.

I really wouldn't be surprised if Ness was top 10 in Custom Off, I think he would have to at least be top 15 though, and could seem dropping a little bit in Custom On but could easily see him remaining top 15 due to his strong default tools.

 

[Ampetrix]

Have we seen ZSS talk in the last 10 pages? I feel she's forgotten more than Ness. (Yoshi keeps getting acknowledged ,"Yeah he's good." then... forgotten.) Not that I'm complaining of course.

Edot: Felt my post a bit lacking so here it is.

ZSS is definitely a threat to both of my mains(Link/Samus). She ha good grab setups, fast, good aerials, basically a good top-tier rushdown character. I would just like to know her state in comparison with other top-tier characters.

 

[Firefoxx]

I've been meaning to bring this out but the other day I was watching xanadau and on stream boss said Mario was better than Luigi. Does anyone else thing this way?

This is probably just a Luigi main looking at Mario's mobility and being jealous/sighing wistfully. Though the idea that Mario is top/high tier is a lot more prevalent among top-ish players than I was expecting

I think people just forget Ness exists.

There are so many characters in this game that this was always gonna happen. Some characters get forgotten and some characters get reduced to just their most basic 'gimmicks' (Kong Cyclone, Aura, B-Throw, even the almighty Diddy was/is just Hoo-Hah to many people)

 

[LiteralGrill]

Also while I get this is a combo video meant to look extra fancy, who is saying Little Mac isn't good in the air?

Look how he's using them to extend combos, make smart edgeguards, and all of those awesome locks on missed tech. Mac has some issues recovering and in the air, but I think his air game really hasn't been explored anywhere near its proper levels.

 

[HeroMystic]

I've been meaning to bring this out but the other day I was watching xanadau and on stream boss said Mario was better than Luigi. Does anyone else thing this way?

Socal believes Mario is Top 5. Whether the belief Mario is better than Luigi though is up in the air, but MU-wise the high/top players firmly believe Mario has a better MU spread due to Mario's neutral game being better than Luigi's.

This is probably just a Luigi main looking at Mario's mobility and being jealous/sighing wistfully. Though the idea that Mario is top/high tier is a lot more prevalent among top-ish players than I was expecting.

As a Mario main I'm jealous of Luigi's damage and plethora of kill setups. It's just in this game (or rather Smash in general), mobility has the much greater potential. That said, Luigi's advantaged state is pretty intense and that can't be forgotten.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Also while I get this is a combo video meant to look extra fancy, who is saying Little Mac isn't good in the air?

Look how he's using them to extend combos, make smart edgeguards, and all of those awesome locks on missed tech. Mac has some issues recovering and in the air, but I think his air game really hasn't been explored anywhere near its proper levels.

All that can be said: RIP Yoshi. (Sweet zombie Jesus.)

 

[Unknownkid]

Honestly that matchup is annoying for both of them. She can gimp their recoveries fairly easily with D-air and F-smash is good for keeping both of them out. Mario lands slightly easier, but Doc has Jab2 -> Up-B on her. You can probably pick either, I think it's about even either way.

I am pretty sure Mario has the advantage here. Zelda has to approach Mario. Fireballs will make Zelda shield or use Nayru's Love (which is punishable). Mario's Ground and Air speed allow him to weaving in and out of Zelda. Fully Charged FLUDD completely kills Zelda if she uses Din's Fire. Unless someone want to correct me...

 

[Djent]

So I take it nothing came of Larry vs. Zero?

Also would like to know why @ ~ Gheb ~ thinks Pika beats Fox.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I am pretty sure Mario has the advantage here. Zelda has to approach Mario. Fireballs will make Zelda shield or use Nayru's Love (which is punishable). Mario's Ground and Air speed allow him to weaving in and out of Zelda. Fully Charged FLUDD completely kills Zelda if she uses Din's Fire. Unless someone want to correct me...

Zelda doesn't even use Dins outside of edgeguard situations anyway, and Mario has to be pretty close to be in range to punish a reflected fireball which he still has to respond to most of the time especially if she reflects it with the late part of her animation. Mario doesn't have good ground pokes, so he still has to get past better ground normals, and while Zelda has poor OOS options meaning Mario can safely pressure her shield in neutral, lightning kicks and F-smash can't be completely ignored when approaching from the air. Zelda also has decent physics that get her out of most of Mario's low% D-throw U-tilt strings pretty easily on top of Up-B giving her landing options to avoid Mario's U-smash. Mario has no easy way to set up any of his other Smashes against Zelda, so he struggles a lot to easily end her stock outside of predicting her ledge getup.

Doc gets walled and juggled a little more easily, but he has a KO confirm on Zelda out of Jab2 and his low% D-throw U-air strings are more valuable against light floaty characters, so it's a defensive tradeoff for both characters. Both Mario and Doc however can be gimped by Zelda's D-air offstage.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I think I found a new tech...
A few minutes ago, I was playing For Glory on Wii U (I finally can play online at Wii U! Almost lagless) as Toon Link against a Pikachu. I was quite up in the air, used the Boomerang... And the momentum was changed to the right. It wasn't a "forward jump", he literally moved to the other side. This movement kind reminds me of Melee's air dodge. I posted here and not in the Toon Link forums because: The same could apply to other characters; I don't know if it is new or old, but gold. If it's new, I promisse to post it later, even if it has "Potato-Bread Quality", since I have no capture card.

 

[mimgrim]

I think I found a new tech...
A few minutes ago, I was playing For Glory on Wii U (I finally can play online at Wii U! Almost lagless) as Toon Link against a Pikachu. I was quite up in the air, used the Boomerang... And the momentum was changed to the right. It wasn't a "forward jump", he literally moved to the other side. This movement kind reminds me of Melee's air dodge. I posted here and not in the Toon Link forums because: The same could apply to other characters; I don't know if it is new or old, but gold. If it's new, I promisse to post it later, even if it has "Potato-Bread Quality", since I have no capture card.

You probs just did a B-revese or Wavebounce or something along that line.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.368536/

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

You probs just did a B-revese or Wavebounce or something along that line.

http://smashboards.com/threads/turnaround-bs-b-reverses-and-wavebounces-know-the-difference.368536/

Oh, I did a Wavebounce! Thanks, and sorry everyone.

 

[Luigi player]

Will someone please think of the children? Keep Ness in school so he can become a lawyer or doctor; not a fighter.

: "why not both?"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario isn't better than Luigi. It's actually pretty hard for Mario to get kills against opponents that know how to deal with Usmash. Kind of a big deal.

Also would like to know why @ ~ Gheb ~ thinks Pika beats Fox.

He just does.

 

[PUK]

Actually there is enough character with a really good or simply positive MU against fox to keep him away from the top 3.

 

[Djent]

So apparently can Jab -> Footstool -> Auto-Reticle (restand) -> Smash. So much for "can't kill without customs," lol.

He just does.

I've...never thought of it that way before.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've...never thought of it that way before.

I know, right? Sometimes things really are that simple!

 

[deepseadiva]

I've been meaning to bring this out but the other day I was watching xanadau and on stream boss said Mario was better than Luigi. Does anyone else thing this way?

Nahhhh. I'd say definitely has better matchups here and there maybe even more in terms of quantity, but has the quality matchups on lock. Also Luigi has that death nair which is IMO super critical.

I'm glad people are speaking of them very highly now. I remember when all of yall were calling him worst in game. What a journey.

So apparently can Jab -> Footstool -> Auto-Reticle (restand) -> Smash. So much for "can't kill without customs," lol.

Imma need to see a video or something lol

 

[David Viran]

Have we seen ZSS talk in the last 10 pages? I feel she's forgotten more than Ness. (Yoshi keeps getting acknowledged ,"Yeah he's good." then... forgotten.) Not that I'm complaining of course.

Edot: Felt my post a bit lacking so here it is.

ZSS is definitely a threat to both of my mains(Link/Samus). She ha good grab setups, fast, good aerials, basically a good top-tier rushdown character. I would just like to know her state in comparison with other top-tier characters.

She is talked about. I think the general consensus is top 10 maybe top 5.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Ness is one of those characters most players don't want to see commonly. Rage + Back Throw is probably the scariest thing in the game now Diddy Up Throw Up Air at 70% isn't killing.
Will someone please think of the children? Keep Ness in school so he can become a lawyer or doctor; not a fighter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Vg4uyYwEk

Anyway talking about Kong Cyclone, kinda... A friend of mine is working on his DK with customs off now (our region is possibly transitioning towards customs off in the near future, we've given it a good shot [since the game came out] but our players on average aren't maintaining support) and I really can't help but think people underrate his default... I got done for 20-30% damage on so many occasions (coming in from below recovering [kinda like how Luigi/Doc use their tornados] or as an anti-edge guard), quite a gem. Meanwhile Kong Cyclone probably wouldn't be giving him more "literally" but slows down the pace of the game and tends to be nearly all the DK is focusing on (in terms of controlling stage position/etc).

Honestly, I would use Spinning Kong more if it didn't have the 30 frames of landing lag for a soft landing. I like it more for racking damage (if only the aerial and land version did the same). In fact, when customs are on, I still go default because I see many new players abuse the move to an oblivion simply for defense.