Character Competitive Impressions

[Quickhero]

I had people on the Twitch chat DENY that there are custom moves that are direct upgrades as if it's some argument that Sakurai actually had an elaborate plan with custom moves or something.

Look, I'm personally indifferent to customs; but DON'T SAY that there aren't moves that are just direct buffs compared to default, because I could name a few on the top of my head. Kong Cyclone, Wind/Gust Cape, Gravity Grenade, Twisting Fox, Upper Cutter, Luma Warp, Power Vision, Furious Eruption, and you can debate for Iai Counter. Those are all the ones just on the top of my head. Tell me what do you lose on the character that matters at all, and what do you gain in return? Not saying this makes custom moves unhealthy or even that most/any of these moves are broken, but let's make sure you guys understand that there are a lot of options which have no remotely important consequences for being picked.

 

[Mario766]

Furious eruption actually has down sides. It doesn't kill as earlier, does more self harm and has more recovery. Close combat is pretty much an upgrade though.

 

[webbedspace]

I believe the argument was misinterpreted - there are no custom moves that are intended as direct upgrades, insofar as each of them has a trade-off presented in its description. Often the trade-off is quite negligible, especially in a 1v1 environment which has different constraints to 4P-FFA, 8P-FFA, etc, but this doesn't mean that they are intended to be strict improvements to the default without qualification.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

While you shouldn't be spamming vision enough for this to matter anyways, Power Vision's active window per attempt decreases much more quickly than normal. As for your main point, a lot of the downsides that aren't actually downsides could be more problematic in say, a free for all setting, as webbedspace mentioned. I'd probably be more inclined to use Final or Wave Cutter in a free for all, myself.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I had people on the Twitch chat DENY that there are custom moves that are direct upgrades as if it's some argument that Sakurai actually had an elaborate plan with custom moves or something.

Look, I'm personally indifferent to customs; but DON'T SAY that there aren't moves that are just direct buffs compared to default, because I could name a few on the top of my head. Kong Cyclone, Wind/Gust Cape, Gravity Grenade, Twisting Fox, Upper Cutter, Luma Warp, Power Vision, Furious Eruption, and you can debate for Iai Counter. Those are all the ones just on the top of my head. Tell me what do you lose on the character that matters at all, and what do you gain in return? Not saying this makes custom moves unhealthy or even that most/any of these moves are broken, but let's make sure you guys understand that there are a lot of options which have no remotely important consequences for being picked.

Kong Cyclone: Worse recovery distance (maybe just vertical?), less damage I think
Gust Cape: Longer startup, less damage
Gravity Grenade: Smaller range, no vortex before detonation
Twisting Fox: Longer startup, slower movement
Upper Cutter: No downward hit, no shockwave
Luma Warp: Can't charge to change distance, only 1% damage and can't kill
Power Vision: Active frames diminish rapidly with repeated use
Furious Eruption: More self damage
Iai Counter: Different trajectory on counter hit, shorter active frames

You vaguely alluded to this, but all of these moves do have some sort of downside, if only on paper. None are a strict upgrade in the sense that every measurable statistic is equal or better. Now, a lot of them are very much worth it and the downsides may not matter in the average match (Power Vision, for instance, since you shouldn't be spamming counter moves anyway), but to call them strict upgrades implies a specific meaning to some people (like me, since I tend to be mildly pedantic about this sort of thing) that isn't true.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's Meteor Bombs.
That is all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik vs Link is pretty darn close. Even imo. Link actually wins neutral imo.

Dafuq EL?

Even factoring blocking Needles by walking, how does Link even pressure Sheik?

 

[Teshie U]

Power vision is actually significantly less useful in matchups where projectiles and windboxes can set it off safely.

My biggest problem with customs is that increased mobility in smash can easily lead to very passive play.

People complain alot about villager sitting in place with hitboxes everywhere, but its far less interesting to see Palutena, Sonic, Mii Brawler, Wario and even Shulk draw circles all over the stage with their movements.

But thats the nature of customs. Its very likely they will buff the things you like AND the things you hate.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Power vision is actually significantly less useful in matchups where projectiles and windboxes can set it off safely.

My biggest problem with customs is that increased mobility in smash can easily lead to very passive play.

People complain alot about villager sitting in place with hitboxes everywhere, but its far less interesting to see Palutena, Sonic, Mii Brawler, Wario and even Shulk draw circles all over the stage with their movements.

But thats the nature of customs. Its very likely they will buff the things you like AND the things you hate.

...windboxes trigger counterattacks? This is news to me.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'm almost positive they don't?

 

[Shaya]

Marth still has that brawl bug with counter jacket if he counters a windbox and it doesn't hit their opponent IIRC.

 

[Trifroze]

Oh, @ Trifroze - to be fair, G&W goes under a lot more than Falcon's grab - set to start at 20s in. In this, he avoids the grab, the DA, the Bair and the Nair as well as jab and a few other more minor things that Falcon can either affect or will use more rarely. I'm prepared to accept that a timed DA might hit G&W but I'd like to see confirmation in some way. I actually think crouching might be a neat little way to help G&W in a few select MUs.

Spacing though:

 

[TriTails]

Dafuq EL?

Even factoring blocking Needles by walking, how does Link even pressure Sheik?

This. Link's attacks and mobility are slow enough that Sheik is basically a Mach Tornado around the poor elf.

And Link is pretty laggy enough to be punished everytime he presses the wrong button.

 

[thehard]

Kong Cyclone: Worse recovery distance (maybe just vertical?), less damage I think
Gust Cape: Longer startup, less damage
Gravity Grenade: Smaller range, no vortex before detonation
Twisting Fox: Longer startup, slower movement
Upper Cutter: No downward hit, no shockwave
Luma Warp: Can't charge to change distance, only 1% damage and can't kill
Power Vision: Active frames diminish rapidly with repeated use
Furious Eruption: More self damage
Iai Counter: Different trajectory on counter hit, shorter active frames

You vaguely alluded to this, but all of these moves do have some sort of downside, if only on paper. None are a strict upgrade in the sense that every measurable statistic is equal or better. Now, a lot of them are very much worth it and the downsides may not matter in the average match (Power Vision, for instance, since you shouldn't be spamming counter moves anyway), but to call them strict upgrades implies a specific meaning to some people (like me, since I tend to be mildly pedantic about this sort of thing) that isn't true.

I know Dabuz recently said he won't take Luma Warp for all MUs.

 

[Cassio]

Having fought one of the best links as a speedy character I concur links neutral isn't that bad, but I'm only speaking from experience. His biggest issue is punish game disparity, but I dunno how well that all translates vs sheik.

 

[Anomilus]

Spacing though:

OIC, you mean most of the attacks that would require you to stand in place before attempting.

...Or the opponent could just shield/evade. As others said, the point isn't "LOL I duk undr all ur moovs". With a character like Falcon, he forces guesses from a considerable distance. You shield, you may get grabbed. You attack directly, you very well may lose out to his disjointed dash attack (or mistime the attack completely). And outright evasion isn't always helpful as he'll still be on you. For those with really low crouches though, they eliminate the grab issue, and that alone can be significantly helpful. Since you can shield/evade or even attack out of crouch, the defending player's in a better position to deal with Falcon's shenanigans.

GIMR's video is definitely hyperbole, but the tactic itself is still very useful.

 

[Trifroze]

OIC, you mean most of the attacks that would require you to stand in place before attempting.

...Or the opponent could just shield/evade. As others said, the point isn't "LOL I duk undr all ur moovs". With a character like Falcon, he forces guesses from a considerable distance. You shield, you may get grabbed. You attack directly, you very well may lose out to his disjointed dash attack (or mistime the attack completely). And outright evasion isn't always helpful as he'll still be on you. For those with really low crouches though, they eliminate the grab issue, and that alone can be significantly helpful. Since you can shield/evade or even attack out of crouch, the defending player's in a better position to deal with Falcon's shenanigans.

GIMR's video is definitely hyperbole, but the tactic itself is still very useful.

Even without (dash) grab those are still more numerous approach options as well as safer ones than what most characters have in neutral, and I doubt the likes of Kirby and G&W beat all of them. That's the point. It may be a useful tool in matchups versus characters with high grabs, but there's absolutely no reason how it'd automatically make the matchup in their favor like some here are claiming.

Also the fact that you have a particularly useful tool for avoiding grab doesn't mean it becomes useless, especially when dash attack still remains an option. Either you always get hit by dash attack and aerial approaches when anticipating grabs by crouching, or you're forced to shield and get dash grabbed or empty hop grabbed occasionally when anticipating said approaches that your crouch doesn't work against.

 

[Ikes]

Yeah mario and fox do the same thing y know?

he was at 80% and was still very far within his utilt

it looks like that could be done all the way to kill percents and maybe even chained into up smash

Been away for a week, had a lot to say about Ness, so here's a spoiler tag outlining some of my responses.

Once I'm not showing a friend something else (ie probably tomorrow) I will shift my focus back to the topic at hand. Just wanted to catch up haha.

Spoiler

You should visit the Ness boards sometime buddy, we've more or less come to this conclusion already. People missed it I guess, because up until this point we've been too excited(/depressed?) about customs to really care.



Oh I LOVE showing this off, I know it's old and I'm a nobody (especially now I'm not even in a scene atm lawlz) but on one especially awful match I was having, this happened - "WHERE'D I GO?"

To be honest I don't think it's that bad for us anymore, even though this happens occasionally. I think a well-timed Nair works against it, but if that fails, Ness actually doesn't suck when recovering against DK, so AD-ing the second hit if you can might not be a bad idea. I don't know, it's been too long since I've faced it.



Hmm, I'd be surprised if Ness wasn't able to Nair and trade with Kirby after a few Utilts. He can do this to Mario, Fox and friends, so unless Kirby has something special I'm not sure I see it. It shouldn't be Ness' projectile game we're talking about here (it seems to be the only thing people ever talk about when it comes to this character besides Bthrow and occasionally Dthrow/Fair), I see no reason why Ness will be losing air to air battles with Kirby. Kirby's mobility is on the poorer side; I'm not sure what's to stop us from harassing you for free. Ness kills Kirby at 82% from FD ledge, 115% at centre stage and 138% at the far ledge, which puts Kirby in a jeopardising situation in regards to survivability. You don't really have that much against us offstage either. If anything, I think this is possibly one of our best MUs.

Feel free to dispute this, I have no problem with that; I was just surprised because this isn't a MU I would expect to be that close to even.

Oh, @ Trifroze - to be fair, G&W goes under a lot more than Falcon's grab - set to start at 20s in. In this, he avoids the grab, the DA, the Bair and the Nair as well as jab and a few other more minor things that Falcon can either affect or will use more rarely. I'm prepared to accept that a timed DA might hit G&W but I'd like to see confirmation in some way. I actually think crouching might be a neat little way to help G&W in a few select MUs.

remind me again how G&W is low tier

becuase this **** seems ****ing absurd lmfao

jesus christ he can duck under a load of grabs and so many attacks it's ridiculous

 

[RonNewcomb]

Sheik vs Link is pretty darn close. Even imo. Link actually wins neutral imo.

Pardon?
I mean the part about the MU being close. Link has always won netural vs Sheik in every game. The problem is that the match is never in neutral.

Needles never bothered Link because he'll toss bombs and boomerangs right back. Hylian Shield defeating needles is about as useful as the boomerang knocking away Sheik's grenade. A competent Sheik wouldn't even...

Link's Meteor Bombs.
That is all.

I disagree because puffballs. By the time they have enough damage for MB to drop far enough to matter, you've already accidentally killed them off the top blast line with Uair. MBs are more of a danger to Link himself than the puffball.

 

[deepseadiva]

People complain alot about villager sitting in place with hitboxes everywhere, but its far less interesting to see Palutena, Sonic, Mii Brawler, Wario and even Shulk draw circles all over the stage with their movements.

I am all for this.

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion, but this was what I loved that Meta Knight brought into Brawl. Hyper speed character than can fly all of over the place. I would love to see more of that in multiple characters.

 

[ToonKake]

Anybody has a problem with Sonic should deal with it considering there are even worst characters

Spoiler

Oh hi, Link

Spoiler

Amen 2 dat Brudda i cannot STAND ROSALUMA & Villager -.-

 

[Megamang]

I haven't unlocked meteor bombs yet, so this is speculation, but i'd imagine they increase the need of link to be in control of his bombs throughout the match. That itself is a con, since a caught bomb when attempting to return to the edge, or getting hit at the wrong time when recovering with a bomb in hand, can lead to a pretty severe disadvantage situation that might cause an early edgeguarding kill. Of course, a good link isn't going to be giving you bombs to edgeguard him with, but it is a consideration that should be made.

Just food for thought, all based on the guess that meteor bombs cause a meteor spike lol. How severe is the spike, and does it always spike? What are the trade-offs, especially damage?

And moreover, what do you Link players think is the optimal set up for handling shiek? This discussion has piqued my interest in the character. Having a neutral that can compete with shiek is a very rare trait. How bad is his disadvantage? Because if the link is careful, he should be killing shiek before he dies (although this is easier said than done, I find myself running out of options and dying to bouncing fish in awkward situations pretty frequently when I do try the MU).

I presume he has the same problem in advantage vs shiek that everyone does, in that bouncing fish is an amazing get away tool that must also be respected since you can't just try and stop it and hope for the best like you can with, say, DHD or to some extent Lucario. But he can at least use this time to set up his projectile offense for when shiek is landing, which is better than characters that have to keep approaching due to needles.

I'm very intrigued, I really like it when characters have a random matchup which they perform well better than one would initially expect.

Can he zair confirm into anything? ZSS's zair nets a grab if you react fast enough, which is pretty incredible.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dafuq EL?

Even factoring blocking Needles by walking, how does Link even pressure Sheik?

Better question

Why does Link NEED to pressure?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Apparently it looks like I recorded it with a potato, but, that's something--

 

[A2ZOMG]

Better question

Why does Link NEED to pressure?

The Hylian shield only blocks projectiles with the assumption Link does nothing except stand/walk foward, so it's not like he simply disrespects Needles. More importantly, Link does not have an easy response to Sheik's mobility and safe on block pressure which converts to damaging combos and edgeguard setups. Link still can't exactly press buttons against Sheik's Needles which prevent him from zoning with arrows for that matter, so I would argue standoffs are not in his favor, especially since he has to guess to defend against Sheik's spacing and offensive options.

The main thing Link has on Sheik is his high damage per hit and relative freedom to pick any move to KO with when in Rage mode, but his OOS options are generally pretty slow, so yeah. I'm not seeing how he easily defends himself. He HAS to be proactive to keep Sheik out, so how does he get Sheik to play his game?

 

[Ulevo]

It's also worth noting that one problem Link has is that he needs to be in a dedicated zone or space in order to play the game he wants to play. And if he's playing against a character that can proactively and reactively enter and leave that zone, Link is going to have problems. Given Sheiks mobility, she's not going trouble doing this, and all it really takes is for Sheik to wait for Link to make the mistake of committing to a projectile when Sheik is within a given zone or space at the wrong time and Sheik gets a huge advantage off of it.

 

[Megamang]

And shiek's safety on shield is going to be increased by link's slow grab...

On the otherhand, can link always get a grab out of a powershield regardless of shiek's spacing? Because that would be a pretty nice use of the chain grab that might slightly offset its slow startup.

How long does link get tilt-fair-tilt-fair-fair-fair'd by shiek?

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's also worth noting that one problem Link has is that he needs to be in a dedicated zone or space in order to play the game he wants to play. And if he's playing against a character that can proactively and reactively enter and leave that zone, Link is going to have problems. Given Sheiks mobility, she's not going trouble doing this, and all it really takes is for Sheik to wait for Link to make the mistake of committing to a projectile when Sheik is within a given zone or space at the wrong time and Sheik gets a huge advantage off of it.

Link's best tools work in close and long range. Sucks for him that Needles are better than Arrows, and that his fastest ground moves are frame 7 and 8.

And shiek's safety on shield is going to be increased by link's slow grab...

On the otherhand, can link always get a grab out of a powershield regardless of shiek's spacing? Because that would be a pretty nice use of the chain grab that might slightly offset its slow startup.

How long does link get tilt-fair-tilt-fair-fair-fair'd by shiek?

Link's standing grab is frame 12-18, Sheik has a 2 frame Jab and only 10 frames of landing lag on N-air and F-air. Especially assuming like...3 frames of shieldstun (which still occurs on powershield), she doesn't exactly have a hard time interrupting his grab. Up-B or Powershield Jab are more likely to work in contrast but still have to be timed exceptionally well.

 

[David Viran]

Link's best tools work in close and long range. Sucks for him that Needles are better than Arrows, and that his fastest ground moves are frame 7 and 8.
Link's standing grab is frame 12-18, Sheik has a 2 frame Jab and only 10 frames of landing lag on N-air and F-air. Especially assuming like...3 frames of shieldstun (which still occurs on powershield), she doesn't exactly have a hard time interrupting his grab. Up-B or Powershield Jab are more likely to work in contrast but still have to be timed exceptionally well.

Power sheild still keeps the sheild stun? If he power sheilds he can do something faster than his grab.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Look, I'm personally indifferent to customs; but DON'T SAY that there aren't moves that are just direct buffs compared to default, because I could name a few on the top of my head.

I think the question we should be asking isn't which moves are direct upgrades, but which moves that have 'direct upgrades' still have uses in spite of these.

Regular DK UpB has multihit and a pretty superior ground game going for it. Let's assume the opponent gets good at reading the Kong Cyclone; player can switch back to default UpB and give the grounded version priority or take prior advantage of the multi-hits.

The Meta of the Meta: changing which customs you use when your opponent figures them out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Power sheild still keeps the sheild stun? If he power sheilds he can do something faster than his grab.

Shielding characters don't incur shieldstun on a powershield, but they do incur shield hitlag freeze (which is similar to regular hitlag freeze; when someone lands an attack, both characters freeze for a split-second before the victim flies off).

If you're being hit by a projectile, hitlag freeze only applies to the victim, because the user isn't "attached" to it, if that makes sense. This is why Mega Man D-Air is actually pretty safe on shield if used correctly.

 

[Luco]

he was at 80% and was still very far within his utilt

it looks like that could be done all the way to kill percents and maybe even chained into up smash



remind me again how G&W is low tier

becuase this **** seems ****ing absurd lmfao

jesus christ he can duck under a load of grabs and so many attacks it's ridiculous

Being third-lightest in the game (thanks ! <3) doesn't really do you any favours. A long while back @Kofu and I did some matches together and our matches were as volatile as the MU itself. G&W still has power and some great edge-guarding, but some of his aerial nerfs mean he's less stunning in neutral. That coupled with his ultra light weight means if you stay out of heavy disadvantage against him you're probably going to win. I have a feeling he has some crippling MUs amongst the higher tiers because of this too. What is this character meant to do against Sheik or Sonic? :/

But yeah he has some gimmicky stuff. :3

 

[Ffamran]

Being third-lightest in the game (thanks ! <3) doesn't really do you any favours. A long while back @Kofu and I did some matches together and our matches were as volatile as the MU itself. G&W still has power and some great edge-guarding, but some of his aerial nerfs mean he's less stunning in neutral. That coupled with his ultra light weight means if you stay out of heavy disadvantage against him you're probably going to win. I have a feeling he has some crippling MUs amongst the higher tiers because of this too. What is this character meant to do against Sheik or Sonic? :/

Watching GimR, I never felt like Mr. Game & Watch was bad, but he was hilarious, especially when he killed Snow with Uair's windbox, landed 9 Judges, and the whole 10% thing with U-throw to Uair. He's a glass cannon who literally gambles to win at times.

The disjoints on his aerials and pretty much the rest of his moveset and having a wacky Dair gives Mr. G&W an edge against other melee to risen rated characters. Little end lag and invincibility on Up Smash like the Mario Bros. just adds to his ability to punish. Hmm, can he do the same thing as them by covering a ledge with Up Smash?

But yeah he has some gimmicky stuff. :3

"Gimmicky"... GimR... I smell a conspiracy.

 

[Shaya]

Shielding characters don't incur shieldstun on a powershield, but they do incur shield hitlag freeze (which is similar to regular hitlag freeze; when someone lands an attack, both characters freeze for a split-second before the victim flies off).

If you're being hit by a projectile, hitlag freeze only applies to the victim, because the user isn't "attached" to it, if that makes sense. This is why Mega Man D-Air is actually pretty safe on shield if used correctly.

In Brawl, all power shields did was negate shield drop lag (7 frames). Shield stun and shield hit lag was still incurred by the defender.
I believe it's still the case in Smash4.

Link PSing Sheik fair gives him a dash away (so he can space her shielding properly or attacks) or immediate jab.

 

[meleebrawler]

In Brawl, all power shields did was negate shield drop lag (7 frames). Shield stun and shield hit lag was still incurred by the defender.
I believe it's still the case in Smash4.

Link PSing Sheik fair gives him a dash away (so he can space her shielding properly or attacks) or immediate jab.

Well it also prevents nearly all shield damage, which is pretty noticeable when it happens against Shield Breaker.

 

[Shaya]

Oh yeah, shield push back and shield damage too. I tend not to think about those that much
(because you'd usually be doing a dash punish anyway). Shield pushback negation means a lot more to a character like Luigi then most I usually dabble into.

 

[Luigi player]

I think there should be a few more doc users now that he got buffed. He was really fun to use before, but I've always felt his fair should've been stronger. With the patch he got some help now. He's really threatening with his fair... His bair is strong too and hits pretty low, his fair hits really hard in front of him, while his upB is a fast option that can also be reversed... He's basically a small scary wall (hits pretty hard behind and in front of him easily). I love to play some mindgames while jumping around and baiting rolls and approaches to punish with fair.

Now it's even more fun to play as him and I can only recommend it. ^_^ Though I guess he has to watch out for campy characters/players/stages, since he's still very slow on the ground.

 

[Nobie]

All this talk of Game & Watch's strengths and weaknesses and no one mentions just how mobile he is? He's basically Mario-tier in terms of ground and aerial movement, throws out meaty disjointed hitboxes in just about everything he does, and has a recovery that's both great for edge guarding and defending against edge guarding. While I don't know how good the crouch by itself is against Captain Falcon, I can see it being a threat when combined with G&W's overall zippiness.

 

[Shaya]

G&W is very good at out-buttoning people, but much like Brawl Peach or Marth in this game, if an opponent is only playing passively G&W doesn't really have solid answers.
But the thing I love[d] most about him is that ground mobility that allows him dominant footsies; but as a character so light without an approach it's a game he'll lose out in over the long run of a stock/match.

Doc definitely has a niche over Mario. No one's crouching his short hop back air and a full hop fast fall auto cancelled back air is ridiculously safe on every tall character's shield. His contrasts with Mario make him one of the funnest characters in the game to play.

 

[Nobie]

If someone mained both Mario and Dr. Mario, could they reasonably cover all matchups?